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The Curtain Rises! The Masters Tournament!! (1204)

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
So all of these episodes are happening within a day? That’s interesting
 

RLC

Well-Known Member
After reading some of comments I've been wondering if it would be better if Leon didn't compete like Kukui, but I'm not sure. I want to see him battle, and unlike Kukui, he's not the organizer of the event (I think kukui's being the overseer of the league was why he didn't take part, but this is just an educated guess, nothing canon). He's a participant, and it's only fair that he has to work his way up like every other competitor.

I just wish Alan put up more of a fight. It's just hard to stomach him going down so easily, especially since Leon vs Lance/Raihan showed Leon wining comfortably while making his opponents not feel weak. I just hope whoever faces leon next won't get the same treatment.

Btw MCX VS MAX ZARD, I think, was a huge missed opportunity; sometimes the rule of cool is better than unpredictability. I just wasn't interested in Chesnaught battling this gen grass starter using gimmicks when an easily cooler battle was right there. I mean, this is the M8 with champion level trainers, just dazzle us with some cool stuff.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
Okay thinking back on it a little bit, I’ll give this a try. As a somewhat possible explanation for Alains “character assassination” this episode, assuming Alain is actually gonna stick around with the champions to watch the rest of the M8 happen, does anyone think it’s somewhat possible that Alain seemed “cold” to ash and didn’t interact with him this episode because Alain was on a “one tracked mind” here to win the tournament? To clarify, this isn’t to try justifying the overall mishandling of his character but rather try explaining the seriousness he displayed here and the lack of interacting.

If there’s one thing about Alains character that remains the same, its how one tracked focused he can be about battling and winning, most especially against opponents comparable to his level and people deemed as threats. The M8 fits this category to a T, more than anything Alains ever faced before by a country mile, when here he’s facing the 8 strongest trainers in the world. The atmosphere here for this tournament is extremely intense, hence why all of the champions besides Ash and Iris had those cold looks we saw when surrounding each other. Even Leon, whos basically an adult Ash, had an uber-focused “angry” look on his face before the battle started that made Ash and Iris surprised on what they walked in on.

On top of that, since Alains first opponent was literally the world champion, it’s obvious that Alains gotta give his absolute A-game, 110% full effort, no holding back in any conceivable way, if he wanted any chance of winning. One slip up and it’s over from his perspective. So exclusively focusing all his time and energy on the battles and not interacting with anyone seems logical from that standpoint.

So while this does not give reasons for mishandling his character overall, anyone think it is possible this is what they were going for? That Alain didn’t interact with Ash or the other champs because he was just super focused on getting through his own battles? Again, this assumes Alains gonna stick around after his defeat.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
The fact that Leon decided to Gigantamax his Rillaboom at the very start of the battle shows that he wasn't taking on Alain too seriously. He knew for a fact that he was about to sweep the poor guy.
Considering how the Gmax didn’t even do much because Chesnaught stalled it out, you could even make the argument that Leon didn’t even need any mechanic here to win. Insane lol.

By the way, I kinda wished they would’ve given Leon’s Rillaboom it’s HA, having grassy terrain to give his team that healing effect would’ve been an interesting add on to his strategy.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
So Greninja was used and owned by who? Sawyer, Diantha?
It was owned by Ash.

What even is this stupid response...
Yes and? That doesn’t change my point that 98% of Alain and Ash’s whole rivalry is summed up by Greninja and MCX being the competitors because the rivarly practically doesn’t exist outside of those 2 and the bond phenomenon is arguably the only reason Alain had any interest in Ash in the first place as someone on an earlier page put it.

Aka, Ash and Alain felt more as accessories to their Pokémon.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
So is Iris.
Which is BS writing.
At least in the case of Alain, they didn't indicate anything. So one can also assume he's been there for a while.
In the case of Iris, she started much below Ash and was in the Super Class. It makes no sense how she overtook Ash when
1) Ash won all his Hyper Class battles
2) Hyper Class battles are scheduled and always
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
Yes and? That doesn’t change my point that 98% of Alain and Ash’s whole rivalry is summed up by Greninja and MCX being the competitors because the rivarly practically doesn’t exist outside of those 2 and the bond phenomenon is arguably the only reason Alain had any interest in Ash as someone on an earlier page put it.

Aka, Ash and Alain felt more as accessories to their Pokémon.
The same could be said about Bea and Lucario.
Also in case of Sawyer and Ash where the rivalry was centered Around Sceptile and Greninja.

The only difference in Alain from the previous 2 cases, has to do with the fact, that he's primarily focuses on training MCX (Instead of just being a strong trainer) [At least before the PWC].

Your point is stupid because Greninja/Ash Greninja is still a trainer-owned pokemon. Alain unlike Ash, was previously not a regular competitive trainer interested in having a strong team of pokemon. His primary goal always centered around being the strongest with his Charizard. So it makes sense for him to form a Rivalry with Ash, as he had an interest in strong Pokemon that could push MCX.

Definition of Rival:
a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity.

Alain was a Main Rival period.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
The same could be said about Bea and Lucario.
Also in case of Sawyer and Ash where the rivalry was centered Around Sceptile and Greninja.
Sawyer seeing Ash as a role model to look up to and follow is easily a much bigger foundation for a rivarly than what Alain and Ash got, especially when Sawyer appeared much earlier than Alain did to establish him as a rivalry and Sawyer was already a rival before the Bond Phenomenon became a thing. You can’t equate that to Alain, who appeared later than halfway into the entirety of XY and right around the time Ash-Greninja stole the show away from Ash’s team.

Bea is also problematic so I don’t know what bringing her up was supposed to do. But even her competition with Ash feels more “natural” or closer to a rivarly when she wasn’t focused solely on Lucario because of some special power it has, and neither was Ash using Lucario for a reason like that too. Lucario is the main aspect of the rivalry with Bea and Grapploct simply because the latter beat the former (both of which are fighting types by the way) and the former and his trainer wanted payback against them in order to advance further into the competition.
Your point is stupid because Greninja/Ash Greninja is still a trainer-owned pokemon. Alain unlike Ash, was previously not a regular competitive trainer interested in having a strong team of pokemon. His primary goal always centered around being the strongest with his Charizard. So it makes sense for him to form a Rivalry with Ash, as he had an interest in strong Pokemon that could push MCX.
I don’t think your understanding my point here. What does any of this have to do with my point that Ash and Alains “rivalry” is basically summed up as Greninja and MCX being competitors with each other?

It doesn’t matter whether or not Charizard was the Pokémon of focus for Alain, the point is, Alains interest in Ash in the first place is, as Aurachan on an earlier page mentioned, because of the bond phenomenon and it’s similarities with mega evolution and whatnot. Alain couldn’t give a rats ass about any of Ash’s other Pokémon besides Greninja and why? Because of the Ash-Greninja form.

My whole point from before is that Ash and Alains “rivarly” makes them take the form of accessories to their competing pokemon (Greninja and MCX) rather than those 2 having any actual personal stakes between each other that a rivarly should and would normally have, which there wasn’t. There was no personal stakes between those 2, nor any of their Pokémon, besides Greninja and MCX (and the former Pokémon could care less about being stronger or weaker than Zard).

This isn’t about not considering Alain a rival at all, it’s about his rivarly with Ash hardly being one and moreso just competitive banter between their 2 aces. Yes by technical standards he’s a “main rival”, but underneath it all, there’s not much there.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
After reading some of comments I've been wondering if it would be better if Leon didn't compete like Kukui, but I'm not sure. I want to see him battle, and unlike Kukui, he's not the organizer of the event (I think kukui's being the overseer of the league was why he didn't take part, but this is just an educated guess, nothing canon). He's a participant, and it's only fair that he has to work his way up like every other competitor.

I just wish Alan put up more of a fight. It's just hard to stomach him going down so easily, especially since Leon vs Lance/Raihan showed Leon wining comfortably while making his opponents not feel weak. I just hope whoever faces leon next won't get the same treatment.

Btw MCX VS MAX ZARD, I think, was a huge missed opportunity; sometimes the rule of cool is better than unpredictability. I just wasn't interested in Chesnaught battling this gen grass starter using gimmicks when an easily cooler battle was right there. I mean, this is the M8 with champion level trainers, just dazzle us with some cool stuff.
The issue kinda with this is it’s bad enough there is already Ash protected by plot, now it’s both? That makes almost half of these battle completely predictable considering they could of simply removed him and have defend his title against the winner.

Serena didn’t compete against Aria until she beat out the other contestants and got in the finals and it’s not like he hasn’t battled onscreen. It just seems like other Champions are here so so they could get easily beaten when technically they’re all Champions at some level and shouldn’t be complete jobbers at all
 

Gale_

Member
Considering how the Gmax didn’t even do much because Chesnaught stalled it out, you could even make the argument that Leon didn’t even need any mechanic here to win. Insane lol.

By the way, I kinda wished they would’ve given Leon’s Rillaboom it’s HA, having grassy terrain to give his team that healing effect would’ve been an interesting add on to his strategy.

That's true, seems like he just wanted to show off his Gmax Rillaboom lol. Grassy terrain would have definitely spiced up the battle some, was a missed opportunity imo.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
Goh cheering for Ash and Iris and fan boying (bonus that Hop was shocked he knew her, best girl is a literal celebrity) was so wholesome. Honestly he’s growing on me a bit more.

Hopefully him and Hop have some good bonding moments
 
Which is BS writing.
At least in the case of Alain, they didn't indicate anything. So one can also assume he's been there for a while.
In the case of Iris, she started much below Ash and was in the Super Class. It makes no sense how she overtook Ash when
1) Ash won all his Hyper Class battles
2) Hyper Class battles are scheduled and always
Because Iris defeat #7 in promotion battle. Maybe... this is just speculation:

#9 get the advantage to battle #8 (instead of higher ranked opponent) which means #9 has better chance to get promoted.

#10 have to battle with #7
#11 have to battle with #6

If they win, they will get higher rank, but the risk of failure to get to master 8 tournament is higher.

If this system is in place, that would mean Iris was #10 while Alain was #11 before the promotion battle.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
That's true, seems like he just wanted to show off his Gmax Rillaboom lol. Grassy terrain would have definitely spiced up the battle some, was a missed opportunity imo.
Exactly lol and doesn’t it also heal the opponents pokemon too if they use grass types?

Since Leon wasn’t expecting Chesnaught, using Rillabooms grassy terrain to try getting in passive healing only to find out Alain’s grass type would get it too would literally make their grass type showdown more even lol.
 
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