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The Better Dub

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by deokishisu.123, Jun 27, 2010.

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  1. Chris

    Chris Old Coot

    Funny to see so much praise for 4Kids' music when they really stopped putting an effort in after Kanto, as evident by the lack of quality soundtracks released after 2.B.A. Master (hell, look at their..."soundtrack" for the first movie). Their openings also majorly dropped in quality after the first Johto opening.

    Comparatively, right now the two are more or less the same, save for the lack of throwing painted edits everywhere. Both have a habit of removing the original music, using cornball dialogue that didn't exist in the original and having moments of poor choices in voice actors. The main problem is that people have latched on to the 4Kids dub and refuse to accept anything else because of how ingrained it is in their minds.

    It's more or less the same with Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Kai. Kai received a better dub, yet some people refuse to accept it as it doesn't have an American-made soundtrack nor does it have some of the previous voice actors returning, despite having been majorly criticized (such as Freeza). The usual reasoning behind it is "This isn't what I grew up with." Nostalgia, if you will. The same happened with Pokemon.
     
  2. Thingamajig

    Thingamajig Well-Known Member

    Yeah, season 11 was surprisingly exciting waiting for each episode to see if a COTD or new character would get a 4Kids VA.

    It seems reading the review thread for Lost Leader Strategy that people knew Rachael Lillis would be playing Maylene ahead of time. Just out of interest, how did you find out ahead of time in this case?
     
  3. (P.O.K.E.M.O.N)

    (P.O.K.E.M.O.N) AshXSerena = Canon

    i agree with u 100% and thats why tcpi got rid of 4 kids due to the lack of effort in the show anymore and the tcpi dub puts alot more effort in the show then 4 kids did just not in terms of music. but ill see how b/w goes due to them raking in hundreds of millions or even more! will they spend any of that to develop the show more? like what 4 kids did with a pokerap and pikachu's karaoke and whose that pokemom. add ons like that really got people into pokemon. the show will never distinguish it self from the rest if it keeps a basic sub par opening and the lack of music in a show that prides it self on that feature and no catchy add on or promo or anything like that.
     
  4. MidnightMelody

    MidnightMelody Hopeful for Gen 8

    Why are the openings so short? Is it Pusa or the fact Cartoon Network seems to cut theme songs for any show these days.
     
  5. Elxar

    Elxar Well-Known Member

    If there is a good time to hire Veronica Taylor then the beginning of BW is the best time. Though its kind of stupid if she voiced other character aside form Ash/Delia. It's a new series, where there will be new characters so having her Ash will feel the series nostalgic and the new characters' VA can jump in and well have a good start again. TR will be doing minor roles so they wont matter much.
     
  6. GetOutOfBox

    GetOutOfBox Original Series Fan

    What you have to understand is that pokemon is not intended for a serious adult(/teenager) anime fan, it's primary demographic is children. I personally agree with 4Kids reasons for what seems like needless edits, because I can remember that as a young child I wouldn't know what Onigiri is, or why there are a bunch of crazy symbols instead of English letters on signs and papers. Kids like shows with characters that they can relate too, and the little things like the fact that Japan Ash probably would prefer Onigiri to a sandwich would probably stand between Ash's character and young western children. Kids are just like that. The other thing is that the dubbed show hasn't always had the greatest budget, especially after the decline of Pokemon's popularity in the west, so 4Kids mostly hired beginner VA's (most of which turned out to be pretty good), guest VA's weren't incredibly varied simply because bringing in a different VA with good experience every episode would be incredibly expensive and a waste of time since children never really notice such things (I never noticed any of the anime's flaws as a kid, such as changes in VA's, etc).

    As for bad translation, it is virtually impossible to translate a localized Japanese joke to English, and vice versa (i.e the Japanese word for what western people call a "High Five" is roughly translated back into English as "High Touch"). It's much simpler to just scrap all of the Japanese jokes and create new one. There's also the fact that sophisticated puns are going to fly right over children's heads.

    I never really understood why the paint edits 4kids did bothered people so much, I really don't care if Ash eats a rice ball or a sandwich, or if the sign in the background is written in Japanese, English or Martian. That's not really the point of watching the show.

    Anyways, if you're going to watch Pokemon, you're going to have to live with the fact it's a children's show and therefore has few puns aimed at adults. If you're the type who's super-pretentious towards English versions of anime, then simply watch the original Japanese versions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2011
  7. matt0044

    matt0044 Well-Known Member

    This. Quoted for the truth.
     
  8. Mandi.

    Mandi. 3:

    The fact that people still spend precious time arguing about dubbing on a childrens show makes me lose yet more respect for you guys.

    oh and Ash sounds like a boy? this is news to me..
     
  9. GetOutOfBox

    GetOutOfBox Original Series Fan

    There's not much else to talk about unfortunately, oh well, it's fun to discuss and see others opinions. And Ash sounds like a boy to me. I've never really heard person sound like him in real life, though it definitely sounds masculine(ish) as far as 10 year old voices go.
     
  10. Rex Kamex

    Rex Kamex Well-Known Member

    The things I want to know are:

    - Did they call it a rice ball when you watched it or something else?

    - Did the rice ball make you lose interest in watching the show? Were you constantly thinking of the rice ball after you watched whatever episode? Or did you just scratch your head and move on, enjoying other parts of Pokemon? Because if you basically did the latter, and other kids did too, why should 4Kids spend time changing the rice ball to something else?

    I admire 4Kids intentions to make things more understandable, but how far do they really have to go? A kid who doesn't know what a rice ball is could either find a way to look it up, or brush the whole thing aside and continue watching the show.

    If 4Kids really wanted, then on their website or among some books or something containing trivia about the show, they could have a little, easy to understand thing about the rice balls that Ash eats, and how they're related to Japan, and all that. Or they could not do anything.

    There still are "crazy symbols" in the episodes. Only now they're not even Japanese. It's just some made up language that nobody understands. (Not that kids would be bent over it, but... what's the point of changing it from a real foreign language to a made up one? Japan pretty much went from using Japanese writing to using more made up writing.) Also, the Japanese writing in the show would make somewhat more sense if it was more openly declared that the show is from Japan.

    I'm not saying they shouldn't ever replace the Japanese with English, but for me, honestly, the only Japanese writing I think should be translated into English is writing you actually need to read to understand the plot, not necesarily writing on random signs in the background. If they made that English, fine, but I don't think that writing needs translating.

    But would kids really be that frustrated if they saw Ash eating something that isn't American? What's more important is that they can buy games where they can catch Pokemon and train them on their own. Eating a rice ball isn't as big as catching/raising Pokemon. Eating a sandwich isn't as big as catching/raising Pokemon. And since it's already a rice ball... couldn't they just keep it as that?

    Japanese puns are one thing (and I assure you that getting rid of those is not what Chris means by "bad translations"), but food is something else.

    There's also no reason that the name of the rice ball is inconsistent. Doughnuts, rice balls, sandwiches, onions. Unless it's like an intentional running gag... =P

    It's not. And I doubt American kids care deeply whether Ash eats a rice ball or a sandwich. So like I said, when something's already a rice ball..

    Since the non-important background signs aren't the point of watching the show either, couldn't they be left alone without causing harm?

    Personally, I'd say you aren't neutral since you prefer Veronica Taylor. I don't think that's a bad thing, though. I prefer mid-Kanto Ash or so.

    I haven't really watched the Sinnoh League episodes, but I get what you're going at and feel he same way. You care more than I do, but I get what you mean.

    That's good. To be honest, I wasn't sure how likely you were thinking it'd be for her to revoice Ash. But okay.

    I agree...
     
  11. PokemonTrainerLisa

    PokemonTrainerLisa Veronica Taylor fan

    Oh, I knew because a friend of mine received an email from Rachael Lillis. ^^

    I only informed the people on the SOVA forums. To be honest, I didn't intend on telling the whole world about it, because I was supposed to keep that info a secret. But apparently, we had a "spy" amongst us (pretending to be a SOVA member), who took the new info and spread it all over the internet. =P

    I agree. I hope that TPCi is putting serious thought into which VAs to hire. It would be nice if they at least consider hiring Veronica Taylor.

    I agree again. That's true as well. =)

    Ah okay. That's good. I'm glad you understand how I feel. :)

    Yay! I'm glad you agree.

    It's nice to know there are more fans who'd like to see Veronica Taylor return. <3

    I hope TCPi changes their minds and decides to let Veronica receive some kind of role in Best Wishes. Most of the "nostalgia" fans want this (perhaps even more so for Ash, because people really miss his original voice).
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2011
  12. GetOutOfBox

    GetOutOfBox Original Series Fan

    To a logical, mature mind, food from other cultures should have no impact on the quality of the show, you shouldn't even notice it. Kids on the other hand like shows like Pokemon because they enjoy imagining themselves in the position of the main characters. Sure, I doubt kids are gonna give the show up, or let it down, or run around and desert it all because of some Japanese food, but they're going to wonder why Ash doesn't like hamburgers and what that white thing he's eating is.

    As for the removal of Kanji and Kana (yes, I know what those "crazy symbols" are, I was speaking from the mind of myself "back in the day"), I'm pretty sure most kids were (and are) under the impression the events in the anime are occurring in a fictional America, at the time, I certainly had no idea that the show was and is created and run by a Japanese studio, so the foreign language written on signs and papers might confuse some kids as to the location of the anime.

    The only thing that kind of annoyed me (though it was pretty funny) were the few episodes where 4Kids just changed the dialogue but neglected to do a paint edit of the Onigiri held by Ash and Co, so they were waving these rice balls around claiming they were Jelly Donuts/Sandwiches, in fact in one episode (I believe it was the one where Mankey stole Ash's hat), they held a riveting conversation about the quality of the Brock's "Jelly Donuts" that were clearly balls of rice wrapped in seaweed. This went on for about 5 minutes, before Mankey (thankfully) turned up and distracted them from the greatly existential philosophy of the Jelly Donut.

    Anyways, for the most part there really is no reason to make 4Kids edits a big deal, yes, arguably many could be considered pointless, but whether or not Ash is eating some Onigiri or a Sandwich should be no big deal, if it is to you, you should get checked for an OCD.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2011
  13. munchlaxboy

    munchlaxboy Catching up on XY

    I could not have said it better myself. Paint and food name edits are a GOOD thing. It's like some people think that the show is now ruined because this Japanese word is not written on a building, or that we called a food "soup" instead of "onigara jafada nushda" (note: that's not a real food).
     
  14. SOS! Its Not Healthy..

    SOS! Its Not Healthy.. He Say Whaaa...

    On my personal opinion, I seen them more the same. At least of the main part, in both versions, more or less it was faithful to the Japanese version. Even though not every single line can be translated exactly, some the rewrites or how it was portrayed sometimes was better on the dub then the Japanese version.

    And of course the BGM, most of it is tolerable. There were a couple tracks I didn't like both 4 Kids and PUSA used, but both versions, it's been always inconsistent.

    On the VA part, both have their ups and downs. 4 Kids I hated at most of how much they used the same person over and over again with the same voice they used for COTD, and PUSA's I like they had bit more variety on the humans. Though sometimes the Pokemon voices, they are plain bad. (Looking at you Umbreon) 4 Kids did voice better with the Pokemon voices.

    But then PUSA did had a shaky start dubbing the show which more notably with Ash. But now today, it sounds hell lot better than the 9th season.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2011
  15. Rex Kamex

    Rex Kamex Well-Known Member

    Like I said...

    Sure, Ash eating Japanese food would make American kids relate to him less, but I don't think it's a really significant loss.

    Generally speaking, the dubbing companies haven't done that much to say that the show is from Japan. There are some ways, though. It's mainly extra stuff. Some examples...

    - Pokemon 4Ever includes not only the Domestic trailer but also a Japanese trailer.
    - The Jirachi Wish Maker dub half-translated a Japanese song and had the full Japanese song as an extra. There was also a thing with the director of the movie speaking in subtitles.
    - The Lucario movie behind-the-scenes stuff that also has stuff questioning where Pokemon comes from.

    I'd say, for the most part, it's a behind-the-scenes thing where they do mention the show is from Japan. But then why paint edit the food also?

    There's still the made up language. Although sometimes 4Kids did edit that out. One thing I don't know is how often the foreign language has appeared in the years' recent episodes. But every bit that kids get to see counts. And...

    I said "somewhat" because to some extent a kid might wonder why the people translating the dialogue didn't also translate the actual writing, but even that I don't think would cause kids to care so much.

    If kids can get over (or not think much about) that, and they're fine with the times rice balls were called rice balls (the Jessie catches Seviper episode, for example), then I don't see what harm it'd be for rice balls always to be called what they are.

    Without kids facing really significant consequences, I mean.

    It's also like some people think some really terrible thing will happen if the rice balls Ash and co. are eating are called "rice balls", or that Japanese writing is written in a Japanese show.

    I'll say this though- if the Japanese food they're eating is a kind of soup, calling it that in the dub is fine with me.

    Also, if they just mention American food, I'm... sorta fine with that, only because you can't see the food.
     
  16. GetOutOfBox

    GetOutOfBox Original Series Fan

    Whether or not 4Kids should make localization edits (most dub studios do), it still comes down to the fact: Why do you watch Pokemon? To get an in-depth examination of Japanese culture? If so you're watching the wrong show to do so. Even the undubbed Pokemon anime is very American, so it's not exactly the best example of original Japanese culture.

    I don't know about you, but I watch the show because I like the characters and the story, not so I can eat Pocky and test my Kanji reading ability while posing for pictures holding a Katana (i.e a Weeaboo)

    It's very annoying when people go on and on about 4kids making trivial edits that really have no point, when those edits hardly effected the show at all, and to a good natured individual, provided something to laugh at (Brock's Jelly Donuts ;)).

    The things that make more sense to discuss is the reworking of the plot in some episodes, changing of important dialogue, or even the banning of episodes rather than insignificant things like 4Kids/TCPI replacing sushi with a sandwich, etc.

    Something that I've always disliked about the show is that the Japanese version of the show was often much more serious than the dubbed version. Pokemon actually were said to have died, or were about to die, Ash frequently had guns pointed in his face (the only dubbed episode that ever left the guns in was in "Here Comes the Squirtle Squad", when the people in the Mart all pulled out rifles and pistols when Ash walked in looking for a Super Potion. lol "I don't want to buy... a gun").

    I don't think the target audience (8-12 year olds) were that sheltered and sensitive that just by seeing a gun they'd be permanently traumatized, I mean in the first movie, which was G rated, Ash got turned to stone and as far as we knew was dead (technically he was I guess). That seems a lot more traumatizing than some guns (That weren't even fired).

    Japanese versions of the episodes apparently were (and are) more exciting and tense than many of the dubbed versions. The dub versions of episodes often decrease the feeling of risk in certain situations by dancing around the possibility of death by just alluding to "being in big trouble".

    As for whether 4Kids or TCPI is better, I found that the older 4Kids dubbed episodes had more frequent jokes slipped in for the older audience, whereas in TCPI's dubs such humor is fairly unusual, at least from my perspective.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2011
  17. Rex Kamex

    Rex Kamex Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying that they should call rice balls "rice balls" for the direct reason of educating kids about Japanese culture- I think they should call them "rice balls" because on the screen they're eating rice balls. And if kids were to find out the show is Japanese, they'd either learn a snippet about Japanese culture or they'll just move on and watch more Pokemon. Either way, 4Kids would've saved the effort of change anything. And some episodes, they didn't change anything.

    I do agree that those particular edits aren't the biggest edits in Pokemon. I don't think paint edits are all people who complain about the dub should talk about. I do think the fact that they have all these various names and all that stuff is, to an extent, funny. I still think they should've just called them rice balls, and I disagree that changing them to other things was a better way to handle things.

    While I don't think the paint edits are the most significant changes in Pokemon, people at 4Kids thought the presence of rice balls was significant enough to warrant a problem in some episodes.

    I have mixed and various feelings about the banning of episodes. I don't think airing them unedited is necessarily a good idea. In case enough parents care that it messes up the reputation of the Pokemon franchise in places like the US. If they kept stuff unedited, whatever.

    Barely any episode had that, even including the banned Dratini episode. Although the Dratini episode had the gun issue the most.

    Well he did come back to life two minutes later by the power of magical tears. That should've undid any trauma.

    To be fair though, those scientists at the beginning at the movie didn't survive, and of course parents were with their kids as they all watched the movie.

    When it comes to background music, that's how I feel. I haven't watched every dubbed and Japanese episode of Pokemon- but I feel that, generally speaking the Japanese music makes Pokemon more interesting and exciting than the dub music.
     
  18. Thingamajig

    Thingamajig Well-Known Member

    If every episode was dubbed as well as this week's (The Semi-Final Frontier), then I wouldn't have any problem calling the TPCi dub the superior one. TR was literally the only thing wrong this week, at least in my opinion.
     
  19. SaveOurPokemon

    SaveOurPokemon Original Series Fan

    As a kid watching, I didn't even notice the edits, and rewatching now, barely any seemed that obtrusive (I actually took a break from Pokemon mid-Hoenn, so I missed some of the admittedly silly edits in seasons 7 and 8 like the sandwich).

    Nonetheless, I don't really count that as a factor when taking into account the better dub. I guess I have a bias for the original voice cast having grown up with them, but the new cast seems pretty solid at this point, though I did prefer 4Kids' BGM for the most part. One of the problems with the TPCI dub is the extremely low volume on quite a lot of the BGM. I don't watch the show often enough nowadays to really say if TPCI is a match for 4Kids, but I do really enjoy original dub episodes when I rewatch them.
     
  20. Definitely 4Kids. It's not even remotely funny how much better they were at dubbing the series than PUSA/TPCi has ever been.

    Voice acting is clearly 4Kids. Every single voice in that dub fits better.

    Emotion is clearly 4Kids. TPCi can't emote to save their lives.

    Anything important about the series is clearly 4Kids.

    BGM replacement is tied amongst the two groups, where TPCi wins because of BW (big deal, the 4Kids replacement score is better than the BW Japanese Score).


    Let's put it this way: 4Kids worst episode or movie is like Hayao Miyazaki's Spirited Away film compared to TPCi's best episode or movie.

    Anyone who gives a damn about the series can see TPCi essentially crapped on it the minute Season 9 started to the current Season 15 dub. It's truly terrible how I have to side with 4Kids, but it's obvious to anyone who knows what this show's about.
     
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