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Team Building Basics Guide

Discussion in '4th Gen RMT' started by Noctourniquet, Apr 27, 2010.

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  1. Noctourniquet

    Noctourniquet ∆∆∆

    Note: Before I start, it is likely that you are somewhat new to this section if you are reading this guide. If this is the case, then I strongly encourage you to read both the In-Game Team Rate Rules and the In-Game Team Rate Format Rules. Reading these two will help you enjoy IGRMT more, and you will get more out of it. This guide is not intended to help you build a Battle Tower team. A guide for this was made by Vaporeon4evr, and can be found here. If you are planning to rate or create a team, I suggest you also familiarize yourself with these guidelines, courtesy of Chaotic Tyrant. Anyway, with that out of the way...

    In-Game Team Building

    Many people come to Serebiiforums to request help with building a successful team for in-game use. While the general opinion is that an in-game team simply only requires high levels, a good one will need far more than this. It is important for someone who is seeking to create an excellent team to look into the workings of a game. They must carefully decide on moveset choices, Natures, Items, and EVs if they wish to use them.

    I often see in IGRMT many people asking for help on where to begin with a team. They want to do well, but don't know what to look for or why to use one option over another. In this guide, I hope to create a tool which the less experienced may use to help them get started in building good teams. I will be addressing the main points of team building, as well as exploring some game mechanics. So, here we go.

    What Am I Up Against?

    All of the in-game battles in Pokémon games have two players; one human player, yourself, and one computer controlled AI. As you may expect, the AI does not behave like a human player. You must keep the following points in mind when building your team. The main differences between a human player and the AI are as follows:

    The AI will not switch in many cases.
    While a human player will switch Pokémon as they need to, whether it be to bring in a Pokémon that can resist an opponent's attack, or bring in one to handle a tough situation, the AI will not identify these situations and so will not take advantage of their ability to switch out of them. You should try to exploit this by using a "safe" opponent to set up attacks, heal the remainder of your team, etc.

    The AI uses Hax to its advantage.
    For those of you who don't know, Hax refers to the unfair ability that the AI has to activate the secondary effects of moves. For example, Water Pulse's 20% confuse rate may seem more like 40% or even 50% for the AI. Additionally, moves like Double Team will seem to work for the opponent but not your and OHKO moves will seem far too accurate where the opposition is concerned. Moves like Substitute are excellent remedies for this issue, as they will block the added effects of moves so that you can't be affected by them. Alternatively, fast and powerful Sweepers can outspeed and KO the opposition before they can begin haxing you to death. Remember that moves like Aerial Ace are also far more viable in-game thanks to evasion modifiers.

    Which Moves Should I Be Using?

    Perhaps the most important part of any Pokémon is the moveset that you give it. Even the best Pokémon can play very poorly if you give it a moveset that doesn't work. Offensive movesets are more popular in-game because of how they can easily sweep through many opponents, so my main focus will be on them. Here are a number of things that you should do when deciding on an appropriate moveset for your Pokémon:

    Play with your Pokémon's best offensive stat.
    Look at your Pokémon's Base Stats on Serebii's Pokédex, or another location of your choice. You will notice that the majority of Pokémon have one stat that is superior to the other, and you should try to use this stat the most when you are choosing a moveset. A Breloom, for example, will benefit much more from using Seed Bomb, a physical move, than it will from Energy Ball which is Special. However, some Pokémon have multiple usable Base Stats, which are generally considered to be above Base 90. These Pokémon can add moves from both sides of the attacking spectrum to allow them to combat walls, which are Pokémon generally designed to take hits from one side of the spectrum, much more effectively.

    Get good coverage from your moves.
    No matter how powerful the moves in an offensive moveset, it will not work well unless you can hit many types for good damage. Here is an example of a moveset with poor coverage. The Pokémon used is an Electivire.

    • Thunderbolt
    • Thunderpunch
    • Thunder
    • Thundershock

    As you can see, this moveset contains four Electric type moves. This is a very bad idea for multiple reasons. Firstly, you are completely incapable of hitting Ground Types for any damage, meaning that they will almost always beat you. Secondly, you are only capable of hitting Water and Flying for Super Effective damage, meaning that your usefulness all-round is greatly reduced. And finally, all of the moves do the same thing; attempt to Paralyze the opponent. As you can see, it would be very easy to improve on this moveset with something like the following.

    • Thunderpunch
    • Cross Chop
    • Earthquake
    • Ice Punch

    These four moves together provide brilliant coverage, hitting 13/17 types for Super Effective damage. The moves serve a variety of purposes, and can handle multiple threats easily.

    Utilise your STAB.
    STAB is an acronym for Same Type Attack Bonus. Simply put, this is a mechanic that boosts an attack by 50% if it is of the type as the Pokémon using it. For example, take Earthquake. It is a Base 100 move, but if a Ground type was to use it, this would be elevated to Base 150. It is clear that it will benefit you in almost all cases to use one STAB move on each of your Pokémon.

    Setup moves.
    By this, I mean moves that will boost your stats over time to make you into a very potent threat. For example, Dragon Dance is a common used move because it boosts both your Speed and your Attack simultaneously, making you into a very dangerous Sweeper. You should remember that these moves exist, rather than just using four attacks on one set.

    Status inducing moves.
    Moves such as Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp will force Status Effects to be induced on your opponent. This will help you because it disadvantages your opponent massively, giving you an easier time setting up. On a more defensive moveset, you should consider using these sort of moves carefully, as they can massively benefit you or hinder you, depending on how appropriate your choice. Be aware that a very viable tactic in-game, however, is to simply destroy your opponent quickly. For this reason, it is generally recommended that you use very few Status-Inducing moves on your team, and on the bulkiest members if possible when there are few better options available.

    What not to use.
    While there are a great number of moves that are usable, some should be avoided as much as possible. They are as follows.

    Hyper Beam and Hyper Beam-esque moves.
    These moves are incredibly powerful, but they leave you completely immobile next turn. You cannot use items, you cannot switch, and you cannot attack during this time. In virtually every case, you can use two turns more productively, and so these moves should always be avoided. The moves are Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Rock Wrecker, and Roar of Time. Additionally, First Turn charge moves should be avoided for the same reason. They are Dive, Dig, Fly, Razor Wind, Sky Attack, Skull Bash, Solarbeam, and Shadow Force. Focus Punch is not one of these moves.

    OHKO Moves.
    Their accuracy is simply too low when the AI's Hax is factored in. You can use these moveslots with much more reliable moves. The OHKO moves are Horn Drill, Guillotine, Fissure, and Sheer Cold.

    Certain HM Moves
    With the exception of Surf and Waterfall, the HM moves are either extremely poor or outclassed. Avoid them for this simple reason, and get what is referred to as an "HM Slave" instead, which is a Pokémon that knows four HM moves for field use only.

    Which Natures Should I use?

    Natures have a great bearing on what your Pokémon is good or bad at. They can boost one of your stats and reduce another by 10% each, or leave them alone completely.

    Commonly used Natures
    Here are some commonly used Natures and reasons why they are used often.

    Jolly ~ This is a very good Nature for a Physical Sweeper. It boosts your Spe, but lowers your SpAtk.
    Timid ~ This is a very good Nature for a Special Sweeper. It boosts your Spe, but lowers your Atk.
    Adamant ~ This is a very good Nature for a powerful Physical Attacker. It boosts your Atk, but lowers your SpAtk.
    Modest ~ This is a very good Nature for a powerful Special Attacker. It boosts your SpAtk, but lowers your Atk.
    Bold ~ This is a very good Nature for a Pokémon that focuses on its Def alongside Special Attack moves. It boosts your Def, but lowers your Atk.
    Impish ~ This is a very good Nature for a Pokémon that focuses on its Def alongside Physical Attack moves. It boosts your Def, but lowers your SpAtk.
    Calm ~ This is a very good Nature for a Pokémon that focuses on its SpDef alongside Special Attack moves. It boosts your SpDef, but lowers your Atk.
    Careful ~ This is a very good Nature for a Pokémon that focuses on its SpDef alongside Physical Attack moves. It boosts your SpDef, but lowers your SpAtk.

    Which Items Should I Use?

    In the Pokémon games, there is a large variety of items available to you. They can serve many different purposes and are useful in many different situations. It is important to be able to recognize when an item is appropriate for use, and when it will hinder your Pokémon.

    Offensive Items.
    Some items will boost your attacking power, accuracy, or speed. These are offensive items. They are commonly used on Pokémon that are designed to attack well rather than ones that need more defense. Such items include:

    Life Orb.[​IMG]
    This is an item that boosts the power of all of your moves by an impressive 30%. However, you will lose 10% of your health every turn. It is a popular item for Pokémon that were designed to hit extremely fast and hard, or were perhaps lacking originally in attacking prowess. AgiliPoleon, which is simply an Empoleon that uses Agility, uses this item often to boost its sweeping potential greatly.

    Choice Band / Specs.[​IMG][​IMG]
    These two item boost Physical and Special attacks respectively by 50%. However, only one move out of four may be used. For this reason, it is clear why you should avoid using more than one of these in general on a single team, although you can get away with two if you have a good backup plan. Many people prefer not to use them at all due to how important it is to beat the opponent quickly, which is made difficult by Choice Items.

    Choice Scarf.[​IMG]
    Like the Band and Specs, this item allows only one move to be used until switching out. However, this item applies to Speed rather than Atk or SpAtk. It is a common sight on Pokémon with great attacking abilities, but lacking in Speed. Heatran is an excellent example of how to use the item. As with the other Choice Items, be very cautious about using this one and only do so if you feel it fits your team very well.

    Muscle Band / Wise Glasses.[​IMG][​IMG]
    These are two far more straightforward items. They boost the power of Physical and Special attacks respectively by 10%, but do not hinder you in any way. They are often used on Pokémon that want to deal out good damage, but do not need the Life Orb's full 30% boost or can't handle its recoil and prefer the flexibility of not being Choiced. Alakazam, for example, is a good Wise Glasses user because of its frailty.

    Defensive Items.
    Like with offensive items, there are also a variety of Defensive times that complement their holders. They often provide steady recovery, or add in effects that wouldn't normally be present, such as resistance to attacks.

    Perhaps the most commonly used item, many teams will have three or even four uses of this excellent item. It simply recovers 6% of your total health every turn. While this may not seem like very much at first glance, it will take your Pokémon only four turns to recover the amount of health lost when creating a Substitute (± 1 HP), and around 17 turns to completely recover all of your health. It is an extremely valuable item for setting up and stalling, making your Pokémon much harder to take out.

    Chesto Berry[​IMG]
    A much less common sight, this item will immediately restore you should your Pokémon go to sleep. It works great with Pokémon that rely on Rest to recover all of their health, especially if they lack Sleep Talk, such as certain Swampert variants (Rest / Curse / Return / Waterfall is the one that I had in mind). However, be sure not to use this on a Sleep Talk set because that stops your set from functioning correctly. Be aware that this item is a one-time use under normal battle conditions.

    Focus Sash[​IMG]
    Another common item, and for very good reason. When holding this item, your Pokémon cannot be beaten by a single move. This basically guarantees that you will be able to make at least one move yourself, be it crippling the opponent with status, inducing weather, or boosting your stats for a short sweep. Be aware that this item is a one-time use under normal battle conditions.

    "Resistance" Berries.[​IMG]
    These special berries reduce the damage taken from a super effective move. They are commonly seen on Pokémon that are extremely threatened by a particular type. Salamence holding a Yache berry, which reduces Ice Damage for example, is a very common choice because it allows it to tackle Ice Types more efficiently. Be aware that these items are one-time uses under normal battle conditions.
    Occa = Fire
    Passho = Water
    Wacan = Electric
    Rindo = Grass
    Yache = Ice
    Chople = Fighting
    Keiba = Poison
    Shuca = Ground
    Coba = Flying
    Papaya = Psychic
    Tanga = Bug
    Charti = Rock
    Kasib = Ghost
    Haban = Dragon
    Colbur = Dark
    Babri = Steel
    Clilan = Normal


    Part 2. Or, just scroll down the page.
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
  2. Noctourniquet

    Noctourniquet ∆∆∆

    Well, here's the second part of the guide. It looks at some of the more complex parts of Team Building, and some members may not find this aspect completely necessary. It also contains a few example movesets, and if I can find one to use, it will also contain a link to a well-constructed team. If I can't find one, then I'll just make it myself. Enjoy.

    What Are EVs and IVs?

    EVs and IVs are perhaps the most complex part of creating an excellent Pokémon team, and make the difference between good and great. If you do not like the more technical side of Pokémon, then you need not read this section. However, skipping this will greatly hinder your ability to successfully build and rate teams.

    How do EVs work?
    EVs are values that are hidden within the game, and normal players are not meant to know about. They are gained by defeating or catching other Pokémon. The type of EV and number of EVs obtained vary depending on which Pokémon is defeated. Check Serebii.net's Pokédex to see which EVs are gained from which Pokémon.

    A single Pokémon can gain a total of 510 EVs, with up to 255 in each stat. Each 4 EVs gained translate to 1 stat point gained by Level 100. Thus, you can gain up to 63 points in a single stat by Level 100 through the method of EV Training as 255/4 = 63.75, which is rounded down.

    How do IVs work?
    IVs, like EVs, are hidden values within the game. Unlike EVs, however, they are not controllable. Each Pokémon is created with a total of 6 IVs, one for each stat. The IVs range from 1-31, with 31 being the best. At Level 100, a Pokémon with 31 IVs in a stat will have 30 more points than one with 1 IV in the stat. The combination of IVs that your Pokémon has also decides the strength and type of its Hidden Power move, which you can use if you know how to get the needed IVs.

    Allocation of EVs.

    The following does not always work with competitive. There is a competitive Ev Guide found in CRMT which you should refer to if you want to play competitively.

    Many people struggle when it comes to allocating EVs, because they do not know where to start or why they should allocate EVs into certain stats. When allocating EVs, it is important that you consider what you want your Pokémon to be able to do, and how you can design it to do this job efficiently. Here are some common techniques applied to Pokémon of different roles.

    What is the relevance of 252?
    Very often, people will use 252 EVs in a stat when creating an EV Spread. Occasionally, confusion is created because the EVs for a single stat Max at 255, so at first glance, it would be logical to use 255 EVs rather than 252. However, when applying maths, it becomes clear why using 255 is wasteful. Remember the following concepts of EVs;

    ~ 1 stat point is gained for every 4 EVs.
    ~ The number of stat points gained can be determined by dividing the number of invested EVs by 4. For example, 16 EVs = 4 stat points because 16/4 = 4.
    ~ If the number of invested EVs is not a multiple of 4, then the result is rounded down. For example, 15 EVs = 3 stat points because 15/3 = 3.75, which is 3 when rounded down.

    Now, plug in the numbers 252 and 255 to determine how much they will gain each. 252/4 = 63, and so 63 stat points will be gained. 255/4 = 63.75, which is rounded down, and so 63 stat points will still be gained. Therefore, you are wasting 3 EVs by investing 255 rather than 252.

    How should I EV a fully offensive Pokémon?


    An offensive Pokémon is a Pokémon designed to take out many opponents very quickly with attacks that are normally STAB Boosted. On occasion, they will use Attack, Special Attack, or Speed boosting moves such as Dragon Dance, and I will address such Pokémon separately.

    Firstly, we'll look at the non-boosting Sweepers. These generally run a straightforward set of four attacking moves along with a Life Orb, or similar item. These Pokémon most commonly run EV Spreads of 4 HP / 252 Atk or SpAtk / 252 Spe. The reasoning behind this is simple; most Sweepers will want to be as fast and as powerful as they possibly can, and so maxing your Atk or SpAtk and Spe is logical and acceptable.

    Speed boosting Sweepers can be given a different approach by removing some unnecessary EVs from Spe and re-investing them into HP or defensive stats. But this is where the problems arise. How many EVs should be removed, and why should they be removed? When EVing a Speed Booster, it is critical to look at what you will be able to outspeed after your boosts. Remember how the Stat Boost Stages work.

    ~ After one boost, you will have increased your stat to 150% or 1.5x the original.
    ~ After two boosts, you will have increased your stat to 200% or 2x the original.
    ~ After three boosts, you will have increased your stat to 250% or 2.5x the original.
    ~ After four boosts, you will have increased your stat to 300% or 3x the original.
    ~ After five boosts, you will have increased your stat to 350% or 3.5x the original.
    ~ After six boosts, you will have increased your stat to 400% or 4x the original.

    Now, we know how much to increase our Spe by when calculating how many EVs to invest. But why are we calculating this? Why should we use fewer than 252 Spe EVs? Well, most of the time, you will be wasting EVs if you run Maximum because you will not be meeting any specific targets. To explain this fully, I'll use an example. This is an Empoleon carrying the move Agility, which boosts your Spe by two stages, or to 200%.

    4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe, Timid.

    This is a standard sweeper set, but not on a standard Sweeper. Let's take a look at the actual stats of this Empoleon after using Agility. This Empoleon maximises its Speed, which gives it an actual stat of 240. Now, we double this because we are calculating how fast the Empoleon will be after using Agility, giving it a Speed stat of 480. This might seem great, but now consider, do you need 480 Spe? It's extremely fast, but does it need to be that fast? Let's take a look at the fastest serious threat, Electrode. Assuming that it is running Max Speed, which it often does, it will have a Speed stat of 416. So, you are actually outspeeding it by whole 64 points when you need only outspeed it by 1 point. To fix this, you need to find what the smallest whole number which, when doubled, will be higher than 416. You can do this by adding 1 to 416, to reach your target speed, then dividing 417 by 2 and rounding up. This gives you 209. So, Ceiling(416+1)/2 = 209, where ceiling indicates that the result should be changed to the nearest whole number that is higher than your result. This means that your Empoleon will need only run 209 Spe instead of 240. This is achievable by running only 212 Spe EVs, and you don't even need a Timid Nature, meaning that your Empoleon can switch to Modest to hit harder. As a Sweeper, it will need to be hitting as well as it can, so 252 EVs can be put into SpAtk. Finally, the remaining 44 EVs are dumped into HP for durability. You final spread is 44 HP / 252 SpAtk / 212 Spe, Modest.

    How should I EV a fully defensive Pokémon?

    For this part, I'm doing the complete opposite of before by assuming a totally defensive Pokémon rather than totally offensive. As this is not competitive, you do not need to EV to survive attacks from certain threats, but rather you should work on optimising your Defences. There are three different styles; Max HP + Equal Defence, Max HP + Concentrate on one Defence, or use Low HP + Concentrate heavily on both Defences. You should vary which style you use with which Pokémon you are EVing.

    Firstly, the Max HP + Equal Defences style. Pokémon with fairly all-round Defensive Stats will want to employ this style, as they will benefit most from being able to take hits from everything evenly. Firstly, with these Pokémon, you should always Max your HP first because this is the most important defensive stat. 252 EVs can be dropped into it straight away. Now, you should tailor your remaining EVs so that they meet in the middle. Each Pokémon will need to be EVd differently here, so I'll use an example of one. Here's an Umbreon;

    252 HP / x Def / x SpDef, x Nature.

    Now, we already have Max HP invested because Umbreon has a mediocre HP in relation to its other Defences. The Def, SpDef, and Nature will come together once we do a little maths and find out how to even them out. Firstly, let's look at Umbreon's Base Stats for Def and SpDef. They are 110 and 130 respectively. The actual stats are 256 Def / 296 SpDef. We will want to start by evening these out, so I will give it a +Def Nature, Impish in this case. Now, my actual Def comes in at 281 points. To make this up to the current target, 296, I will need to invest 56 Def EVs. So, we now have an EV Spread of 252 HP / 56 Def / x SpDef, Impish. By subtracting 252 and 56 from 510, which is the total number of EVs that can be used, I have 202 EVs left to work with. I divide this by 2 to find out how many can be allocated into each stat, and get 101, which can be changed to 100 which is the nearest multiple of 4. Now, I put 100 EVs into both Def and SpDef, giving me actual stats of 324 Def / 321 SpDef. Because of deeper game mechanics, which I will not explain now, the Def has come out higher so I can tweak my EVs to make them as equal as possible. My final spread is 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 SpDef, Impish.

    Now for the next style. It's far simpler than the previous one because it is easily to recognise where it is needed, and employ it. All you need to do is, when EVing a Pokémon that has a far higher Def or SpDef that SpDef or Def respectively, you should simply run a 4 / 252 / 252 spread in order to help remedy the lower Defensive stat. Steelix, for example, has an excellent Def but poorer SpDef, and so running 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef, Careful would be suitable. The only difficulties occur when a Pokémon is using a move that boosts its Def or SpDef, such as Swampert with Curse. As Curse boost Def, it would be appropriate to invest in SpDef here because that stat is being left alone, so again, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef, Careful is an appropriate spread to use.

    Finally, the third style of investing only slightly in HP and investing heavily in your Defences instead. This may seem to be a contradiction, as I mentioned earlier that HP is the most valuable Defensive stat, but if your Base HP is phonemically high already, then investing in it actually has very little effect on the damage taken. A perfect example to be used would be Blissey.

    4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpDef, Calm.

    Blissey has a Base HP of 255, which is the highest in the game. Therefore, investing heavily into HP would be unwise because she has a huge amount of it anyway. A more appropriate and beneficial method to use would be to run a 4 / 252 / 252 spread, with the 252s being your Defences. This will allow you to take more hits from both sides of the attacking spectrum rather than having an enormous HP, but lacking the defences to successfully back it up.

    Is this all I need to know about EVs?

    No, unfortunately not. As this is only a basics guide, I have only covered the basics of how to EV. I have not covered hybrid spreads, combining Offence and Defence. I have not covered Jump Points or Leftovers Recovery points. I have not covered even HP vs odd HP, and I have not covered TrickScarf Spreads. This is because none of these are particularly simple, and you will pick them up over time if you watch the best raters carefully and contact them for information. What I have given you to work with here is a solid base. Build on it.


    There are some resources that I have found to be particularly helpful in my time playing Pokémon. Here are some of them.

    The Serebii.net Pokédex, The Serebii.net Attackdex, and The Serebii.net Itemdex. Where would we be without Serebii? My automatic reference for Pokémon facts when I need to look something up.

    Serebii.net's Moveset Calculator. If you want a Pokémon that can learn certain moves, but can't find it, then try searching using this ingenious tool. Excellent if you get stuck with finding a member with a suitable moveset.

    Serebii.net's IV Calculator. The best IV Calculator I've ever used. It gives informative and reliable readouts, and also calculates your Hidden Power's Type and Damage. A highly valuable tool.

    Marriland's Team Builder. This is one of my favourite tools. You input your Pokémon, and it immediately shows you all of your strengths and weaknesses, so you can adjust the Pokémon in your team as needed.

    Smogon's Pokémon Analyses. For those of you who don't know, Smogon is a website which has written analyses for each Pokémon. I go there on occasion for basic moveset guidance when I am looking for good move ideas, although I rarely use it anymore. All of the information at Smogon is highly competitively-based. You will need to adapt much of it for in-game purposes.

    Smogon's Damage Calculator. Of all the damage calculators that I have tried, this one outclasses them all. It provides a fully featured, easy to use tool for calculating stats and damage. All of my EV Calculations and Damage percentages come from this calculator.

    Salavoir55 & Rhys29's EV Guide. A competitive EV Guide from CRMT made by Salavoir55 and Rhys29, two highly experienced battlers. The guide is competitively based, but extremely comprehensive when compared to my one. Worth a look if you want to explore EVs further.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  3. Bossk

    Bossk Like a champ.

    I think that you should include what sweepers, tanks, walls, ect. are. Just give a description and maybe an example or two. Also explain type synergy, how to make a team, ect.
  4. Noctourniquet

    Noctourniquet ∆∆∆

    ^ Yea, I was going to include the "Making a Team" thing in the worked examples section. Eon might be providing the Type Synergy part, but otherwise, I'll get that done. And yea, it's a good idea with the terminology stuff. I'll get that in somewhere, too.
  5. SapphireL

    SapphireL Lydia

    Looks good so far.

  6. Eon Master

    Eon Master Born from the Flames

    As TBR said, I'll be providing a guide on cohesive Team Synergy, including strategies and how to make your team fit into them. It's going to be a very extensive guide, so it's going to take me at least a week to finish.
  7. [GS]

    [GS] Staring at my phone

    Oh, you wrote "Handily" under the Muscle Band/Wise
    Glasses section. It should be handle.
  8. Commander L. Halsti

    Commander L. Halsti Toxin Squad Cmdr.

    I disagree with this. I think Strength, Rock Climb, and especially Fly also have good usage on Pokemon due to power and accuracy being very good. My Pokemon regularly utilize all these as attacking moves.
    Otherwise, this guide is pretty well constructed.
  9. Eon Master

    Eon Master Born from the Flames

    Strength is an Ok move, but it's outclassed by Return 100% of the time. Rock Climb is lol, there's no reason to use it. As for Fly, you obviously didn't read the part where TBR said not to use two-turn moves.

    So, sorry, but no.
  10. Commander L. Halsti

    Commander L. Halsti Toxin Squad Cmdr.

    Return is fine if you just have one Normal or Normal/Flying Pokemon. But if you have a Normal and Normal/Flying Pokemon, one won't be able to have it, because it's a single TM. Also, Return won't get fully powerful immediately.
    Fly is the best Physical STAB for a lot of Flying Pokemon, because Brave Bird isn't as widely available, and carries recoil, while Fly actually shields from damage, on the first turn.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  11. Noctourniquet

    Noctourniquet ∆∆∆

    It is possible to obtain multiple copies of Return's TM in the games fairly easily.

    Pretty much every physical Flying Type that has a use for a Flying move has a superior alternative. The Special ones wouldn't use Fly anyway.
  12. Commander L. Halsti

    Commander L. Halsti Toxin Squad Cmdr.

    You're right on Return, now that I think of it, but giving Strength to an HM slave is still a waste. Same with Fly, 90 base power is not to be overlooked. Brave Bird's recoil can rack up, and that's bad. Aerial Ace may not get a KO where Fly can. The only attacking Flying type move I've ever seriously used is Fly, and it was with great success. In competitive battles, it maybe isn't the best, but in game, it is perhaps the most useful move, or tied with Surf.
    And Rock Climb-put it on a Normal Pokemon like Tauros, and it will be very dangerous. The lesser accuracy is a put-off, though.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  13. Noctourniquet

    Noctourniquet ∆∆∆

    ^ While it is true that Brave Bird's Recoil is troublesome, most of its main users like Staraptor aren't massively durable anyway, and so are great for doing heavy damage fast rather than wasting time with Fly. And pretty much all Flying types can use Roost to heal themselves, too. Don't forget that Drill Peck is also a common option without any recoil.

    I fail to see why Rock Climb is better than Return on a Tauros. The confusion chance is all that it has going for it, which isn't a sufficient reason for drops in both power and accuracy.
  14. Eon Master

    Eon Master Born from the Flames

    What do you think the point of an HM slave is if not to be a waste of space? Simple, it's purpouse is to carry HM's so the rest of your team won't have to.

    Drill Peck is Base 80. Brave Bird's is easily solved on many Flying types, thanks to the existance of Roost. Aerial Ace is generally better than fly because it does more damage in the two turns than Fly does.

    Aerial Ace BP over two turns: 60 + 60 = 120 BP

    Fly BP over two turns: 0 + 90 = 90 BP

    Ergo, Aerial Ace, or even Wing Attack, is a better choice than Fly. Also, if the only flying type move you've ever used is Fly, how would you know it's the best?

    Return has 102 Base Power, far stronger than Rock Climb. Body Slam has 85 BP, with a 30% Paralysis chance. Rock Climb is inferior no matter how you look at it.

    EDIT: TBR, you little ninja bunny...
  15. Commander L. Halsti

    Commander L. Halsti Toxin Squad Cmdr.

    TBR's post gives a hint why Fly, and not BB. I don't use frail birds gladly. My favorite is Skarmory, and I wouldn't want any recoil to ruin me while using that, or any other choice of mine.
    Roost is dangerous, because it can cause problems due to loss of the Flying type. I've had problems with it, so I deem it an unsafe healing method, and Brave Bird goes out of the window, together with it.
    Fly gives me almost full immunity to damage on the first turn, which I, as a defensive player, value highly.
    And Aerial Ace-the TM for it is not available before you get Fly in HG/SS, at least I don't have it. I don't see why recommend players to not use Fly as a valuable move.
    Rock Climb-well, it worked well for me in Sinnoh, it could for others, too. Return won't get powerful immediately. Though, I can somehow accept that RC isn't the best HM.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  16. [GS]

    [GS] Staring at my phone

    Well, if you don't agree, then just don't take the advice.

    This thread doesn't need to be a flame war.
  17. Commander L. Halsti

    Commander L. Halsti Toxin Squad Cmdr.

    No, it's not a flame war, just I'm trying to justify the use of some other HM-s in combat.
  18. Eon Master

    Eon Master Born from the Flames

    ^There is no justification. A lot of ingame players have access to multiple TM's of any type, and most of them know how to use their moves so as not to get stuck in a bad spot. HM moves are unjustifiable.
  19. bleeding-chocobo

    bleeding-chocobo On Cloud Nine

    I must agree about Fly. I learned about not to use it on a main team member the hard way. -_- Let's just say Lucian's Gallade kept scoring a critical hit w/ Stone Edge and I kept missing w/ Fly.
  20. Shine

    Shine Psyched Up Staff Member Moderator

    Nice guide, I like it - though I didn't expect SapphireL to sticky it, since she rarely appear nowadays xD
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