Team No Scarf (#5 and counting on Showdown)

[I080I]

NO SCARF​

I made this team a few months ago and so far its served me well enough to put me to #5 on the ladder. I've not only found it incredibly effective but also is unique in a lot of ways and has definitely grown on me in the time I've used it.

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Alright so my primary motive for making this team was that I wanted to try out choice banded heracross, so he's the first one I put on the team:

Next, I added rhyperior because it complements heracross's resistances very nicely and is also just very anti-meta in of itself.

Now, I needed a special wall, so I decided upon umbreon, partly because I liked it at the time and partly because I wanted wish/heal bell support.

For a strong physical wall, I decided to use slowbro as it easily walled things like mienshao and darmanitan plus it got access to regenerator.

To patch up the final holes in my defense (I noticed I had a megahorn weakness) and to provide rapid spin support, I added hitmontop to the team:

Finally, I needed some sort of set up sweeper but I also at this point didn't have a scarfer to take out fast threats either. After a lot of experimentation, I decided upon moxie honchkrow, a poke that literally sets up by killing fast threats. Finally I had:

After playing with this team for some time two of its members stood out as potentially replaceable. This first was umbreon, which I considered replacing with snorlax. Although umbreon had wish and heal bell, snorlax had superior special bulk, a much needed phazing move that ignored subs, a chance to status and better typing and ability. Snorlax sets were and still are also much less predictable (and thus require my opponent to do a little scouting) and also are harder to set up on. Thus, snorlax replaced umbreon.

The second candidate for removal was slowbro for a couple reasons:
1) Didn't help my megahorn weakness
2) Gave grass types (especially shaymin) a free switch-in which my team did not appreciate. Also became a problem because it gave umbreons a free chance to wish or heal bell.
3) Didn't really do anything. In terms of versatility, all slowbro can do is use toxic or twave, which every good player sees coming from miles away (shaymin and umbreon also absorbed statuses with leisure). Slowbro can't use hazards, phaze, taunt, rapid spin or intmidate. Specs sets helped provide additional offense force but were to weak to act as reliable walls.

Dipping down to the RU tier for an answer, I pulled up this behemoth: Qwilfish. It fit like a glove into my team with access to spikes, toxic spikes, intimidate and the ability to completely counter darm, azumarill, mienshao, heracross, and machamp as well as other threats.

My final team:

Now on to the individual members:

Heracross

Guts
Adamant Nature (+Atk -SpA) 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moves:
-Close Combat
-Megahorn
-Stone Edge
-Shadow Claw
​

This guy is an absolute monster. Megahorn and CC for powerful stab attacks, stone edge for things like crobat, and night slash for things like cofagrigus and dusclops that would wall heracross otherwise. Why shadow claw over the more common night slash? They're almost identical, same high crit ratio, same base power, same exact pp and same general offensive capabilities, one hitting normal types better while the other hits fighting types better. Here a just a few reasons shadow claw is more useful:
-cobalion
-mienshao
-machamp
-hitmontop
-scrafty
-virizion
-other heracross
-surprise factor
-no normal type is going to switch into a heracross anyway
Having guts on heracross is also amazing a) because it can absorb statuses for the team and benefit from them and b) most people are so afraid of moxie scarf hera that they tend to want to burn it immediately and often take it for granted that a burned heracross can't do anything and play around it stupidly.

Here are a few damage calcs to show the power of heracross:
252+ Atk Choice Band Burned Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 307-363 (75.99 - 89.85%)

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Burned Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 234-276 (76.97 - 90.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This is after an intimidate)

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 339-399 (93.64 - 110.22%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Burned Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 2676-3148 (952.31 - 1120.28%) (Yes, heracross is so strong it can literally kill eleven weaviles in one hit.)

It can also ohko slowbro, crobat, and xatu without a guts boost.

Rhyperior

Solid Rock
Careful Nature (+SpD -SpA) 252 HP / 252 SpD /4 Spd
Moves:
-Rock Blast
-Stealth Rock
-Dragon Tail
-Earthquake​

Fairly self explanatory set: ruins electric types, sets up rocks, tanks ****ing everything. Looking at its stats, rhyperior doesn't look like it can take many special hits but its actually incredibly good at walling things like raikou, zapdos, togekiss, victini, honchkrow etc. Dragon tail can be replaced by things like megahorn, protect, stone edge, etc. but its a very nice phazing move to have on a team that uses both spikes and rocks.

Snorlax

Thick Fat
Careful (+SpD -SpA) Nature 204 HP / 252 SpD / 52 Def
Moves:
-Body Slam
-Whirlwind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk​

Snorlax can take special hits for days, phaze out anything that tries to set up on it and get of a huge hit and maybe a paralysis on anything that dares switch into it (like mienshao). The Hp EVs are specifically to give Snorlax and hp number and the def EVs are there to strengthen snorlax's survivability and take hits from victini if it has to.

Qwilfish

Intimidate
Impish Nature (+Def -SpA) 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Moves:
-Poison Jab
-Waterfall
-Spikes
-Pain Split
​

This guy is amazing. Qwilfish single-handedly walls almost all UU attackers by itself with its great typing and ability. It also provides spikes support which nearly guarantee the team to win stall wars and works great with rhyperior and snorlax's phazing. It also compliments rhyperior's resistances really well and baits choiced pokes' earthquakes and psychics, providing perfect opportunities to allow honchkrow to get a sweep going. I run dual stab instead of taunt or something for a couple reasons. When an opponent sees waterwall, they assume things like virizion and shaymin get a free switch in. When they see poison jab, they assume things like rhyperior and nidoking get a free switch. Also, while waterfall is more reliable, the chance for a poison with poison jab is incredibly useful, especially with things like xatu that like to switch in. Thus, I've found dual stab to be more useful than any another move. The 8 speed EVs are to outspeed and potentially pick of any low hp gligars (and maybe get a flinch). I urge you all to try out qwilfish in UU if you already haven't.

Hitmontop

Intimidate
Impish Nature (+Def -SpA) 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Moves:
-Close Combat
-Toxic
-Sucker Punch
-Rapid Spin​

Although Hitmontop is probably seen least on this team during a regular battle, he still plays a very important role. IMO, he's by far the best spinner in the UU tier and on top of it provides intimidate support, toxic support (only one on the team), priority and a powerful stab move. This guy has saved me from defeat countless times. Foresight can be used over toxic; both are better in different situations and one is definitively more useful. It also gives me a very beneficial double intimidate

Honchkrow

Moxie
Adamant Nature (+Atk -SpA) 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SpD
Moves:
-Brave Bird
-Sucker Punch
-Superpower
-Roost​

"Honchkrow isn't sweeping me enough"
-Said no one ever

To be honest, when I initially put honch on the team, I kinda just slapped it on for no reason, but it's worked out amazingly. It gets excellent coverage, an amazing ability, stab priority and typing that allows it to switch into ground and psychic moves with no damage at all. All he needs is a free kill and 9 times out of 10 he ends up taking out most of the opposing team. A few drawbacks are its frailty, rocks weakness and mediocre speed but it makes up for them fairly well. Keep in mind honchkrow works best late game, so don't lose him too early.

Threat List​

Shaymin

-The only thing that can comfortably take a hit from shaymin is my snorlax and if it gets a SpDef drop with seed flare, my team has a lot of trouble dealing with it. I also don't have anything to outspeed it if its running max speed.

Bisharp

-The problem with running dual intimidate it that it can be abused by anything with defiant, mainly bisharp. If my rhyperior is at full health, it can take a +2 iron head and ohko with EQ but if rhyperior's weakened, bisharp can prove to be a pain to take down

Gligar

-This thing can be somewhat difficult for my team to take down, and I have nothing that can straight up 2HKO it, but it does eventually get worn down by hazards, flinches, paralysis, etc. If it comes down to it, I can also stall it out of pp with snorlax (rest w/o using sleep talk) assuming it doesn't have taunt.

There may be more threats that I can't remember at the moment so let me know if anything comes to mind.

Team Analysis​

There are a few things you may have noticed about my team which may seem questionable. As the title suggests, I have no scarfer which, to many of you, may seem appalling for the UU tier. This really doesn't hurt my team; however, and it can even play into my favor when opponents assume my heracross is scarfed.

Another unique aspect of my team is that I don't have a single special attacker, in fact every nature on my team is a minus SpAtt nature. This can be pretty nice as it renders some opposing pokes like snorlax practically obsolete. This also isn't a problem for my team because I can at least 2HKO every physical wall in the tier barring the aforementioned gligar.

One final less obvious thing to note is that my team is also very tankish. It has an average base speed of 64, hits extremely hard and takes hits very well.


Synergy-wise, I've found the team checks its own weaknesses very well, with the exception of psychic (and a little bit ground) attacks. This is intentional as opponents either are reluctant to lock themselves into either of these two types or may get a short-term kill only to open themselves up to be massacred by Honchkrow.






Here are some of the best replay's I've had with the team:
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-17107575 -- Me 6-0ing a threatening *** team (I'm on the other side. Also wasn't technically a 6-0 cuz they foreited but it would've been one in 2-3 turns

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-16835548 -- Very close match showing the power of Honchkrow

Please rate, comment, suggest, etc. I am always open to suggests unless they're shamefully awful (put hyper beam on snorlax).

 

[patthecat11756]

Hey there,good team. I think I saw this on smogon, too. Just a few nitpicks...
1. Shadow claw is okay on heracross, but I would remove cobalion from that list you gave on heracross. I woulld say either earthquake/sleep talk would benefit hera more seeing as how none of your pokes like to be put asleep, barring snorlax.
2. You may be able to get away with more attack on rhyperior. You already have a good physical check in qwilfish and hitmontop and a great sp def wall in snorlax. Unless you know of any key kos max hp/sp def will help id recommend adamant nature and and. 248 hp/16 attack/244 sp def, you'll be able tank hits with solid rock and hit much harder.
3. Snorlax is okay, you may be able to get away with a bulky attacking set, especially with pursuit to trap specs chandelure who easily ohkos your entire team and its one true counter can't touch it because its mono attacking. Timid specs chandy ohko thyperior and qwilfish with energy ball, blow hitmontop, honch and hera away with overheat/fire blast. This could be remedieed by pursuit on honch, but snorlax really is the better option to tank a hit and swiftly ko with pursuit.
4. Hitmontop is okay too, but I don't see why your team needs a rapid spinner tbh. You have a poke that absorbs t spikes and other hazards aren't an issue. You may be better off with a nice revenge killer in this slot. I think scarf mienshao would patch up your weaknesses nicely to gligar with hp ice, u turn for shaymin.
5. Also, to patch up bisharp weakness is mucho easy. Haze > poison jab on qwilfish and problem solved

 

[I080I]

@patthecat
I'll respond to each comment inidvidually
1. I absolutely need shadow claw lest I get ruined by ghost types. Both of the options you've suggested have had their moments, but shadow claw can really save me.
2. I honestly find the extra bulk a lot more helpful than extra attack power on rhyp. I use him mainly as a well for certain things and taking away some of his bulk makes my team just that more vulnerable to things like togekiss. Not a super important difference but I think its safer to keep him as defensive as possible.
3. What exactly do you propose replacing with pursuit? If you mean whirlwind, because I have often have a lot of hazards up and no way to get rid of set up pokes, I'm probably gonna stick with whirlwind but you're right chandelure can be very annoying. As for it 2HKOing my whole team, tho, he can't do much at all to snorlax (specs does like 20% with fire blast) and he gets ruined by hazards which is my best way of taking him down. Also, if it isn't running energy ball rhyperior can take a hit mildly comfortably.
4. I can see where you're coming from with your other suggestions but I definitely disagree with this one. If I win the hazard war, its game over. Period. If I lose the hazard war with this team I lose. Period. Although, yes a revenge killer might be nice, the ability to spin, toxic and intimidate are all essential to this team (plus the extra priority). He's also often the only thing keeping me from being swept by something like rock polish rhyperior or banded krookodile
5. This suggestion, on the other hand, I actually like a lot. A bunch of subbing pokes do like to set up on qwil and haze would be nice (especially for bisharp). It would leave bisharp at my mercy, dealing little damage with unboosted brick breaks or iron heads and I could use bisharp as hazard set up fodder. It is kind of a toss up between poison jab and haze because I love the damage it does to grass types, but I'll definitely try out haze.

Thanks for the rate =)

Also (this is for everybody) I may consider putting a strong special attacker in for heracross. Any suggestions?

 

[patthecat11756]

Those are good points, but just keep in mind a few things.
1. shadow claw on hera only hits golurk who resists/immune to heras stabs. Cc/megahorn/stone edge hit everything else hard, with the exception to the nidos, which are more common than golurk. The only other ghost is chandy who wont stomach a stone edge.
2. On rhyperior, I did the calcs. An uninvested giga drain from roserade does 70 to 82 on your ev spread, while the same giga drain does 77 to 92 on an adamant 248 hp/16 attack/ 244 sp def rhyperior. 7% doesn't really justify a 10% difference in power if it doesn't help rhyperior take any hits better. That giga drain is from the sp def roserade with no ev investment at all.
3. I was saying you could run a more tanky attacking set with body slam/pursuit/2 filler moves like crunch/earthquake. The problem with snorlax and rhyperior is that their stats are so lopsided that it doesn't pay to fully invest in one stat. 160 hp and 110 sp def will let snorlax tank most sp hits with barely any investment. You have a phazer in rhyperior with dragon tail, but you can run roar too. If you're worried about set up pokes, then let qwilfish runhaze, that's what I do with scrafty.
4. Chandy can in no way beat your snorlax 1v1, but will cripple it with trickspecs/scarf.
5. Your team is very well built and puts a lot of pressure on your opponent with cb hera and moxie honch. You'll find that if you keep the offensive presurre on the opponent, they wont be able to get hazards down. If you see froslass, lead with rhyperior and rock blast is a clean ko and breaks sash. Roserades annoying, but honch and hera threaten it immediately. If you make the opponent second guess their moves, you'll find openings to sweep and prevent hazards. My team functions very similar to yours. I had cb snorlax, bulky nidoqueen/ tank rhyperior, sp def roserade, qwilfish and cb heracross. I can tell you now that I was able to scare pokes away fearing the scarf hera that they make stupid choices leading to your win.