Team Skull, Aether Foundation and Plot Discussion Thread [Contains Story Spoilers]

[Pokemon Fan]

Here's a question though, if we're going to say that she's been under the influence of Nihelego's neurotoxin this entire time, then we can probably assume that it comes from one single encounter in the past. And if we're going to say that her comment to Lillie is due to having her first moment of clarity without the influence of the toxins, how does she get a clear mind so fast after merging with Nihelego? Presumably it's been years since she last made contact with the Ultra Beast, and yet its grip on her has remained for all that time. So why now, when she has only just fused with it, would she experience such clarity? In theory, the effect of the toxin should be stronger at that point than it was anytime earlier in the game, right?

Oh I'll readily admit the "she was suffering from the venom for years" theory has some problems of its own, but there are potential explanations. Namely that as a side effect of the fusion being undone the venom that had accumulated in her was largely removed (one could imagine that as Nihilego slid out of her body and undid the alterations to her hair and such it drew out a lot of the venom as well).

The sudden removal of the venom (that according to this theory she was basically addicted to like a drug), gave her a brief period of clarity (where she spoke to Lillie) but also was such a shock to her system that she fell unconscious soon after.

The whole fusion itself is so mysterious even in-universe that its difficult for me to speculate further than that.

So, I live outside Chicago. A corporation wanted to put their name in giant neon lights on their building. They couldn't get anywhere with the city council... until they hired the mayor's brother. They gave him a special executive position that paid extremely well and had minimum work required. Bingo! Suddenly, the corporation was allowed to erect their giant neon sign.

When I picture Gladion's position with Team Skull, I think of the above story. Regular Team Skull grunts took over a pokemon center so that they could make some money (a small pittance). This isn't an organization that pays everyone extremely well. They paid Gladion a huge amount of money, didn't make him get his hands dirty, and didn't even seem to care that he spent all his time training a pokemon that was far stronger than anything the boss was using. He didn't have to turn over the two other Type: Null's that he had in reserve.

Point me to somewhere where I can do no work, drive a car better than the CEO's car without being questioned about it, and still get paid an incredible amount of money. I will drop everything in my life to pursue this job. For those of you still in school, such jobs don't exist unless they are make believe jobs given to the big boss's children.

I'm not going to say them giving him that much money makes sense if he didn't do anything to pay them back, but I am saying we don't know what it was that they had him do.

On another note, I don't think its ever said that Gladion took the other Type: Nulls. He couldn't have turned them over even if he wanted to. That is he tells the Player Character that the Type: Null he gives them is different from the one he ran away with.

Gladion plays all innocent, but--seriously--why don't you question the ethics or motivation of this guy?

Because we never see him do anything all that evil or hear about him doing anything like that. In the absence of any real evidence to the contrary, we kind of have to believe he's not that bad a guy.

 

[Akashin]

Gladion plays all innocent, but--seriously--why don't you question the ethics or motivation of this guy?

Probably because the notion that he's only 'playing' at being innocent is a notion that, as far as anything actually said in-game is concerned, has no basis?

At worst, we can assume he may or may not have done some morally ambiguous things for Team Skull, and even that's just guesswork. But on that point, it's also obvious that there's a clear divide between him and the rest of Team Skull; their Grunts, or at least some of them, plainly state that he isn't a member and is just somebody Guzma likes (which could just be them rejecting him as a comrade, but the point is the same either way). Whatever it was he did for Team Skull, it likely wasn't in line with their usual activities, else you'd think there would be more camaraderie between them.

 

[emawerna]

Probably because the notion that he's only 'playing' at being innocent is a notion that, as far as anything actually said in-game is concerned, has no basis?

At worst, we can assume he may or may not have done some morally ambiguous things for Team Skull, and even that's just guesswork. But on that point, it's also obvious that there's a clear divide between him and the rest of Team Skull; their Grunts, or at least some of them, plainly state that he isn't a member and is just somebody Guzma likes (which could just be them rejecting him as a comrade, but the point is the same either way). Whatever it was he did for Team Skull, it likely wasn't in line with their usual activities, else you'd think there would be more camaraderie between them.

You missed the point of what I was saying in my last post. I meant:
1) he did little or no work AS IN HE DID NOT EARN IT,
2) got paid because he was the son of the president of the organization funding the Team,
AND
3) WHAT HE DID WRONG IS THAT HE NEVER DISCLOSED ANY OF THIS TO YOU OR TO THE INTERNATIONAL POLICE.

He's just on the team payroll for doing fake work. Hence why I told you the story of Chicago politics.

Accepting payment from the Team, by itself, means he is morally ambiguous. While it's okay to steal from a thief, it goes back to what he knows. He must have at least known that the Aether Foundation was funding the Team. He directly profited from the illicit relationship. Failing to admit any of this upfront to you should undermine your trust in him and makes him not innocent, and it means that he is involved in this Aether-Team Skull alliance much more deeply than he lets on to you.

Not 100% sure, but you didn't hear about the prepaid hotel room from him, right? You just accidentally found out about it.

 

[Excitable Boy]

1) he did little or no work AS IN HE DID NOT EARN IT

we have no way of knowing whether or not that's true

2) got paid because he was the son of the president of the organization funding the Team

you think his crazy mommy got him the job? after he ran away from said crazy mommy and stole her Null pupper?

 

[Pokemon Fan]

He must have at least known that the Aether Foundation was funding the Team.

Actually all evidence points to him not knowing. He outright says to himself after warning Hau and the player character that Team Skull is looking for Cosmog that he can't figure out how Team Skull even found out about Cosmog to begin with. Plainly the answer was that Lusamine or someone else in Aether told Team Skull about it, but he clearly didn't know that at the time, he didn't even know Lillie was the one with Cosmog.

Also he wanted to distance himself from the Aether Foundation as much as he could, why would he get involved with Team Skull if he knew Aether was funding them?

He also seems pretty furious when he finds Guzma and the small army of grunts deep within Aether Paradise. Guzma's reaction of boastfully laughing when they meet seems like he was laughing over fooling Gladion for so long.

 

[Akashin]

You missed the point of what I was saying in my last post. I meant:
1) he did little or no work AS IN HE DID NOT EARN IT,
2) got paid because he was the son of the president of the organization funding the Team,
AND
3) WHAT HE DID WRONG IS THAT HE NEVER DISCLOSED ANY OF THIS TO YOU OR TO THE INTERNATIONAL POLICE.

He's just on the team payroll for doing fake work. Hence why I told you the story of Chicago politics.

Accepting payment from the Team, by itself, means he is morally ambiguous. While it's okay to steal from a thief, it goes back to what he knows. He must have at least known that the Aether Foundation was funding the Team. He directly profited from the illicit relationship. Failing to admit any of this upfront to you should undermine your trust in him and makes him not innocent, and it means that he is involved in this Aether-Team Skull alliance much more deeply than he lets on to you.

Not 100% sure, but you didn't hear about the prepaid hotel room from him, right? You just accidentally found out about it.

1) As Excitable Boy said, we have no way of knowing what he did to earn his keep. One would assume that he was called their Enforcer for a reason, though, whatever that title means.

2) ...What? Absolutely nothing hints at the idea that his relationship with Lusamine has anything to do with his association with Team Skull. Guzma says more or less the opposite, in fact; he says that his fondness of Gladion came from admiring his willingness to run away from home and get stronger.

3) Okay? It's not like he's shown to be dodging arrest or anything of the sort; the police didn't crack down on Team Skull at all. The only thing he's guilty of there is not willingly turning himself in, but when he doesn't do so in favor of cleaning up Aether, I can't exactly fault his priorities.

I can't honestly remember whether or not there's any hint that he knew about the relationship between Aether and Skull, but even if he did, so what? He didn't tell you things because he didn't trust you, and by the time he did have any measure of trust for you, you were working together and not only was he preoccupied, but you already knew about that relationship anyway. I'm not exactly seeing what part of that can be spun into your claim that Gladion was deeply involved with them, especially when his entire M.O up until joining up with you was being as uninvolved with Aether as possible.

Out of curiosity, though, what exactly are you suggesting his role in the midst of all of that would have been? I'm honestly at a loss.

Edit: Ah, that's right. I forgot about him not knowing how Skull knew about Cosmog.

 

[emawerna]

Actually, I interpreted Gladion's question about Cosmog as fishing for information at the time I got that point in the plot. If he didn't trust you enough to admit the suspicious circumstances that he had obtained serious cash for doing "odd jobs" and not actually joining Team Skull, Why would he tell you about Aether's most secret possession in so much detail? If he didn't actually know Lillie stole Cosmog, why come to you at all about Cosmog? Was he just approaching everyone about Cosmog or (more likely) only his sister's closest contacts?

After Lillie is kidnapped, Gladion tells Hau, "So you're not quite as dumb as you are naïve" right before revealing that Lillie must have been taken by Team Skull to Aether Paradise. Remember that this is first time we've heard that there is a connection between Aether and Team Skull. This also means that Gladion was LYING earlier when he implied that Team Skull wanted Cosmog for itself.

C'mon he totally knew the entire time that the Aether Foundation and Team Skull were connected. What's different is that his sister was in danger. Did he want you to keep Cosmog safe or to keep his sister safe? Guzman could have been laughing because he betrayed Gladion by kidnapping his sister. Gladion would not have been angry about the connection between Aether Foundation and Team Skull when he thought it was so obvious he had made fun of Hau.

Crazy mom need not have given him the job with Team Skull. Guzman would've done it on his own but still based on who Gladion is.

Crazy mom had to have known where Gladion was since Guzman was in league with Lusamine and since Guzman knew who Gladion was and where he was. So, why didn't Lusamine try to get Type: Null back from Gladion even if she didn't care about getting her son himself back? No one appears to have gone after Gladion, which is weird considering how they went after Lillie.

It doesn't add up for me. How on earth do you all trust Gladion?

 

[goodpeople25]

We are (presumably) all humans, thus we are perfectly capable of thinking differently than you (yeah I know It can be hard to believe at first and that's being serious, took a bit longer to pick up on that myself) or any other person. That's how, yeah pretty simple, Why would get you a bigger answer. To start I put more weight or less weight on different things, and I'm sure alot of us use meta knowledge that of course wouldn't apply in real life.

Also never take for granted what we know, try to provide sources for at least the important points like where the amount of money Gladion gets is actually stated, if it's just plain to you but not stated in game of course we won't understand where your coming from. We can't come around to or refute your points without knowing the nature of your points.

 

[Akashin]

Actually, I interpreted Gladion's question about Cosmog as fishing for information at the time I got that point in the plot. If he didn't trust you enough to admit the suspicious circumstances that he had obtained serious cash for doing "odd jobs" and not actually joining Team Skull, Why would he tell you about Aether's most secret possession in so much detail? If he didn't actually know Lillie stole Cosmog, why come to you at all about Cosmog? Was he just approaching everyone about Cosmog or (more likely) only his sister's closest contacts?

What detail? He tells you Cosmog's name and, after he determines from your reaction that you do in fact know something about it, vaguely says that Cosmog could bring disaster in the wrong hands and urges you to protect it. Then when you next meet, he's overheard from you that Lillie had Cosmog and that Team Skull took her, and either that piece of knowledge or deductive reasoning up until then (because really, Gladion's smart enough to know that the pool of people who could have told Skull about Cosmog is relatively small) lead him to the conclusion that Lillie and Cosmog were bound for the Aether Foundation. There, a perfectly plausible explanation that doesn't involve Gladion lying to you for reasons that you still haven't actually explained and that I'm honestly still at a loss about.

After Lillie is kidnapped, Gladion tells Hau, "So you're not quite as dumb as you are naïve" right before revealing that Lillie must have been taken by Team Skull to Aether Paradise. Remember that this is first time we've heard that there is a connection between Aether and Team Skull. This also means that Gladion was LYING earlier when he implied that Team Skull wanted Cosmog for itself.

Err, Gladion says that in response to Hau deducing that she coudn't have been taken to Po Town because you (the Player) were there the whole time. Nothing about this encounter even remotely implies that he knew the whole time, and I can't really see how you could have drawn that conclusion unless you were going wildly out of your way to try and see it that way.

Crazy mom had to have known where Gladion was since Guzman was in league with Lusamine and since Guzman knew who Gladion was and where he was. So, why didn't Lusamine try to get Type: Null back from Gladion even if she didn't care about getting her son himself back? No one appears to have gone after Gladion, which is weird considering how they went after Lillie.

It doesn't add up for me. How on earth do you all trust Gladion?

Guzma outright says that he admires Gladion for having the guts to run away from home and go it on his own, so I presume he would have been fine with leaving well enough alone on that front.

But even if he did tell Lusamine, I doubt she would have cared or done anything. In her eyes Gladion was dead to her for turning his back on her love and stealing from her, but getting Type: Null back was never something she showed any interest in even when he was right in front of her. They were after Lillie and Cosmog because Cosmog was crucial to her plans; Type: Null, especially in its currently failed state, not so much.

Under the circumstances, there's nothing weird at all about nobody going after Gladion.

 

[emawerna]

Also never take for granted what we know, try to provide sources for at least the important points like where the amount of money Gladion gets is actually stated, if it's just plain to you but not stated in game of course we won't understand where your coming from.

I mentioned that before. He paid for two years rent at a motel on route 8.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

About the whole "do we trust Gladion?" Thing, I think it's safe to say we do. How do we know that? Well, here are a few reasons:
-why would Gladion have stolen Type:Null if he had Aether's morals?
-why would he help get Lillie out of Aether if he had Aether's morals?
-why would he give us a Type:Null if he knew it was so strong and could likely defeat his own?

Among other reasons already stated. Although, it would be interesting to see if Gladion was evil in a sequel... potential first child villain?

 

[Akashin]

About the whole "do we trust Gladion?" Thing, I think it's safe to say we do. How do we know that? Well, here are a few reasons:
-why would Gladion have stolen Type:Null if he had Aether's morals?
-why would he help get Lillie out of Aether if he had Aether's morals?
-why would he give us a Type:Null if he knew it was so strong and could likely defeat his own?

Among other reasons already stated. Although, it would be interesting to see if Gladion was evil in a sequel... potential first child villain?

Silver in reverse, then? Rather than a child of an evil team leader who starts off cut from the same cloth and ends up changing himself, we get one that strives to be totally separate from that and ends up being the same in the end? I can't say it's even remotely likely, but I wouldn't mind seeing it.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

Silver in reverse, then? Rather than a child of an evil team leader who starts off cut from the same cloth and ends up changing himself, we get one that strives to be totally separate from that and ends up being the same in the end? I can't say it's even remotely likely, but I wouldn't mind seeing it.

If it ever happened, I don't think he'd have the same goals as Lusamine unless another Ultra Wormhole accident happens (that'd be interesting, imagine Gladion-beast...). Maybe he ends up being manipulated by a certain someone who we still can't trust to do something? Aka Faba? Come on, even if he says sorry at champion title defence, who can really trust the guy?

Even if Gladion isn't evil, it's very likely that Faba still is, and could be the main bad guy in a potential sequel.

 

[goodpeople25]

I mentioned that before. He paid for two years rent at a motel on route 8.

Okay then I'll ask you this, what makes you think he was being payed? Because a hotel person thought so? If anything what I got out of that is that gladion had money when he was at aether paradise and just left but now has a lot less with whatever he gets out of team skull. (which isn't necessarily even bieng paid by team skull, he could get to keep any prize money he gets) And taking money (With varing degrees of how much it belonged) with him in order to live isn't really anymore morally ambiguous then taking type:null. (Considering it seems it is running out I doubt he took that much)

 

[Ophie]

If it ever happened, I don't think he'd have the same goals as Lusamine unless another Ultra Wormhole accident happens (that'd be interesting, imagine Gladion-beast...). Maybe he ends up being manipulated by a certain someone who we still can't trust to do something? Aka Faba? Come on, even if he says sorry at champion title defence, who can really trust the guy?

Instead of the Motherbeast, we get the...Childbeast?

 

[clbgolden12]

Okay then I'll ask you this, what makes you think he was being payed? Because a hotel person thought so? If anything what I got out of that is that gladion had money when he was at aether paradise and just left but now has a lot less with whatever he gets out of team skull. (which isn't necessarily even bieng paid by team skull, he could get to keep any prize money he gets) And taking money (With varing degrees of how much it belonged) with him in order to live isn't really anymore morally ambiguous then taking type:null. (Considering it seems it is running out I doubt he took that much)

Adding a little to this, Gladion's clothes don't appear to fit him very well. If he was being paid I'm sure he'd have a better fitting outfit.

 

[goodpeople25]

Well, paid in the amount that makes the line of thinking work anyway. He has some money and given Gladion's apparent situation new clothes are likely seen as a luxury especially if you consider the possibility that type:null is the cause of the rips and would also rip new clothes. But yeah good addition.

 

[diakyu]

It's worth noting in all this that finding Gladion is nothing to Lusamine compared to finding Lillie and Cosmog. Type: Null has nothing to do with what Lusamine truly wants (in fact it's entire existence is void since Lusamine doesn't want to combat the Ultra Beasts at all) whereas her entire plan hinges on having Cosmog. Nothing suspicious about Gladion being allowed to run free. The fact that Guzma has been said to care for Gladion or at least respect his struggle is enough of a sign that Guzma never told Lusamine about his whereabouts.

Guzma is the best. It needs repeating at all turns. Truly our boy.

 

[Mrs. Oreo]

Guzma was a joke as a villain regardless of his team. It was Lusamine who was the bigger threat in the long run, and she was a bad mother lol.

Lusamine definitely was a bad mom as seen when she attempted to attack Lillie when she was merged with Nihilego, tho she apparently regretted her actions. I like how Gamefreak managed to reference Bill when we found out that Lillie was going to ask him for help to cure Lusamine's ailment or something along those lines.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

I see the argument that we should have battled Lusamine-Nihilego herself instead of her Pokemon everywhere, but the fact is that if we would've fought her it would be morally wrong. Look at just after the fight, where she tries to kill the player and Lillie, which sparked people's attention for being brutal. If we were to battle her, we would essentially be doing the same thing that she tried to do. Plus, who would try to attack Lusamine in front of Lillie, who only went to save her mother? Especially as the player is Lillie's friend. If we attacked her mother in front of her, we would essentially be betraying Lillie. And quite honestly, who would betray such an adorable snugglemuffin?