The Club Battle Finale: A Heroes Outcome! (703)

[phanpycross]

In some ways I do and I do so for the following reasons:

1. Like i've said before neither Ash or Pikachu make up the loss. Everything goes downhill from this point with Ash performing worse in the next two tournaments he competes in and coming up poor in the league. It made Ash look weak and amateurish and worse it made his Unova team Pikachu include look weak and inexperienced, which is a really big shame because most of my favourite Pokémon were in Unova. Compared with DP where he one at least one major non-league competition it's rather sad that he should loose an unimportant contest to a relatively inexperienced trainer using a Pokémon that a few episodes previously didn't even trust her.

2. Nothing is actually achieved or gained from this competition. It doesn't showcase how any characters have grown or developed over the series except possibly it demonstrates a patch up in the relationship between Iris and Excadrill. And that wasn't really highlighted so what's the point - It just makes the arch seem like a pointless filler.

3. Of all the people Ash could have lost against he lost to Iris, who had spent most of the series prior to this demeaning him and calling him a little kid for making simple mistakes. All her victory does is vindicate her and make it seem like Ash is an incompetent and inexperienced trainer and gives Iris more ground to to demean him. That casts a shadow over his entire journey in the Unova region and makes it look like he can't do anything right or achieve anything in his own right.

4. The tournament doesn't reflect the trainer's actually ability with Pokémon. One on one battles in an elimination style tournament essentially means it's a sudden death competition. Iris had such a advantage that effectively she won before the match had even started. If it had been two against two or three on three then the greater degree of diversity in Pokémon chosen and the requirement to beat more than one opponent would be a better way of determining a trainers ability to work with their Pokémon and adapt to different situations.

5. It continues the series trait of giving Pikachu a beating. I accept that Pikachu while Ash's strongest Pokémon is still brittle in his strength and had a massive type disadvantage here but it was still a bad loss. Why did he have to get slammed into the wall like that - that was hard to watch. And this comes on top of loosing to a Panpour in the first gym battle against Cress (when Oshawott beat a Pansage), nearly loosing to a Swanna in the battle against Skyla and going out to Cameron's Lucario in the end of the series. Poor Pikachu. If they really wanted to give Ash such a bad loss why not demolish a different Pokémon - Oshawott maybe. Pikachu has been with Ash since the beginning, he's Ash's most trusted and closest partner and the one he loves the most so it's not unreasonable that by this stage in Ash's career he should be able to hold his own a little better than this. The writers spent the series picking on him.

If the episode has a saving grace it's the hug scene between Ash and Pikachu after the battle which brings out their friendship and love for each other in as good a way as a victory would have and in some respects better than.

You are way underrating Iris and playing her off as a noob despite having a 100 win spree with her excadrill.

Stop crying over the fact that Ash lost to an equally competent Trainer, it makes perfect sense in context, and doesnt hurt the unova saga at all.

 

[Pikachu52]

You are way underrating Iris and playing her off as a noob despite having a 100 win spree with her excadrill.

Stop crying over the fact that Ash lost to an equally competent Trainer, it makes perfect sense in context, and doesnt hurt the unova saga at all.

The first thing that wrong with this assessment is that despite Iris's 100 wins, she couldn't and has not battled and won against a single gym leader. Drayden is not a member of the elite four. A competent trainer should have been capable to taking him down, especially if they want to be in major tournaments. Ash has beaten 8 leaders in every region he's traveled through plus the battle froniter and the Orange league whom we can consumer are on par with or better than Drayden. Iris didn't even beat Drayden when they rematched again using Excadrill. The 100 wins counts for nothing. It was just the same tournament over and over.

I wouldn't have classified Iris as an equally competent trainer. Yes she won a lot of battles with Excardrill but it stopped listening to her after the loss to Drayden. Then she didn't let it out of it's Pokéball again until challenged by Georgia - Who beat it first time round easily despite Beartic having a type disadvantage. The only other Pokémon she had prior to Emolga was Axew whom she didn't really spend a lot of time training but was still able to beat Luke's Golett with. Emolga won the first two battles despite not being trained at all and spending her first few episodes doing everything she could to avoid battle. She can not objectively be said to be equally competent to Ash who had by this point in the series won three gym badges and had all his achievements prior to this series for which Pikachu was responsible for most of. My personal view is that Iris probably shouldn't have reached the finals. Her Excadrill is very powerful but Emolga and Axew are not. Having them win so that she can take out Pikachu with Excadrill seems like a fluke. Don't get me wrong I don't dislike Iris but I just don't think she should have won this tournament.

For Ash to loose so definitely to Iris who got through largely on luck it made it a lot worse when he failed even to reach the semi-finals in every other competition following this including the league. Winning this would have show that a) he is a competent trainer, b) would have shown Iris that he is not just a little kid and actually can train and befriend Pokémon better than she can, c) would have made up for Pikachu being used as a punching bag in episodes prior to this and most of all it would have softened the blow when Ash lost to Cameron in the league (which I get the feeling a lot of people were unhappy about). That's why I said it ruined the saga. If Ash had done better in tournaments following or in the league, or even beat Iris later on it might not have been as bad. I personally blame this episode for a substantial amount of the weakness in the BW series.

I do get the feeling that Iris mistreats her friends somewhat - possibly without meaning to. Excadrill stopped obeying her because she humiliated him and hurt his feelings by going up against Drayden when she wasn't ready to, and she constantly spent the series putting Ash down and berating him for very minor errors. I sometimes wonder why Ash doesn't just say he's had enough of it and walk out on her, forcing her to realise that other people and Pokémon have feelings and she should act less superior. Personally I think Ash should have walked out on her here. She mocked him at the start of the battle and she beat up his best friend.

Iris has good qualities too and I think if Ash had said to her, "I've had it with this, If you think I'm a little kid, you go challenge five Pokémon leagues and beat the battle frontier and leave me alone," she would say sorry and make it up to him. She did genuinely try to make it up to Excadrill and I she does genuinely care for him. In short Iris isn't a bad person but she really did not need this massive boost to her ego.

As for Iris being on the same par as Ash in terms of competence. Objectively I don't think that's true. Ash has traveled through five regions, competed in the league, been highly placed in various regional leagues, beaten the battle frontier and caught many different Pokémon. Iris and Excadrill had only won a single competition in the village of dragons before this tournament, Axew had very little battle experience and Iris had't even caught a Pokémon in her own right before Emolga. And Emolga just let herself get caught.

In any case what was gained from the tournament arch. Ash won every battle except where it counted and Iris got lucky with Emogla and Axew. It makes it look like a filler arch, which I suspect it was - They needed something to fill the void after the cancellation of the Team Plasma vs Team Rocket episodes.

The problem with Unova is that they loved treating Ash and Pikachu like idiots who are absolue beginers and everyone is better than him.

I more or less agree with that statement, which is essentially the problem I have with Iris winning the club battle tournament. Nobody treated Ash like a beginner more than she did with the exception of Trip. Then she went on to win despite having got to the final with two untrained Pokémon who got lucky which made it even worser. Talk about rubbing salt into the wound. She even referred to him as a kid at the start the battle! At least with Trip Ash did get to prove to him that he and Pikachu were actually competent. That's improved in XY a lot given that Ash has demonstrated a lot more competence and Pikachu has been the hero of three gym battles.

 

[hihosilveraway]

I wouldn't have classified Iris as an equally competent trainer. Yes she won a lot of battles with Excardrill but it stopped listening to her after the loss to Drayden. Then she didn't let it out of it's Pokéball again until challenged by Georgia - Who beat it first time round easily despite Beartic having a type disadvantage. The only other Pokémon she had prior to Emolga was Axew whom she didn't really spend a lot of time training but was still able to beat Luke's Golett with. Emolga won the first two battles despite not being trained at all and spending her first few episodes doing everything she could to avoid battle. She can not objectively be said to be equally competent to Ash who had by this point in the series won three gym badges and had all his achievements prior to this series for which Pikachu was responsible for most of. My personal view is that Iris probably shouldn't have reached the finals. Her Excadrill is very powerful but Emolga and Axew are not. Having them win so that she can take out Pikachu with Excadrill seems like a fluke. Don't get me wrong I don't dislike Iris but I just don't think she should have won this tournament.

For Ash to loose so definitely to Iris who got through largely on luck it made it a lot worse when he failed even to reach the semi-finals in every other competition following this including the league. Winning this would have show that a) he is a competent trainer, b) would have shown Iris that he is not just a little kid and actually can train and befriend Pokémon better than she can, c) would have made up for Pikachu being used as a punching bag in episodes prior to this and most of all it would have softened the blow when Ash lost to Cameron in the league (which I get the feeling a lot of people were unhappy about). That's why I said it ruined the saga. If Ash had done better in tournaments following or in the league, or even beat Iris later on it might not have been as bad. I personally blame this episode for a substantial amount of the weakness in the BW series.

In any case what was gained from the tournament arch. Ash won every battle except where it counted and Iris got lucky with Emogla and Axew. It makes it look like a filler arch, which I suspect it was - They needed something to fill the void after the cancellation of the Team Plasma vs Team Rocket episodes.

The problem with Unova is that they loved treating Ash and Pikachu like idiots who are absolue beginers and everyone is better than him.

 

[phanpycross]

I wouldn't have classified Iris as an equally competent trainer. Yes she won a lot of battles with Excardrill but it stopped listening to her after the loss to Drayden. Then she didn't let it out of it's Pokéball again until challenged by Georgia - Who beat it first time round easily despite Beartic having a type disadvantage. The only other Pokémon she had prior to Emolga was Axew whom she didn't really spend a lot of time training but was still able to beat Luke's Golett with. Emolga won the first two battles despite not being trained at all and spending her first few episodes doing everything she could to avoid battle. She can not objectively be said to be equally competent to Ash who had by this point in the series won three gym badges and had all his achievements prior to this series for which Pikachu was responsible for most of. My personal view is that Iris probably shouldn't have reached the finals. Her Excadrill is very powerful but Emolga and Axew are not. Having them win so that she can take out Pikachu with Excadrill seems like a fluke. Don't get me wrong I don't dislike Iris but I just don't think she should have won this tournament.

For Ash to loose so definitely to Iris who got through largely on luck it made it a lot worse when he failed even to reach the semi-finals in every other competition following this including the league. Winning this would have show that a) he is a competent trainer, b) would have shown Iris that he is not just a little kid and actually can train and befriend Pokémon better than she can, c) would have made up for Pikachu being used as a punching bag in episodes prior to this and most of all it would have softened the blow when Ash lost to Cameron in the league (which I get the feeling a lot of people were unhappy about). That's why I said it ruined the saga. If Ash had done better in tournaments following or in the league, or even beat Iris later on it might not have been as bad. I personally blame this episode for a substantial amount of the weakness in the BW series.

In any case what was gained from the tournament arch. Ash won every battle except where it counted and Iris got lucky with Emogla and Axew. It makes it look like a filler arch, which I suspect it was - They needed something to fill the void after the cancellation of the Team Plasma vs Team Rocket episodes.

If it was just filler why are you so adamant about how Ash shouldnt have lost, which he should since he was at a massive disadvantage. The other issue is that you're acing as if this was the only epiosde of BW, which it wasnt. Ash had plenty of moments showing he clearly wasnt a noob, so I fail to see how Iris winning one tournement really hurt him in the long run tbh.

 

[hihosilveraway]

I more or less agree with that statement, which is essentially the problem I have with Iris winning the club battle tournament. Nobody treated Ash like a beginner more than she did with the exception of Trip. Then she went on to win despite having got to the final with two untrained Pokémon who got lucky which made it even worser. Talk about rubbing salt into the wound. She even referred to him as a kid at the start the battle! At least with Trip Ash did get to prove to him that he and Pikachu were actually competent. That's improved in XY a lot given that Ash has demonstrated a lot more competence and Pikachu has been the hero of three gym battles.

Even worse is that Trip himself can't talk as he himself is an absoulte beginner which made it worse imo and he makes fun of Ash like he knows nothing about Pokémon nor does he take into consideration his experience.

 

[Pikachu52]

If it was just filler why are you so adamant about how Ash shouldnt have lost, which he should since he was at a massive disadvantage.

In fairness he had a similar disadvantage when he fought Georgia with Snivy and he still managed to win. It's not as if Pikachu couldn't have won. He still had Iron tail and he did get close to winning as Iris herself noted. Besides it's not as if Iris v Ash was the only possibility. Iris could and I say should have lost one of her previous battles probably Luke given Axew's youth and inexperience. Or Ash could have just used palpitoad or Oshawott (my preference) against Iris then he would not have been such a disadvantage. Or it could have been Axew v Pikachu or Emolga v Pikachu.

The other issue is that you're acing as if this was the only epiosde of BW, which it wasnt. Ash had plenty of moments showing he clearly wasnt a noob, so I fail to see how Iris winning one tournement really hurt him in the long run tbh

Because he did have any more moments of showing he wasn't a complete noob (I'm not sure what that word means but I'll use it anyway). He lost in the next two competitions he participated in including against Trip's Serperior with Pignite. He had already had significant losses earlier in the series most notably the one to Cress. All this served to do was vindicate Iris's your a little kid act and make Pikachu give Pikachu a savage beating. They really had it in for Pikachu in Black and White and there was no need for it - glad they've rectified that in XY. The reason I think it did hurt Ash in the long run is because it just piled up against every other significant loss he had during the BW saga which just reflected badly on Pikachu and on his other Unova Pokémon, most of whom were really good and made great characters (Oshawott especially). There were a few battles where Ash really did really really well but not enough of them featured Pikachu and they still get horribly overshadowed by this and to a lesser extent the battle against Cameron at the league.

And if it was just filler why did we get four episodes - Four episodes for Pikachu to loose badly when Iris won the tournament on a wing and a prayer.

Even worse is that Trip himself can't talk as he himself is an absoulte beginner which made it worse imo and he makes fun of Ash like he knows nothing about Pokémon nor does he take into consideration his experience.

That is very true. But Trip was always supposed to be an unfriendly rival. Iris doing it is worse because was supposed to be a friend. Trip eventually is forced to eat his words and admit that Ash is a decent trainer when he looses to him in the preliminary battles of the league. I can't really identify the point in the series where Iris admits that Ash is a good trainer - It might have been when she was watching him take on the Striaton gym. Throughout the entire series she makes the remark 'kid' whenever he does something wrong and they tend to argue a few time. In the Path that leads to goodbye she blames him for something that any reasonable person could see was not his fault - the berry he picked was bitter. Things like that just leave me with the impression that deep down, she thought of him as her idiotic friend and stayed with him out of pity. The result in BW042 to my mind just gives her more reason to look down at him. Don't get me wrong - I like Iris I don't generally have a problem with the "your a little kid" banter that ran through the series. It was funny. This result just seems to vindicate it unneccessarily. It would have been better to have had Ash prove he is the better trainer even if it was not in this battle. If Ash had beaten Iris later on or done something noteworthy like win the next competition it would have made up for this result...

 

[Bill Cipher]

So back in January I remember making a comment that I didn't think Iris should have been the winner of the tournament (thankfully nobody called me on it but that's beside the point). A while ago I thought about it and came to the conclusion that making a statement like that was a bit silly on my part. This is because the tournament is really just a small competition between 16 trainers which isn't that many, and they were all single 1vs1 battles. No matter who won that tournament, it wouldn't mean they're the best trainer who competed. Would a win here have meant more to Ash than to Iris? Not really. I doubt he would have used the feathers either; he's just not that kind of guy. Plus it's definitely practical to give Excadrill a big victory. He hasn't had one since he started battling for Iris again and it was time to show how far he's come.

Bottom line, I considered the tournament to be more relevant than it actually was, and Iris's Pokemon needed a good victory more than any of Ash's Pokemon.

This doesn't mean I thought the entire tournament was great (I still don't like the way Iris beat Luke when she could have done so in a better written way and I would have bought it), but it does mean that I now think the outcome is fine.

Excadrill would have looked more impressive if he beat Palpitoad or Snivy instead though. They would at least have been able to use all of their moves. But whatever, it's not really a problem.

 

[Pikachu52]

So back in January I remember making a comment that I didn't think Iris should have been the winner of the tournament (thankfully nobody called me on it but that's beside the point). I've become a bit... wiser since then(?) so a while ago I thought about it and came to the conclusion that making a statement like that was a bit silly on my part. This is because the tournament is really just a small competition between 16 trainers which isn't that many, and they were all single 1vs1 battles. No matter who won that tournament, it wouldn't mean they're the best trainer who competed. Would a win here have meant more to Ash than to Iris? Not really. I doubt he would have used the feathers either; he's just not that kind of guy. Plus it's definitely practical to give Excadrill a big victory. He hasn't had one since he started battling for Iris again and it was time to show how far he's come.

This doesn't mean I thought the entire tournament was great (I still don't like the way Iris beat Luke when she could have done so in a better written way and I would have bought it) but it does mean that I now think the outcome is fine.

Excadrill would have looked more impressive if he beat Palpitoad or Snivy instead though. They would at least have been able to use all of their moves. But whatever, it's not really a problem.

No I agreed with you earlier statement. This episode brought down the entire BW series. There are four reasons why I think Ash loosing to Iris was a bad outcome.

1. It made Ash look a lot worse than he actually is - In the DP series he's shown himself to be a reasonbly competent trainer able to understand, bond with and battle well with his Pokémon. This episode made him look quite bad especially when it's combined with the fact the lost every other tournament in the series.

2. Iris had spent the entire series up to this point treating Ash as if he was a little kid and berating him for all his mistakes never actually seeing him as a decent trainer. All this episode stood to do was give her more vindication for her "Your such a kid" attitude. She even says it to him during the battle. They never rematched and Ash never got the opportunity to show her he is a decent trainer. If he'd beaten her she'd have to have stopped the "such a kid" routine. For goodness sake she travels around with a baby dragon in her hair and an Excadrill that won't obey her, spends most of her time climbing things and can't even get Emolga to trust her and then she just wins a major competition ahead of a competent trainer whose Pokémon love and respect him.

3. This episode continues the long line of the BW writers favourite passtime of let's beat up Pikachu. Pikachu is Ash's closet and strongest partner he should not be treated as a punching bag. He's the star of the show. Despite the close friendship he and Ash had built up he lost to a Pokémon who just episodes ago wouldn't obey his trainer because of the way she used and humiliated him earlier in the series. The anime is supposed to be about friendship, trust and love but all this episode seemed to say is that if you big and strong you'll always win. I'm afraid I don't see why it's practical to give Excadrill a big victory

4. Having episodes that constantly characterise Ash as being incompetent damages the other Pokémon on his team. Not getting any major wins makes Ash's team look a lot weaker than it actually is in reality and suggests that evolution is the key to success which the anime continually tries to refute.

I doubt he would have used the feathers either; he's just not that kind of guy. Plus it's definitely practical to give Excadrill a big victory. He hasn't had one since he started battling for Iris again and it was time to show how far he's come.

Bottom line, I considered the tournament to be more relevant than it actually was, and Iris's Pokemon needed a good victory more than any of Ash's Pokemon.

Yes but not against Ash or Pikachu. My view is Pikachu was given a bad run at the start of the series loosing to Trip's Snivy and Cress's Panpour (that defies logic) that he was the one that needed the victory. Excadrill's victory is more a fluke than an accomplishment. He had a major type advantage and even at that Pikachu still did a fair bit of damage. If Pikachu's moveset was just a little more diverse he could have pulled it off. I also serious doubt Excadrill he could hold out long against some of Ash's other Pokémon. Charzard, Buizel and even Oshawott would all have beaten Excadrill easily (Oshawott not that easily). In any case Iris did not need another reason to consider herself superior to Ash or to think of Ash as a "little kid."

 

[Janovy]

2. Iris had spent the entire series up to this point treating Ash as if he was a little kid and berating him for all his mistakes never actually seeing him as a decent trainer. All this episode stood to do was give her more vindication for her "Your such a kid" attitude. She even says it to him during the battle. They never rematched and Ash never got the opportunity to show her he is a decent trainer.

Except for the fact Iris realizes in episode 4 that Ash is an exceptional trainer when he cares for Tepig. There's a single scene where Iris gazes at Ash as he takes care of Tepig and she smiles realizing what kind of person he actually is. Iris' remarks were never meant to be hurtful and while his behavior did get on her nerves, those remarks turned into gentle teasing by the end of BW. As for the battle, Iris never once called Ash a kid for winning that battle. They shook hands and congratulated each other for a battle well fought in a mature way, no calling names, no nothing.

3. This episode continues the long line of the BW writers favourite passtime of let's beat up Pikachu. Pikachu is Ash's closet and strongest partner he should not be treated as a punching bag. He's the star of the show. Despite the close friendship he and Ash had built up he lost to a Pokémon who just episodes ago wouldn't obey his trainer because of the way she used and humiliated him earlier in the series. The anime is supposed to be about friendship, trust and love but all this episode seemed to say is that if you big and strong you'll always win. I'm afraid I don't see why it's practical to give Excadrill a big victory

And Excadrill is Iris's closest and strongest partner. See? That logic works both ways.

Ash and Pikachu have won so many times, so many things.

Thank God writers gave Iris a win, I mean, she would only ever appear in Best Wishes. So why not take the opportunity? Ash has four regions behind him and God knows how many after him, he has won plenty and he will win plenty. Iris deserved to get this one victory.

And for crying out loud, Ash used Pikachu vs Excadrill - he deserved to lose.

4. Having episodes that constantly characterise Ash as being incompetent damages the other Pokémon on his team. Not getting any major wins makes Ash's team look a lot weaker than it actually is in reality and suggests that evolution is the key to success which the anime continually tries to refute.

Except Ash's Snivy beat Trip's Servine, his Tepig/Pignite and Snivy beat Emboar and Heatmore, etc.

Ash beat a dozen fully evolved Pokemon with unevolved ones. So please stop. If anything, BW was all about evolution not being the key to success.

 

[Pikachu52]

Except for the fact Iris realizes in episode 4 that Ash is an exceptional trainer when he cares for Tepig. There's a single scene where Iris gazes at Ash as he takes care of Tepig and she smiles realizing what kind of person he actually is. Iris' remarks were never meant to be hurtful and while his behavior did get on her nerves, those remarks turned into gentle teasing by the end of BW. As for the battle, Iris never once called Ash a kid for winning that battle. They shook hands and congratulated each other for a battle well fought in a mature way, no calling names, no nothing.

She called him a kid right at the start for having Pikachu use thunderbolt at Excadrill. Ash knew wouldn't work, but she still said "what a kid," after he told her why he had given that command. Her response to me make it look like she was being rather arrogant about her advantage.

The reason there was no calling names immediately after was because there was a camera pointed at them. I also don't think she tries to mean I think she just has an inflated ego and takes her friends for granted. If Ash had the little kid thing would have had to stop.

There's also an episode during the declore Island's arch when she completely flips out on him for nothing more than passing her a bitter apple.

And Excadrill is Iris's closest and strongest partner. See? That logic works both ways.

She completely humiliated it in front in a battle with Drayden which is why it closed himself off to her in the first place. If it's her closet Pokémon by this stage that's a very quick reunion. In any case even if it was her strongest and closet partner Iris's bond with Excadrill is not equal to that of Ash and Pikachu and Excadrill has significantly less strength and experience. The logic clearly favours Pikachu.

Ash and Pikachu have won so many times, so many things.

A lot less so in BW. Pikachu got very little spotlight in the series.

Thank God writers gave Iris a win, I mean, she would only ever appear in Best Wishes. So why not take the opportunity? Ash has four regions behind him and God knows how many after him, he has won plenty and he will win plenty. Iris deserved to get this one victory.

And for crying out loud, Ash used Pikachu vs Excadrill - he deserved to lose.

Not as badly as he did though. Focus blast is not a ground type move. In any case it goes back to my main point - why did BW pick on Pikachu so much. In any case it's not a bad thing that Ash chose Pikachu. Pikachu is his best friend and most loyal partner. Of course they'll fight along side each other. Why does that mean he deserved to loose. Are we really saying that strength, force and material victory are more important that friendship, trust and love - the anime has already gone to great lenghts to refute that. During the Johto series Ash and Pikachu beat Dr Namba's overpowered electabuzz because they trust each other - that point was made.

Thank God writers gave Iris a win, I mean, she would only ever appear in Best Wishes. So why not take the opportunity? Ash has four regions behind him and God knows how many after him, he has won plenty and he will win plenty. Iris deserved to get this one victory.

Ash left Unova with only the 8 eight gym badges to show for it. It's possibly the worst region yet except for the Indigo league. Ash deserved to get this one win simply so to prevent creating the impression that Unova marked a regression from DP.

 

[Bill Cipher]

it was a bonding excercise - so in some ways she was mocking their friendship

I'm not sure what this means but I feel safe saying it definitely wasn't a "bonding exercise". Ash said it was a signal that he was getting serious/pumped or whatever. So basically he meant it as a signal to Iris that "Hey, we're aware that Thunderbolt and Electro Ball won't work but Pikachu and I still won't hold back". It had nothing to do with bonding. There was no mockery of friendship there. :I

And for crying out loud, Ash used Pikachu vs Excadrill - he deserved to lose.

Lol your other points are fine but saying he deserved to lose just for having a disadvantage isn't exactly fair or correct. Ash had to send out his Pokemon first which made him the one most likely to end up with the disadvantage. Ash could have used Snivy or Palpitoad, but then what would have stopped the writers from having Iris use Emolga? Snivy is a grass type and Palpitoad is male after all.

 

[Janovy]

Lol your other points are fine but saying he deserved to lose just for having a disadvantage is kind of dumb. Ash had to send out his Pokemon first which made him the one most likely to end up with the disadvantage. Ash could have used Snivy or Palpitoad, but then what would have stopped the writers from having Iris use Emolga? Snivy is a grass type and Palpitoad is male after all.

Snivy would have no troubles winning despite type advantage (she did it before) and Emolga has no real moves against Palpitoad except Hidden Power.

 

[Bill Cipher]

Snivy would have no troubles winning despite type advantage (she did it before)

That alone defeats your point about Ash deserving to lose for using Pikachu because Pikachu has won despite type disadvantage before as well.

It's fair to say Iris deserved to win, but not so much to say Ash deserved to lose.

Emolga has no real moves against Palpitoad except Hidden Power.

*Hidden Power and Attract. Palpitoad by that point only had Hydro Pump and Supersonic, and since attract is broken in the anime while confusion isn't, Emolga kind of has the edge there.

I'm not really here to debate about Emolga though, just saying.

 

[sleazymegalover]

No I agreed with you earlier statement. This episode brought down the entire BW series. There are four reasons why I think Ash loosing to Iris was a bad outcome.

4. Having episodes that constantly characterise Ash as being incompetent damages the other Pokémon on his team. Not getting any major wins makes Ash's team look a lot weaker than it actually is in reality and suggests that evolution is the key to success which the anime continually tries to refute.

Oh please the anime's wrong anyways there's a point for evolution and the anime is right whenever it shows that evolution is the key to sucess.Plus XY is basically showing that evolution is the key to success with Goomy becoming a lot stronger as a Goodra and now being able to protect its homeland.

Also what's so Taboo about Excadrill beating Pikachu, Excadrill beat Pikachu fair and square, you're acting as if it lost to some weak Pokemon like a Magikarp.

 

[Pikachu52]

Pikachu should have won - Worst episode of BW

This episode is without doubt in my mind the worst Episode of not only the Best Wishes series but the entire Pokémon anime - it ruined BW in my opinion. The series just went down hill from here on. Excadrill vs Pikachu is the worst battle and the worst outcome that has ever to have featured in the anime. Ash should have won the tournament. I feel irritated and bitter when I think about this episode. It was an unfair, humiliating and demaning loss for Ash that defies any sort of logic when considered against the show's cannon. Here's why:

It's fair to say Iris deserved to win, but not so much to say Ash deserved to lose.

I love iris, she's a great trainer, great character, and she deserved to win

Iris didn't deserve to win - Ash deserved to win
Iris did not deserve to win. not by a long shot. She is not worthy of beating Ash. Iris and Excardil are much less experienced than Ash and Pikachu - They has not travelled through different regions and competed in other leagues or won badges or had any noteworthy achievements beyond a few wins in a tournament in the Village of Dragons. Iris didn't even perform that well in the battles leading up to the final. She only won the semi-final because Axew learned Outrage at the last moment - her victories were forced solely to give her the win here.

Ash deserved this win much more than Iris. He doesn't win anything else during the series despite participating in 2 more similar competitions and he finishes the league a run behind his position in Sinnoh and he'd already suffered a series of bad losses to Trip and Cress. The BW series doesn't give Ash any notable achievements other than the 8 gym badges.

The way she won was pretty cool. She picked the correct Pokemon for the battle (Excadrill and Axew would have been bad picks plus its a male only line. Diva has a type advantage AND attract). She used a strategy that worked well with her Pokemon and when that failed she used the elements at hand to put things in her favor.

Not really. Ash was the one with the more creative strategy given he had to make up for the type disadvantage. Iris was lucky as Pikachu's most powerful moves were ineffective on Excadrill. Thing were in her favor from the very start. The type advantage is the only reason she won. Her own skill had very little to do with it. In terms of choosing the right Pokémon - she didn't exactly have much choice. She only has three and there was no way Emolga or Axew could have won the battle - which makes you wonder why Excadrill wasn't used in an earlier round.

Unnecessarily vindicates Iris's "You're a kid" attitude towards Ash
It was upsetting that Iris won after she spends all her time berating him about being a little kid. Iris is constantly demeaning Ash by calling him a little kid for every mistake he makes - this result merely serves to vindicate and meant that throughout the entire BW series Iris would never come to respect Ash as a trainer and would always act like she was better than him. From this point on she refers to him as a kid for every little mistake he makes. This should have been Ash's moment to prove to Iris that he is not a little kid and is a competent and skilled trainer - It was a terrible error of judgement for the writters not to make it so.

Except for the fact Iris realizes in episode 4 that Ash is an exceptional trainer when he cares for Tepig. There's a single scene where Iris gazes at Ash as he takes care of Tepig and she smiles realizing what kind of person he actually is. Iris' remarks were never meant to be hurtful and while his behavior did get on her nerves, those remarks turned into gentle teasing by the end of BW. As for the battle, Iris never once called Ash a kid for winning that battle. They shook hands and congratulated each other for a battle well fought in a mature way, no calling names, no nothing.

Yes Iris did show a great deal of sportsman ship at the end of the episode. I wouldn't have expected anything less - They could not have had a travelling companion be a sore winner. You could argue that we never got to see what happened between Ash and Iris over this battle off screen... Iris's "You're a kid" mantra gets a little bit worse after this episode - she says it literally whenever he's happy or excited by something. It does sometimes come across that she sees herself as the superior trainer. But in any case it's beside the point - even though it was in jest and probably friendly the teasing was more than enough reason enough to give Ash the victory here. Out of him and Iris Ash is clearly the more competent and experienced trainer and that should have come through here, especially as he was using Pikachu.

Pikachu is more than capable of beating Iris's Excadrill
There are many good reasons to believe that Pikachu should have beaten Excadrill:

1. Pikachu was strong enough to tie with Tobais's Latios and beat Roark's Onix in DP despite the type disadvantage.
2. This was Excadrill's first actual battle for a long period of time. The Pokémon was out of practice for a long time prior to this episode - it could only manage a tie with Georgia's Beartic despite type advantage. Furthermore it wasn't even listening to Iris until recently. Excadrill is clearly not the powerhouse he was made out to be here. Pikachu has been battling and training consistently throughout his life. Excadrill should still have been affected by battle rust.
3. Ash as a trainer has way more experience than Iris. He has been to four regions, competed in the leagues and won both the Orange league and the Battle Frontier. Iris hadn't even left her home prior to travelling with Ash.
4. Iris rightfully should not have even been in the final. She only got there because Axew won a battle (his first ever real battle) becasue of a fluke - he learned dragon rage at that last minute. Similarly this tournament was the first time Emogla actually listened to Iris instead of using Volt Switch.
5. If Excadrill is such a powerful Pokémon why did Iris save him for the final and choose to use her two inexperienced Pokémon, neither of which had been a serious battle prior to the tournament, in the previous three rounds. Was this just a gimmick to set Pikachu up against a Pokémon he would have difficulty beating.
6. Excadrill nearly fainted after getting hit in the head by that Iron tail. Pikachu could have delivered a victory if he'd hit him in the horn with Iron tail a second time.

I think it was difficult for Ash to have won in this situation given the major type disadvantage that Ash had using an electric type against a ground type and the only effective move he had was Iron tail but even so it's not inconceivable that Pikachu could have won. I was actually painful to watch Pikachu faint. He did put up a very good fight for the most part.

Iris is the less competent trainer and Excadrill is weak
This was Excadrill's first serious battle in months. There's no way it should be this good after being out of practice for so long. Besides when was it stated that Iris and Excadrill are even strong to begin with. All they'd done before this competition was battle in the same contest over and over again, the two have none of Ash and Pikachu's experience. Excadrill stopped obeying Iris after she lost to Drayden - A GYM LEADER. Not a strong trainer, not a member of the elite four, a gym leader. Ash has beaten 8 leaders in 5 different regions. If Iris can't take on one Gym leader then it's very clear she is inferior to Ash. For goodness sake Iris has only ever caught one Pokémon prior to this and that was Emolga. How cany anyone possibly defend her.

The episode unfairly abuses Pikachu
And why did it have to be Pikachu who lost the decisive battle. Why did it have to be that the only battle that Pikachu was in during the tournmanet was the one he lost. Why couldn't it have been Snivy or Paliptoad. Pikachu is Ash's strongest Pokémon as It keep saying - There is no reason for him not to win the majority of his battles. There is a lovely cute moment in the first episode of the Club Battle arch, Reunion battles in Nimbassa, where Pikachu jumps on the entry form and signals to Ash that he wants to be in the battle and Ash strokes his head and says "I can always use you out there buddy." It's a wonderful yet simple demonstration of their bond and friendship but this battle posions it horribly. Personally I wonder whether the writers have it in for Pikachu. It might have been better had Ash used Pikachu earlier in the competition and used either Snivy or Palpitoad against Excadrill.

Pikachu is better in small quantities. It shows that the writers want to treat other Pokemon equally, and not give Pikachu some unfair advantage, and special treatment just because it's Pikachu.

All these things = It's not realistic with Pikachu beating Excadrill. So in a sense I'm glad Excadrill beat Pikachu, but disappointed that Iris won the tournament.

Pikachu is better in larger doses. He absolutely deserves greater treatment than the other Pokémon because he is the series mascot, Ash's closet friend and the anime's second most important protagonist. The XY series gets Pikachu right:

1. He's the hero of the first three gym battles
2, He has only lost to three Pokémon in total during the entire series
3. Two of those Pokémon he rematched and won against the second time.
4. The third was inconsequential as Ash won the battle anyway.

If Pikachu can beat Onix, Latios and Regice it's hardly unrealistic that Pikachu can beat an Excadrill in said Excadrill's first battle in literally months if not years. Furthermore Ash battles against clay's Excadrill later on in the series and manages to defeat it with his Boldore, a Pokémon he had only had for a short while and is much less experienced than Pikachu and is also at a significant type disadvantage. Iris's Excadrill would likely be much weaker than Clays so it stands to reason that Ash's strongest Pokémon should be able to take him out.

Personally I'm the other way round on this. Iris winning would have been alright if it hadn't been Pikachu who lost the battle. If Excadrill had beaten Snivy or Palpitoad it would be easy to put down the loss to inexperinece on the part of those Pokémon. The fact that she beat Pikachu gives the false impression that she is an equal or better than Ash as a trainer when she simply is not. If Ash is going to be in a tournament and loose, the responsibility for the loss should not fall on Pikachu and that goes for any series not just here.

Pikachu didn't have a lot of major victories during BW - He had already lost to Cress's Panpour. One victory at the end of the first torunament isn't asking for much.

Pikachu needed this win
Pikachu needed this battle much more than Excadrill. Pikachu had already suffered bad losses to Trip's Snivy and Cress's Panpour despite the fact that he should have beaten both of them easily. He had also not won a gym battles Ash had been in prior to this tournament, nor was he used in any of the battles leading up to this. Pikachu really need a big important victory in the BW series. It should have been this battle. There were very few moments in the BW series where Pikachu got to shine - this was perhaps the worst feature of the BW series. It's taken to the XY series for Pikachu to finally be given the attention he deserves.

Why does Iris even have an Excadrill
Excadrill showed up out of the blue as this "powerful" Pokémon in "the Bloom is on Axew." She's the first travelling companion since Misty to have an evolved/experienced Pokémon in her party prior to the beginning of the series. Iris's game counterpart does not have an Excadrill. Excadrill isn't a dragon type. So why did they choose to give Iris an Excadrill as opposed to another dragon type or a non-ground type Pokémon. I wonder if they put Excadrill in Iris's party specifically for this battle.

It does have one good point
On the plus side, as a (romantic) Pikashipper I liked how the battle brought out the close bond between Ash and Pikachu, particularly the way that Ash and Pikachu have that connection through thunderbolt, how Ash was thinking 'I can always rely on you buddy,' and how he showed concern when 'Pikachu is about to hit the wall' (which ironically he did). The best bit was after Pikachu had fainted when Ash Picked him and made sure he was okay, and thanked him for battling and told him he did well. And then they shared that hug. That was really heartwarming. Still it would have been just as good if Ash had been hugging him after they won.

Concluding thoughts
It wouldn't have been so bad if Ash had got a chance to win something later on but he didn't. Every single competition or major tournament Ash was involved in in the BW series and then to be eliminated from the Unova league by a trainer who only brought five Pokémon to a full battle. That was disappointing. I feel sorry for him. BW had a good set of characters and I really loved the Pokémon on Ash's team but the story lines were average at best and poor at worst. Overall this was a horrific end to the Club battle tournament arch and a low point in the anime in general - This tournament was rightfully Ash's to win. I notice a couple of people posting are being strongly critical on Ash for using Pikachu including to the extend to of insulting Pikachu. This is unfair. Pikachu is Ash's main partner Pokémon and his best friend (and in my opinion something much more). They'll always fight together in major tournaments and significant battles. There is no one Ash trusts more than Pikachu and vice versa and they work perfectly together. Part of me is convinced that this episode and many others in BW are drafted this way because the writers of the series didn't like Ash's character which begs the question, why write a story if you don't like your protagonist and just want to humiliate him. How can an audience be expected to support the hero if even the writers won't. It is not a good look out for the Pokémon anime, if works of fanfiction are better than what the paid writters actually produce. Bascially what this episodes says is that if I want to see Ash actually progress as a trainer and win tournaments I have to write about it myself.

your other points are fine but saying he deserved to lose just for having a disadvantage isn't exactly fair or correct. Ash had to send out his Pokemon first which made him the one most likely to end up with the disadvantage. Ash could have used Snivy or Palpitoad, but then what would have stopped the writers from having Iris use Emolga? Snivy is a grass type and Palpitoad is male after all.

Actually a Snivy vs Emolga battle would have been an ideal end to the saga - Given Snivy and Emolga had a long-running rivalry throughout it would have given both Pokémon a chance to settle that score and would have provided a good point for humour - they could have argued during the battle. Morally Snivy should probably win because I think Emolga has been in the wrong most of the time there has been conflict between the two Pokémon. However I would have accepted an Emolga victory because it demonstrates her becoming more of a reliable partner and less manipulative. And in any case - unlike Excadrill Emolga is too cute to hate on.

Also what's so Taboo about Excadrill beating Pikachu, Excadrill beat Pikachu fair and square, you're acting as if it lost to some weak Pokemon like a Magikarp.

Pikachu, who can tie with a Latios, should not be beaten by Excadrill, who was in it's first real battle in what is either months or years during which he had been ignoring Iris and feeling sorry for himself. Excadrill couldn't beat Georgia's beartic despite the type advantage so there is no reason he should be better than Pikachu. Excadrill IS logically and rightfully weaker than Pikachu. The reason I consider it so Taboo is because it's a major demonstration of the BW series under powering Pikachu and making Pikachu responsible for the worst of Ash's losses and generally setting him up for dislike within the fandom. Pikachu is Ash's strongest partner and closet friend - He's been the star of the program since the first generation so I don't see why he's suddenly been turned into a punching bag.

THIS IS THE WORST EXCUSE FOR AN EPISODE THE ANIME HAS EVER PRODUCED. PIKACHU SHOULD HAVE BEATEN EXCADRILL AND ASH SHOULD HAVE WON THAT TORNAMENT.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Ash was undisputedly the best Trainer in this tournament, I was dissapointed Ash lost. Iris the hypocrite did not deserve to win when she had no idea what she was doing when matched up with Luke, plot armor helped her get the win when her untrained Axew learned Outrage, Ash got robbed big time.

 

[Pikachu52]

Ash was undisputedly the best Trainer in this tournament, I was dissapointed Ash lost. Iris the hypocrite did not deserve to win when she had no idea what she was doing when matched up with Luke, plot armor helped her get the win when her untrained Axew learned Outrage, Ash got robbed big time.

I agree with you 100%. It is the poorest written episode of the entire anime.

The other problem with this episode that i didn't highlight above is this. When Ash calls Pikachu to use thunderbolt on Excardill Iris calls him a kid because he knew it wouldn't work. Earlier in the episode Iris makes the exact same mistake - she tells Axew to use scratch, a normal type move, on Gollett, a ghost type Pokémon. This A) makes her comment about Ash hypocritical and B) shows she clearly not a competent trainer or at least not on equal par with Ash. It also shows Axew should have lost to Gollett.

I repeat. The episode is a disaster and the tournament arch is a joke.

I swear Pikachu hardly loses in XY, he only has 2 losses while his other Pokémon get screwed over with consistent loses that's also not fair.

Exactly how it should be and should have been in this series.

 

[JudySpell]

I don't care that Ash lost to Iris. I'm just mad that the prize was something that Iris didn't even need. Even Ash didn't need those feathers. 5/10

 

[Mrs. Oreo]

Well even tho the anime isn't always consistent with type effectiveness, I liked how Excadrill was allowed to dominate Pikachu in the finals. Iris winning was cool to me cuz she impressed me the most in this tourney. :3

 

[Pikachu52]

Well even tho the anime isn't always consistent with type effectiveness, I liked how Excadrill was allowed to dominate Pikachu in the finals. Iris winning was cool to me cuz she impressed me the most in this tourney. :3

I disagree entirely. Why is Excadrill was allowed to dominate Pikachu a good thing. This is the Pikachu that defeated a Latios and the Excadrill that wasn't obeying Iris up until recently after loosing a gym leaders Haxorus. What does it achieve other than allowing Iris to continue to demean Ash and run the little kid line. Ash and Pikachu needed this win.

Pikachu should have dominated or at least scrapped a win in that battle. He was completely neglected in this series, loosing to opponents he easily should have won and getting very few successful battles. I have no idea why they chose to glorify Excadrill here by putting it up against Pikachu or even why she has one in the first place (it's not a dragon type).

And why do you say Iris impressive in this tournament. She only got to the final because Axew by fluke learned outrage which it never used again. Ash was the most impressive trainer in this tournament, particularly after Snivy defeated Painward. There was really no reason to have given Iris this tournament at all, especially given things just got worse for Ash as the series progressed and worse so for Pikachu.

This episode is the biggest disaster in the entire anime.

2/10