Team Skull, Aether Foundation and Plot Discussion Thread [Contains Story Spoilers]

[shadowF]

I think it would be cool if in the future there would be a rivalry between Gladion and Steven in which of their companies is better. Like Gladion who is now the president of Aether Foundation vs Steven and the Devon Corporation.

 

[cl94]

Kukui says the wormholes are what gives Z-Crystals their power. Being as the crystals are there for generations before the game, Devon didn't cause them.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

I think it would be cool if in the future there would be a rivalry between Gladion and Steven in which of their companies is better. Like Gladion who is now the president of Aether Foundation vs Steven and the Devon Corporation.

XD lol I would pay to see that. Imagine if Stars mentioned it... that would be pretty funny.

 

[Ophie]

They are talking so much about Kanto in the game that I assume it will be possible to go there in the sequels. It would fit with the end of the story.

I doubt it too. There's an in-universe reason for it, which is that Alola has a substantial Kanto immigrant population, and as a result Kanto culture and Kanto Pokémon permeate Alolan culture. That's pretty much all there is to it.

 

[Legendary Dreams]

I realized this when I was reviewing Lusamine as a character, but the reason I feel that the main story didn't match up BW's is the dissonance between generations of characters in the story. Sure, you got along very well with characters your age and I got the whole idea to rescue Lusamine was a more personal one rather than "Stop Leader from World Domination", but they didn't build that up between the generations very well, hence Lusamine felt very isolated. BW had the Gym Leaders (whom are mostly composed of adults) turn up to stop Plasma and your friendly interactions with them contrasted all of Ghetsis's evil, whereas in SM, it just felt like a ragtag bunch of kids grouping together with no contrast in the overworld.

 

[goodpeople25]

I realized this when I was reviewing Lusamine as a character, but the reason I feel that the main story didn't match up BW's is the dissonance between generations of characters in the story. Sure, you got along very well with characters your age and I got the whole idea to rescue Lusamine was a more personal one rather than "Stop Leader from World Domination", but they didn't build that up between the generations very well, hence Lusamine felt very isolated. BW had the Gym Leaders (whom are mostly composed of adults) turn up to stop Plasma and your friendly interactions with them contrasted all of Ghetsis's evil, whereas in SM, it just felt like a ragtag bunch of kids grouping together with no contrast in the overworld.

Not trying to invalidate your view just mention a couple points.

Things can and do happen in the background (that you might miss more easily) that add to the plot and I think they kinda did do some things more subtle than average in this game. (Stuff that's come up for me include stuff with Hau mentioning finally beating Hala going all out in one of his title defence dialogues, and Hapu mentioned fighting an UB that was probaly Guzzlord and character bits within that)

Yeah they made rescuing Lusamine more personal it's a change and that means it's not necessarily going to play the same role, (that kinda goes for general stuff as well) like what your describing seems to be a climax of the game where strong trainers of the region can take part. (Which I think can be said to be in most of the games and that the gymleaders' appearance in N's castle is a shining example of such) While the ultra space stuff does fit some of the stuff those moments have (involving the main villan, the box legend,ect) I think that moment would and did actually go to the aether paradise raid. It's done differently and more subtlety but the UB release and the kahuna's involvement in that at the end of that raid seem to fit the intent of those moments imo.

 

[Wryteous]

I just came up with a little theory.

Zinnia said that the portal device made by the Devon Corporation would create a portal that might lead to another universe. The Ultra Wormholes are portals that can stretch between timelines. Similarities much? If the portal device was going to be used to recreate some kind of a Ultra Wormhole, this could possibly mean that the energy given from an Ultra Wormhole is infinity energy, seeing as that's what is used to create the portal device. By extension, this means that the UBs, plus any Pokemon to have gone through effects like Lusamine's, normal totem Pokemon and fallers all are surrounded by infinity energy. This would make sense as Pokemon seemingly bring out their power with the help of their infinity energy, and these wormholes are made by the Pokemon-like beings of Ultra Beasts, Necrozma and the Cosmog line.

Infinity energy could be the key to almost everything. Pokemon life energy, how Pokemon can be stored in PCs and Poke balls, and now how people and Pokemon can travel through to alternate dimensions and timelines.

Of course, one of the major disproving factors is that they could be trying to create a portal more like the ones Hoopa creates with its rings, but I don't see why Zinnia would mention it as a form of Sun/Moon foreshadowing (which is probably what it was) if it was simply a portal like Hoopa's. Another factor is that for this to be true, the Devon corporation must have even more resources and intellect than Aether, seeing as even Lusamine had to use a Pokemon in order to open a wormhole, which is unlikely when we look at the two groups, however this could also be just judging a book by its cover. The biggest thing that disproves it is that infinity energy could simply be a substitute for what it is actually made of.

I'm probably just thinking through this way too much. But it's an interesting thing.

I've always considered pokemon as "Energy-Based" beings so this makes perfect sense with the infinity energy. I definitely agree there is a link to it and the energy of the wormholes. In fact the more that they mention and showcase lights/colours and mention spectrums makes it all likelier.

Unlike the Z-Energy hints. I feel like Mega Evolution's actual processes are never touched upon, but hints to it can be found in the animations. Mega Evolving seems to be a pokemon raising it's base energy level above it's usual limit with the help of a trainer to reach a certain "half-life" state where their power is hugely increased temporarily before petering off like a decaying atom until it becomes a base form again. Always found it interesting how the DNA symbol for Mega Evolving flares up through the light spectrum when being performed like that.

But compared to "Z-energy" it is something different. Wormhole/Z energy seems like a pure raw state of energy that hasn't taken a true form yet and allows all pokemon who have been in contact with it to utilize it into something usable.

I just wish they went into a little more technical lore with a few of these topics in the games.

 

[Baggie_Saiyan]

So Lillie was the one who went to Kanto not us? Cool. Actually happy about that, if we're to go to another region would have preferred Kalos or Sinnoh, as someone already said the refrences to that Kanto was already too much and honestly got a bit annoying tbh. Kanto's cool for nostalgia and all but it's a pretty boring region.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

So Lillie was the one who went to Kanto not us? Cool. Actually happy about that, if we're to go to another region would have preferred Kalos or Sinnoh, as someone already said the refrences to that Kanto was already too much and honestly got a bit annoying tbh. Kanto's cool for nostalgia and all but it's a pretty boring region.

I agree entirely. The other regions seemed to hold so much more than Kanto for me.

 

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I agree entirely. The other regions seemed to hold so much more than Kanto for me.

Definitely. I think Gen 2 games sum it up without story Kanto is extremely boring. Even the lore in Kanto is boring, Mansion is the only interesting thing tbh, Hoenn was pretty bad lore wise too I admit but atleast the whether and space stuff was interesting enough.

 

[Taodragon]

Things can and do happen in the background (that you might miss more easily) that add to the plot and I think they kinda did do some things more subtle than average in this game. (Stuff that's come up for me include stuff with Hau mentioning finally beating Hala going all out in one of his title defence dialogues, and Hapu mentioned fighting an UB that was probaly Guzzlord and character bits within that)

I'd honestly argue the subtleties and background point as BW had a good amount of them as well. Things like Bianca getting badges, N releasing his Pokémon, and N's team being countered by Ghetsis all were things that are not outright stated in the game, but are alluded to if you look closer at what's going on. You find out about Bianca by going back to the Gyms and reading the statue, N's team constantly getting switched is a clear allusion to him releasing them and fits his characterization at the time, and N's team being able to be beaten by Ghetsis implies that the latter may have had designs to overthrow him once he outlived his usefulness, and there are more cases like that. ORAS also had a good amount of that as you'd never know that Archie and Shelley knew Jirachi unless you actually went into their rooms and saw the picture that detailed it, and the same with Shelley and Tabitha working at Devon Corp.

Sun/Moon has some of those, but aside from a couple things like Aether's darker innerworkings with the UB, I'd honestly say they're more based in 'tell' rather then 'show'. You find out about Hala through Hau saying as much, we find out about Lusamine through Lillie and Gladion saying as much, and so on. There's definitely background, but not a lot of subtlety in how it's delivered, it's usually explained by a character rather then us finding out about it by looking deeper into the element presented. That's not a bad thing considering the story still works with how those elements are delivered, but I wouldn't say Sun/Moon is better then BW (or even ORAS) in that regard since they also handled subtleties and background elements of their own.

 

[goodpeople25]

The I examples I brought up were also about them being more missable while still being text that was outright stated in the and that the development and resolution itself is there. The more of the point was that development itself being downplayed and getting less lines. Honestly when it comes to pacing in these games I agree some are better then others but just how you play it or pay attention can change alot on how you enjoy it. (And that some charecters are not necessarily better just easier to tell in the medium, aggressive not our friend rivals were a great choice to start with imo) But I'm not arguing that the development is good for everyone I'm arguing that it's there at all and some people might not even know.

Bianca earning badges isn't that suprising or all that subtle to me, I always figured she was collecting badges and likely read the signs, but given her charecter yeah it makes sense to confirm while her not talking about it makes sense. (More importance is probaly placed if you thought she wouldn't collect badges and doubted her already) Yes N's teams fit his character but his charecter already existed, same with ghetisis. And I love stuff like that but it merely reinforces what I already like. (Heck gladion has 3 friendship evos) Also just because subelty existed before doesn't mean I can't notice a difference in how the game is preseneted. Plus words get twisted downplayed was also used by me.

 

[Taodragon]

The I examples I brought up were also about them being more missable while still being text that was outright stated in the and that the development and resolution itself is there. The more of the point was that development itself being downplayed and getting less lines. Honestly when it comes to pacing in these games I agree some are better then others but just how you play it or pay attention can change alot on how you enjoy it. (And that some charecters are not necessarily better just easier to tell in the medium, aggressive not our friend rivals were a great choice to start with imo) But I'm not arguing that the development is good for everyone I'm arguing that it's there at all and some people might not even know.

I definitely don't disagree that it's there, but I think the issue is that it's sometimes too obscure in this regard. Hau is a good example of that as we only learn about him beating Hala in passing during some of the dialogue with the Title Defense and it's not given as much weight, so it kind of takes away from his development since it's pretty limited in what the dialogue can tell us about it.

Bianca earning badges isn't that suprising or all that subtle to me, I always figured she was collecting badges and likely read the signs, but given her charecter yeah it makes sense to confirm while her not talking about it makes sense. (More importance is probaly placed if you thought she wouldn't collect badges and doubted her already) Yes N's teams fit his character but his charecter already existed, same with ghetisis. And I love stuff like that but it merely reinforces what I already like. (Heck gladion has 3 friendship evos) Also just because subelty existed before doesn't mean I can't notice a difference in how the game is preseneted. Plus words get twisted downplayed was also used by me.

Hm, I kind of disagree with Bianca since it's a little thing that's never stated, but being able to go back and see "oh hey, she was getting them!" was a nice little thing about her character and added a bit more to her despite that. So it's a subtlety in the sense that it's an element about the character that isn't known unless looked for and understood. As for N and Ghetsis (and Gladion), if I understand your point correctly (and I apologize if I'm offbase here) I think that's more a difference in implementation of the subtlety rather then them not being one. We do know their characters (Ghetsis later then the other two), but it's the thing that is never outright stated in the game and is just placed in as a implication of their characterization. I don't think it's too different from Hau saying he finally beat Hala as his best other then the games not clearly having it said outright.

And if you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by the difference in how they're presented?

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

It just occurred to me how much Lillie and Lusamine are like Rapunzel and Mother Gothel in Tangled.

Slightly dysfunctional? Check. Will to keep the daughter with the mother? Check. Daughter runs away? Check. Beauty plays a factor? Check. Daughter is blonde? Check. Daughter goes on an adventure with someone? Check. Mother search for daughter for a good amount of plot? Check. Mother evil? Ohhhh, check.

 

[goodpeople25]

Oh yeah it's mostly implementation but it's still more of a reinforcement to me in those cases (and a bit more so than say friendship evolutions, I don't think N's would work without context and i remember it being debated anyway though that was also cause 1 might of bern kept)
Just how the game's story is told overall seems a bit different though in some ways building on from previous ones, I think this was the first new main series game to even have a scene that cutsaway from us. (And the scene I remember from Oras while fine was not really it's won scene) Looking back this release alot of story telling tools I've seen in video games aren't really here.

 

[Ophie]

Bianca earning badges isn't that suprising or all that subtle to me, I always figured she was collecting badges and likely read the signs, but given her charecter yeah it makes sense to confirm while her not talking about it makes sense. (More importance is probaly placed if you thought she wouldn't collect badges and doubted her already) Yes N's teams fit his character but his charecter already existed, same with ghetisis. And I love stuff like that but it merely reinforces what I already like. (Heck gladion has 3 friendship evos) Also just because subelty existed before doesn't mean I can't notice a difference in how the game is preseneted. Plus words get twisted downplayed was also used by me.

Gladion's fourth Pokémon is a trade evolution too, indicating that he found someone to trade and trade back to get his Sneasel to evolve.

I like these little nods to give you more insight into characters based on what Pokémon they have. The clearest example is Guzma's Golisopod. If you've ever tried to train a Wimpod to evolve it, you know it's not easy--it takes a tremendous amount of perseverence and dedication, and that speaks volumes about that Pokémon in the ownership of a man whose distinguishing characteristics are his short temper and in-your-face attitude.

It just occurred to me how much Lillie and Lusamine are like Rapunzel and Mother Gothel in Tangled.

Slightly dysfunctional? Check. Will to keep the daughter with the mother? Check. Daughter runs away? Check. Beauty plays a factor? Check. Daughter is blonde? Check. Daughter goes on an adventure with someone? Check. Mother search for daughter for a good amount of plot? Check. Mother evil? Ohhhh, check.

Both of them are also pretty typical depictions of parental abuse at the psychological level. Well, besides the blonde part and the adventure part. I don't mean to downplay it, nor do I mean it's common, but when you have psychological abuse done by a mother to a daughter, it pretty often plays out in this way.

 

[RedJirachi]

So far most Pokemon villains have or are bad parents
* Giovanni abandoned his son after you beat him and gave him a major complex
* Cyrus' parents put far too high standards on their son and were cold. His grandad tried to get involved but never was able to
* N's adoptive father is Ghetsis, who used him as a tool to take over Unova because he's an egomaniac sociopath. His biological parents either died really early or abandoned him in the woods
* Guzma's dad is heavily implied to have beat him with golf clubs
* Lusamine is Ragyo Kiryuin

 

[goodpeople25]

Major complex of what? I could guess but I can think of a couple that fit and I'm genuinely curious.

And yeah I thought they were implying Guzma once raising a wimpod as well.

 

[Aetius]

So far most Pokemon villains have or are bad parents
* Giovanni abandoned his son after you beat him and gave him a major complex
* Cyrus' parents put far too high standards on their son and were cold. His grandad tried to get involved but never was able to
* N's adoptive father is Ghetsis, who used him as a tool to take over Unova because he's an egomaniac sociopath. His biological parents either died really early or abandoned him in the woods
* Guzma's dad is heavily implied to have beat him with golf clubs
* Lusamine is Ragyo Kiryuin

Except that Ragyo Kiryuin was evil by nature, while Lusamine was driven mad by a parasyte Pokèmon's neurotoxins.
I don't see why Lusamine should be called evil honestly...
But hey, I suppose people see things in different ways, which is good honestly.

 

[Tropios]

Except that Ragyo Kiryuin was evil by nature, while Lusamine was driven mad by a parasyte Pokèmon's neurotoxins.
I don't see why Lusamine should be called evil honestly...
But hey, I suppose people see things in different ways, which is good honestly.

I like to believe she was never entirely good to begin with. All the insanity and cruelty Nihilego fueled has to come from somewhere, right?