The case of George Zimmerman and deadly "stand your ground."

[GhostAnime]

If you have too many false alarms, you'll do nothing but scare the people around you. Your time is better spent on things with high likelihood, so an actual criminal act can actually be detected instead of being prejudice.

 

[Malanu]

It's not that false alarms are worse than crimes, it's just that this guy was clearly mentally unstable and paranoid.

As someone that worked security you need to be a bit paranoid, otherwise you are not doing the job right. You need to be looking for things that can be a problem and then report them to ensure security. The unstable... that is bad.

If you have too many false alarms, you'll do nothing but scare the people around you. Your time is better spent on things with high likelihood, so an actual criminal act can actually be detected instead of being prejudice.

Is it prejudice if more than 50% of crime is being committed by one or two groups of people?

 

[GhostAnime]

.. Yes. Yes it is?

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_03.html

Considering the only reason you said such an off statistic is due to prejudice.

And this is the exact problem.

 

[Malanu]

Sorry sir, but looking at your data provided, you have reinforced what I have said. Let's look at the numbers. 5,200 murders by whites, 5,800 murders by Blacks. So numerically less blacks are committing slightly more murders than whites. Of all the murders committed (15,760) 2/3 are committed by males. Add by the data provided it isn't until age 30 that white finally are committing more murders. So take that statistic and look at it, and apply the statistics 26% of the population of Tampa Florida are committing a near parity amount of crime as 62% of the city populace. Meaning something like 2 out of 3 murders are committed by...
...
...
Which group of people Ghost?

It's not prejudice if the facts support it.

 

[GhostAnime]

Is it prejudice if more than 50% of crime is being committed by one or two groups of people?

This is what you originally said. When you said two groups, you were saying black and what else?

 

[Kaiserin]

As someone that worked security you need to be a bit paranoid, otherwise you are not doing the job right. You need to be looking for things that can be a problem and then report them to ensure security. The unstable... that is bad.

No one is denying this. But the problem is, this was clearly past the paranoid and into the unstable. When it's suspected you might've been intoxicated at the time you killed someone, don't you think that's a pretty damn good indicator, whether or not he was actually under the influence of something?

Also, are you seriously trying to argue this wasn't a case of racial profiling, given all the factors we know?

 

[GhostAnime]

And by the way, it isn't 2 out of 3.

I suppose if you go young, the percentage of blacks would be higher, but if it's really split between just black and white, and only follow black people, yeah, that's pretty damn prejudice and stupid.

 

[Malanu]

This is what you originally said. When you said two groups, you were saying black and what else?

Why that would be "Other/Unknown". Because there are much more than black and white in this country.

Tampa's Census separated White into "Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin (23%)" and "White persons not Hispanic (46%)" So how was the murder data collected? Cause there is more than just Black and White in this world Ghost.

And by the way, it isn't 2 out of 3.

You are right. 63% of the Us Population is white (72%-16%Hispanic), 16% is Hispanic by the US census bureau. 13% is Black, Using FBI stats with the Census data, Just over 37% of all murders in the US are committed by 13% of the population or 5 times as many murders per capita.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

 

[GhostAnime]

Using FBI stats with the Census data, Just over 37% of all murders

Is it prejudice if more than 50% of crime is being committed by one or two groups of people?

So you were still way off... due to prejudice.

That is unless of course if you want to toss more than just murder.

 

[Malanu]

So you were still way off... due to prejudice.

That is unless of course if you want to toss more than just murder.

13% of the populace is committing as many murders as 63%... Yes I was wrong. Its 5:1 ratio instead of 3:1!!! So the numbers must be prejudice too, cause its 5 less times as likely that a white person committed murder in the US.

an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

Not me.

a person's bias is based on facts, but prejudice occurs without a person knowing or examining the facts.

This is what I am.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/bias?__utma=1.619980219.1330890041.1332616722.1332616784.6&__utmb=1.2.9.1332616784&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1332616784.6.6.utmcsr=google|utmccn=%28organic%29|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=bias&__utmv=-&__utmk=74055954

 

[bel9]

The guy is an obvious nutcase who committed a serious crime. He was a wannabe cop who couldn't make it onto the police force and suffered from hero syndrome.

This whole hoodie nonsense is really misguided though. I wish people would do something more productive rather than argue over hoodies. Wearing a hoodie isn't a crime, but when someone hides his or her face, people question why and what that individual is hiding. That is just inquisitive human nature at work. It will always arouse suspicion from strangers in public.

 

[BigLutz]

Just wanted to point two things out:

A: There is a potential witness out there saying that Zimmerman was attacked by Martin and reacted in self defense. If true then it does change everything.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-tells-police-George-Zimmerman-provoked.html

B: Race hustlers like Al Sharpton and the New Black Panther Party are turning this into a race issue, to the extent the New Black Panther Party has put out a "Wanted Dead or Alive" poster, and a bounty on his head. It seems that some cretins want to see this guy dead and will act as Judge/Jury/Executioner to get it done.

I don't know what happened, nor do I want to guess, but what I am seeing here seems to be the beginnings of a race riot that may end up with more needless deaths.

 

[GhostAnime]

13% of the populace is committing as many murders as 63%... Yes I was wrong. Its 5:1 ratio instead of 3:1!!! So the numbers must be prejudice too, cause its 5 less times as likely that a white person committed murder in the US.

Yes, we get that; but it is still irrelevant when you're talking about overall crime. Ratios are less important in this case because as a security guard/policeman, you are supposed to be searching for all crime. When you measure all crime, it is not as heavily "black" as you originally thought.

an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason

Is it prejudice if more than 50% of crime is being committed by one or two groups of people?

Pretty sure the only reason you stated that more than 50% of all crime is done by black people is because of prejudice and yes, you were wrong. Waaaay wrong.

And prejudice is just a form of bias. Calling it bias doesn't really make you look any better.

 

[Ipwnyou]

Just wanted to point two things out:

A: There is a potential witness out there saying that Zimmerman was attacked by Martin and reacted in self defense. If true then it does change everything.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-tells-police-George-Zimmerman-provoked.html

Not really. For two reasons:

1-This link is from dailymail, which is a complete joke as far as integrity goes. When they're not flat out making things up, they're skewing them horribly. All news agencies do this to some extent, but dailymail is a complete joke of a tabloid.

For instance, in this article they titled the story saying that the witness saw Travyon attack him, but reading the actual account of the story, this is all it says:

'The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: "Help, help… and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,' he said.
Zimmerman was wearing a red sweater; Martin was in a grey hoodie.
He added: 'When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.'

More on the account, which if you actually read, really doesn't tell you anything other than that there was a fight.

All it means is that there was a fight, but implies nothing about who started it.

Plus, if you read Zimmermans account (in the link I just posted),you can see how horribly unlikely his story was.

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.

Plus, he was on the phone when he was attacked. This witness was even talking to him when the attack happened.

According to Zimmerman, he just so happened to be walking to his car when this random kid attacked him, for no real reason.

Not only is his account extremely unrealistic, but it also contradicts a direct eye-witness account.

Point 2: Even if he HAD been the one who started the fight, lets be reasonable here. He was being FOLLOWED. At night. By a person who was clearly looking for a fight, as shown by the way he was talking in the 911 call.
That's a perfect example of self-defense.

B: Race hustlers like Al Sharpton and the New Black Panther Party are turning this into a race issue, to the extent the New Black Panther Party has put out a "Wanted Dead or Alive" poster, and a bounty on his head. It seems that some cretins want to see this guy dead and will act as Judge/Jury/Executioner to get it done.

OF COURSE this is a race issue. Stuff like this happens all the time. Upper class white people can get away with anything, you will never see a minority get away with **** like this, and get away without even being arrested. If it wasn't for all of this outcry and controversy, they wouldn't even be investigating it at all.

But hey, lets look at this from your perspective. This guy is pretty suspicious, he is of a different race and has even demonstrated having a violent past.

All they have to do, is follow him around and try to provoke him. If he ever tries to defend himself from the people following him, they will of course have free reign to kill him.

According to you anyway.

I don't know what happened, nor do I want to guess, but what I am seeing here seems to be the beginnings of a race riot that may end up with more needless deaths.

Of course you don't care, and neither do the police. It's not like you're in much danger of being lynched and having the murderer just get away completely scott-free, and you clearly don't know, judging from your post, but right now, there is a mountain of evidence showing that the police are letting a killer run free, and that if it wasn't for this outcry, they wouldn't be doing anything at all.


As long as we're on the topic of race, I'd like to remind everyone of another race-based incident.
Remember that black professor who got arrested after breaking into his own house, and then yelling at the police officer who came to investigate?

Isn't it funny how different the law worked in these two cases. Just yelling at a police office in your own house was enough to get you arrested when you're black, but killing a black kid isn't enough to warrant an investigation.

Heck, as I recall, biglutz, you yourself where outraged at people who called out the police on this, and yet, here you are.
Declaring your apathy to finding out as to whether or not this guy is a murderer, and expressing your malice towards those who want to see justice here.

 

[Neferka]

13% is Black, Using FBI stats with the Census data, Just over 37% of all murders in the US are committed by 13% of the population or 5 times as many murders per capita.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

Black Americans are also several times more likely to be living in poverty than other ethnic groups in the US... The effects of poverty are twofold; firstly poverty and lack of opportunity breeds crime, secondly if you are arrested for some crime you are more likely to be either wrongly convicted or more severely punished because you lack the resources to muster an adequate defence (according to Amnesty International two of the factors leading to wrongful prosecutions in the US are inadequate legal representation and racial prejudice).

Take this very case, do you really think that if the roles were reversed that the black guy would be allowed to walk away without charge? Would the police invent some bunk about the black guy acting in self defence even though he was the one who shot an unarmed victim? Or is everyone a little to eager to act on malicious racial stereotypes?

Here are a few stats from the Innocence Project:

There have been 289 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States.

• The first DNA exoneration took place in 1989. Exonerations have been won in 35 states; since 2000, there have been 222 exonerations.

• 17 of the 289 people exonerated through DNA served time on death row.

• The average length of time served by exonerees is 13.5 years. The total number of years served is approximately 3,800.

• The average age of exonerees at the time of their wrongful convictions was 27.

Races of the 289 exonerees:

180 African Americans
82 Caucasians
21 Latinos
2 Asian American
4 whose race is unknown

 

[Malanu]

Yes, we get that; but it is still irrelevant when you're talking about overall crime. Ratios are less important in this case because as a security guard/policeman, you are supposed to be searching for all crime. When you measure all crime, it is not as heavily "black" as you originally thought.

No sir. As a security guard, you investigate things that are suspicious. A person out walking in the rain alone IS suspicious to a diligent guard. IF the suspect is slowly walking past houses with a head on a swivel... even more suspicious.

Pretty sure the only reason you stated that more than 50% of all crime is done by black people is because of prejudice and yes, you were wrong. Waaaay wrong.

Not crime in general, but Murders specifically the FBI has statistical data showing that its true. No the only reason I said anything is because you posted data (I already knew) that confirmed the information, I do have to correct my statement though (I only looked at the black v white data. Blacks committed 37% of the Murders the FBI recorded.

Explain to me how I am wrong? 13% of the population is committing 37%(the majority) of the murders in the US, while 62%(the majority) of the population is committing 32%(A minority). A minority of our population is the majority of murderers. For there to be parity in the numbers White Americans would have to murder something like 3X as many people as they do now.

And prejudice is just a form of bias. Calling it bias doesn't really make you look any better.

I know, but that quote I posted, was more in line with what I agree with. Is it prejudice if the data proves a bias to be true? If I'm looking for a serial killer, I would not focus on 18 year old black males, I would look for a 35-45 year old white male, why? Because a majority of serial killers ARE 35-45 year old white males!

Black Americans are also several times more likely to be living in poverty than other ethnic groups in the US...

I realize this. I understand the problem of it too. But until such a time as minorities are brought up over the poverty level, and they commit less crimes because of that, criminal profiles will remain the way they are, because unfortunately the facts are, that statistical group commits crimes more often than any other groups.

I'm not prejudice, I am following the statistical data provided. When the data says white males are committing more crimes than anyone else, then I'll change my perspective.

 

[DiamondClass]

The media would have you believe that black teens are in constant danger from "white" Hispanic vigilantes like Zimmerman. I had to do my own research to uncover the truth. This was a rare and isolated incident, and by far the majority of the violent hate crimes are not done to black teens but are actually perpetuated by them.

The number of hate crimes committed by black teens or young adults against other minorities greatly outnumber the amount of any racial violence done to them by others. There are many recent cases of this but why does the media only concentrate on this one event? Could it be because a news story of blacks doing hate crimes against Asians, Hispanics and other groups won't get the same ratings as that of the narrative of a "white" (actually Hispanic) aggressor?

Spoiler: List of Racial Crimes

Fed up Asians boycott Black racism and hate crimes
Racist black teens throw Asian lady unto Muni track at San Francisco
Judge is soft on Black on Asian hate crimes
Racist Blacks are targeting Asian women for hate crimes in New York
Vietnamese man beaten by racist Blacks in Georgia
Many brutally beaten in racially motivated mob attack
5 Black teens beat Chinese restaurant owner to death with bricks
Racist Blacks beat a Chinese man to death
Racist Blacks attack Asian college students
Racist Blacks beat an Ecuadorean to death
Black admits to targeting Asians
Black racist beat Hispanic man to death
Black racists attack Latino family in Louisiana
Hundreds of fed up Latinos protest Black racism
Mexican beaten by 6 racist Blacks on Staten Island
No hate crime conviction for Black racist Hakim Scott
Mexican beaten by 3 racist Blacks on Staten Island, New York
Black Racism against Mexicans exposed
100 activists call to stop Black on Latino hate crime violence in Peekskill, New York
Mexican beaten by 3 racist Blacks in Brooklyn, New York
Racist Black people are targeting Latinos for hate crimes (English subtitles)
3 Black Teens Charged In Attack Of Indian Immigrant On Street
Teenager nearly killed in horrific racially motivated mob attack
Black mob riots at second waterpark
Minneapolis mother and daughter attacked by 'teen' mob
Milwaukee 'teens' brutally attack people after fireworks - July 4 weekend
Shocking large scale racially motivated attack
Mob of Teens Rob Dupont Circle Store
Elderly Walmart greeter choked in brutal racially motived attack
Arrests made in black mob beating of gay teen
Black mob beats White motorist
Blacks kill Asian woman
gangbangers arrested in hate crime roundup for targeting Whites and Latinos
Dunkin' Donuts mob attack
White College student shot in the lungs after escaping Black kidnapper
Black Mob Beats Up Marine who was rescuing a girl
Black males gun down White pawn shop clerk
Black teens kill White woman for game console
Black gang kills elderly woman
African American Teen Mobs Attack Chicago Transit Authority Buses
Random African American mobs run wild in Chicago
White man killed trying to save White woman from black attacker
15-year-old targeted in latest Chicago African American mob attack
RAW SURVEILLANCE VIDEO: Mob attack in Riverwest gas station
White Girl Beaten On A Bus By Blacks
New Black Mob Attack in Peoria, IL
Horrifying racially motivated attack caught on tape
Injured in "flash mob" attack in Philadelphia
CTV report on Racist attack on 38 year old black man in Courtenay, BC
2nd Racist Attack on St Louis School Bus in one week
Oceanside, Long Island Racial Attack
Blacks Beat Up 1 White Boy in an unprovoked racial attack
Black teen mob attacks white family
Marine, wife attacked by unruly teens at theater
Black Students Attack White Man For Eating Dinner With Black Man
Racist Black gangs are targeting White men for hate crimes in Baltimore
White Student Beaten By Black Students On A Bus
Black flash mob beats whites in Philadelphia
Black Mob Violence: "Kill All The White People"
Father stabbed and beaten by Black mob
Teen Mob Hits Walgreens On The Mag Mile
Black mob, SAVAGE attack, robbed and beat White teen in critical condition, South Carolina
Mob severely beat random White customers at a gas station
black randomly punches white elderly blind woman on bus
"Beat Whitey Night": Gang of Black kids yell "It's beat whitey night" at Iowa State Fair
White guy beaten nearly to death by Blacks for dating a Black woman, no hate crime

 

[Malanu]

The media would have you believe that black teens are in constant danger from "white" Hispanic vigilantes like Zimmerman. I had to do my own research to uncover the truth. This was a rare and isolated incident, and by far the majority of the violent hate crimes are not done to black teens but are actually perpetuated by them.

The number of hate crimes committed by black teens or young adults against other minorities greatly outnumber the amount of any racial violence done to them by others. There are many recent cases of this but why does the media only concentrate on this one event? Could it be because a news story of blacks doing hate crimes against Asians, Hispanics and other groups won't get the same ratings as that of the narrative of a "white" (actually Hispanic) aggressor?

Sorry but the FBI has records showing that the preponderance of hate IS IN FACT directed at blacks in America. As indicated here, black Americans are 4 times as likely to be the victims of hate crimes than the next entry.
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/data/table_01.html

 

[DiamondClass]

That source list any sort of incident, which could simply be allegations made by someone but never proven. For example, 124 of the Anti-Black offenders are unknown, no other victim group has the same level or disparity. It could be something as simple as hanging a noose somewhere and it will be considered a bias crime.

The same FBI statistic also tells you that for 2009 there were 1,150 hate crime offenders who were black. Compare that to 3,885 "White" offenders, which covers people of European ancestry, Middle Easterners, North Africans and Hispanics.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/data/table_09.html

Furthermore many of those crimes I listed the law doesn't like to consider them to be hate crimes even though there was an obvious case of racial motivation in part of the black perpetrators. In other words, these are the hate crimes that are not counted by the statistics.

 

[Malanu]

The same FBI statistic also tells you that for 2009 there were 1,150 hate crime offenders who were black. Compare that to 3,885 "White" offenders, which covers people of European ancestry, Middle Easterners, North Africans and Hispanics.

Yes African Americans are hated on by 3 times as many people as they hate on! Is there a correlation between that and why Blacks evidently commit 5 times as many murders? Be hated on as much as they are and see what lengths you'll go to for some justice...