The Butterfree/Venomoth problem

[kaialone]

Ok here is something that has been bugging me for quite a while.
I´m sure you noticed before that Venonat and Venomoth dont really look alike but Butterfree looks a lot like Venonat

See:

Thats why I belive that at one point Butterfree was supposed to be Venonat´s Evolved form and not Metapod´s.And Venomoth was probably Caterpie´s final form.
Lets have a look at Caterpie and Metapod for further investigation and while were at it lets look at Weedle´s evolution line for comparsion as the Caterpie and the Weedle families are considered counterparts:

When Caterpie becomes Metapod it covers itself in a cocoon,Weedle does the same to evolve into Kakuna.

->

->

Kakuna and Metapod dont look much like their previous forms anymore,exept for the eyes.Kakuna has black eyes just like Weedle only that Kakuna´s are bigger and more recangular and Metapod´s eyes have big round black pupils just like Caterpie´s.Im telling you that to make clear that Weedle and Caterpie evolve similar because that will be important now.

Now when Kakuna evolves into Beedrill its coocoon hatches and Bedrill comes out,Its eyes are similar to Kakuna´s only that theyre red now.Also its overall bodyhape closely resembles Kakuna´s

->

But now lets see how Metapod becomes Butterfree.Butterfree resembles Metapod in no way,neither in shape nor in the eyes like Bedrill and Kakuna do.

->

Venomoth on the other hand vaguely resembles Metapods shape and has eyes very similar to Caterpie´s and Metapod´s.

Also when you put it beside Beedrill it looks more like theyre counterparts as when you pur Butterfree and Beedrill next to each other.

(At least in my opinion,I understand if you dont agree with me on that,or anything of what I wrote so far for that matter)

So...Do you believe that It could be true that Venomoth´s design was intended as Caterpie´s final form and that Butterfree was intended as Venonat´s evolution?
;010; -> ;011; -> ;049; ?

;048; -> ;012; ?

(Also english is not my first language,I apologize if I made any spelling or grammatical errors)

 

[blaze boy]

You do know that there are lots of pokémon who look nothing like their pre-evolve form like Dragonnair to Dragonite.

 

[EzzPeon]

Metapod has nothing to do with Venomoth, but I agree Venonat and Butterfree look a bit like each other.

Like blaze boy says, a lot of Pokémon share this trait.

 

[Lorde]

I honestly never noticed that Venonat looked a lot like Butterfree until you brought it up. Now that I compare their eyes, mouths, and hands, they do sort of look similar. I don't think that they intended for Venonat to be related to Butterfree, however. I've seen tons of Pokemon that look alike but aren't related by evolution (Luvdisc and Alomomola are prime examples). It's still interesting to see the similarities, though.

 

[Lucario770]

They do look similar. However, I don't think it was meant to be that way. Many pokemon change completely when evolving, such as Magicarp to Gyrardos. Just an odd similarity in my book.

 

[kaialone]

They do look similar. However, I don't think it was meant to be that way. Many pokemon change completely when evolving, such as Magicarp to Gyrardos. Just an odd similarity in my book.

True,I know that its possible that Butterfree looking more similar to Venonat than to its prevolutions could be pure coincidence.But I have say that Magikarp and Gyarados look a lot like each other (Compare their fins,Moth and whiskers,not to mention their skin) A better example would haven been Remoraid and Octillery.But Thats the reason why I compared the Caterpie line to the Weedle line.Bedrill looks a lot like its prevolutions so I just think its strange how only Butterfree is the odd one out.

 

[Yellow Aura]

Weird, they do look similar. The only problem with your theory is the question: Why would the game creators change the evolutionary chains when it looks much better the way they would have had it? Probably just coincidence. It's entirely possible that Butterfree's design could have been influenced by Venonat, as Pokemon designers did have to make 151 Pokemon, so it makes sense some could have similar fetures to another and not be in the same evolutionary chain.

 

[Larry]

I thought Catapillar's turned into butterflies not moths...

 

[O.J. da Juiceman]

No there are caterpillars for moths too.

In fact, this one looks a lot like caterpie (it's a moth caterpillar)

http://pixdaus.com/pics/1207065073j5iEqv3.jpg

I also have a theory that Gyarados was suppose to be a water-type dragon and that Dragonair had a split evolution between Gyarados and Dragonite. That would explain why Dratini/Dragonair are so serpentine and aquatic looking. Also, if you look at Dragonite's "antennae" they look like the garbles on Gyarados's mouth but standing upright. It would make sense in terms of the flying dragon/ water dragon sort of rivalry. Also notice that Dragonite is orangish with blue wings while Gyarados is blue with an orangish underbelly. Lastly, and perhaps the most coincidentally, Dratini's "ears" sort of look like the spikes on Gyarados's back. I'm guessing the idea was ditched because with Gyarados's stats, and no real counters in the first gen., a water/dragon type may have been too broken.

Edit: Sorry the link doesn't work, but it's called a "puss moth" caterpillar is you want to google it.
I know it's all conjecture, but it's something I found myself pondering.

 

[blaze boy]

I also have a theory that Gyarados was suppose to be a water-type dragon and that Dragonair had a split evolution between Gyarados and Dragonite. That would explain why Dratini/Dragonair are so serpentine and aquatic looking. Also, if you look at Dragonite's "antennae" they look like the garbles on Gyarados's mouth but standing upright. It would make sense in terms of the flying dragon/ water dragon sort of rivalry. Also notice that Dragonite is orangish with blue wings while Gyarados is blue with an orangish underbelly. Lastly, and perhaps the most coincidentally, Dratini's "ears" sort of look like the spikes on Gyarados's back. I'm guessing the idea was ditched because with Gyarados's stats, and no real counters in the first gen., a water/dragon type may have been too broken.

That Theory is wrong.

 

[Karpi]

I was going to mention that Venonat and Butterfree also use the same coloration, but then I remembered that the switch would have happened back in the colorless and distorted sprite world of Red/Green

 

[President People]

Cry Similarities

I´m sure you noticed before that Venonat and Venomoth dont really look alike but Butterfree looks a lot like Venonat

It's interesting, but I'd say Yellow Aura's theory is about right. I haven't seen many similarities like this, but many 1st Gen Pokemon's cries sound alike.
For example:

Charizard - Rhyhorn
Caterpie - Butterfree - Goldeen
Pidgeot - Chansey
Ekans - Magikarp
Jigglypuff - Poliwag - Ditto
Wigglytuff - Poliwhirl
Vileplume - Aerodactyl
Parasect - Mewtwo
Venemoth - Jolteon
Psyduck - Bellsprout
Machop - Omanyte
Machamp - Slowbro
Dewgong - Lickitung

I may have missed some.

 

[Lorde]

I thought Catapillar's turned into butterflies not moths...

They can turn into either butterflies or moths. I read about that here. So I suppose that a Pokemon like Caterpie could have been planned to evolve all the way into a Venomoth, but the idea is still weird to me.

I also have a theory that Gyarados was suppose to be a water-type dragon and that Dragonair had a split evolution between Gyarados and Dragonite.

Just because a Pokemon looks like another Pokemon, doesn't mean that they were originally meant to be related to each other by evolution. And while I admit that I had a similar theory in the past about Gyarados' type combination, I no longer believe that Gyarados was supposed to be a Water and Dragon-type Pokemon.

 

[O.J. da Juiceman]

It's just fun to think about imo =]

http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/ken_sugimori/original/049.png

That's the original art for Venomoth. Notice the spots on the back of the wing. Sort of looks like the circles on Caterpie's sides.

Also Caterpie and Metapod are based on the larvae/cacoon of the Spicebush Swallowtail butterfly.

Here's a picture of the caterpillar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spicebush_Swallowtail_Papilio_troilus_Caterpillar_2400px.jpg

Here's a picture of the cocoon:

http://www.butterflynature.com/images/-Black_swallowtail_chrysalis_2.jpg

Here's a picture of the butterfly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spicebush_Swallowtail_in_August.jpg

Notice the shape of the wings and the little tips the protrude at the bottom of the wings? Now compare to Venomoth's (including the spots on the original Sugimori art posted above).

 

[kaialone]

It's just fun to think about imo =]

http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/ken_sugimori/original/049.png

That's the original art for Venomoth. Notice the spots on the back of the wing. Sort of looks like the circles on Caterpie's sides.

Cool I know we cant possibly say for sure what the creators intended bfore the game as released but I still like to ponder about it.

 

[Karpi]

Wow those real life pictures look shockingly similar to Caterpie and Metapod... especially Metapod. Just wow.

 

[O.J. da Juiceman]

My only question is, if presuming the theory as true, why did the switch happen?

Was it an accident in the programming (sort of how ghost was supposed to be super-effective against psychic in Gen. I but ended up being not very effective)?

Or did the programmers believe Butterfree to be more appealing and decide to have the cuter butterfly at the beginning of the game to better charm new players (especially younger players)?

I guess nobody can really know except for the programmers... But I really wish I did!

 

[Larry]

A Pokemon as great as Caterpie can't evolve into a moth.

 

[O.J. da Juiceman]

It's just a name. Venomoth looks like a butterfly more than a moth.

 

[Lorde]

It's just fun to think about imo =]

http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/ken_sugimori/original/049.png

That's the original art for Venomoth. Notice the spots on the back of the wing. Sort of looks like the circles on Caterpie's sides.

I had never seen that piece of artwork before. Might you have others? I'm just sort of curious about that old Generation 1 stuff lol. Anyway, it's interesting to learn that Venomoth used to have spots on its wings at some point. While I don't think that's evidence of it having been planned to be related to Caterpie and Metapod, I still think it's interesting stuff.

Speaking of names, though: Venomoth's Japanese names is Morphon, which may come from the butterfly subfamily, Morphinae. That's sort of trippy.