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The Curtain Rises! The Masters Tournament!! (1204)

AJ97

Well-Known Member
Iris's interaction with Diantha and Cynthia was the best part of the episode
I don't think Iris will be treated badly, she will obviously lose to Cynthia but I see her putting up a good fight and not getting curbstomped
I absolutely love how Ash demolished Hop lol, thats how it should be and fits with Hop's current predicament being that he's yet to go on his journey
The remaining 10 minutes should have just been the champions interacting and talking and by the end of the episode we see Leon vs Alain start, end the episode off with Gigantamax Rillaboom
No hate on Iris but to be fair, considering how strong Leon was shown this episode, there must be someone just as strong for Ash to overcome if they want to convince us that he's ready to face Leon.

Ash already beat Iris. If the latter comes close to beating Cynthia, that would significantly lower the sakes for Ash making it a lot more difficult for one to believe Ash is ready to face Leon.

At least Mega Garchomp should be shown to be much stronger than Iris's team.
 

Kuzehiko

That moment I found a lifetime treasure
Lol Alain got stomped hard
Also how many moves can Leonzard learn? Someone have him stop hacking his Pokemon's moveset back and forth Lol
So much lack of interaction among the champions even when Ash, Alain and Leon weren't in that room. Also Ash preferred to stay and see the battle with Goh instead of Iris and the other champions. Respect for Alain.
I didn’t like that they invested frames of screentime in TRIO. They are absolutely a waste of time.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
You know what's funny? I'm ready for them to have Iris domlish Cynthia only for her to use Mega evolution and win with the writers making it very clear that the only difference in strength and that match being decided was a lack of Haxorus having a gimmick. I get my chaos because that means Iris is stronger than Cynthia base and people get whatever Ash vs Cynthia they want

As long as it's nothing like what just happened.
This would be terrible narratively as we already see Haxorus lose against Ash and Dragonite much earlier.
And now with how strong Leon is and Ash supposedly only losing using Journey's team, they'd need to give Ash much stronger opponents to convince viewers he's at minimum capable of being some form of threat to Leon.

At best, they should've given Iris a Mega Latias as a surprise ace that surpasses base Garchomp, only to force Cynthia to use Mega Evolution to knock it out.
 

PAndrews

Well-Known Member
I rewatched the match and there was no visual cue that Alain took a whole host of recoil damage from Flare Blitz at all unless I'm missing something. Air Slash is fair, but again, the lack of visual cue of how damaged Charizard was supposed to be just wasn't there(maybe you could count Alain returning Base Charizard as that?). The most important thing is that Mega Evolution has usually functioned or at the very least looked like a health booster or a reinvigoration of the Pokemon. Not to mention how tanky Alain's MCX has shown to be in the past.

Not to mention it wasn't as if MCX was caught dead with the Dragon Pulse, he was literally enwrapped in Flare Blitz so the Dragon Pulse got past that as well.

The Air Slash apparently did enough damage to warrent Alain returning it, so it clearly did some good damage. And the anime is highly inconsistent in terms of showing recoil damage and having things like Mega and regular evolution some times healing and sometimes not. Point was more that it wasn't a OHKO (still a ridiculously one-sided massacre that just shows Leon shouldn't be here and should have simply been the opponent for whoever wins instead)

And his MCX has been pretty much obliterated in a few hits before against Mega Blastoise and Mega Metagross, so its not like its always been an invincible tank because the writers like to be inconsistent there (just like one of Ash's Pokemon seems to always get its defense stat reduced to 0 because each match needs one jobber)

What was a "done dirty" thing was how Leon had his mons clearly prepared movewise for Alain (Rillaboom with a 4x Acrobatics & Charizard with a movepool specifically designed around MCX) whereas Alain didn't seem to prepare at all beyond a "mega bulldoze my way through this" mindset (doesn't his MCX know Thunderpunch, why on earth spam dragon claw when you have a super effective move with chance to paralyze). Well that and bringing a Pokemon with a effectively a massive weakness (Grass/FIghting) as your opener to a guy known to spam a Charizard (although Leon effectively opening with a Grass type vs a guy known for having a Mega Fire/Dragon wasn't much smarter)
 

Sham

Paldea Champion
This would be terrible narratively as we already see Haxorus lose against Ash and Dragonite much earlier.
And now with how strong Leon is and Ash supposedly only losing his Journey's team, they'd need to give Ash much stronger opponents to convince viewers he's at minimum capable of being some form of threat to Leon.

At best, they should've given Iris a Mega Latias as a surprise ace that surpasses base Garchomp, only to force Cynthia to use Mega Evolution to knock it out.
And it’s gonna happen. Either Cynthia will get demolished and use a last minute resort (most likely given we’ve seen Mega Garchomp trying to attack Haxorus and failing even while Haxorus is base) or Cynthia is beaten.

The choice is yours but one of those is happening (well I’m being dramatic it’s not but). If this battle is any indication they most likely aren’t switching any Pokémon to save time so Iris might have gotten Cynthia down to Garchomp.

Either way Iris won in terms of strength and just a poor victim of the fact that GF refused any Unova Pokémon Mega Evolution but still gets claps because she did that with base. Happy ending!
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
The Air Slash apparently did enough damage to warrent Alain returning it, so it clearly did some good damage. And the anime is highly inconsistent in terms of showing recoil damage and having things like Mega and regular evolution some times healing and sometimes not. Point was more that it wasn't a OHKO (still a ridiculously one-sided massacre that just shows Leon shouldn't be here and should have simply been the opponent for whoever wins instead)

And his MCX has been pretty much obliterated in a few hits before against Mega Blastoise and Mega Metagross, so its not like its always been an invincible tank because the writers like to be inconsistent there (just like one of Ash's Pokemon seems to always get its defense stat reduced to 0 because each match needs one jobber)

What was a "done dirty" thing was how Leon had his mons clearly prepared movewise for Alain (Rillaboom with a 4x Acrobatics & Charizard with a movepool specifically designed around MCX) whereas Alain didn't seem to prepare at all beyond a "mega bulldoze my way through this" mindset (doesn't his MCX know Thunderpunch, why on earth spam dragon claw when you have a super effective move with chance to paralyze). Well that and bringing a Pokemon with a effectively a massive weakness (Grass/FIghting) as your opener to a guy known to spam a Charizard (although Leon effectively opening with a Grass type vs a guy known for having a Mega Fire/Dragon wasn't much smarter)
Love all the Pokemon Types and Move Type-related logic.
Waiting until Ash's Pikachu beats Mega Metagross with Iron Tail and Maybe Gengar beats a steal type with Sludge Bomb lool.
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
No hate on Iris but to be fair, considering how strong Leon was shown this episode, there must be someone just as strong for Ash to overcome if they want to convince us that he's ready to face Leon.

Ash already beat Iris. If the latter comes close to beating Cynthia, that would significantly lower the sakes for Ash making it a lot more difficult for one to believe Ash is ready to face Leon.

At least Mega Garchomp should be shown to be much stronger than Iris's team.

Cynthia is the considered to be the strongest Champion there is, second only to Leon. It's noticeable that Ash's only loss to Paul in Journeys is to Garchomp.

It's also telling that Cynthia is not on Leon's bracket, but on Ash's. We don't know how powerful Leon is compared to Cynthia, but we can infer that if anyone could make Leon sweat, it's Cynthia.

Ash defeating Cynthia would give him creds to defeat Leon.
 

PAndrews

Well-Known Member
Not sure how Leon knew he was fighting Alain in the first round or how his Charizard current moves are super effective toward Fire, Flying, or Dragon Type.

Maybe he has a bag of TM's in the dressingroom (well that or he rigged the matchups and knew who he'd fight :p)
Fact remains he's been shown to constantly change the moves before fighting people and this time he changed the movepool to include Ancient Power (4x effective against Fire/Flying & 2x against Fire/Dragon) and Dragon Pulse (2x effective against Fire/Dragon). So he clearly made his Charizard a MCX counter

Whats more surprising is Alain basically not preparing for the guy ranked nr1 and not only opening with a Grass/Fighting mon but also forgetting Thunder Punch and sticking to Flare Blitz and Dragon Claw when fighting a Fire/Flying opponent :S
 

Gingertail24

Well-Known Member
I feel like this was rushed and the constant one shots is due to the anime having to establish the M8 tournament opening, hop, hops battle, etc. Giving not much room for the battle

The other battle could be better due to them being able to just go straight into the battle
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
And it’s gonna happen. Either Cynthia will get demolished and use a last minute resort (most likely given we’ve seen Mega Garchomp trying to attack Haxorus and failing even while Haxorus is base) or Cynthia is beaten. The choice is yours but one of those is happening. If this battle is any indication they most likely aren’t switching any Pokémon to save time so Iris might have gotten Cynthia down to Garchomp.
Iris and Cynthia are far more important plot-wise than Alain. A lot more attention could be given to their battle.
Not necessary. For all you know, they could even have Cynthia train Iris without really getting serious and finally reveal her true power (Similar pacing like the AG versus Diantha battle).
Either way Iris won in terms of strength and just a poor victim of the fact that GF refused any Unova Pokémon Mega Evolution but still gets claps because she did that with base. Happy ending!
A gimmick is not always needed to win. Today's battle proved that. We've also seen Ash beat Drasna without a gimmick.
 
And the anime is highly inconsistent in terms of showing recoil damage and having things like Mega and regular evolution some times healing and sometimes not.
I don't know if you can just insert game logic as a backstop in place to try and justify the inconsistency. I have the same opinion on things like " boosting stats " and " super effective moves " because the inconsistencies and the logic used to defend events like this are similarly inconsistent and just used when it's convenient, often to defend bad writing. The principle is simple, if it isn't mentioned as a part of the narrative or we aren't given a visual cue, I don't see how one could just fallback to game logic given the anime has regularly not given a f*ck about it unless it's convenient.
And his MCX has been pretty much obliterated in a few hits before against Mega Blastoise and Mega Metagross, so its not like its always been an invincible tank because the writers like to be inconsistent there (just like one of Ash's Pokemon seems to always get its defense stat reduced to 0 because each match needs one jobber)
Not sure how one can use the Mega Blastoise battle given that Alain improved significantly from the first ME special to the last, as well as his display in the mainline series. If I remember correctly, MCX was also still in the fight with MM and this was still just the second special episode.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
The remaining 10 minutes should have just been the champions interacting and talking and by the end of the episode we see Leon vs Alain start, end the episode off with Gigantamax Rillaboom

That doesn't really happen though, does it? It's a very kinetic show, there's not a lot of slower dialogue scenes like Better Call Saul or something. The idea that they'd dedicate 10m to the champions having a pleasant chat is not really something the show would do.

That said, yes, I think your idea of ending it with Leon G-Maxing Rillaboom would have been far better. It'll be interesting to see what episodes they have planned that will make rushing this battle such a necessity... if there's ANY filler (and there probably will be) between now and S/V's release, then I'd be pretty annoyed that they couldn't have axed that in favour of giving this battle more time.
 

diakyu

Well-Known Member
You know that meme of the soldiers up against a wall and in the middle of the group is a dude in full clown dress

I think you know where I'm going
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
Cynthia is the considered to be the strongest Champion there is, second only to Leon. It's noticeable that Ash's only loss to Paul in Journeys is to Garchomp.

It's also telling that Cynthia is not on Leon's bracket, but on Ash's. We don't know how powerful Leon is compared to Cynthia, but we can infer that if anyone could make Leon sweat, it's Cynthia.

Ash defeating Cynthia would give him creds to defeat Leon.
I agree with all this. However, if Iris is capable of fighting Cynthia and forcing her to go all out, that changes everything.
We already saw her lose against Ash and they have not done anything to indicate Iris getting so much stronger since then to indicate this.
Making Mega Garchomp struggle doesnt lower the stakes at all if M garchomp still wins, esp as Cynthia will also use other mons against Ash different from the ones she used against Iris I bet. Kiawe beating Lycanrock didnt lower the stakes at all, so yes Iris deserves to put up a good fight
Lets be real. We all know Garchomp is the Pokemon that truly matters while fighting Cynthia. Unless Cynthia reveals a secret Rayquaza or something which isn't going to happen.
You're using a Kiawe example here? lol.

This is a tournament for Ash to battle the strongest trainer in the world and we just saw how effortlessly Leon destroyed Alain. If they want to narratively convince Ash is ready to at bare minimum, be Leon's strongest challenger, he needs one more rough obstacle to overcome and the perfect candidate is Cynthia. However, Iris forcing Cynthia to go all out completely spoils this as Iris's strength was trivialised based on her last battle with Ash. Iris should've won that battle for it to make any sense. Or they should reveal a new secret ace for Iris in this battle.
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
I agree with all this. However, if Iris is capable of fighting Cynthia and forcing her to go all out, that changes everything.
We already saw her lose against Ash and they have not done anything to indicate Iris getting so much stronger since then to indicate this.

If Cynthia curb stomps Iris, then people would not believe that Ash would be able to defeat Cynthia, let alone Leon.

The truth is... for Leon to seem beatable, either Lance or Diantha will have to push him further to the brink then ever before. Maybe knock out two of Leon's Pokémon and force Leon to use Gigantamax.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
The Air Slash apparently did enough damage to warrent Alain returning it, so it clearly did some good damage. And the anime is highly inconsistent in terms of showing recoil damage and having things like Mega and regular evolution some times healing and sometimes not. Point was more that it wasn't a OHKO (still a ridiculously one-sided massacre that just shows Leon shouldn't be here and should have simply been the opponent for whoever wins instead)

And his MCX has been pretty much obliterated in a few hits before against Mega Blastoise and Mega Metagross, so its not like its always been an invincible tank because the writers like to be inconsistent there (just like one of Ash's Pokemon seems to always get its defense stat reduced to 0 because each match needs one jobber)

What was a "done dirty" thing was how Leon had his mons clearly prepared movewise for Alain (Rillaboom with a 4x Acrobatics & Charizard with a movepool specifically designed around MCX) whereas Alain didn't seem to prepare at all beyond a "mega bulldoze my way through this" mindset (doesn't his MCX know Thunderpunch, why on earth spam dragon claw when you have a super effective move with chance to paralyze). Well that and bringing a Pokemon with a effectively a massive weakness (Grass/FIghting) as your opener to a guy known to spam a Charizard (although Leon effectively opening with a Grass type vs a guy known for having a Mega Fire/Dragon wasn't much smarter)
In a way, Leon's Charizard's moveset does make sense.

Considering how OP he is, you can assume he probably only considers Cynthia, Steven and Maybe Lance a threat (Because of their last battle).
Fire Blast - For Metagross
Ancient Power - For Gyarados
Dragon Pulse - For Garchomp

He always keeps Air Slash on Charizard (Probably for Max Airstream and the speed boost).
 
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