Team Skull, Aether Foundation and Plot Discussion Thread [Contains Story Spoilers]

[hydrosharp_98]

Whatever it iis, I hope this team of evil doers is better than that of X/Y. Hopefully they are more akin to the bad guys from D/P or B/W, which IMO were the greatest out of them all in terms if super evil plotness and difficulty.

Plasma were the best in my opinion, and Rocket for nostalgia (Sun/Moon...Rocket?!).

Galactic, however, I think had somewhat similar motives to Flare. Lysandre and Cyrus mirrored eachother in some parts, and both even had NPCs in the settlement of the eighth gym further explain their past. They both went nuts at the end, too.

 

[silver_phoenix]

Plasma were the best in my opinion, and Rocket for nostalgia (Sun/Moon...Rocket?!).

Galactic, however, I think had somewhat similar motives to Flare. Lysandre and Cyrus mirrored eachother in some parts, and both even had NPCs in the settlement of the eighth gym further explain their past. They both went nuts at the end, too.

Cyrus was so much more interesting than Lysandre though, and Team Galactic had it's Admins that all had different looks and such, but everyone in Team Flare dressed the same. Also Team Flare were such pushovers it wasn't even much fun, whereas Galactic was actually challenging for at least the first run of the game.

 

[Vincentium]

I liked Team Galactic a lot, too, but maybe I'm just a little bit biased because I really enjoyed DPPt more than anything else in the franchise. I believe that the upcoming villain team in Sun and Moon is going to be really intense. Team Flare lost all the intensity (it is still a hard team to beat, though, except everyone just fell flat), and the creators need to return it. I don't think they can really fall harder than Team Flare, though.

 

[Edmund Daltonic]

I'd welcome the only team that still has its HQ, leader and main structure intact (at least in the anime): Team Rocket ver.2.0. This time with fundamentalists that will selfdestruct themselves when loosing!

 

[jireh the provider]

I think the bigger question here is if Gamefreak is willing to include topics outside of the Shounen category (young boys). Rather, they will insert major plot relevant topics that grown adults (I forgot the japanese term to that) similar to CaptainBebop andother Japanese Manga where the issues are problems that older people face? Like a broken relationship with a wife?Or the concept of rebuilding one's character again? Or even parents being overprotective about their kids (like in BW with Boanca but further expanded to the concept?

 

[FallBird]

I think the bigger question here is if Gamefreak is willing to include topics outside of the Shounen category (young boys). Rather, they will insert major plot relevant topics that grown adults (I forgot the japanese term to that) similar to CaptainBebop andother Japanese Manga where the issues are problems that older people face? Like a broken relationship with a wife?Or the concept of rebuilding one's character again? Or even parents being overprotective about their kids (like in BW with Boanca but further expanded to the concept?

I feel like ORAS touched on the marital problems during the Delta Episode. Kids probably wouldn't pick up on it, but the player's mother was disappointed, sad; and that probably happens to her all the time. I mean, her husband works two towns away, it seems unlikely that he spends a ton of time at home. I would like to see another set of BOTH parents, or maybe a single father next time, to mix it up. And it would be cool if the player's parent(s) were given a more active role in the story - the closest we have is Norman, and that's only because he's a gym leader. If the player character stays 10 years old, it would make sense if maybe his parents worried more than they do!

 

[Creyk]

I feel like ORAS touched on the marital problems during the Delta Episode. Kids probably wouldn't pick up on it, but the player's mother was disappointed, sad; and that probably happens to her all the time. I mean, her husband works two towns away, it seems unlikely that he spends a ton of time at home. I would like to see another set of BOTH parents, or maybe a single father next time, to mix it up. And it would be cool if the player's parent(s) were given a more active role in the story - the closest we have is Norman, and that's only because he's a gym leader. If the player character stays 10 years old, it would make sense if maybe his parents worried more than they do!

This is so true. I don't get why they have to make the characters fatherless most of the time. It's just so lame. Although also a very small part of the game so it doesn't matter much

 

[hydrosharp_98]

I feel like ORAS touched on the marital problems during the Delta Episode. Kids probably wouldn't pick up on it, but the player's mother was disappointed, sad; and that probably happens to her all the time. I mean, her husband works two towns away, it seems unlikely that he spends a ton of time at home. I would like to see another set of BOTH parents, or maybe a single father next time, to mix it up. And it would be cool if the player's parent(s) were given a more active role in the story - the closest we have is Norman, and that's only because he's a gym leader. If the player character stays 10 years old, it would make sense if maybe his parents worried more than they do!

I don't think we've had a 10 year old player character since Gen IV, with Lucas/Dawn and Ethan/Lyra. In BW, Hilbert/Hilda was 14+, and by the time of BW2, 16+. No official age was given for Nate or Rosa in BW2, but it's hinted that they're 13 or 14. In XY, again, it is not stated what age Calem and Serena are, but they're implied to be older. In ORAS, both Brendan and May are 12.

Strangely we've had one more female character design, due to receiving Lyra in the GS remakes, than we have male - despite them only being playable since the second generation.

With XYORAS, seeds were planted many times that suggested that Pokémon was going for a serious and more "grown up" undertone, such as with the marital problems you mentioned, as well as Lysandre trying to kill everyone, Looker losing Croagunk, is developing relationships with a friend or rival (very cringy, but hinted to be a relationship nonetheless), the story of the Kalosian War, that guy passing away in Anistar, the events at both Sea and New Mauville, as well as the events of the Delta Episode.

 

[dirkac]

I don't think we've had a 10 year old player character since Gen IV, with Lucas/Dawn and Ethan/Lyra. In BW, Hilbert/Hilda was 14+, and by the time of BW2, 16+. No official age was given for Nate or Rosa in BW2, but it's hinted that they're 13 or 14. In XY, again, it is not stated what age Calem and Serena are, but they're implied to be older. In ORAS, both Brendan and May are 12.

Strangely we've had one more female character design, due to receiving Lyra in the GS remakes, than we have male - despite them only being playable since the second generation.

With XYORAS, seeds were planted many times that suggested that Pokémon was going for a serious and more "grown up" undertone, such as with the marital problems you mentioned, as well as Lysandre trying to kill everyone, Looker losing Croagunk, is developing relationships with a friend or rival (very cringy, but hinted to be a relationship nonetheless), the story of the Kalosian War, that guy passing away in Anistar, the events at both Sea and New Mauville, as well as the events of the Delta Episode.

Actually, we have flat out not had a 10-year old protagonist.
Red was 11, and Leaf could be assumed as so too. Ethan, Kris, Lyra, May, and Brendan had no age given (outside ORAS), and Lucas and Dawn were stated to be 12.

Anyway, yeah, Pokémon has Always had a few darker undertones if you wanted to look for it (especially DPPt, jesus christ Cyrus), but XYORAS definitely amped that up to almost insane hieghts, like every area has some revelation or event that affects characters past or present negatively.

 

[FallBird]

I don't think we've had a 10 year old player character since Gen IV, with Lucas/Dawn and Ethan/Lyra. In BW, Hilbert/Hilda was 14+, and by the time of BW2, 16+. No official age was given for Nate or Rosa in BW2, but it's hinted that they're 13 or 14. In XY, again, it is not stated what age Calem and Serena are, but they're implied to be older. In ORAS, both Brendan and May are 12.

I would say that up to 14, the parents should still play a stronger role. The only characters I feel were capable enough to break with parental contact were probably the fifth gen protagonists, and we even got to see that some of their parents (Bianca's dad) still felt uncomfortable. I'm not saying the player's parents should mimic Bianca's dad, but I do think they should take a more active role if we get another younger protagonist. For example, many things could have been done with Serena's mother; she was a racing celebrity, and it would have made sense if we had run into her from time to time. Instead, she was just left at home to have no story whatsoever.

 

[dirkac]

I would say that up to 14, the parents should still play a stronger role. The only characters I feel were capable enough to break with parental contact were probably the fifth gen protagonists, and we even got to see that some of their parents (Bianca's dad) still felt uncomfortable. I'm not saying the player's parents should mimic Bianca's dad, but I do think they should take a more active role if we get another younger protagonist. For example, many things could have been done with Serena's mother; she was a racing celebrity, and it would have made sense if we had run into her from time to time. Instead, she was just left at home to have no story whatsoever.

Remember, your mom in BW actually called you on Route 7, which is the only instance of contact from your parents in the series that was initiated by them (outside of Norman calling you on Mr. Briney's boat in Emerald).

No incidental "oh hello child I went on vacation to Hearthome fancy seeing you here" crap, but your parent actually contacting you.
The oldest protagonist in the series, too, so age isn't really that relevant :U

 

[Firebrand]

With XYORAS, seeds were planted many times that suggested that Pokémon was going for a serious and more "grown up" undertone, such as with the marital problems you mentioned, as well as Lysandre trying to kill everyone, Looker losing Croagunk, is developing relationships with a friend or rival (very cringy, but hinted to be a relationship nonetheless), the story of the Kalosian War, that guy passing away in Anistar, the events at both Sea and New Mauville, as well as the events of the Delta Episode.

That stuff has always been there though. There was some pretty heavy stuff in the lore of even Gen I. And that heavy stuff is always going to be there, but it's never going to be more overt than what we saw in BW or ORAS. Pokemon is intended to be first and foremost a game for kids to enjoy, and every once in a while they'll throw in stuff for the periphery demographic that hints at larger stuff happening in the background, but it's never going to move any further into the spotlight than the implications we have now.

 

[hydrosharp_98]

That stuff has always been there though. There was some pretty heavy stuff in the lore of even Gen I. And that heavy stuff is always going to be there, but it's never going to be more overt than what we saw in BW or ORAS. Pokemon is intended to be first and foremost a game for kids to enjoy, and every once in a while they'll throw in stuff for the periphery demographic that hints at larger stuff happening in the background, but it's never going to move any further into the spotlight than the implications we have now.

I'm well aware that it's always been there, but I was citing that with XYORAS having higher age ratings, Pokémon seems to have included more than they normally do, and of course without doing any harm. I certainly never suggested that they'd be given a spotlight.

The games have a higher age rating now and I do think there are quite a few "hints" which are more than just that in the sixth generation, perhaps even the fifth too.

 

[Firebrand]

I'm well aware that it's always been there, but I was citing that with XYORAS having higher age ratings, Pokémon seems to have included more than they normally do, and of course without doing any harm. I certainly never suggested that they'd be given a spotlight.

The games have a higher age rating now and I do think there are quite a few "hints" which are more than just that in the sixth generation, perhaps even the fifth too.

They have a higher age rating? They're still E in America, so I wasn't aware. The reason I raised an objection to your point was because I felt that if anything, Gen VI was a step back from the darker themes that really were brought to the fore in Gen V. I think GF is trying to strike the right balance between having a game that's accessible to everyone but also has a deep lore that's more than just what we get in the pokedex, and they haven't quite found it yet.

 

[hydrosharp_98]

They have a higher age rating? They're still E in America, so I wasn't aware. The reason I raised an objection to your point was because I felt that if anything, Gen VI was a step back from the darker themes that really were brought to the fore in Gen V. I think GF is trying to strike the right balance between having a game that's accessible to everyone but also has a deep lore that's more than just what we get in the pokedex, and they haven't quite found it yet.

Oh, I see your point. Gen VI was, for the most part, much lighter than Gen V, but it was still pretty dark - and much more direct about it, in my opinion.

And yeah, the age ratings went up, at least for Europe (I'm from the UK), but it probably has more to do with the games being on 3DS (well, that and Flare's goal being to literally kill everyone), so I'd imagine if it was defaulted to such a rating because of this they'd add extra simply because they can and couldn't change the rating.

My X and Omega Ruby games are both PEGI 7 ratings, and I agree with that last part especially. With Gen V, I'm not sure what it was (perhaps having sprites for so long and the cutscenes where we had artwork for characters by Sugimori), but it just felt more...natural and alive. To this day I still look at the 3D engine in XYORAS, and though I love it for the most part, it just feels like it's missing something. That something probably being extremely cliche - more of a soul.

But perhaps the latter point is more reserved for the gaming industry as a whole nowadays.

 

[UltimateNinja]

They have a higher age rating? They're still E in America, so I wasn't aware. The reason I raised an objection to your point was because I felt that if anything, Gen VI was a step back from the darker themes that really were brought to the fore in Gen V. I think GF is trying to strike the right balance between having a game that's accessible to everyone but also has a deep lore that's more than just what we get in the pokedex, and they haven't quite found it yet.

XY overall theme was life and death. There are many scenes where the player got confronted into that theme and they even mentioned that someone died. And the whole TF plot was also pretty much "kill everyone except us" thing.
Also I can't see why Gen V was darker. DPP storyline with Cyrus and his suicide was already more darker than "let's free the pokemon of the humans and then we abuse them like every Team Rocket".

 

[FallBird]

XY overall theme was life and death. There are many scenes where the player got confronted into that theme and they even mentioned that someone died. And the whole TF plot was also pretty much "kill everyone except us" thing.
Also I can't see why Gen V was darker. DPP storyline with Cyrus and his suicide was already more darker than "let's free the pokemon of the humans and then we abuse them like every Team Rocket".

I think people feel that BW was a darker game because there's just more meat to the story than in the others - N in and of himself is a tragic story, you have themes of betrayal coming with Ghetsis, more mature characters, etc. Though I agree that XY and ORAS had more obvious dark parts, BW is far subtler, and I prefer that rather than the in-your-face gloom.

 

[Firebrand]

XY overall theme was life and death. There are many scenes where the player got confronted into that theme and they even mentioned that someone died. And the whole TF plot was also pretty much "kill everyone except us" thing.
Also I can't see why Gen V was darker. DPP storyline with Cyrus and his suicide was already more darker than "let's free the pokemon of the humans and then we abuse them like every Team Rocket".

I think people feel that BW was a darker game because there's just more meat to the story than in the others - N in and of himself is a tragic story, you have themes of betrayal coming with Ghetsis, more mature characters, etc. Though I agree that XY and ORAS had more obvious dark parts, BW is far subtler, and I prefer that rather than the in-your-face gloom.

Yeah, what I mean by my earlier post about Gen V being much darker was that, yeah, Gen VI's whole deal was life and death buuuuuut... it was almost cartoony in how it was dealt with. Team Flare's goal was to "kill everyone except us, maniacal laughter followed by an awkward pause as they figure out how to actually do that". Like, okay, you made a big crystal thing come out of the ground, and apparently it was used as a nuke laser in the past, but even as I was at the climax of the game, there never was any threat of menace. Like, Lysandre just seemed like a rehash of every sympathetic anti-villain trope until he went off the deep end, and that just seemed kind of contrived. Sure, there were references to death and dying throughout, but nothing more grim than what we got in the Canalave library? I mean, I don't think it ever felt real to me, that Team Flare posed a real threat. Sure, they took over a power plant and a factory and harnessed a legendary's energy, but that's what Pokemon villains do. It felt like they were just going through the motions.

Even in ORAS, Maxie and Archie are always just sort of in over their heads. And in the Delta episode, Zinnia's backstory is too all over the place in an attempt to make her edgy and mysterious for me to take it all that seriously.

But in Gen V, you got a sense of what Plasma's goals were. A lot of the grunts genuinely believed in the justice of what they were doing. N and Ghetsis and Colress were fleshed out characters, and even some of the sages got some good development in BW2. N was, as stated, a tragic figure that you related to, and the climax where you fought your way up the castle seemed climactic, because as you did so, you were learning just how completely messed up N was and how Ghetsis had conditioned him that way. Ghetsis presented a clear and present danger to the region, and there was nothing cartoony about him at all. In BW2, he is perfectly ready to kill the player specifically, not the vague threats that other leaders made. Even Colress was scary, in a morally ambiguous type way. Not to mention that Gen V did a really good job of illustrating anxiety about growing up, moving past loss, dealing with troubling family situations, etc. I don't know, I guess I just felt like there was much more at stake in Gen V and that lent the plot urgency, like the actions I was taking mattered to the fate of the region, and that drove home how dark things could have turned out had the player not gotten involved.

 

[UltimateNinja]

I think people feel that BW was a darker game because there's just more meat to the story than in the others - N in and of himself is a tragic story, you have themes of betrayal coming with Ghetsis, more mature characters, etc. Though I agree that XY and ORAS had more obvious dark parts, BW is far subtler, and I prefer that rather than the in-your-face gloom.

But fleshed out don't automatically mean that the game took a more darker direction, but that the story is good written. "Darker" means a more mature and more serious tone to the plot (and the theme). Something like Cyrus destroying the current universe and not a team that tries to free the pokemon for whatever reasons and abuse them afterwards like TR already did.

Even in ORAS, Maxie and Archie are always just sort of in over their heads. And in the Delta episode, Zinnia's backstory is too all over the place in an attempt to make her edgy and mysterious for me to take it all that seriously.

But in Gen V, you got a sense of what Plasma's goals were. A lot of the grunts genuinely believed in the justice of what they were doing. N and Ghetsis and Colress were fleshed out characters, and even some of the sages got some good development in BW2. N was, as stated, a tragic figure that you related to, and the climax where you fought your way up the castle seemed climactic, because as you did so, you were learning just how completely messed up N was and how Ghetsis had conditioned him that way. Ghetsis presented a clear and present danger to the region, and there was nothing cartoony about him at all. In BW2, he is perfectly ready to kill the player specifically, not the vague threats that other leaders made. Even Colress was scary, in a morally ambiguous type way. Not to mention that Gen V did a really good job of illustrating anxiety about growing up, moving past loss, dealing with troubling family situations, etc. I don't know, I guess I just felt like there was much more at stake in Gen V and that lent the plot urgency, like the actions I was taking mattered to the fate of the region, and that drove home how dark things could have turned out had the player not gotten involved.

Huh I've seen multiple times that grunts believe in their "justice" of what they are doing? Team Flare consistently brag themselve to bring more beauty to the world. Or Aqua&Magma talking how more the humans would benefit of more landmass/ocean. That wasn't only Plasma. And like I said prior, the writing doesn't have anything to do with how dark the plot is, but how they are dealing their plans to fulfill them. In that case, grunts attacking the player wasn't dark, since their intensions are only to take over the pokemon or to defeat the player who stop their plans. The more important guys of the evil team are the real threatening guys. N was there for the "let's free the pokemon" thing to the player. He was kind to the player and turned out to be abused by Ghetsis, the real boss of the team. The seven sages are behind him and they have the same intension. In BW, only Ghetsis, the usual leader, was the evil guy and the climax with him was the only thing I can think off to be somehow dark. Colress was the usual scientist. Also don't remember anything dark from him.

 

[FallBird]

But fleshed out don't automatically mean that the game took a more darker direction, but that the story is good written. "Darker" means a more mature and more serious tone to the plot (and the theme). Something like Cyrus destroying the current universe and not a team that tries to free the pokemon for whatever reasons and abuse them afterwards like TR already did.




Huh I've seen multiple times that grunts believe in their "justice" of what they are doing? Team Flare consistently brag themselve to bring more beauty to the world. Or Aqua&Magma talking how more the humans would benefit of more landmass/ocean. That wasn't only Plasma. And like I said prior, the writing doesn't have anything to do with how dark the plot is, but how they are dealing their plans to fulfill them. In that case, grunts attacking the player wasn't dark, since their intensions are only to take over the pokemon or to defeat the player who stop their plans. The more important guys of the evil team are the real threatening guys. N was there for the "let's free the pokemon" thing to the player. He was kind to the player and turned out to be abused by Ghetsis, the real boss of the team. The seven sages are behind him and they have the same intension. In BW, only Ghetsis, the usual leader, was the evil guy and the climax with him was the only thing I can think off to be somehow dark. Colress was the usual scientist. Also don't remember anything dark from him.

You're looking at things the wrong way. Yes, Cyrus's plan was obviously dark; but it was also grand and obnoxious. Team Plasma is centered around the idea of abused Pokemon, and when talking to N, you're supposed to question if you're actually doing the right thing. "Dark" doesn't have to mean the destruction of the universe. "Dark" can mean realistic, existentialist, traumatic. And I don't think that other grunts believed in what they were doing as much as those of Team Plasma. Plasma grunts usually talked about liberating your pokemon; Flare, as we know, has to pay to be grunts in the first place. They only care because they believe they will be saved. As for Aqua/Magma, I've never really noticed anything in their dialogue that suggests they really believe in what they're doing, more than just liking Archie/Maxie and following him. Also, Colress, as Firebrand says, is morally ambiguous. The "dark" bit about Colress isn't that he's mean or evil or whatever, it's that he really doesn't care. To not care about your actions and their consequences - that's what we call a psychopath.