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The Death Penalty

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by Bananarama, Apr 15, 2017.

  1. Morton Belgram

    Morton Belgram Well-Known Member

    No, it doesn't. The death penalty ensures that murder does not happen (if the country has a rich population, look at Singapore, Japan, Brunei, etc.), so it results in less wrongs being comitted.

    I view the death penalty as a protection for the people, because that's basically what it does. It protects people from being murdered.
     
  2. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    So clearly, countries with the death penalty must also have lower murder rat...

    Oh.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  3. Morton Belgram

    Morton Belgram Well-Known Member

    1) You didn't understand what I said.
    2) You need to do some more research.

    The death penalty alone is not enough if the people have bad living standards.

    Brunei has the death penalty, yet its extremely low murder rate puts most Western countries to shame (except Monaco and Liechtenstein, which are so small that it would be a shock if any murder occured there, and Iceland). Death penalty is not a MUST to hinder murders from happening, as you can merely satisfy people with money, but if the death penalty is carried out strictly enough and there are no legal loopholes for the murderes to get out of the situation, then any rich nation would immediately gets at murderless as Brunei.

    Singapore, another rich country with the death penalty, makes peaceful Denmark look like a scary murderous place when looking at the murder rates, lol. There are actually quite a lot of examples. I guess you have just been looking at the wrong numbers.

    The conclusion is:
    You can't stop murders by implanting the death penalty loosely on a poor population.
    You have to implant it strictly, on a rich population, and the result will be an almost crimefree society.
     
  4. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    Mate, you could try doing any research rather than flinging out assertions without basis other than your own logic. Come on, stats! I'm all ears. You'll have to demonstrate to me how it is that the richest nation on Earth, with the fourth richest population on Earth, with both the death penalty and a notoriously high prison population, has higher crime rates than poorer states developed states without the death penalty and more lenient sentences?

    If your assertion was true, wouldn't it also be the case that in rich countries that crime increases as executions fall? Because again, it doesn't seem to be the case in the richest nation on Earth.
     
  5. Morton Belgram

    Morton Belgram Well-Known Member

    If you're referring to USA, with their ghetto people and butter execution system, then yeah, horrible example.
    http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Murder-rate

    How come the murder rate is so much lower in rich states WITH the death penalty?

    Explain to me why USA is so violent. Perhaps, if USA implanted death penalty more in the same sense as Singapore and other countries with proper strict death penalties, and if USA didn't have to many ghetto people and all this racist tension, then yeah, USA would manage to be as peaceful as the rich countries with death penalty. People are way richer in Singapore and Brunei than in the USA and they have a way stricter death penalty system. Those two factors are the reasons why they have so little murder compared to USA. USA's death penalty system is a joke. Look how few executions compared to the amount of murders, lol.

    Make the American people richer and make the punishment stricter, there you go, a murderless America, just like Singapore and Brunei.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  6. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    This word is all you have - no actual evidence, just assertions. You need to demonstrate a relationship.

    You forgot to include the link that demonstrates correlation. You can't, or else rich Western states without the death penalty wouldn't have lower crime rates than the US.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  7. Morton Belgram

    Morton Belgram Well-Known Member

    No, the word is not all I have. I have the numbers. Looking at all states, by the numbers of GDP per capita and by murder rate, you will see a pattern.

    Low GDP per capita, regardless of death penalty or not = Murders will happen.
    High GDP per capita and loose death penalty or no death penalty = Variates. Iceland is great and peaceful, USA is dangerous.
    High GDP per capita and strict death penalty = Almost guaranteed no murders (examples, Brunei and Singapore).
    Very small nations and islands where everyone knows each other, regardless of death penalty or not = Almost guaranteed no murders.

    If you should find some numbers to prove my claim (factually based on numbers) wrong, then try.

    A nation can be peaceful with or without the death penalty, as Iceland proves, but no rich countries with a strict death penalty system posseses any significant murder problems at all. The numbers don't lie.

    Please read up, bro.

    Oh, and in Singapore and Brunei, murderes actually do get executed. In USA, there are almost no executions despite the massive amount of murders. Don't call USA a nation with "the death penalty", unless you remember to call it "butter death penalty" or "loose death penalty", be specific so you don't misinform people.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  8. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    So, of your four points, only one might - might - suggest a correlation between the death penalty and low murder rates.

    So... no correlation?

    So... a correlation in the opposite direction? Rich Western states without the death penalty are safer, rich Western states with the death penalty are more dangerous?

    So... no correlation?

    Camembert consumption in Singapore is also very low. Clearly, it's the cheese driving people to murder.
     
  9. Morton Belgram

    Morton Belgram Well-Known Member

    The people of Iceland are richer than the people of USA, they have a higher average IQ than the people of USA.
    In Iceland, there are no ghettos or seriously poor people.
    Those are the reasons why Iceland is safer.

    The American death penalty carries no weight when comparing USA to Iceland, due to the death penalty barely being carried out, which is why I put them in the same category.

    You still seem to avoid the point... Mention me one country which is:
    1) Rich, to the degree of almost no poverty, and
    2) Carries out the death penalty strictly, no loopholes.

    If you can mention me such a country which has a significant murder rate, then you would have a point, but you can't. The combination of strict death penalty and a rich population is proven in practice to eliminate murders.
     
  10. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    Er, no. The US has higher PPP per capita, and the difference in average IQ is a whopping three.

    Why is France safer? France has plenty of banlieues, and lower PPP.

    I don't have to, because I'm not the one trying prove a correlation. You've named three countries out of two hundred with both the death penalty and low murder rates (and gun control, I might add), and hand-waved away every example to the contrary. You've admitted yourself that there are scores of nations where the death penalty either appears to not have any effect at all or an effect to the contrary.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  11. Morton Belgram

    Morton Belgram Well-Known Member

    Please quote where I admitted that the death penalty has no effect or a contrary effect. You may carry that naive belief, but do not ascribe it to me.
    While you're at it, tell me in which nation the death penalty has made murder rates increase? With numbers, please.

    And once again, you're claiming wrong things. Iceland has a higher GDP than USA.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
     
  12. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    I'll let you off, though I was quite clearly referring to PPP, the more representative figure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    I can't demonstrate concrete causation, but that was never my point - neither can you. I don't have to prove the contrary, because you can't demonstrate a consistent trend. You have three nations that might demonstrate correlation. Why did you dismiss the example of France, by the way?
     
  13. Morton Belgram

    Morton Belgram Well-Known Member

    Do I only have three? So if I inform you about more than those three, will you then admit the existence of correlation?
    And if you do not know about the nations I will mention, do you then admit that you did not read up on the statistics I sent from Nationmaster?
     
  14. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    No, because here's thing - I can go to the exact same list, and pick out exactly the same number of rich countries without the death penalty from the bottom 10%.

    Why did you dismiss the example of France, by the way?
     
  15. Morton Belgram

    Morton Belgram Well-Known Member

    Yes, you can pick out rich nations from the list who does well without the death penalty. That merely proves one of my points, which was that the death penalty is not neccessary (though a clear improvement).
    However, you can not pick out a nation on the list with a high murder rate which is both rich and has a strict death penalty system (not the creamy butter system of USA).

    And there lies the point. There are many rich nations with the death penalty. None of them have problems with murder.
    Likewise, there are many rich nations who either doesn't have the death penalty (like Iceland) or has a irrelevant form of death penalty (like USA). Several of them have problems with murders.

    So, we see that the death penalty is not neccesary, but that it, in combination with a rich population, ALWAYS turns out to eliminate murder. A rich population makes a low murder rate likely, but a rich population with a strict death penalty is a guarantee that murder will be almost nonexistent.
     
  16. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    See, if you're going to sell your entire argument on basis that some rich nations with the death penalty ALWAYS perform marginally better than nations without it... you're going to have to make sure that it's actually the case, and that, say, Hong Kong doesn't come out on top in your very own source.

    How have you determined that it's statistically irrelevant? I mean, you neglected to mention that Brunei hasn't executed anyone in over 30 years? Bahrain averages about 0.5 executions per year since 2007?

    Why did you dismiss the example of France by the way?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  17. Bananarama

    Bananarama The light is coming

    You do realize that "ghetto" is a racist dog whistle, right? I sincerely hope you aren't implying that working-class people of color are responsible for crime.
     
  18. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    Rather than keeping murderers and rapists in prison for the rest of their lives thereby wasting taxpayer money(it costs so much), I'm inclined to support the death penalty

    There are some people who just can't be rehabilitated.
     
  19. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    Perhaps there are.

    But it's actually more expensive to execute prisoners than to keep them prison for the rest of their natural lives.

    https://theconversation.com/the-dea...-more-and-more-expensive-is-it-worth-it-74294
     

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