The case of George Zimmerman and deadly "stand your ground."

[DiamondClass]

The point is when it comes to violent racially motivated crimes it is black youths who are doing those more than other groups victimizing them. I brought several examples in that list. For every Tayvor Martin case there are at least 10 other cases were black teens racially attack Hispanic immigrants, East Asian people, Indians or whites. But these are simply not classified as hate crimes in statistics because as a group blacks are considered a "protected class".

 

[BigLutz]

OF COURSE this is a race issue. Stuff like this happens all the time. Upper class white people can get away with anything, you will never see a minority get away with **** like this, and get away without even being arrested. If it wasn't for all of this outcry and controversy, they wouldn't even be investigating it at all.

You will be surprised how many white people in the gettos disappear because they were walking on the wrong side of town at night.

All they have to do, is follow him around and try to provoke him. If he ever tries to defend himself from the people following him, they will of course have free reign to kill him.

According to you anyway.

Zimmerman is reported to have head injuries and a broken nose, at that point its pretty much certain that he wasn't just defending himself but actually going after him.

Of course you don't care, and neither do the police. It's not like you're in much danger of being lynched and having the murderer just get away completely scott-free, and you clearly don't know, judging from your post, but right now, there is a mountain of evidence showing that the police are letting a killer run free, and that if it wasn't for this outcry, they wouldn't be doing anything at all.

Really a mountain of evidence? There is a phone call, two different witnesses, and a gun, that is essentially it. And I will remind you that Zimmerman right now is in danger of getting lynched by the race mobs, with out so much as a trial.

As long as we're on the topic of race, I'd like to remind everyone of another race-based incident.
Remember that black professor who got arrested after breaking into his own house, and then yelling at the police officer who came to investigate?

Isn't it funny how different the law worked in these two cases. Just yelling at a police office in your own house was enough to get you arrested when you're black, but killing a black kid isn't enough to warrant an investigation.

Difference here is there were no police at the scene when the shooting took place. On the other hand with Gates, he forced open the door to his house, went inside, and proceeded to scream and berate the police when they showed up to investigate why a man was trying to break open a door to a house. If the police had shown up at the scene of the shooting, found Zimmerman standing over the dead body, and then Zimmerman proceeded to scream at the police like Gates did, I have no doubt he would have been treated just like Gates was if not worse.

Heck, as I recall, biglutz, you yourself where outraged at people who called out the police on this, and yet, here you are.
Declaring your apathy to finding out as to whether or not this guy is a murderer, and expressing your malice towards those who want to see justice here.

Seeking justice? Do you honestly believe the Black Panthers would seek justice by capturing him? Do you honestly believe that they are going to give him justice? The Black Panthers, the Black version of the KKK. They will KILL HIM.

 

[Malanu]

The point is when it comes to violent racially motivated crimes it is black youths who are doing those more than other groups victimizing them. I brought several examples in that list. For every Tayvor Martin case there are at least 10 other cases were black teens racially attack Hispanic immigrants, East Asian people, Indians or whites. But these are simply not classified as hate crimes in statistics because as a group blacks are considered a "protected class".

Not according to the guys tracking crime for the country. Out of 3,199 TOTAL RACIAL Incidents of hate crimes recorded by the FBI, 2,284 were against blacks, second highest was against whites was 545 or just about one 4th as many. And if you are right, they are hating on themselves more than they are anyone else!

Seeking justice? Do you honestly believe the Black Panthers would seek justice by capturing him? Do you honestly believe that they are going to give him justice? The Black Panthers, the Black version of the KKK. They will KILL HIM.

Eye for an eye sometimes is justice, but then we have violence begets greater violence. So where should the violence stop I guess?

 

[BigLutz]

Eye for an eye sometimes is justice, but then we have violence begets greater violence. So where should the violence stop I guess?

We are not a country that allows for mob justice, and this is essentially what the Black Panthers and many others want.

 

[Malanu]

Come on Sno we haven't reached the point of having "the Running Man" on network TV... yet! I'd say put the Panthers and the Klan in a warehouse somewhere, and let them have at it till one walks out a winner, then kill bigoted jerks for the grand prize.

 

[DiamondClass]

Not according to the guys tracking crime for the country. Out of 3,199 TOTAL RACIAL Incidents of hate crimes recorded by the FBI, 2,284 were against blacks, second highest was against whites was 545 or just about one 4th as many. And if you are right, they are hating on themselves more than they are anyone else!

The statistics don't specify which sort of incidents, whether they are things like hanging a noose somewhere, drawing a swastika on a wall or a real violent attacks. Do you honestly believe there are that many violent racist attacks against blacks today considering the majority of the racial motivated crimes as evident from the news are done by blacks?

Furthermore those total racial incidents don't have to be proven and can be any sort of complaint. Any alleged incident is counted by the statistics, even those that never go to court or are investigated.

If the officer writing the report includes information about an alleged bias motivation in the report, the incident will be included in the FBI report.

http://www.adl.org/combating_hate/hatecrimes_qa/hatecrime_qa2.asp

So you can go on about "racial incidents" but you can't back it up with actual documented criminal events.

 

[Malanu]

Diamond Class your data is from a pro Jewish website so I will call it skewed in it's bias. The data from the FBI is reported and investigated crimes throughout the US, so I would hold the information as being a bit more accurate than a website dedicated to, "the ending of defamation of the Jewish people" Not that they haven't been persecuted much longer than African Americans. I probably could find documentation of racial incidents and actual documentation other than the FBI national crime reports. But who's authority do you recommend above the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

 

[DiamondClass]

ADL may be biased just like the NAACP or La Raza, but they are presenting facts given by the FBI itself. What's even more biased is the media's portrayal of the incident by only showing photos of Tayvor Martin when he was a young child and not a 17 year old, and calling Zimmerman "white" when he looks like an indigenous person from Latin America. His last name might be Jewish-German but his actual background is Hispanic.

 

[Malanu]

But how are they (NAACP or others) presenting those facts gleaned from the FBI? Presently all we have is that Treyvor was shot for (as Ghost properly put it), "walking while black." With a last name of Zimmerman you wouldn't think of Hispanic,... being fair. The law backs up Zimmerman as long as no witnesses come forward to provide testimony that he might have caused Trey to attack him first. Trey's appearance from a security standpoint rated observation, even reporting IF he wasn't known in the neighborhood. Zimmerman did everything right AFTER the shooting. Surrendered his firearm and worked with police while being questioned. Then again, if you know the law you can manipulate it to cover wrong doing. Whatever it turns out to be, I hope Justice is done in this case.

 

[Ipwnyou]

You will be surprised how many white people in the gettos disappear because they were walking on the wrong side of town at night.

And nobody every tries to pretend that those murders are just self-defense.
If you ever get killed like that, and there isn't going to be a mass of idiots on the internet claiming they did it in self-defense.
And there's actually going to be a police investigation. And I feel the need to re-iterate the fact that this case wouldn't even have that, had it not been for the all of the public outcry against this guy.

Can you imagine how differently this would be playing out if Travyon had been the one with the gun, and he decided to defend himself from the guy following him?

Zimmerman is reported to have head injuries and a broken nose, at that point its pretty much certain that he wasn't just defending himself but actually going after him.

Zimmerman leaving his house, defying police, attacking, or at least provoking a kid, and then killing him = self-defense.
Travyon Martin being attacked, and then winning the fight = not self-defense.

I really don't think you're thinking this through.


Je was fighting the guy who had been following him. No, not just following him CHASING him. Of course he was going to fight him, and if he's successful at it, then more good on him.

As opposed to Zimmerman who was "going after him" right from the very beginning.
So yes, it was still self-defense.

No matter what, Zimmerman has absolutely zero argument to claim that it was in self-defense.
It's just not a possible scenario.

Difference here is there were no police at the scene when the shooting took place. On the other hand with Gates, he forced open the door to his house, went inside, and proceeded to scream and berate the police when they showed up to investigate why a man was trying to break open a door to a house. If the police had shown up at the scene of the shooting, found Zimmerman standing over the dead body, and then Zimmerman proceeded to scream at the police like Gates did, I have no doubt he would have been treated just like Gates was if not worse.

Yeah, he didn't do anything horrible like yell at police, he just killed a black kid. Not a big deal or anything.
Not even enough of a reason to arrest him, or even investigate.

edit: it just occured to me that he DID make a point out of not co-operating with police.
When he originally called them, they told him not to follow the guy, but he insisted on following him.

And his disobediance didn't just hurt the officers feelings, it actually killed someone. And yet, he has had absolutely no repercussions for even that.

Seeking justice? Do you honestly believe the Black Panthers would seek justice by capturing him? Do you honestly believe that they are going to give him justice? The Black Panthers, the Black version of the KKK. They will KILL HIM.

But hey, they have guns, and they feel threatened.
Heck, they have even more cause to feel threatened than Zimmerman did.

Doesn't that make that self-defense, according to the Zimmerman defense?

 

[BigLutz]

And nobody every tries to pretend that those murders are just self-defense.
If you ever get killed like that, and there isn't going to be a mass of idiots on the internet claiming they did it in self-defense.
And there's actually going to be a police investigation. And I feel the need to re-iterate the fact that this case wouldn't even have that, had it not been for the all of the public outcry against this guy.

And those killings usually don't result in the killer having a broken nose and a gash on his forehead, two key facts that tend to identify self defense was a option.

Can you imagine how differently this would be playing out if Travyon had been the one with the gun, and he decided to defend himself from the guy following him?

Yeah you wouldn't hear a peep out of the media or the black community.

Zimmerman leaving his house, defying police, attacking, or at least provoking a kid, and then killing him = self-defense.
Travyon Martin being attacked, and then winning the fight = not self-defense.

I really don't think you're thinking this through.

Thing is, the minute that Travyon began to attack Zimmerman in a public place, Zimmerman had the right to react in self defense. Provoking some one does not give them the right to beat that person's face in as Travyon did.

Je was fighting the guy who had been following him. No, not just following him CHASING him. Of course he was going to fight him, and if he's successful at it, then more good on him.

As opposed to Zimmerman who was "going after him" right from the very beginning.

So yes, it was still self-defense.

Thing is it doesn't matter if he was chasing or following him, it does not give him the right to throw the first punch.

No matter what, Zimmerman has absolutely zero argument to claim that it was in self-defense.
It's just not a possible scenario.

There is one scenario that allows for it, if Trevyon attacked Zimmerman first, beat him to the ground by breaking his nose, and Zimmerman pulled out his gun and fired in retaliation

Yeah, he didn't do anything horrible like yell at police, he just killed a black kid. Not a big deal or anything.
Not even enough of a reason to arrest him, or even investigate.

Last time I checked there was a investigation going on.

edit: it just occured to me that he DID make a point out of not co-operating with police.
When he originally called them, they told him not to follow the guy, but he insisted on following him.

And his disobediance didn't just hurt the officers feelings, it actually killed someone. And yet, he has had absolutely no repercussions for even that.

Because the investigation is still on going? Or would you prefer the Black Panthers to go on and kill him now?

But hey, they have guns, and they feel threatened.
Heck, they have even more cause to feel threatened than Zimmerman did.

Doesn't that make that self-defense, according to the Zimmerman defense?

Not unless Zimmerman decided to attack them first.

 

[CptDrDigi]

It's just a black guy, who really cares?

 

[DiamondClass]

Martin was slamming Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk which made Zimmerman scream for help. That's what the first reports said quoting eyewitness who saw the event.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/27/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS55698227020120327

 

[GhostAnime]

No sir. As a security guard, you investigate things that are suspicious. A person out walking in the rain alone IS suspicious to a diligent guard. IF the suspect is slowly walking past houses with a head on a swivel... even more suspicious.

Your reply did not address the quoted line. The quoted line talks about why being 13% of the country being 30-40% of all crime is an irrelevant statistic.

Explain to me how I am wrong? 13% of the population is committing 37%(the majority)

37% is not a majority. A majority is 50.01%. >_>

Do you even understand what you're talking about anymore?

Original claim: Blacks commit 50% of crime.

Counter claim from me: That is not only exaggerated, but an assumption based on prejudice (in other words, assumed due to personal experiences/race before actually checking the facts).

1.
an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2.
any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3.
unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4.
such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.

And the difference between being more than half and 37% is huge when you're talking about an entire race of people.

I know, but that quote I posted, was more in line with what I agree with. Is it prejudice if the data proves a bias to be true? If I'm looking for a serial killer, I would not focus on 18 year old black males, I would look for a 35-45 year old white male, why? Because a majority of serial killers ARE 35-45 year old white males![/FONT]

No, the data does not support it, because 37% is not a majority.

When the data says white males are committing more crimes than anyone else, then I'll change my perspective.

Now you're just moving the goal posts. White males aren't even that far behind in raw numbers. You even pointed that out.

 

[D. Scott]

Ghost, not going to get into an argument with you there because I am horrible at debate, but am going to point out (I didn't look at whatever sources were provided, note this) that if the other rates are LESS than 37%, that make 37% the majority. Or I'm just horrible at math too.

*shrug*

Anyways, I do hope that no matter the case of whether or not Zimmerman murdered the kid or if he was defending himself, that the Florida Police is at least giving him a little protection. With this kind of national outrage, this guy is likely to have some... interestingly enough, violent crime committed against him!

 

[Maxim]

Blame idiotic American gun laws, not that "hate crime" bullcrap.

Just stop desperately searching for racism everywhere. I'm almost postive that it wasn't the thing in this case. I am by no means defending the killer, I just find it stupid that when something bad happens to a black person everyone goes like "RACISM, RACISM!". This is a sheer proof of narrow-mindedness.

Not to mention that it's offensive, because it's treating different-skinned people as if they were nothing but their skin color.

 

[Malanu]

Your reply did not address the quoted line. The quoted line talks about why being 13% of the country being 30-40% of all crime is an irrelevant statistic.

Not crime in general, but murder, It is not irrelevant when it comes to investigating murder. Also it is relevant when 13% is responsible for more than 62% As it isn't prejudice to look for a white man when investigating a serial killing because, "Approximately 90 percent of known serial killers are Caucasian males between the ages of 25 to 35."

37% is not a majority. A majority is 50.01%. >_>

I corrected my gaff in a previous post.

Do you even understand what you're talking about anymore?

Took criminal justice courses a long time ago. The statistics were given to me by a cop, a black cop.

Original claim: Blacks commit 50% of crime murder.

... A group of 40,534,000 people are killing slightly more often than 193,316,000 people. So 40 million people have to murder over 5 times more often to equal 193 million people (per capita). That isn't prejudice it's a statistic.

Counter claim from me: That is not only exaggerated, but an assumption based on prejudice (in other words, assumed due to personal experiences/race before actually checking the facts).

It is a position bases in math.

1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

nearly 5:1 more likely to commit a murder per capita is not without reason.

2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

The figures show I am not showing signs of preconception.

3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4.

I am not showing any sign of doing this, I am providing the math that substantiates my statement.

such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.

As I have shown it is nothing of the kind. I have provided a statistical profile for murder based on FBI records combined with Census reports to substantiate that one group murders more often than another, just as I have shown data that One group is more likely to be serial killers than another.

And the difference between being more than half and 37% is huge when you're talking about an entire race of people.

The entire black race is roughly 1,050,000,000 people or 15% of 7 billion people. The US black populace is only 3.8% of the entire race... just saying.

No, the data does not support it, because 37% is not a majority.

True but it speaks volumes when 37% is committed by a mere 13%.

Now you're just moving the goal posts. White males aren't even that far behind in raw numbers. You even pointed that out.

I haven't moved anything! Per capita white people would have to murder over 27,000 people to match the number of murders per capita by blacks. Since there is somewhere around 5 times (4.78) less blacks than whites. Do you really think I'm being prejudice now?

 

[ChedWick]

Blame idiotic American gun laws, not that "hate crime" bullcrap.

Just stop desperately searching for racism everywhere. I'm almost postive that it wasn't the thing in this case. I am by no means defending the killer, I just find it stupid that when something bad happens to a black person everyone goes like "RACISM, RACISM!". This is a sheer proof of narrow-mindedness.

Not to mention that it's offensive, because it's treating different-skinned people as if they were nothing but their skin color.

Preach about narrow mindedness.; start your argument off with blaming gun laws. Way to go ace.



This whole fiasco is just that, a fiasco. The very first article that popped up a few weeks ago painted this tragic story of a young boy being shot in cold blood. I saw right through the media bias and started looking into all of the reports and claims that were left out of said article. Now there are so many conflicting stories and account it makes me sick. Not to mention the whole 'hate crime' thing annoys the **** out of me.

 

[DiamondClass]

The question the media isn't asking is why did Tayvor Martin have to attack Zimmerman in that manner? Did the fact that Zimmerman looked purely Latino make Martin think he was some cholo thug and fine to pounce on him? What if Zimmerman was 6'2 blond with blue eyes, would Martin consider him to be an undercover cop and reacted differently?

 

[Malanu]

The question the media isn't asking is why did Tayvor Martin have to attack Zimmerman in that manner? Did the fact that Zimmerman looked purely Latino make Martin think he was some cholo thug and fine to pounce on him? What if Zimmerman was 6'2 blond with blue eyes, would Martin consider him to be an undercover cop and reacted differently?

Is it possible there was an exchange of words that Zimmerman isn't owning up to? Lots of people have thin skin when it comes to insults, Or for that matter Trayvor could actually been attacked first and been able to fight back. There are several versions of what happened so a clear picture is difficult to explain.