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The Death Penalty

Bananarama

The light is coming
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justi...h-penalty-debate-concern-for-the-executioners

The state of Arkansas plans to execute 7 inmates within 11 days.

While this decision was blocked by a court a little while ago, this has had me thinking about the capital punishment debate. Is capital punishment a "cruel and unusual" punishment? Under what circumstances, if any, should it be allowed? Is it a suitable form of justice? And should it even be legal in the first place?

I'm personally completely opposed to the death penalty. I think it is a waste of taxpayer money, and I don't see it as a deterrent to violent crimes like murder.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
If the Death Penalty actually deterred crime there would be a much bigger debate I think, because for all the moral arguments if the result was lower serious crimes then it gets tricky. However it's the opposite and that's not the case, those areas with the death penalty have higher rates. There's also the massive time wait for an execution to take place, with an average time of over 10 years.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
Among "western" countries the United States is alone in its commitment to the death penalty. Australia, New Zealand, the UK and all the EU states, as well as most South America states abandoned the practice decades ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment

I think it's been clear for a long period of time that the death penalty does not serve any logical purpose. Check out this Australian Institute of Criminology paper from 1987 - 10 years after last person sentenced to death was hanged in Australia. It basically shoots out of the water any potential argument for the death penalty reconcilable with what are generally considered the principals and goals of criminal punishment - it's not a deterrence to violent crime, it doesn't prevent recidivism because murder doesn't have high rates of recidivism to begin with, it's certainly not rehabilitative and there is a terrible risk of executing innocent people. The only arguments that really hold water centre around retribution and proportionality because there founded on abstract moral and ethical grounds with little grounding in the practical.

As for whether it's a "cruel and unusual" punishment, the question is more vexed. Cruel and unusual is a legal concept derived from the 8th amendment to the US constitution. Thus far the US Supreme Court has never ruled that capital punishment in and of itself is impermissible as cruel and unusual punishment. All they've done so far is impose certain limits on who can be executed, when and in what method: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/death_penalty

The majority opinion in the controlling case. Gregg v Georgia rejected the notion that the death penalty was cruel stating:

[T]he punishment of death is not cruel within the meaning of that word as used in the Constitution. It implies there something inhuman and barbarous, something more than the mere extinguishment of life.

Again, in Louisiana ex rel. Francis v. Resweber, 329 U.S. at 464, the Court remarked:

The cruelty against which the Constitution protects a convicted man is cruelty inherent in the method of punishment, not the necessary suffering involved in any method employed to extinguish life humanely.

And in Trop v. Dulles, 356 U.S. at 99, Mr. Chief Justice Warren, for himself and three other Justices, wrote:

Whatever the arguments may be against capital punishment, both on moral grounds and in terms of accomplishing the purposes of punishment . . . , the death penalty has been employed throughout our history, and, in a day when it is still widely accepted, it cannot be said to violate the constitutional concept of cruelty.

The Court established two conditions that had to be satisfied by State Death Penalty statutes:

  1. First, the scheme must provide objective criteria to direct and limit the death sentencing discretion. The objectiveness of these criteria must in turn be ensured by appellate review of all death sentences.
  2. Second, the scheme must allow the sentencer (whether judge or jury) to take into account the character and record of an individual defendant

In summary, the concerns expressed in Furman that the penalty of death not be imposed in an arbitrary or capricious manner can be met by a carefully drafted statute that ensures that the sentencing authority is given adequate information and guidance. As a general proposition, these concerns are best met by a system that provides for a bifurcated proceeding at which the sentencing authority is apprised of the information relevant to the imposition of sentence and provided with standards to guide its use of the information.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/428/153
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_v._Georgia

The UN Human Rights Committee has reached similar conclusions in it's interpretation of Article 36 of the ICCPR. Despite favouring Abolition, it stated that:

While it follows from article 6 (2) to (6) that States parties are not obliged to abolish the death penalty totally they are obliged to limit its use and, in particular, to abolish it for other than the “most serious crimes”. Accordingly, they ought to consider reviewing their criminal laws in this light and, in any event, are obliged to restrict the application of the death penalty to the “most serious crimes”. The article also refers generally to abolition in terms which strongly suggest (paras. 2 (2) and (6)) that abolition is desirable.

http://www.refworld.org/docid/45388400a.html

So it seems that in spite of the fact the death penalty isn't logically defensible, judicial bodies are reluctant to rule decisively against it.

But this is not universal. The South African Constitutional Court in S v Makwanyane did rule the death penalty was constitionally impermissible as it violated rights against Cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment: http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZACC/1995/3.html

The carrying out of the death sentence destroys life, which is protected without reservation under section 9 of our Constitution, it annihilates human dignity which is protected under section 10, elements of arbitrariness are present in its enforcement and it is irremediable. Taking these factors into account, as well as the assumption that I have made in regard to public opinion in South Africa, and giving the words of section 11(2) the broader meaning to which they are entitled at this stage of the enquiry, rather than a narrow meaning,122 I am satisfied that in the context of our Constitution the death penalty is indeed a cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment
 
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chess-z

campy vampire
tbh this is yet another case where the US has a lot of catching up to do with the rest of the world

it's pretty vile that we still have it
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
The death penalty doesn't reduce crime at all. For it to reduce crime in an area, one must make the death drawn out and very public. We don't do public deaths, therefore criminals can't fear anything.
 

GrizzlyB

Confused and Dazed
I am staunchly against the death penalty. Well, not so much "anti-death-penalty" as I am "pro-locking-people-in-a-box-for-the-rest-of-their-natural-life". That is unquestionably more humane.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
The new Supreme Court just reversed the decision stopping the death penalty being fast tracked, so the DNA evidence won't be looked over and no one is allowed into the room.
 
In theory, I don't have an issue with it. I think it's possible that someone can be beyond rehabilitation and more dangerous to society left alive. Even people doing life still manage, somehow, to gank people outside prison walls. Happens all the time. The problem is that it's too permanent of a solution to be wielded by imperfect people. I think it's definitely a deterrent. Let's be serious, no one wants to die. The reason it isn't is because we barely execute anybody, not because it's intrinsically less of a deterrent than life or because "criminals don't care if they die." Sure they do. It's just that you're not going to refrain from killing twenty women if there's only a less than 1% chance you'll actually get the needle even if you're caught.

Unless a 100% fool proof way is devised to execute killers with certainty, and they actually do it, then it's best to get rid of it.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
I am staunchly against the death penalty. Well, not so much "anti-death-penalty" as I am "pro-locking-people-in-a-box-for-the-rest-of-their-natural-life". That is unquestionably more humane.

I have a rather unique stance on the death penalty (and due to being someone who had family and friends murdered, it goes without saying that I have a unique perspective on it, and am probably more qualified to talk about it than most people here). I think it should be up to the victims or the victims' families on a case-by-case basis after the conviction has happened.

However, I would say that they should not make the decision right away. They should wait a few weeks at minimum, preferably a month or two.

My final point. I find it really offensive when people talk about 'rights' and how 'inhumane' it is to execute someone, so my question is this. What about the rights of the victim? Was what happened to them 'humane'? Or do they not matter in this?
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical Optimist
I have a rather unique stance on the death penalty (and due to being someone who had family and friends murdered, it goes without saying that I have a unique perspective on it, and am probably more qualified to talk about it than most people here). I think it should be up to the victims or the victims' families on a case-by-case basis after the conviction has happened.

However, I would say that they should not make the decision right away. They should wait a few weeks at minimum, preferably a month or two.

My final point. I find it really offensive when people talk about 'rights' and how 'inhumane' it is to execute someone, so my question is this. What about the rights of the victim? Was what happened to them 'humane'? Or do they not matter in this?

I completely disagree that you have more qualifications to talk about it since you have had a family member murdered... as unfortunate as that is. It doesn't make you more qualified in handling another person's life because one was stolen from your life.
I would say the family should have NO decision in the case whatsoever as they would be COMPLETELY biased to a point that they wouldn't be able to think rationally.
They wouldn't be able to properly look at the facts and the chances of rehabilitation for the suspect.

If the chances of rehabilitation are zero and they cant do anything for society then I think the death penalty could be used, but then anyone can have a use in society. I don't believe in the death penalty unless you're relatable on Hitler's level.

it is inhumane to kill someone, but two wrongs don't make a right.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
I completely disagree that you have more qualifications to talk about it since you have had a family member murdered... as unfortunate as that is. It doesn't make you more qualified in handling another person's life because one was stolen from your life.
I would say the family should have NO decision in the case whatsoever as they would be COMPLETELY biased to a point that they wouldn't be able to think rationally.
They wouldn't be able to properly look at the facts and the chances of rehabilitation for the suspect.

If the chances of rehabilitation are zero and they cant do anything for society then I think the death penalty could be used, but then anyone can have a use in society. I don't believe in the death penalty unless you're relatable on Hitler's level.

That's why you have them wait a month or so, as I said. So the impulse is gone. Though personally, I believe anyone who murders another person for any reason other than self-defense is beyond any chance of rehabilitation.

And by the way, the family member that was murdered in my case was a baby. And the murderer who we know for a fact did it, did so because his ex (another family member of mine) was trying to get away from an abusive relationship. And he did it to both spite her and to try and reassert control over her. So yes, I would say that I am more qualified to talk about it, because I have a unique perspective on it that few people on this site have.

Most people are able to evade the issue because it never happened to them personally, but when it does then they gain new perspective and often times it changes their opinions.

Anyway, I noticed my questions were 'overlooked', which seems to be a trend on this site. Here they are again.

What about the rights of the victim? Was what happened to them 'humane'? Or do they not matter in this?


And that's pretty much it. I can't think of anything else to add to this.
 
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lemoncatpower

Cynical Optimist
That's why you have them wait a month or so, as I said. So the impulse is gone. Though personally, I believe anyone who murders another person for any reason other than self-defense is beyond any chance of rehabilitation.

And by the way, the family member that was murdered in my case was a baby. And the murderer who we know for a fact did it, did so because his ex (another family member of mine) was trying to get away from an abusive relationship. And he did it to both spite her and to try and reassert control over her. So yes, I would say that I am more qualified to talk about it, because I have a unique perspective on it that few people on this site have.

Most people are able to evade the issue because it never happened to them personally, but when it does then they gain new perspective and often times it changes their opinions.

Anyway, I noticed my questions were 'overlooked', which seems to be a trend on this site. Here they are again.

What about the rights of the victim? Was what happened to them 'humane'? Or do they not matter in this?


And that's pretty much it. I can't think of anything else to add to this.

It doesn't matter who in your family died, I stand by saying that you should not have any say in the decision of the death penalty.

Your questions weren't overlooked. What of the rights of the victim? They're dead and the family has to learn how to cope and grieve properly. Like I said, two wrongs simply don't make a right, so two inhumane acts don't make it one humane situation. This one person who murdered your family member has apparently turned your whole family into people who like murder. To say, well they did it first, doesn't make the death penalty not murder.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
It doesn't matter who in your family died, I stand by saying that you should not have any say in the decision of the death penalty.

Your questions weren't overlooked. What of the rights of the victim? They're dead and the family has to learn how to cope and grieve properly. Like I said, two wrongs simply don't make a right, so two inhumane acts don't make it one humane situation. This one person who murdered your family member has apparently turned your whole family into people who like murder. To say, well they did it first, doesn't make the death penalty not murder.

Remarks like this definitely sounds like the kind of thing someone who has never had to face this would say. But as I said, when you go through it, your outlook on it often changes. Call it what you want, but I call things like capital punishment justice.

We didn't choose for our family member to be murdered. But it happened anyway.

Of course, that doesn't matter to you. Based on what you said, I got your answer loud and clear. The victims don't matter to you one bit. On the contrary, you've made it explicitly clear that to you, they're somehow the ones to blame and that they somehow like murder.

Again, I kind of had an inkling that this was the view of serebiiforums, but thank you for confirming it. While I'm not fond of the answer, I can't say I'm surprised by it. It's again the sort of thing I've come to expect from this site.
 
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mtqc

MY BEANS!
Based on what you said, I got your answer loud and clear. The victims don't matter to you one bit. On the contrary, you've made it explicitly clear that to you, they're somehow the ones to blame and that they somehow like murder.

Question... how do the victims have a say in who should live and die after the fact? This argument confuses me. Just because capital punishment is deemed cruel and unusual to some, these people now suddenly don't care about the victims of murder?

What would killing the murderers solve? It doesn't seem to scare many murderers away from committing the crime, to my knowledge. I just don't see a correlation.

EDIT: I'm not very good at researching and I'm new to debating here, but I think this source provides quite a bit of information on how death penalty states tend to have more murders than non-death penalty states. https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterr...alty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates
 
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I completely disagree that you have more qualifications to talk about it since you have had a family member murdered... as unfortunate as that is. It doesn't make you more qualified in handling another person's life because one was stolen from your life.

It actually makes you less qualified, hence why victims don't get to be part of the jury.

Remarks like this definitely sounds like the kind of thing someone who has never had to face this would say. But as I said, when you go through it, your outlook on it often changes. Call it what you want, but I call things like capital punishment justice.

Not everyone that's a lost a loved one to a murderer has a hankering to give the perpetrator the death penalty. It varies widely, some victims even campaign for those that murdered their family to be removed from death row. It's not so much "if this thing happened to you, you'd feel differently" it has much more to do with your values as a person and how you approach abstract concepts like justice.

Personally, I think values are a two way steet. If you believe in free speech except for the people who say things you don't like, then you don't believe in it it all. Similarly, if you believe in compassion and mercy, but not for the people who wrong you, then you don't believe in them at all. They apply everywhere or they apply nowhere.
 
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bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
I often hear "Justice has been served/the family can be at peace" when someone is put to death. I personally never got that, because whatever happened still happened, the dead person isn't going to come back, and whatever happened to them can't be undone. It sounds weird but I have trouble processing how someone could go "Oh when my daughter died it was horrible until they killed the person who did it 15 years later"
 
I don't know if it would give me closure, but I'd certainly feel better. I do understand the appeal of the death penalty. For those of us with a bit of a vindictive streak, it must be nice knowing that the person who wronged you is going to experience the same kind of terror in the minutes leading up to the final curtain. I may be a bad person for it, but that gives me all sorts of warm fuzzies. As a general rule of thumb, you should resist your darker nature though. :p
 
Federal execution is not at all unusual in history.

It's just that liberal ideas have convinced all countries in the Western Hemisphere to prohibit capital punishment except the United States. In fact, the guillotine remained a common method of execution until just decades ago.
 

chess-z

campy vampire
Federal execution is not at all unusual in history.

It's just that liberal ideas have convinced all countries in the Western Hemisphere to prohibit capital punishment except the United States. In fact, the guillotine remained a common method of execution until just decades ago.

It's good that isn't a bad thing. Is anyone really upset that the guillotine has fallen out of use?
 
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