Team Lum Berry

[Salavoir55]

Stall team.

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 236 HP/156 Def/80 Spd/36 SDef
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Iron Head
- Trick
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch/U-Turn/Fire Punch

Leads, sets up Stealth Rock, and prevents the "last Pokemon" (such as CMCune and Curselax) from sweeping the team via TrickScarf. I'm using Ice Punch right now to "revenge kill" dragons. I'm considering having U-Turn or Fire Punch so that this isn't destroyed by Magnezone. The EVs give it enough to outspeed Salamence after a DD (if it uses 280 Spd). I believe the Smogon analysis said for DD Mence to run 252 Spd EVs, so I may need to change this (I'll look it up later). HP EVs reach a max lefties point for after I Trick the Scarf off. The leftover EVs are in SDef, and the Def EVs survive something I think, but I don't remember what. Better EVs would be appreciated, but I do want it bulky. Originally Nidoqueen.

Heracross (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 204 HP/56 Atk/180 Def/68 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Megahorn
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Brick Break

My main special wall is T-tar, so I needed a special fighting resist. This also helps with Boah somewhat. Provides decent physical offense despite not having any investment. Max lefties HP, enough to outspeed Adamant Tar, enough defense to switch-in on CB Stone Edge from tar and +2 from Lucario. The rest is in Attack up to a jump point. Beats both threats. I still prefer Focus Punch on Restalk Hera, but Brick Break is necessary in this case.

Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 60 HP/252 Def/188 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Surf
- Protect
- Toxic

Provides Wish support and stops Ape. It also uses Toxic because I prefer the precision of Toxic rather than Toxic Spikes. Toxic catches Pokemon like LO Suicune and Zapdos on the switch-in. Lots of SDef because this team could use it despite having T-Tar.

Skarmory (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP/216 Def/16 Spd/24 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird/Drill Peck/Counter

Shed Shell because of Magnezone's popularity. It Spikes and phazes. Counter allows it to beat Kingdra locked into Outrage along with other stuff not expecting it. It still has a lot of Defense because Counter is more of a side thing than its main job. The EV spread might be able to use some work. I'll find a better one when I get time, or someone can suggest a better one. Brave Bird and Drill Peck should be obvious. Counter isn't blocked by Taunt, so I see it as a somewhat viable option. I can always Whirlwind if something tries to set up while expecting the Counter. Thoughts on this? Also helps with Yanmega. Originally Forretress.

Rotom-h @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/176 Def/80 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Overheat
- Discharge
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Light Screen
- Reflect

It blocks spin and counters Gyarados and certain Scizor. Sets up Reflect too. I'm using HP [Ice] right now to help against Salamence. If this isn't a good idea I'll use Light Screen. I dislike how this is Toxic weak. I never like my spin blockers to be Toxic weak. Originally Perish Song Mismagius.

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 236 HP/56 Def/216 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch/Rock Slide

Special Wall. I tried Cursetalk out for a little, but then I decided to test DDtalk. I haven't had time to complete the test to my satisfaction, so DD is still there. DD is a side thing, so there's no point in investing in speed. Thoughts? Topical poster said something about maxing SDef, so I'm thinking about doing that seeing how the 56 Def don't seem to be doing much anyways. Also, 236 / 252 makes Timid LO Gengar's Focus Blast do up to 97% max instead of having a chance of OHKOing.

I'm considering Roar > DD to force residual damage on the special end. Actually, I'm finding Special Wall T-tar to be a disapointment, so I might replace it altogether if there is no option that can be found with it. Also thinking about making this an all out DD-Tar or mix DDtar with Flamethrower but with EV investment in Special Defense. It won't help against Will-O-Wisp Rotom then though. Considering Rock Slide > Crunch as well because of its superior coverage.


I was going to scrap this team and try again, but I decided to post it just in case anyone could find a way to fix it (I realize I probably won't get many rates, but I usually don't anyways). Anyways, I tried to make this team so that it was not weak to residual damage that way I wouldn't have to waste a turn on Rapid Spin if I faced another Stall team. Hence no Stealth Rock weak Pokemon. The trouble now is Spikes and T-Spikes (more so Spikes). I used to have Nidoqueen on this team to absorb T-Spikes, by the way.

I also wanted to get both Screens on this team but at least having Reflect now is great. I could go LS > [Ice] on Rotom, but I feel I need whatever protection I can get against Salamence. I'm considering Drapion as a different Toxic Spikes absorber, and I prefer Perish Song to get rid of the last Pokemon to TrickScarf. I also want to make it so that Rotom is a Restalker or that I have a Cleric to protect it from Toxic.

I am also debating whether Spikes + Spin Blocker is so necessary and whether I should do without them, sticking with Stealth Rock and Toxic, which would open up quite a few slots although it might require even more of a team transformation. I really want Rapid Spin too if I don't have a T-Spikes absorber (although it would be beneficial either way). However, Forretress > Skarmory means I have no phazer. I could go Heatran > Jirachi to get Rocks + Roar, but then I can't take out the last Pokemon effectively.

LO Outrage Mence weak, and some special attackers who have a super-effective on T-tar weak. The rest of my team helps somewhat with this latter weak now much better.

Rate please.

 

[Nolan Bentley]

Tar is no special wall seeing as he has so many weeknesses.

 

[groovitational snubbul]

Tar is no special wall seeing as he has so many weaknesses.

t-tar is a special wall (of sorts) as he has great health decent spdef and sand stream which gives him a spdef boost of X1.5

roar over DD for t-tar would make a pysudo rest talk suicune which would work as it would stack the entry hazard damage, but you are probably better off using a suicune

rest
sleep talk
roar
surf

or something along these lines

 

[Kingdrom]

Tar is no special wall seeing as he has so many weeknesses.

Please think before you post. Tyranitar has insane special defense, and neutral attacks don't even stand a chance at killing Tyranitar from the special side. With Leftovers, Tyranitar faces a 7HKO with leftovers from Jolteon's max special attack Thunderbolt. Vaporeon cannot 3HKO this Tyranitar with Surf, either, which obviously is super-effective against Tyranitar.


Nidoqueen seems a little like bait for other Suicide leads like Azelf. While Nidoqueen is useful on stallish teams in general- it counters Lucario and Scizor quite well- it shouldn't be the one to lead. But in general, it looks fine. With a set like that though, Heatran does a much better job, considering it can phaze and use Stealth Rock also. Alternatively, you could use a TrickScarf Jirachi with Stealth Rock, which works wonders as a lead, although a little common. Trick / SR / Iron Head / Earthquake for the moves. This would also satisfy your need for a Trick user.

Tbh there aren't really many special-fighting moves besides Focus Blast, which Heracross should take well anyway. For defensive Hera, this is what I would use:

Heracross @ Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
Ev's: 204 Hp / 56 Atk / 180 Def / 68 Spe iirc
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Megahorn
-Brick Break / Stone Edge

It works much like your set, but this is a reliable counter to Tyranitar, Lucario, and Breloom to some extent. Heracross is Ev'ed defensively to survive a CBTar Stone Edge and further Sandstorm damage, as well as a +2 Lucario Stone Edge. The spread also yields maximum leftovers recovery. The 68 Speed Ev's are to outspeed Scizor and max speed Tyranitar, and the rest is put in attack up to a bonus point. I believe Rhys29 is fond of my set. Brick Break will destroy the opponents screens even if used against a Ghost.

There isn't much going for Mismagius if you don't make him fast. Rotom-H can set up dual-screens for your Tyranitar and deal with any other issues you may have. Blue Ace's standard spread works fine. You may find the lack of recovery to be troublesome, but the dual-screens will go a long way towards boosting your defense.

You may find Skarmory as a better steel resist than Forretress, due to being able to deal with Yanmega well. In addition, you could choose to use it as either a phazer or Taunter with minimal special defense investment. The ability for Skarmory to Roost off it's troubles also helps. However, this doesn't do much to help you in the way of Timid LO Gengar, which is pretty rare anyways (less than 1/4 of all gengars) and is easily dealt with by the replacement Jirachi / Heatran.

Vaporeon looks fine. You may want to max HP for dealing with Gyarados and Salamence, although Gyarados is countered easily by Rotom. If special defense is of worry, use 60 Hp / 252 Def /196 Sp. Def and a Bold nature, which will ensure a 3HKO from non-LO Gengar Thunderbolt. It also allows you to outstall Rotoms who don't use Rest / Sleep Talk. If you do this, add Protect over Hp Electric, since you don't need it to counter Gyarados anymore.

DD Tyranitar has some promise. Using Rest / Sleep Talk means that with one attack, you'll be walled by Scizor and Lucario regardless of what you do. The only thing to do to beat Scizor is to go with a mix DD set with Flamethrower or to pile all your Ev's into Attack and use a slow, minimally bulky DD set. You have a few choices regarding your choice of move: you could change your main attacking move to Rock Slide, which hits Heatran and has superior neutral coverage. However, it doesn't do anything to deal with regular counters of Tyranitar or crucially, Bronzong. You could go with two attacks and Taunt, ADV style, and shut down Skarmory and other Pokemon who would just set up on you. If this is the case, Crunch + Earthquake provides the best coverage. I'm not an expert on DD Tar, but it seems that a special defensive spread as such is best.

A Rapid Spinner would be a very good idea. Forretress could wield Rapid Spin and drop Toxic. Vaporeon is a good user of Toxic and would hit annoying switch-ins like LO Suicune and Zapdos.

 

[Awesome A]

This is nothing major, but Gallade might be better than Heracross because of it's higher SpD. Of course, no Guts, so.... as I said nothing major. It's better at the defense side of what you want to do with it, but worse at the hitting things back part. Gallade does have a better move pool. IDK. Its an option

 

[Salavoir55]

roar over DD for t-tar would make a pysudo rest talk suicune which would work as it would stack the entry hazard damage, but you are probably better off using a suicune

rest
sleep talk
roar
surf

or something along these lines

The problem is that Suicune doesn't have the same Special Walling capabilities that Tyranitar has, so this would open my team up to more weaknesses. Also, Stall teams rely on residual damage, and one of the most reliable forms is through Sandstream. While I'm not opposed to having a non Sandstorm stall team, I prefer the sandstorm most of the time.

I wouldnt use only Crunch on TTar and I would probaly replace Dragon Dance for Sone Edge or Earthquake as you wont hit much with just crunch

I haven't run any damage calculations, but Tyranitar should beat what it needs to beat with Crunch only still. The DD helps to beat SubRoost Zapdos. If I used Roar > DD, I could still beat SubRoost Zapdos, but not if said Zapdos also had Roar which would be a problem if I didn't have Rapid Spin and lost Nidoqueen like I'm about to do.

Nidoqueen seems a little like bait for other Suicide leads like Azelf. While Nidoqueen is useful on stallish teams in general- it counters Lucario and Scizor quite well- it shouldn't be the one to lead. But in general, it looks fine. With a set like that though, Heatran does a much better job, considering it can phaze and use Stealth Rock also. Alternatively, you could use a TrickScarf Jirachi with Stealth Rock, which works wonders as a lead, although a little common. Trick / SR / Iron Head / Earthquake for the moves. This would also satisfy your need for a Trick user.

I don't need a Trick user so much as I need something to take out the last Pokemon in case of CurseLax or CMCune, but I know you know that. Jirachi doesn't learn Earthquake. I was thinking Ice Punch > it to help with Salamence seeing how my team has troubles with it. However, I don't like the idea of having such a vital Pokemon to the team being trappable and was thinking about U-Turn / Fire Punch instead.

Heatran leaves me without a way to deal with the last Pokemon, unless I ran Explosion on it, but that's not as reliable as Trick which is not as reliable as Perish Song for doing that. Vaporeon won't like losing the T-Spikes absorber on the team, but it does make the team better to lose it in this case.

Tbh there aren't really many special-fighting moves besides Focus Blast, which Heracross should take well anyway. For defensive Hera, this is what I would use:

Heracross @ Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
Ev's: 204 Hp / 56 Atk / 180 Def / 68 Spe iirc
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Megahorn
-Brick Break / Stone Edge

It works much like your set, but this is a reliable counter to Tyranitar, Lucario, and Breloom to some extent. Heracross is Ev'ed defensively to survive a CBTar Stone Edge and further Sandstorm damage, as well as a +2 Lucario Stone Edge. The spread also yields maximum leftovers recovery. The 68 Speed Ev's are to outspeed Scizor and max speed Tyranitar, and the rest is put in attack up to a bonus point. I believe Rhys29 is fond of my set. Brick Break will destroy the opponents screens even if used against a Ghost.

I still prefer Focus Punch. However, Brick Break will probably be necessary to counter those threats which Nidoqueen is no longer around to do.

There isn't much going for Mismagius if you don't make him fast. Rotom-H can set up dual-screens for your Tyranitar and deal with any other issues you may have. Blue Ace's standard spread works fine. You may find the lack of recovery to be troublesome, but the dual-screens will go a long way towards boosting your defense.

I really dislike having a spin blocker which isn't immune to Toxic, but this team is so far gone that I need to give up some of my personal preferences to make it better unfortunately.

You may find Skarmory as a better steel resist than Forretress, due to being able to deal with Yanmega well. In addition, you could choose to use it as either a phazer or Taunter with minimal special defense investment. The ability for Skarmory to Roost off it's troubles also helps. However, this doesn't do much to help you in the way of Timid LO Gengar, which is pretty rare anyways (less than 1/4 of all gengars) and is easily dealt with by the replacement Jirachi / Heatran.

Vaporeon looks fine. You may want to max HP for dealing with Gyarados and Salamence, although Gyarados is countered easily by Rotom. If special defense is of worry, use 60 Hp / 252 Def /196 Sp. Def and a Bold nature, which will ensure a 3HKO from non-LO Gengar Thunderbolt. It also allows you to outstall Rotoms who don't use Rest / Sleep Talk. If you do this, add Protect over Hp Electric, since you don't need it to counter Gyarados anymore.

DD Tyranitar has some promise. Using Rest / Sleep Talk means that with one attack, you'll be walled by Scizor and Lucario regardless of what you do. The only thing to do to beat Scizor is to go with a mix DD set with Flamethrower or to pile all your Ev's into Attack and use a slow, minimally bulky DD set. You have a few choices regarding your choice of move: you could change your main attacking move to Rock Slide, which hits Heatran and has superior neutral coverage. However, it doesn't do anything to deal with regular counters of Tyranitar or crucially, Bronzong. You could go with two attacks and Taunt, ADV style, and shut down Skarmory and other Pokemon who would just set up on you. If this is the case, Crunch + Earthquake provides the best coverage. I'm not an expert on DD Tar, but it seems that a special defensive spread as such is best.

A Rapid Spinner would be a very good idea. Forretress could wield Rapid Spin and drop Toxic. Vaporeon is a good user of Toxic and would hit annoying switch-ins like LO Suicune and Zapdos.

Toxic on Vaporeon leaves me more open Salamence, but I really like Toxic. I'm considering HP [Ice] on Rotom > Light Screen to help remedy this. Between that and Ice Punch on Jirachi, I think I might be able to handle it. I forgot about Vaporeon drawing those in. Definitely putting Toxic on Vaporeon unless Salamence turns out to be too much for this team. I'll add the extra special defense on Vaporoen.

I'm going to try Skarmory + Jirachi with Rotom-H > Mismagius. I like the extra resists Skarmory gives, but perhaps more importantly, it can phaze, which my team will lack once Nidoqueen is gone. Of course, I may be leaving myself open to residual damage, so Forretress may need to come back with Rapid Spin > Toxic. It depends on whether the Pokemon in my team can force switches well enough on their own by their presence.

I'm also considering Counter > Brave Bird on Skarmory since Counter can't be taunted. If Kingdra attacks, I counter. If it DDs, I'll whirlwind. If it's in an Outrage, I counter. Yanmega can be phazed to (hopefully) take more stealth Rock damage. I haven't run any damage calculations yet, though. If Skarmory needs Brave Bird/Drill Peck to deal with Yanmega well, I'll stick with that and try to predict better / hope I have a Reflect up for Kingdra.

If I did Heatran > Nidoqueen, I would use Forretress for sure.

Getting down to DDtar. If I don't do Restalk, I'll be open to Will-O-Wisp Rotom. I'll also be open to T-Spikes and Spikes more (but less so if I use Forretress and Spin). I could try it out and see how it worked, but I don't think it would work as well. That is also one reason why I'm using Crunch as my only move. Rock Slide seems interesting as the only move though. I'll consider it and put it in the options of the OP.

Also, this Tar is more for special walling than sweeping. DD is more for on the side and late, late, late game. Heracross provides the physical punch during the early- and mid-game. Not a bad idea though. I'm putting that one in my files for use some day if it doesn't work on this team.

This is nothing major, but Gallade might be better than Heracross because of it's higher SpD. Of course, no Guts, so.... as I said nothing major. It's better at the defense side of what you want to do with it, but worse at the hitting things back part. Gallade does have a better move pool. IDK. Its an option

Hmm. No. It is weak to Shadow Ball and wouldn't scare out Gengar as well as Heracross. An interesting idea, but I don't think it would work for this team.

I'll update the first post a little later, so keep checking back. In case you wanted to rate still: in summary, I'm going TrickScarf Jirachi > Nidoqueen, Skarmory > Forretress, and Rotom-H> Mismagius. I'm changing Vaporeon's and Heracross's EVs to what Kingdrom suggested, and I'm going Brick Break > Focus Punch on Heracross. Read the rest of this post to see my problems/questions/preferences, etc. which will be mentioned in the OP update.


Thanks for the rates everyone! There are more than last time for sure!


Edit: Updated the first post. Any more suggestions?