The BW2 In-Game Tier thread!

[Tsumiki]

I've editted the OP with several new questions, removing the ones that don't need further discussion (Sprites, Approval). Keep the discussion afloat, guys!

 

[[GS]]

I agree with the available pre-E4 TM list in the op, maybe even with locations?

I think there should be a format, it'll make it easier to edit the OP if you can just copypasta, people will still post incorrectly /:

What are we gonna do about hidden abilities? Will they be factored in regular analysis or will they be listed seperately with some notation?

Just a random note, but we also need to remember in-game trades, I'm pretty sure Rotom is available and I think one other?

 

[Tsumiki]

I agree with the available pre-E4 TM list in the op, maybe even with locations?

I dunno, adding locations would make the OP much too large imo.

What are we gonna do about hidden abilities? Will they be factored in regular analysis or will they be listed seperately with some notation?

I'm skeptic about adding them, as the randomness factor in finding them is too large. I suppose Cincinno could be the sole option, because it is intergrated into the main plot.

Just a random note, but we also need to remember in-game trades, I'm pretty sure Rotom is available and I think one other?

Basically, anything Pre-E4 is eligable for tiering, so those will count

 

[Aurath8]

Base form or Final Forme?

I'm gonna go with final form, since not all pokemon are available for capture in their base form like Drifblim(excluding Hidden Grottos).

Speaking of Hidden Grottos, only 3 pokemon and Eevee are in each Grotto and you can keep respawning them indefinitely by walking enough steps, so i think we could include them.

Formatting for the actual tiering

When it comes to the OP, I think we should follow the format, but when discussing and proposing tierings in the thread we can ignore the format if we wish. Next they'll be added to the OP in the agreed format.

 

[Dragoniteftw]

I'm gonna go with final form, since not all pokemon are available for capture in their base form like Drifblim(excluding Hidden Grottos).

Speaking of Hidden Grottos, only 3 pokemon and Eevee are in each Grotto and you can keep respawning them indefinitely by walking enough steps, so i think we could include them.



When it comes to the OP, I think we should follow the format, but when discussing and proposing tierings in the thread we can ignore the format if we wish. Next they'll be added to the OP in the agreed format.

I disagree about the hidden hollows, it is simply not reliable enough because of the low capture rates


I think we should have something similar to what smogon used. As well as a pre-e4 TM/move tutor locations. Because many pokes rely on TM's alone for their moveset (starmie for example)

Spoiler: smogon location list

Aspertia City: Snivy, Tepig, Oshawott
Route 19: Patrat, Purrloin
Route 20: Sewaddle, Pidove, Sunkern, Venipede [requires Basic Badge], Audino [requires Basic Badge], Dunsparce [requires Basic Badge]
Sangi Ranch: Lillipup, Azurill, Mareep, Psyduck, Riolu
---Gym 1---
Virbank Complex: Magby [Black Version 2], Elekid [White Version 2], Koffing, Magnemite, Growlithe
---Gym 2---
Castelia Sewers: Rattata, Zubat, Grimer
Relic Path [Part 1]: Roggenrola, Woobat, Timburr, Onix, Drilbur
Castelia City: Cottonee [Black Version 2], Petilil [White Version 2], Buneary [Black Version 2], Skitty [White Version 2], Eevee
Route 4: Sandile, Darumaka, Scraggy, Trubbish [Black Version 2], Minccino [White Version 2], Braviary [White Version 2, Thursday], Mandibuzz [Black Version 2, Thursday]
---Gym 3---
Desert Resort: Maractus, Scraggy, Sandshrew, Dwebble, Sigilyph, Trapinch
Relic Castle: Yamask
Route 16: Gothita [Black Version 2], Solosis [White Version 2], Minccino, Trubbish, Emolga
Lostlorn Forest: Roselia, Combee, Heracross [Black Version 2], Pinsir [White Version 2], Pansear, Panpour, Pansage
---Gym 4---
Driftveil Drawbridge: Ducklett
Driftveil City: Zorua
Route 6: Deerling, Shelmet, Foongus, Karrablast, Castform
---Gym 5---
Relic Castle: Volcarona
[Surf Unlocked] Frillish, Basculin, Buizel
Chargestone Cave: Joltik, Klink, Ferroseed, Tynamo, Nosepass
Route 7: Zebstrika, Zangoose, Seviper, Cubchoo [Winter only]
Celestial Tower: Litwick, Elgyem
---Gym 6---
Rebirth Mountain: Skorupi, Spoink [Black Version 2], Numel [White Version 2], Skarmory, Drifblim
Stranger's House: Banette
Undella Town: Staryu
Undella Bay: Remoraid, Spheal [Winter only]
Seaside Cave: Seel
Route 14: Swablu, Mienfoo, Absol
Route 13: Tangela, Pelipper, Lunatone, Solrock
Village Bridge: Lapras [Surf spot only]
Route 11: Gligar
Route 9: Pawniard
---Gym 7---
Route 22: Delibird
---Gym 8---
Giant Chasm: Clefairy, Vanillish, Sneasel, Piloswine, Ditto, Metang
Route 23: Bouffalant, Sawk [Black Version 2], Throh [White Version 2], Vullaby [Black Version 2], Rufflet [White Version 2]
Victory Road: Golurk, Druddigon, Zweilous

 

[Aurath8]

I disagree about the hidden hollows, it is simply not reliable enough because of the low capture rates

Well I looked up the chances, and there's only a 20% chance that a pokemon will appear and there are at least 4 pokemon at every Grotto. That equates to a ~5% chance of finding what you're looking for, like Riolu. Then again, every 256 steps there's only a 5% chance that the Grotto regenerates so the process is much slower than a regular random encounter.

So yes, you're probably right. No DW abilities bar Mincinno. I also think that N's previously released Darmanitan has Zen Mode, but Zen Mode sucks so it doesn't matter much.

 

[Zhanton]

I agree with the available pre-E4 TM list in the op, maybe even with locations?

I agree, the pre-E4 TM list sounds extremely useful, as does a location list.

I dunno, adding locations would make the OP much too large imo.

They are pretty useful... maybe if the pre-E4 TM list and location list were written out on a Google Doc, we could link to those lists from the thread?

What are we gonna do about hidden abilities? Will they be factored in regular analysis or will they be listed seperately with some notation?

I'm skeptic about adding them, as the randomness factor in finding them is too large. I suppose Cincinno could be the sole option, because it is intergrated into the main plot.

Pretty much this. It's sort of impractical to tier Hidden Grotto Pokemon imo since it's so difficult to find them (as shown by Aurawarrior's post) and these tiers are for ingame, where I doubt people are going to spend half an hour or even an hour (or more?) trying to get a Pokemon with a hidden ability.

I'm gonna go with final form, since not all pokemon are available for capture in their base form like Drifblim(excluding Hidden Grottos).

Yeah I agree with this, also since it allows us to tier Pokemon that evolve by trading separately, such as Conkeldurr and Gurdurr (because Conkeldurr might be High, but Gurdurr Low), etc.

I think there should be a format, it'll make it easier to edit the OP if you can just copypasta, people will still post incorrectly /:

When it comes to the OP, I think we should follow the format, but when discussing and proposing tierings in the thread we can ignore the format if we wish. Next they'll be added to the OP in the agreed format.

Which format have we got in mind?

I think we should have something similar to what smogon used. As well as a pre-e4 TM/move tutor locations. Because many pokes rely on TM's alone for their moveset (starmie for example)

Spoiler: smogon location list

Aspertia City: Snivy, Tepig, Oshawott
Route 19: Patrat, Purrloin
Route 20: Sewaddle, Pidove, Sunkern, Venipede [requires Basic Badge], Audino [requires Basic Badge], Dunsparce [requires Basic Badge]
Sangi Ranch: Lillipup, Azurill, Mareep, Psyduck, Riolu
---Gym 1---
Virbank Complex: Magby [Black Version 2], Elekid [White Version 2], Koffing, Magnemite, Growlithe
---Gym 2---
Castelia Sewers: Rattata, Zubat, Grimer
Relic Path [Part 1]: Roggenrola, Woobat, Timburr, Onix, Drilbur
Castelia City: Cottonee [Black Version 2], Petilil [White Version 2], Buneary [Black Version 2], Skitty [White Version 2], Eevee
Route 4: Sandile, Darumaka, Scraggy, Trubbish [Black Version 2], Minccino [White Version 2], Braviary [White Version 2, Thursday], Mandibuzz [Black Version 2, Thursday]
---Gym 3---
Desert Resort: Maractus, Scraggy, Sandshrew, Dwebble, Sigilyph, Trapinch
Relic Castle: Yamask
Route 16: Gothita [Black Version 2], Solosis [White Version 2], Minccino, Trubbish, Emolga
Lostlorn Forest: Roselia, Combee, Heracross [Black Version 2], Pinsir [White Version 2], Pansear, Panpour, Pansage
---Gym 4---
Driftveil Drawbridge: Ducklett
Driftveil City: Zorua
Route 6: Deerling, Shelmet, Foongus, Karrablast, Castform
---Gym 5---
Relic Castle: Volcarona
[Surf Unlocked] Frillish, Basculin, Buizel
Chargestone Cave: Joltik, Klink, Ferroseed, Tynamo, Nosepass
Route 7: Zebstrika, Zangoose, Seviper, Cubchoo [Winter only]
Celestial Tower: Litwick, Elgyem
---Gym 6---
Rebirth Mountain: Skorupi, Spoink [Black Version 2], Numel [White Version 2], Skarmory, Drifblim
Stranger's House: Banette
Undella Town: Staryu
Undella Bay: Remoraid, Spheal [Winter only]
Seaside Cave: Seel
Route 14: Swablu, Mienfoo, Absol
Route 13: Tangela, Pelipper, Lunatone, Solrock
Village Bridge: Lapras [Surf spot only]
Route 11: Gligar
Route 9: Pawniard
---Gym 7---
Route 22: Delibird
---Gym 8---
Giant Chasm: Clefairy, Vanillish, Sneasel, Piloswine, Ditto, Metang
Route 23: Bouffalant, Sawk [Black Version 2], Throh [White Version 2], Vullaby [Black Version 2], Rufflet [White Version 2]
Victory Road: Golurk, Druddigon, Zweilous

That list is incomplete. For one, it's missing the Baltoy line as well as the Vulpix line and Corsola I believe, so we'll need to look through it to make sure it's accurate and fix it up, although the layout is great in that it tells us which Pokemon are available when.


Also, have we decided on whether or not we're splitting up the Mid-tier into Upper- and Lower-Mid? iirc it seemed pretty even with as many people supporting the split of the Mid-tier as those against it; nonetheless my reasoning for supporting the Mid-tier being split is shown on the previous page.

 

[Tsumiki]

Alright, it seems that we've come to a general agreement on everything save the Mid-Tier split up. Feel free to add something else on the topic, or just anything that think would make tiering much more simple.

 

[Zhanton]

Alright, it seems that we've come to a general agreement on everything save the Mid-Tier split up. Feel free to add something else on the topic, or just anything that think would make tiering much more simple.

And also we haven't worked out what we're adding to the OP, I think.

Regarding the mid-tier split, as I said in previous posts I'm in favour of it being split into upper- and lower-mid due to the fact that 1) the smogon tiering process didn't split up Mid and they ended up with a very unbalanced tier and 2) if in the future we decide there's no need for the split, it's far easier to merge the upper- and lower-mid tiers than to split the mid tier into two if we find in the future we do need the split.

 

[Vandslaux]

Let's get this started, shall we?

Zorua
Available right before Clay
Grows like a rocket
Gets Snarl right away
High tier

Magnemite
Available right before Roxie
Feeds on Roxie exp unless challenge mode vs Grimer
Amazing typing
Metal Sound/T-Wave + Electro Ball wrecks everything

Top tier

Oshawott
Starter
Does well vs Clay, but that's it
Mediocre overall
Low tier

DW Mincinno
Available after Elesa (?) (Can the hidden grotto be accessed prior to Elesa? I only tried after)
Epic, just epic
Amazing coverage and power
High tier

Gliscor won't be accurate because I traded Gligar over after beating Cheren.

Also, regarding the missing first appearance locations: Vulpix is Abundant Shrine, Baltoy is Relic Castle, and Corsola is Segaiha City surfing/fishing idk. Also missing Bronzong, which is Abundant Shrine.

 

[Zhanton]

^ we're not tiering yet, since 1) there are still things to be discussed/agreed upon (listed in the posts above yours) and 2) a separate thread will be posted for the actual tiering:

Well, kinda. This thread is more about me getting the opinion of the general public (you guys!) before publishing the thread.

Your enthusiasm is great though, but we need to iron out the creases before we can tier. Soooo, any thoughts on my post two posts up? ^^;

 

[[GS]]

And also we haven't worked out what we're adding to the OP, I think.

Regarding the mid-tier split, as I said in previous posts I'm in favour of it being split into upper- and lower-mid due to the fact that 1) the smogon tiering process didn't split up Mid and they ended up with a very unbalanced tier and 2) if in the future we decide there's no need for the split, it's far easier to merge the upper- and lower-mid tiers than to split the mid tier into two if we find in the future we do need the split.

Ok, after some thought I agree with splitting tiers, it'll lessen the size of Mid and give us a bit more discussion.

As for what's in the op, I think it should look a bit like this:

Pokémon:
Ability:
Availability:
Moves:
Details:

Maybe put the details in spoilers...

I was also thinking that the person who first nominates the Pokemon for tiering should be the one to post the final product, after it has been discussed obvs, and have their details quoted in the OP analysis. This would be a little nod to the user, and it would save Steph some time.

 

[Tsumiki]

^I'm kinda iffy on this, as there will inevitablly be times when a newb will suggest a tiering. And we all know how the newbs love listening to us.

 

[Vandslaux]

OK. Next time I play through BW2, I'm using Growlithe/Magnemite/Vaporeon/Mamoswine/Electivire (trade over Electirizer or wait until I find it?)/Volcarona. Will post results.

 

[General Nonsense]

Say you breed a pokemon (such as Deino) and then trade it over to the game at the beginning so that you have it from the start. How will that be accounted for? Obviously in that case, when you can catch it won't be relavent in determining tier. But how else will that affect tier? Or are the tiers assuming you don't use trades so you have something at the beginning of the game?

 

[Tsumiki]

We're tiering assuming the games are self contained, which means no trading or whatnot. That should answer both of your questions.

 

[Dragoniteftw]

I'm itching for this thread to start up, what else needs sorting?

 

[Aurath8]

^I'm kinda iffy on this, as there will inevitablly be times when a newb will suggest a tiering. And we all know how the newbs love listening to us.

Chances are if a newb suggests a tiering it won't gain approval from others anyway, so I don't think this will be problem.

Pokémon:
Ability:
Availability:
Moves:
Details:

Looks good, apart from moves. Pokemon learn about 50-90ish moves each, and that would make the OP massive. We could just link them to the pokemon's pokedex entry on the main site.

Also shall we recomend movesets for each pokemon by linking this with the Singles Rates thread?

 

[Zhanton]

I'm liking the format you posted, Joe, as well as the linking to the Serebii Dex as well as the singles rate thread (assuming there's a move set for the Pokemon); we can link to the appropriate post in the singles rate thread (either A-L or M-Z) and modify the URL to have it highlight the Pokemon in question, if that makes sense.

Also, maybe we can add Stats to the format, since a Pokemon could have a huge movepool and be available early but have poor attacking stats or a poor speed which holds it back.

 

[Vandslaux]

By self contained, do you also mean no trade evolutions? Obviously, this also means Leafeon/Glaceon are ineligible for tiering, as Pinwheel Forest and Twist Mountain are post game?