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Team Skull, Aether Foundation and Plot Discussion Thread [Contains Story Spoilers]

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Wow... I couldn't really have asked for more in this plot.

Lusamine... dayum. Just saying, when I saw Motherbeast properly for the first time I kinda freaked out. Lusamine was being super-dysfunctional before, so I was already creeped out, so Motherbeast was the bit where I just ended up going OHMYF**KINGGODWHATISTHAT. Then after the battle, where Lusamine falls to the floor and Lillie rushes over to her, and Lusamine looks at her and mentions how Lillie is beautiful. That part is one of the best scenes in the entire Pokemon series ever, and it reduced me to tears. Gladion also developed as a character really nicely, and when he's shown to care for Lillie and Lusamine to no end it just makes me fangirl in the corner. Also, we know when a character develops when they don't smile for most of the game, then they do at the very end, and Gladion did just that. Another unexpected minor plot point was the encounter with Plumeria just before the canyon. When she walked up behind us, I was fully expecting a battle. But then she apologises to Lillie, and that point showed a great deal of character development which I loved. Even Guzma got development, as we know that all he wants to do is be a trial captain - he's just not quite doing it the right way.

Moving on from the serious stuff, I do have to say that ever since discovering this line was in the game, I had been hyped for Guzma to say "Y'll are stupid". I definitely smiled when I saw that quote.

Also, I have a question. I'm not really sure what Guzma's motive was to go to Ultra Space with Lusamine. Can anyone explain?
 

cl94

Well-Known Member
Wow... I couldn't really have asked for more in this plot.
Also, I have a question. I'm not really sure what Guzma's motive was to go to Ultra Space with Lusamine. Can anyone explain?

Refer to above where it is implied (and stated outright in the Japanese version) that Guzma grew up in an abusive household. Plumeria says that Lusamine was the first person who ever appeared to care for Guzma, so of course he'd follow her in.

Edit: Got the person wrong
 
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Dragalge

"Orange" Magical Girl
Loved the plot of Sun/Moon! Best story since BW1 imo mostly because of how original it was and still incorporated the legendaries better then XY's box mascots. And that final fight with Lusamine...woah! I definitely don't mind having more original plotlines like this in the future and each character like Gladion and Plumeria managed to be way more memorable then those scientists in XY and the commanders in DPPt to me. So glad I didn't spoil myself in regards to this!
 

Assassin9399

Wanna hug?
I loved this story. Team Skull was actually fun to deal with, especially every time you can pretend you have never hear of them before. Comic wise, they were great. I do agree that how they suddenly worked for the Aether Foundation could've been explained better. Guzma's motive is mentioned, but it could have been explained a bit better, maybe from Grunt dialogue before and after battles. Other than that I liked how they were simply a group of organised criminals. They reminded me of Team Rocket in that sense, although Skull consists of amateurs.

Aether Foundation was a bit abrupt though. Especially how you fight through all the grunts, defeat their boss and then when she's gone, after which everything is fine again between you and them. And this is before you rescue Lusamine. Although I do not think Aether foundation should have been clearly evil from the start, it would have been better if you could start raising question marks at their methods as you progress through the game. That way, when Gladion takes over after Lusamine's rescue, he can really make it a better organisation. Right now it's just the opening scene with Lillie and the fact that she doesn't want to visit that imply it's not a perfect organisation.

Lusamine as a villain was great. I am personally a fan of this kind of villain as well. Whereas Archie, Gethis, Cyrus and so were idiots with stupid plans to destroy the world, I get Lusamine's motivation (or well, obsession). How she became who she is makes a lot more sense. My biggest complaint would be that the fact that it's all due to the obsession over the disappearance of Lillie and Gladion's father should have been announced sooner. That way it's easier to empathise with Lillie who wants to save her mum. When I started the rescue I felt like "Why can't we just leave her here?" She seemed a whole lot happier and she couldn't bother anyone.

Although I do not think that the story of the game is perfect, Sun and More are by far the best Pokémon games story-wise. I hope they keep this up and improve in further installments.
 

KalosChampion

Well-Known Member
One of my fav things about Lusamine was her team. All of the other evil team bosses had the same edgy poison and dark type Pokémon but Lusamine was more original with her Clefable, Milotic, etc.
 

diakyu

Well-Known Member
It is worth mentioning the majority of the Aether grunts are not evil, just following orders. The majority of them are good guys.
 

Ajduk

Well-Known Member
The main problem with Lusamine is that the last battle against her doesn't have any high stakes.
Starting from gen 3 there were always high stakes in play. You had to stop team aqua/magma from awakening the legendaries and destroying the world. You had to stop Cyrus from twisting this world in his own image. I didn't play gen 5 but I know that it was something cataclysmic as well. Gen 6 you had to stop Lysandre form firing the Ultimate Weapon. What made those battles memorable to me is that, near the end of your journey, you are faced with the big bad and storywise if you lose than the whole region/world loses too. You can't deny that the consequences of you losing in those games weren't high. If you lose against Lusamine nothing bad happens to the region/world. There is no real risk involved.
No, I don't care for speculation like ''but the ultra beasts would come and destroy the region'' or anything like that. I care for what we're given in the game and what we know for a 100% certainty. In the previous games we know what would be the consequences of us losing. In this game there are no big consequences. You lose and Lusamine stays in the Ultra World surrounded with the beasts that she loves so much. You can argue that ''well, you die'' but that would theoretically happen in the other games as well. You would die with the rest of the region/world.
 
The main problem with Lusamine is that the last battle against her doesn't have any high stakes.
Starting from gen 3 there were always high stakes in play. You had to stop team aqua/magma from awakening the legendaries and destroying the world. You had to stop Cyrus from twisting this world in his own image. I didn't play gen 5 but I know that it was something cataclysmic as well. Gen 6 you had to stop Lysandre form firing the Ultimate Weapon. What made those battles memorable to me is that, near the end of your journey, you are faced with the big bad and storywise if you lose than the whole region/world loses too. You can't deny that the consequences of you losing in those games weren't high. If you lose against Lusamine nothing bad happens to the region/world. There is no real risk involved.
No, I don't care for speculation like ''but the ultra beasts would come and destroy the region'' or anything like that. I care for what we're given in the game and what we know for a 100% certainty. In the previous games we know what would be the consequences of us losing. In this game there are no big consequences. You lose and Lusamine stays in the Ultra World surrounded with the beasts that she loves so much. You can argue that ''well, you die'' but that would theoretically happen in the other games as well. You would die with the rest of the region/world.

The consequence is Lillie and Gladion never getting their mother back, and then having to live the rest of their lives knowing that somewhere their mother is being insane. It's meant to be emotional instead of apocalyptic.
 

XXD17

Draco rex
The main problem with Lusamine is that the last battle against her doesn't have any high stakes.
Starting from gen 3 there were always high stakes in play. You had to stop team aqua/magma from awakening the legendaries and destroying the world. You had to stop Cyrus from twisting this world in his own image. I didn't play gen 5 but I know that it was something cataclysmic as well. Gen 6 you had to stop Lysandre form firing the Ultimate Weapon. What made those battles memorable to me is that, near the end of your journey, you are faced with the big bad and storywise if you lose than the whole region/world loses too. You can't deny that the consequences of you losing in those games weren't high. If you lose against Lusamine nothing bad happens to the region/world. There is no real risk involved.
No, I don't care for speculation like ''but the ultra beasts would come and destroy the region'' or anything like that. I care for what we're given in the game and what we know for a 100% certainty. In the previous games we know what would be the consequences of us losing. In this game there are no big consequences. You lose and Lusamine stays in the Ultra World surrounded with the beasts that she loves so much. You can argue that ''well, you die'' but that would theoretically happen in the other games as well. You would die with the rest of the region/world.

You see, it's actually that aspect that made me like these games even more. It didn't focus on some evil plot that has been blown to absurdly monumental proportions for the sake of urgency. Even though the ultra beast invasion was there, it took second seat to the character struggle that was actually he focus of this story. In a way, that made the story more relatable and impressionable for me. The story's main focus was on Lillie and how she overcomes her own weakness while finding resolution with her mother. We, as the protagonist, are just there for the ride and to the "dirty work". I felt more from experiencing this type of touching story rather than saving the world yet again from another random person's overinflated megalomania. It's a different way to tell a different kind of story while still not straying too far from the formula and I really appreciate that.
 
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clbgolden12

Alolan (and soon to be Galarian) trainer
The main problem with Lusamine is that the last battle against her doesn't have any high stakes.
Starting from gen 3 there were always high stakes in play. You had to stop team aqua/magma from awakening the legendaries and destroying the world. You had to stop Cyrus from twisting this world in his own image. I didn't play gen 5 but I know that it was something cataclysmic as well. Gen 6 you had to stop Lysandre form firing the Ultimate Weapon. What made those battles memorable to me is that, near the end of your journey, you are faced with the big bad and storywise if you lose than the whole region/world loses too. You can't deny that the consequences of you losing in those games weren't high. If you lose against Lusamine nothing bad happens to the region/world. There is no real risk involved.
No, I don't care for speculation like ''but the ultra beasts would come and destroy the region'' or anything like that. I care for what we're given in the game and what we know for a 100% certainty. In the previous games we know what would be the consequences of us losing. In this game there are no big consequences. You lose and Lusamine stays in the Ultra World surrounded with the beasts that she loves so much. You can argue that ''well, you die'' but that would theoretically happen in the other games as well. You would die with the rest of the region/world.
I've played the gen 5 games. I guess if you lose in the sequels then the region gets frozen over, but in the first games the stakes weren't high. I guess Ghetsis was planning to take over the world using the box legend but he wouldn't have gotten far trying to rule the planet using one Pokémon.

But back to these games, the Ultra Beasts coming and destroying the region isn't speculation. The Ultra Beasts do come to the world and the post-game is even centered around finding them.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
The UBs in the post-game are supposedly universe-destroying monstrosities, seeing that the Fallers exist.
 
You see, it's actually that aspect that made me like these games even more. It didn't focus on some evil plot that has been blown out of proportion for the sake of urgency. Even though the ultra beast invasion was there, it took second seat to the character struggle that was actually he focus of this story. In a way, that made the story more relatable and impressionable for me. The story's main focus was on Lillie and how she overcomes her own weakness while finding resolution with her mother. We, as the protagonist, are just there for the ride and to the "dirty work". I felt more from experiencing this type of touching story rather than saving the world yet again from another random person's overinflated megalomania. It's a different way to tell a different kind of story while still not straying too far from the formula.

Yes! Exactly what I'm trying to say! High stakes may be fun, but what I really soak up in a story is the emotions and the characterisation. BW did a similar thing, only in those games the stakes were raised a bit more and the impact on specific characters was slightly lowered. I find that we don't have to get an apocalypse for the world. All we need is enough development for the battle to matter.
 

clbgolden12

Alolan (and soon to be Galarian) trainer
The UBs in the post-game are supposedly universe-destroying monstrosities, seeing that the Fallers exist.
It was never mentioned that they destroyed any universes.

But yeah, they are pretty vicious. They outright killed a Faller in the past...
 

cl94

Well-Known Member
You see, it's actually that aspect that made me like these games even more. It didn't focus on some evil plot that has been blown to absurdly monumental proportions for the sake of urgency. Even though the ultra beast invasion was there, it took second seat to the character struggle that was actually he focus of this story. In a way, that made the story more relatable and impressionable for me. The story's main focus was on Lillie and how she overcomes her own weakness while finding resolution with her mother. We, as the protagonist, are just there for the ride and to the "dirty work". I felt more from experiencing this type of touching story rather than saving the world yet again from another random person's overinflated megalomania. It's a different way to tell a different kind of story while still not straying too far from the formula and I really appreciate that.

It really goes back to the Gen I/II formula more than anything and I don't mind that one bit. Yeah, the character struggle is new, but it's far less absurd than the "destroy everyone else" mentality we've been seeing since RSE. The apocalypse crap got cliché in Gen IV and they ran with it for three generations longer than they needed to.
 

Conquering Storm

Driver of the Aegis
The main problem with Lusamine is that the last battle against her doesn't have any high stakes.

The thing about that last battle is that, up until I came onto this thread today, I hadn't even though about the actual stakes because it feels like such a high-stakes battle. You're up against an insane woman fused with an other-dimensional symbiont. The pre-battle argument between Lillie and Lusamine cuts pretty deep. And all of this takes place in an alternate universe, to boot.
 

Italianbaptist

Informed Casual
I'm kinda surprised with how little I was affected by the scene following Lusamine's defeat. It hit me a lot harder when Lillie was talking about the good times she had with her mother when she was younger on Exeggutor Island.
 

LinksOcarina

The true master
It is worth mentioning the majority of the Aether grunts are not evil, just following orders. The majority of them are good guys.

I kind of wish they emphasized that more...

Problem is it's such a rush-job

The thing about that last battle is that, up until I came onto this thread today, I hadn't even though about the actual stakes because it feels like such a high-stakes battle. You're up against an insane woman fused with an other-dimensional symbiont. The pre-battle argument between Lillie and Lusamine cuts pretty deep. And all of this takes place in an alternate universe, to boot.


It feels artificial to me. Lusamine is insane but really is not a threat- the only reason we go to the other world to confront her is due to Lillie.

It's a personal battle vs a high stakes one which I like, but it feels like they were trying to have their cake and eat it too. It felt epic in the most basic sense without really reaching that epic height. I will say the words exchanged by Lillie are great, but the battle itself felt flat, and Lusamine's motivations come off as one-dimensional due to her insane selfishness.

It didn't have any real impact for me. Lillie's arc is great, but our involvement in it is too passive, and the storyline over-compensates by throwing in inter-dimensional beings to spice it up and keeping the characters one note for the entire run. There is little nuance here...Lillie and Gladion are very two-dimensional.
 
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diakyu

Well-Known Member
She's a threat to herself, that's the point. Lillie is saving her. Highly disagree the characters are one note unless you just describe Lillie and Gladion as "just want to save their mom".
 

Lizzard

Master Wannabe
Now that we know that Lusamine and Pheromosa doesn't have anything in common, why do they look so much alike? And Xurkitree/Guzma, Nihilego/Lillie?
 

BlitzGirl41

Well-Known Member
As others have pointed out, the "threat" in Sun/Moon is more personal, even if there is the risk of world destruction present. I actually liked that they changed the focus in this gen, after so many apocalyptic plots. I also like how the personal story brought up a lot of "dark" material for what people may consider a "kid's" game. That whole conversation with Lusamine in Ultra Space felt like something many children (either youth or adult) could relate to.
 
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