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Talonflame Discussion Thread

Discussion in '6th Gen' started by McDanger, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Mega Absol's not really common enough to warrant it. Now, if it had Mega Lucario's usage, that'd be another story, but Mega Absol's usage isn't nearly high enough to make it a relevant threat. Plus, it's not like Absol can switch into Talonflame, and it has to be already Mega Evolved on a revenge kill given that on the turn of mega evolving, it uses the speed of the base form, not the Mega.

    Unreliable check at best. And I use the term check very loosely in this instance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  2. ccronin

    ccronin New Member

    Though rock types have been mentioned so far as a good counters, I'd like to point out barbaracle specifically. He can come on on a LO brave bird and easily survive, not even being 3hko'd in the long run while easily OHKOing with stone edge. I don't have the calcs, but I know for certain it is as I said. Although I have never had to worry about swords dance yet as no one I've played seems to be running it. But anyway, that's what I use for talonflame
     
  3. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 90-107 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 84.2% chance to 3HKO (Guaranteed after SR)

    +2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 139-164 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO (Guaranteed after SR)

    252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 104-123 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Those are the calcs, assuming Barbaracle is running 252 Atk / 252 Spe for a shell smash set. That said, as long as it's not switching into an already SD-boosted Brave Bird, Barbarcle can handle Talonflame without duress. Its issue is that outside of countering Talonflame, it's not the best Pokemon around given its typing is pretty poor defensively, and it's pretty slow. It's not bad by any means but it's kind of a niche Pokemon.
     
  4. ccronin

    ccronin New Member

    Ah I guess he does hit that 3hko mark, my bad. I usually run leftovers so I suppose I was a bit off, should of not been lazy and just did the calcs haha. You are right though, pretty niche outside of something like this.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention though, mine has max HP Evs with both defenses split.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
  5. Amaan

    Amaan Banned

    The Bulk Up set is actually quite underrated, after +1 Talonflame is no longer such a defensive liability.
     
  6. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Rock types still hard counter it as the 4x weakness makes the extra bulk of little consequence, and many of its other checks/counters are specially based (i.e., Rotom-W, Heatran). Bulk Up can be viable, and can help sponge those Extreme Speeds, but the sheer power of Swords Dance is hard to deny.
     
  7. ChloboShoka

    ChloboShoka Writer

    Are they really considering making Talonflame uber?
     
  8. Playful Latios

    Playful Latios @Soul Dew

    Talonflame can be played around. Like all Pokemon it has its share of checks and counters. Tyranitar actually works really good to counter Talonflame. U-Turn is the only thing that inflicts damage really on Tyranitar and that is a 3HKO. Rotom-W also walls it very nicely. It also doesn't have the greatest for defenses so any Pokemon that is reasonably bulky and survives Brave Bird should be able to KO it back. I would doubt they would seriously consider making Talonflame uber. Its good, but not broken.
     
  9. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Not to mention Stealth Rock remains a perpetual thorn in Talonflame's side due to the rocks stripping Talonflame of 50% of its HP, and the fact that Talonflame exists on a timer since Brave Bird and Flare Blitz both inflict recoil damage. Priority Roost can offset this to an extent, but Talonflame's got enough flaws to prevent itself from ever going uber.
     
  10. Clone™

    Clone™ Ded

    Talonflame? Ubers? Pls. He's powerful, don't get me wrong, but a base 81 attack and a hard counter in Geodude, he ain't going anywhere. Scrotom W is also a good counter, and he's #1 on the usage ladder.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
  11. quit mooching off of my discovery that geodude counters talonflame :(

    but yeah, talonflame isn't going anywhere. it has so many counters that any well-built team is likely going to have at least one of them. one could go the centralization route I guess, but rotom-w, heatran, and tyranitar most certainly have OU uses outside of countering birdy.
     
  12. Clone™

    Clone™ Ded

    Sorry, but I have to use it. Maybe Ill credit you next time Probably not tho

    Any rock type counters him in all honesty. I think even Terakion can sponge two Brave Birds (Correct me if Im wrong tho).
     
  13. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 171-202 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Standard Terrakion is 2HKO'ed by any Talonflame, so it can check Talonflame but not counter it.
     
  14. 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 171-202 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Just barely 2HKOs even with no form of boost, so it can only sponge one. Still, Brave Birds are supposed to do more.

    EDIT: draco plz quit ninjaing me :(
     
  15. Clone™

    Clone™ Ded

    Check it is. Like I said, I said, it wasnt sure. Ill rephrase my original statement:

    MOst Rock Types counter Talonflame, but a few are beaten.
     
  16. I've noticed that Talonflame's starting to see a decrease in usage. It's still good and a great wallbreaker+revenger, but the metagame really has adapted to its presence and brought it down a notch.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2014
  17. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    That's no surprise when it's walled by Corsola To be perfectly honest, the hyped up threats of Gen 6 seem to have fallen out of the extreme hype at this point. A lot of Talonflame's usage from a typical player comes down to spamming Brave Bird on anything that doesn't resist it, using Flare Blitz on anything else, U-turning on stuff that resists both, or Roosting the recoil damage away. It was only a matter of time before people adapted to that. Every other team using Rotom-W or even Rotom-H helps bring down its threat level too. And Stealth Rock, I guess...
     
  18. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    And every other rock type in existence, yeah. Hence the popularization of "Geodude counters Talonflame" ;)

    Yeah, with Rotom-W sitting at the top of the usage list for the past 3 months with a solid 20%-ish usage, and Tyranitar consistently being in the top 15 as well, it's not hard to find something to stop your standard Brave Bird spamming Talonflame in its tracks.

    ...Although with Rotom-H never really seeing above 2% usage, I'm not sure it played a huge role in the decrease of Talonflame usage, but I do get what you're saying, given it has the same bulk as Rotom-W and resists both of Talonflame's STABs as well. But I digress.

    Talonflame may be good at what it does (the most powerful priority in the game is no joke), but it's pretty predictable. Barring rare surprise moves like Will-o-Wisp or Tailwind, of course.
     
  19. This is actually what's happening more and more in upper level play, especially in tournaments. I've seen a lot of players using bulkier Talonflame sets that utilize key moves like Will-O-Wisp and Roost to tank hits and cripple opponents, while still being able to check a bunch of stuff with Brave Bird. It also makes a pretty great check to stuff like Mega Mawile, too, since it resists Mawile's STABs and can avoid Sucker Punch and burn it with Will-O-Wisp.
     
  20. I Like Pie!

    I Like Pie! Smile smile smile!

    252 HP Leftovers Talonflame can always switch in to a weak attacker, take in SR damage, and heal off with Roost and then set-up with Swords Dance.

    The sudden power of Banded Talonflame is awesome, but in my opinion, bulky Talonflame is the way to go. It can even be neutral to any Rotom's Volt Switch after a +1 Roost and take the hit quite well.
     

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