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Talonflame Discussion Thread

Discussion in '6th Gen' started by McDanger, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. McDanger

    McDanger Well-Known Member

    just to nitpick you forgot filter on mega aggron, ik from experience talonflame needs +2 to 2hko aggron without a high role tho thats without a LO
     
  2. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Ah right. I knew I was forgetting something. Thanks for catching that.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 148-175 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 177-211 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    In which case, yeah. It's a little bit more in Overheat's favor at first, but when we consider the Special Attack drop...

    -2 0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 90-107 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    It's actually not a guaranteed 2HKO, even assuming max damage both times. So realistically it'd end up being a 3HKO in both cases.
     
  3. Excitable Boy

    Excitable Boy is a metaphor

    Couldn't you just use Flare Blitz after the first Overheat to finish it? It's not guaranteed, but it's still a higher chance to 2HKO than Flare Blitzing twice.
     
  4. CircuitAngel

    CircuitAngel Well-Known Member

    Seems like a waste of a moveslot to carry both. personally I like:

    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz/Overheat
    -U-turn
    -Roost

    Personally I would not want to lose U-Turn or Roost for a second Fire move.
     
  5. Considering the fact that Flare Blitz receives a boost from Swords Dance, FB will be outdamaging Overheat in the long run.

    This means you have to run both fire moves, forgoing such great moveslots as swords dance, (lol) bulk up, roost, will-o-wisp, u-turn, and tailwind.

    Just my opinion, but talonflame needs flare blitz so that it doesn't have to split evs. If you can maximize attack and invest some speed without worrying about special attack, then you can increase your respectable bulk. Also, I'm surprised to see a non-boosting non-choiced talonflame. I'll have to try it out.
     
  6. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Indeed, this was noted in the first post. I didn't factor in SD or Choice Band for the sake of best-case-scenario argument in favor of Overheat.

    Ergo, Overheat is gimmicky and incredibly situational to the point where it's not worth the moveslot.

    As for a non-boosting, non-choiced Talonflame... I guess it's something I'd have to try for myself, but my gut instinct would be that the lack of power might be a bit of a deterrent. It may have two fantastic STABs, but base 81 attack does leave a lot to be desired. I'm too lazy to plug any threats in a calculator right now posting 20 minutes after waking up and 15 minutes before going to work will do that to you but I'd question its damage output.

    Then again, I suppose it'd be played like a more sustainable Choice Band set, favoring a hit-and-run style. Something that'd really have to be tried out.
     
  7. CircuitAngel

    CircuitAngel Well-Known Member

    For the record I agree with not splitting. I usually run it as a bit of pivot when they are expecting the Choiced Talonflame, Boosting could be put in instead of Roost, but I find that since most folks are expecting Choiced (from my experience at least) I have a turn or two to Roost off recoil damage.
     
  8. And it still proves the point. An extra ten base power isn't doing much on a weak Pokemon who can't afford to split EVs.

    This is also accurate.

    252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 208-246 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 330-390 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 116-138 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    It will very rarely OHKO Conkeldurr, who is weak to the attack. The Doublade one was more of a troll thing, but I guess that is more of a testament to Doublade's bulk.

    It could be fun, but that power is depressing.

    Alternatively, boosting could be put in place of U-turn. U-turn is a meh move on non-CB Talonflames, as it lacks the power to do real damage, and there are much better scouts out there with better defensive typings than Talonflame. It would also get rid of your boosts, a necessity on non-choiced talonflame.
     
  9. poix_the_yak

    poix_the_yak I stay noided

    What's a good number of speed EVs to put into a Life Orb set? I don't know much about Talonflame but I feel like going for the full 252 is unnecessary. Plus, it needs HP.
     
  10. There are three main benchmarks for Talonflame: 48 EVs allows it to outspeed neutral base 100s. 76 allows it to beat all +Speed base 90s. Finally, 164 is enough to beat positive base 100s.
     
  11. poix_the_yak

    poix_the_yak I stay noided

    Ok, sweet. And this is for Adamant talonflame, right?
     
    Steampunk likes this.
  12. The Federation

    The Federation Why Not?

    I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would make a difference in the positive base 100 department. What threats would be an issue at that speed tier?
     
  13. Mega Kangaskhan is the main reason I've been running more speed on my Talonflame lately. Like The Imposter mentioned, 164 Spe EVs lets you outpace Jolly Mega Kangaskhan and KO with Brave Bird before it can eliminate you with Sucker Punch.
     
  14. Eon Master

    Eon Master Born from the Flames

    If you run Jolly > Adamant, it only takes 48 EVs, leaving much more room for bulk, which is actually pretty nice. I tend to run 88 for Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack provided I'm running an SD set. The power drop is kind of lame, but I prefer to have the bulk when I can just boost to take care of that (and late game, the power drop doesn't hurt quite as much). Choice Band sets, I always run Adamant with 164 Speed for this exact reason, though.
     
  15. ghost_dog97

    ghost_dog97 the sweeper

    so are you saying that HP wouldn't matter on a talonflame? I agree on the adamant and speed invested ev's but who needs bulk when talonflame (especially banded) is an all-or-nothing kamikaze flaming pigeon? the HP ivs can also null the recoil damage too as it does 33% of the damage you did to your self (which would be a BANZAIIII moment if you were up against a blissey)
     
  16. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    It's not that Talonflame needs Bulk per say, but rather, if you've already maxed attack, and have enough speed to outrun all necessary threats, where else would you put the remaining EVs? After all, you don't necessarily need to be running 252 Speed EVs, so HP becomes the logical choice for your remaining EVs.
     
  17. ghost_dog97

    ghost_dog97 the sweeper

    thanks, you just confirmed my doubts.
    anyway, for a 3rd move that isn't STAB nor damage related, how about using taunt? it can stop stealth rock using pokemon in their tracks
     
  18. McDanger

    McDanger Well-Known Member

    the hp investment is so talonflame can use brave bird/flare blitz more as it has more hps to buffer the recoil as the damage is dependent on the damage you do
     
  19. Genesect4Prez

    Genesect4Prez OU All Day

    substitute
    bulk up
    brave bird
    roost
     
  20. Razor Shiftry

    Razor Shiftry Cynthia = Porn Star

    Personally I'd like to run enough speed EVs to be able to outrun mega absol sucker punch (ie outspeed base 115 speed) with Brave Bird.
     

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