The Doctor Who Club v.4

the3rdH0kage · May 19, 2013

Why do you like Doctor Who?
I like it because there really isn't a limit on a certain episodes story. They aren't bound by reality in the sence that if they want something to be able to something specific they can just let them. I also like the fact that the special effects, they really don't look like most special effects today and it fits the show perfectly.
Who’s your favourite Doctor?
My favorite Doctor is probably a tie between the 10th and the 11 Doctor. I love David Tennant as an actor, and his stage preformances are always amazing, and as a Doctor he is funny, creepy, crazy, and overall one of the better doctors. I also love the 11th doctor becuase he has fleshed out the character of the Doctor so well since he has held the spot.
Desired character title?
If possible John Hurt. Would explain reasoning but I'm pretty sure that would contain spoilers about the newest episode so I'm just going to not put anything about him really (no that there is much info anyway).

anyway, just finished "The Name of the Doctor" and it is probably one of my favorite episdoes. I really can't wait for the new special and the new series to start.

fitzy909 · May 19, 2013

"What I did... I did without choice."

"In the name of peace, and sanity"

"But not in the name of THE DOCTOR".

i will bet this is about what ended the last great time war. i would guess this is the doctor that was in the time war and had to end it all, but what he did was not what the doctor should or would have done. do people agree?

cyber-leader/fitzy909

Becoming · May 19, 2013

November 23rd, hurry up! As it turns out that's right in the middle of exams. It's a weekend, so I don't have an exam that day, but I don't think I'll be able to study for physics the day after! I'll be too excited!

I liked the opening sequence with Clara. Considering all that I've seen in the trailers and certain spoilers, it wasn't so much a reveal as confirmation. Nevertheless, it was well done. I sorta wanna see all these incarnations of Clara, but considering there are probably billions of them, we won't get to meet all of them. And seen as they all end up dying (judging from what happened to Victorian Clara and Oswin) then there's not much potential for things like "oh, what happened to Time Lady Clara?" She died, obviously. I'm just hoping we might some some more incarnations of Clara in series eight. She didn't mention anything about future incarnations of the Doctor, but it's possible that she'll meet this Doctor in his near future...or so I hope.

The conference call all makes sense now - it was a psychic link! The interactions before things got going were neat, especially between River and Clara. I didn't quite understand how the murderer found out anything related to the Doctor, so I'm assuming that the Great Intelligence had something to do with it. It was probably a part of its plan all along.

The giant TARDIS was a cool touch, but it's a bit sad that the TARDIS will eventually die. Hopefully that is far, far in the future, along with the Doctor's actual death. It's pretty grand that he's buried here, in comparison to his "death" in The Impossible Astronaut, what with that Roman burial (or whatever they called it).

I felt that the Whispermen were a bit underwhelming. Sure, they look scary...but they didn't really do much. They were just commanded by the GI, were invulnerable, and could stop people's hearts...they've got nothing on the Silence or Angels, that's for sure. Although it was pretty cool that the GI could inhabit their bodies (or convert them, however).

This final battle of the Doctor's sounds interesting...It's nice that the Paternosters have so much faith in the Doctor, that they don't believe he's bloodstained (or soaked?). Even though they are kinda wrong...he is a good person, but he's also done his share of questionable things.

On to River: I take it this is her goodbye. I think it was done well, but that it shouldn't have happened here. I feel that it was just put here to get it over and done with, rather than because it was the logical thing to do...maybe I'm just bitter that we probably won't see River again, and that we won't get to see the Doctor take her to Darillium. I'm a bit upset that River didn't get to be her kickass self during this episode - and by that I mean she didn't get to kick some *** - but that was definitely the way for her to go. "There's only one way I'd accept. If you ever loved me, say it like you're going to come back." I really love that line, because it reminds me of the whole Eleven/River relationship. They kept running into each other and they kept coming back to each other. And of course River's last words would be, "Spoilers. Goodbye, sweetie."

Okay so I want to say how much sense this did not make in terms of the last couple of seasons. "Silence will fall when the question is asked." Obviously the question being answered is a bag thing, especially if the Silence go to such extremes (causing the TARDIS to explode which causes the universe to be destroyed) to stop it from happening. You'd think whatever happens at Trenzalore would be worse than that...but the Doctor's name only opened his tomb. This lead to the GI being able to enter the Doctor's timeline. I guess the Silence could have wanted the Doctor's previous victories to not be erased, but let's be real. They were out to get him and tried to have him killed. Things definitely don't add up...Also the silence really screwed up if they wanted silence to fall. Who was it that answered the question? River. Who was it that interfered and caused Melody Pond to become River Song? The Silence. Think about that. Think about how much sense this makes. I'm honestly thinking that the writers didn't quite think this through...

I'm not feeling like that cliffhanger was much of a cliffhanger. Maybe it's because I already read the rumors about John Hurt being the Doctor...but I'm not that pumped for it? Okay, there's a hidden incarnation (that isn't "the Doctor" despite the fact that they said "introducing John Hurt as the Doctor"), but I'm more interested as to how the Doctor and Clara survive. Will the 50th be the Doctor and Clara (and Ten and Rose and John Hurt's Doctor) going through the Doctor's past? That's all I can think of, really. I wonder where the writers are taking this newest Doctor though. Do we get to see what he did that was so bad? I presume it's something to do with the time war.

We know who Clara is, and it seems that she survives. I'm just thinking there might be some sort of continuity error with these different incarnations or something. Victorian Clara and Oswin didn't seem to recognize the Doctor, but other incarnations knew who he was and saved him. But maybe it's a subconscious thing? Victorian Clara and Oswin both managed to save him without really knowing who he was (unless they were very skilled liars). Oh, and we know where "run you clever boy, and remember" comes from.

I'm seriously wondering what's going to happen in series eight. The 50th will hopefully conclude this story line about the Doctor's timeline...but this is pretty epic. This is grand and large and important. How they're going to top it, I don't know, but I look forward to seeing it!

There's the original Clara Oswald, but Clara Oswin Oswald and Oswin Oswald and every other incarnation are derivatives of original Clara...but aren't exactly the same person. But are. But aren't. But are. But aren't. Are separate incarnations of Clara up for grabs or...because I'm happy with listing all incarnations in my character title:

Becoming/Clara Oswald/Oswin Oswald/Clara Oswin Oswald/

Time Lady Clara/approximately 1,000,000 other Claras

Spacial · May 19, 2013

I felt like there was too much being crammed into one episode. Well, they obviously only had one episode before the end of the series, but there was
-Clara's mystery being revealed (I like to call it the Clarafication)
-River leaving, which I feel in this episode was just added in to get rid of her
-A whole plot within the episode to make it seem like a finale
-And a new actor being introduced as the Doctor ("He's me, I didn't say he was the Doctor" INTRODUCING JOHN HURT AS THE DOCTOR *facepalm*)
I know that leaving the Doctor and Clara in the Doctor's time thingy gives the writers loads of possibilities for the series 8 intro, but it felt like there was a rush to get there.

elyvorg · May 19, 2013

Whoa, you guys. Just whoa. Last I knew we were just beginning Page 19 of this club; now we're suddenly on Page 20! What happened?

...well, I guess this episode happened. =D

Actually, having now read everyone's posts, I feel like the page went by so fast partly because one or two of you got a little bit one-linery in your excitement. This is just a friendly warning to be careful about that; one-liners are against the Clubs forum rules, after all. I mean, those of you who posted solely to express your excitement about the ending of the episode - yes, that was exciting, but what about the rest of the episode? Wasn't that also pretty awesome? I'd love to have seen your thoughts on that, too!

epicjirachifan: Eh. As your posts before you realised you had to fill in the form were some of the worryingly one-linery ones, I'd like a little bit more reassurance that you are capable of making decently meaty posts before I let you in. So could you possibly add a few more lines than that? Even if you've never done this kind of thing before, I'm sure there's a lot more you could think of to say if you put your mind to it. As the joining form says, don't just tell me that those episodes are some of your favourites; tell me why! What is it about those episodes that makes you like them so much?

Green Blockhead: Don't worry, you weren't kicked out; the club had to be restarted and I didn't carry over the members list. If you want to keep participating in the club, would you mind filling in the joining form again?

the3rdH0kage: Okay, that's just about enough now. Welcome! I... can't let you have that character, I'm afraid. For one thing, "John Hurt" is just the actor who plays him and not a name he has in-universe so therefore isn't something I'd put as a title; for the rest of the reasons why, see my reply to C.y.a.n at the bottom of this post, as he was trying to claim the same thing.

Apparently, there genuinely was no spoiler leakage all week, from any of the 210 people who accidentally recieved DVDs early. Huh. I got the impression that some people had been able to massively spoil themselves if they'd wanted to, but... seemingly not? In which case I very much respect those 210 people, not because I was necessarily ever in that much danger of being spoiled myself, but just for them being decent people who didn't want to ruin anyone else's enjoyment.

So... that episode was quite a thing. I was always pretty certain it'd end up being my favourite episode of this half-series, and I was right.

All of Steven Moffat's previous series finales have had massive, universe-imploding stakes. But they don't necessarily need those kind of stakes to be gripping and exciting. This story just had really big personal stakes for characters we've grown to care about - and that was all it needed to draw me in and get me just as invested as any finale before it.

Vastra, Jenny and Strax's presence in this episode, for example, was lovely not because they got to be particularly funny and/or badass like they tend to be in their other appearances (though Strax had his moments here), but just because by now I really care about them, didn't want to see them get hurt and was rooting for the Doctor to save them. Poor Vastra, especially, being led to believe that she'd lost Jenny twice! And I found it particularly touching why the Doctor was willing to go to such lengths to save them. They were incredibly patient and kind to him in that dark period before he met Victorian Clara, and although he wasn't really in any state to express it at the time, he really did appreciate everything they did for him. Awww.

River's part in this episode was also something I enjoyed, even though she didn't really contribute anything to the plot other than saying the Doctor's name at the crucial moment. Her presence here serves to give very strong indications of what the Doctor's been doing with her since we last saw her - or rather, what he hasn't. From how upset he was at hearing about her again and having her be sort-of-here-but-not, I can only assume that, for the Doctor, the Singing Towers of Darillium were a while ago now, and he never thought he'd see her again. And actually, I'm not surprised to learn this. I'd often thought that it might have been something he'd have done during those dark times before The Snowmen. The very last thing River's mother told her was to look after the Doctor - but where was she when the Doctor needed looking after? It was the Paternoster Gang who did that. River was nowhere to be seen, even though she'd have very much wanted to heed her mother's final wish. The Doctor must have essentially got rid of her; he'd always had the power to do that whenever he chose to, just by taking her to Darillium so that then he'd never see her again. Too much of a painful reminder of Amy and Rory? Didn't want her trying to help him because he wasn't capable of admitting he needed help? Despairingly feeling like everything he loves ends and so his time with River has to end too? There's various reasons he could have done so, but that's what he did. The one time in his life when he had no choice but to accept the ending of Amy and Rory would have been the only time he would ever have been able to accept the ending of River enough to willingly instigate it himself.

I say he "accepted" River's ending, but it's clear here that he still hadn't, not really - not enough to ever visit her in the Library to properly say goodbye to her, and certainly not enough to acknowledge her presence here as a mind-linked hologram, because that would mean accepting that she isn't really alive any more. It was a powerful moment when I realised he'd been perfectly able to see and hear her the entire time and had been deliberately ignoring her because it hurt too much. Oh, Doctor. Always trying to hide from his emotions, always incapable of accepting loss. In some ways he hasn't changed that much since The Angels Take Manhattan at all.

The Doctor's inability to accept losing people he cares about was also massively apparent when he tried to stop Clara from jumping into his timeline to save him. Even though moments earlier he just wanted the pain to stop, even though he was presumably going to fade into neverhadexistence sooner or later, even though all the worlds and people he'd ever saved would be lost - none of that meant anything to him next to the fact that he didn't want Clara to do this to herself. Have I ever mentioned that it's utterly adorable how much Clara means to him? He was even fully willing to risk having his secret exposed - he must have known that was the risk of entering his own timeline - just for a chance at getting her back.

I'm still piecing together some things about what Clara did and how it worked, such as why the Doctor only noticed a few of the Claras. The ones the Eleventh Doctor met make some kind of sense, as that's closest to when she met him for real, but the one that spoke to the First Doctor doesn't have the same excuse. I dunno if we'll ever find out why that one could speak to him but all the ones in the middle couldn't. It's also noticeable that the earlier Claras - earlier in the Doctor's timeline, that is - seemed to know that they were there to save him, whereas Oswin and Victorian Clara seemingly didn't, and just happened to save him anyway. I wonder if, after getting horribly lost and confused by blowing through millions of different lives, each individual Clara eventually began coping with what must be unimaginable identity trauma by convincing themselves that they truly were just that one version of Clara and blocking out everything else they should have known about why they were here. It seems likely as something she might have done, considering that we know Oswin then did a very similar thing within that fantasy, by convincing herself she was still a trapped human to block out the traumatic knowledge that she was really a Dalek. It's not such a stretch to then think she was also convincing herself she was just Oswin in order to block out the traumatic knowledge that she's one of a billion copies of herself lost within the Doctor's timestream.

Poor Clara; this whole thing must have unimaginably screwed her up. It's incredibly brave of her to be willing to put herself through this to save the Doctor, even though I doubt she could ever have imagined it would be this bad. Her "I don't know where I am" is reminiscent of her being trapped in the wifi, but this must have been so much worse than that, let alone not knowing who she is any more. But at least she has the Doctor, who, what with his huge attachment to her, knows better than anyone else exactly who she is and can help her find that again. Their relationship is going to become even more adorable and interesting from this point on, now that their lives have been so irreversibly intertwined. Clara blew through millions of lives with the Doctor as the only constant thing, and the Eleventh Doctor in particular as (almost) the only one who spoke to her, so he must mean even more to her now than he already did. Meanwhile the Doctor, knowing him, is going to feel so much guilt over what she put herself through for his sake, even though it was her choice and he tried to prevent it, and he'll just want her to get back to being as normal as possible. I wonder if she'll be able to eventually deal with it roughly how Rory did, by having a door in her head with all the crazy, impossible memories that she can keep shut unless she needs them. Hopefully she'll be all right in the end. (The Doctor really doesn't need another screwed-up companion on his conscience... but it's probably too late for that now.)

Plot-wise, the Great Intelligence: all I can say is wow, has it got incredibly twisted and vengeful since we last saw it. The Doctor has only defeated it, what, four times if we count the Classic episodes? yet it saw fit to subject him to eternal torment in revenge. I suppose it has to do with how the Intelligence is apparently somehow linked to all information in the universe, so it would have been able to look up all the things the Doctor's ever done or will do. Yes, he's been erasing himself, but kind of carelessly to anyone who's really looking - Mister Clever pointed out last episode that someone could easily reconstruct him from the gaps he left. So apparently the Great Intelligence has been busy doing that, but because it never liked the Doctor in the first place it'd seemingly only been looking at the worst parts of the Doctor's reputation, the parts where he's apparently a terrifying monster who slaughters millions. How very series 6 of you, GI.

Regarding the Doctor's name, from the scenes here I almost get the feeling that the Doctor himself is incapable of speaking it under normal circumstances. The reason the Great Intelligence wanted it out of him had nothing to do with his dark secret, so he shouldn't have hesitated so much to say it upon threat of his friends' deaths. Once River had unlocked the tomb, the Doctor willingly opened it up upon further implied threat to his friends, so it's not that going inside the tomb was something he was unwilling to do despite the threat, either. His friends are clearly important enough to him that he'll risk almost anything to save them - so I really think it makes more sense that he couldn't, rather than wouldn't, say his name. This does then beg the question of how on earth an earlier River managed to somehow get it out of a must've-been-earlier Doctor, but at the same time I imagine that might be something we just won't ever get an answer to.

I feel like we haven't seen the last of Trenzalore. It was said to be the Fall of the Eleventh, right? And given the battle that the future Doctor died in on Trenzalore, that seems fitting - assuming that it happened during his Eleventh incarnation. Plus, Clara went through his entire timeline, birth to death - and only saw eleven versions of him. (disregarding the John Hurt one; I'll talk about him later.) So that seems to indicate that, as the universe stands right now, the Doctor is destined to die for good in his eleventh incarnation. Well. Something's got to be done about that - that has to end up being rewritten somehow, because we know this show isn't going to end with the Eleventh Doctor. So I feel it's decently likely we'll see Trenzalore again, maybe even as soon as the 50th, and perhaps some of the lingering questions regarding it (like everything Becoming said about the Silence) will eventually be cleared up.

And, somewhat separate from the rest of the episode, some speculation and thoughts about the thing. You know, that one thing that everyone's going crazy over.

Why does everyone seem so convinced that John Hurt's character is from the Time War part of the Doctor's timeline? Yes, he did something terrible in the Time War, something that could be argued to go against the name of the Doctor - but we know what he did. He's told us, more than once. That cannot be his secret. Besides, what kind of 50th anniversary would it be if it only honoured the Doctor's story back up until the Time War, but no earlier? No, I'm sure this version of him is from earlier than that. The first eight incarnations of the Doctor must have also had a reason for calling themselves the Doctor and never revealing their real name. I'm imagining it's out of shame at something he did before he was "the Doctor", when his real name was what he was known as, and he changed his name in order to make that promise to himself to be a better person. Basically I think John Hurt is playing his first incarnation, before he started calling himself the Doctor, grew a little older and came to look like William Hartnell. (Hey, multiple actors play different-aged versions of the same character all the time; it's not implausible.)

It is a bit annoying that they introduced John Hurt as "the Doctor", given that our Doctor had just explained why this guy is not "the Doctor", even though they are the same person. It's going to be difficult to find something to refer to him as, since we still don't know his real name.

...Actually, after this? I don't think I'd particularly mind if we did find out his name after all, despite that I felt kind of the opposite way about this before. It seems clear to me that, although they are technically the same, the person who went by the Doctor's real name was not really the Doctor that we know and love, because he's changed so much. The Doctor has been trying ever since then to distance himself from that person that he once was and the name he once had, such that, if we were to find out the name, it'd almost feel like it was someone else's name we were learning. It wouldn't really feel like the Doctor's name, not in any meaningful sense of it being his. The Doctor's name is the Doctor, because that's what he chose it to be.

(if that makes any sense. This is really difficult to get words around.)

Also keep in mind that, even if this guy does turn out to be an entirely new incarnation, we can still feel comfortable in referring to the Doctors we know as "the First Doctor", "the Eleventh Doctor" or whatever. This new guy may be another incarnation of the same Time Lord, but he is not a Doctor. So even if the Eleventh Doctor turns out to actually be the man's twelfth incarnation, he will still be the Eleventh Doctor. Loophole!

As for the rest of what'll happen in the future... I honestly don't believe that the Doctor and Clara will be left there inside his timeline for six real-world months. Since Moffat took over, whenever there's been big out-of-universe gaps between episodes, there's also been decently big gaps in-universe for the characters. So I imagine the Doctor will somehow get himself and Clara out of there offscreen before we catch up with them in the special, and that maybe we'll find out how he did it in a flashback or something but certainly not by resuming from exactly where we left off. Perhaps not-the-Doctor will have been able to follow him out somehow, therefore kicking off the plot of the 50th?

aaaaagh why must November 23rd be over six months away. :< This story isn't finished yet!

C.y.a.n said:
Name change request to:

[spoil]The Doctor's Secret [/spoil]

Thank you!

Eh. "The Doctor's Secret" isn't actually the in-universe name of a character, as such. I assume you're trying to claim the guy played by John Hurt, which is something that it's kind of difficult to do right now because we don't actually know what to call him.

Also, please bear in mind that, if I were to figure out a name to let you claim him as (which I'm really kind of hesitant to do right now because we know so little about him), you would be claiming the Doctor. As in, all of him. This guy, though he doesn't call himself the Doctor (despite what the credits said), is still the same person as the Doctor as far as we know, so he would still count as the same claim. And the way claims work in this club is that you claim the entire character, and then if you like you can choose to have your title represent one particular aspect of that character if they happen to have more than one in-universe name/title you can choose from. So, for example, even though I've claimed all of Amy, I chose to represent that as "Amelia Pond", that childlike side to her that she never quite lost. Do you really, honestly want to claim the Doctor, all of him, and then represent that with what is presumably the worst possible side to him that has ever existed?

Becoming, about your character title... um... I'm just going to say that they're all the same for the purposes of this. Congratulations; you are now a soufflé recipe. ;]

~six months and four days! ...oh god this countdown is depressingly long.

-elyvorg/Amelia

C.y.a.n · May 19, 2013

Becoming said:
November 23rd, hurry up! As it turns out that's right in the middle of exams. It's a weekend, so I don't have an exam that day, but I don't think I'll be able to study for physics the day after! I'll be too excited!

I liked the opening sequence with Clara. Considering all that I've seen in the trailers and certain spoilers, it wasn't so much a reveal as confirmation. Nevertheless, it was well done. I sorta wanna see all these incarnations of Clara, but considering there are probably billions of them, we won't get to meet all of them. And seen as they all end up dying (judging from what happened to Victorian Clara and Oswin) then there's not much potential for things like "oh, what happened to Time Lady Clara?" She died, obviously. I'm just hoping we might some some more incarnations of Clara in series eight. She didn't mention anything about future incarnations of the Doctor, but it's possible that she'll meet this Doctor in his near future...or so I hope.

The conference call all makes sense now - it was a psychic link! The interactions before things got going were neat, especially between River and Clara. I didn't quite understand how the murderer found out anything related to the Doctor, so I'm assuming that the Great Intelligence had something to do with it. It was probably a part of its plan all along.

The giant TARDIS was a cool touch, but it's a bit sad that the TARDIS will eventually die. Hopefully that is far, far in the future, along with the Doctor's actual death. It's pretty grand that he's buried here, in comparison to his "death" in The Impossible Astronaut, what with that Roman burial (or whatever they called it).

I felt that the Whispermen were a bit underwhelming. Sure, they look scary...but they didn't really do much. They were just commanded by the GI, were invulnerable, and could stop people's hearts...they've got nothing on the Silence or Angels, that's for sure. Although it was pretty cool that the GI could inhabit their bodies (or convert them, however).

This final battle of the Doctor's sounds interesting...It's nice that the Paternosters have so much faith in the Doctor, that they don't believe he's bloodstained (or soaked?). Even though they are kinda wrong...he is a good person, but he's also done his share of questionable things.

On to River: I take it this is her goodbye. I think it was done well, but that it shouldn't have happened here. I feel that it was just put here to get it over and done with, rather than because it was the logical thing to do...maybe I'm just bitter that we probably won't see River again, and that we won't get to see the Doctor take her to Darillium. I'm a bit upset that River didn't get to be her kickass self during this episode - and by that I mean she didn't get to kick some *** - but that was definitely the way for her to go. "There's only one way I'd accept. If you ever loved me, say it like you're going to come back." I really love that line, because it reminds me of the whole Eleven/River relationship. They kept running into each other and they kept coming back to each other. And of course River's last words would be, "Spoilers. Goodbye, sweetie."

Okay so I want to say how much sense this did not make in terms of the last couple of seasons. "Silence will fall when the question is asked." Obviously the question being answered is a bag thing, especially if the Silence go to such extremes (causing the TARDIS to explode which causes the universe to be destroyed) to stop it from happening. You'd think whatever happens at Trenzalore would be worse than that...but the Doctor's name only opened his tomb. This lead to the GI being able to enter the Doctor's timeline. I guess the Silence could have wanted the Doctor's previous victories to not be erased, but let's be real. They were out to get him and tried to have him killed. Things definitely don't add up...Also the silence really screwed up if they wanted silence to fall. Who was it that answered the question? River. Who was it that interfered and caused Melody Pond to become River Song? The Silence. Think about that. Think about how much sense this makes. I'm honestly thinking that the writers didn't quite think this through...

I'm not feeling like that cliffhanger was much of a cliffhanger. Maybe it's because I already read the rumors about John Hurt being the Doctor...but I'm not that pumped for it? Okay, there's a hidden incarnation (that isn't "the Doctor" despite the fact that they said "introducing John Hurt as the Doctor"), but I'm more interested as to how the Doctor and Clara survive. Will the 50th be the Doctor and Clara (and Ten and Rose and John Hurt's Doctor) going through the Doctor's past? That's all I can think of, really. I wonder where the writers are taking this newest Doctor though. Do we get to see what he did that was so bad? I presume it's something to do with the time war.

We know who Clara is, and it seems that she survives. I'm just thinking there might be some sort of continuity error with these different incarnations or something. Victorian Clara and Oswin didn't seem to recognize the Doctor, but other incarnations knew who he was and saved him. But maybe it's a subconscious thing? Victorian Clara and Oswin both managed to save him without really knowing who he was (unless they were very skilled liars). Oh, and we know where "run you clever boy, and remember" comes from.

I'm seriously wondering what's going to happen in series eight. The 50th will hopefully conclude this story line about the Doctor's timeline...but this is pretty epic. This is grand and large and important. How they're going to top it, I don't know, but I look forward to seeing it!

There's the original Clara Oswald, but Clara Oswin Oswald and Oswin Oswald and every other incarnation are derivatives of original Clara...but aren't exactly the same person. But are. But aren't. But are. But aren't. Are separate incarnations of Clara up for grabs or...because I'm happy with listing all incarnations in my character title:

Becoming/Clara Oswald/Oswin Oswald/Clara Oswin Oswald/

Time Lady Clara/approximately 1,000,000 other Claras

elyvorg said:
Whoa, you guys. Just whoa. Last I knew we were just beginning Page 19 of this club; now we're suddenly on Page 20! What happened?

...well, I guess this episode happened. =D

Actually, having now read everyone's posts, I feel like the page went by so fast partly because one or two of you got a little bit one-linery in your excitement. This is just a friendly warning to be careful about that; one-liners are against the Clubs forum rules, after all. I mean, those of you who posted solely to express your excitement about the ending of the episode - yes, that was exciting, but what about the rest of the episode? Wasn't that also pretty awesome? I'd love to have seen your thoughts on that, too!

epicjirachifan: Eh. As your posts before you realised you had to fill in the form were some of the worryingly one-linery ones, I'd like a little bit more reassurance that you are capable of making decently meaty posts before I let you in. So could you possibly add a few more lines than that? Even if you've never done this kind of thing before, I'm sure there's a lot more you could think of to say if you put your mind to it. As the joining form says, don't just tell me that those episodes are some of your favourites; tell me why! What is it about those episodes that makes you like them so much?

Green Blockhead: Don't worry, you weren't kicked out; the club had to be restarted and I didn't carry over the members list. If you want to keep participating in the club, would you mind filling in the joining form again?

the3rdH0kage: Okay, that's just about enough now. Welcome! I... can't let you have that character, I'm afraid. For one thing, "John Hurt" is just the actor who plays him and not a name he has in-universe so therefore isn't something I'd put as a title; for the rest of the reasons why, see my reply to C.y.a.n at the bottom of this post, as he was trying to claim the same thing.

Apparently, there genuinely was no spoiler leakage all week, from any of the 210 people who accidentally recieved DVDs early. Huh. I got the impression that some people had been able to massively spoil themselves if they'd wanted to, but... seemingly not? In which case I very much respect those 210 people, not because I was necessarily ever in that much danger of being spoiled myself, but just for them being decent people who didn't want to ruin anyone else's enjoyment.

So... that episode was quite a thing. I was always pretty certain it'd end up being my favourite episode of this half-series, and I was right.

All of Steven Moffat's previous series finales have had massive, universe-imploding stakes. But they don't necessarily need those kind of stakes to be gripping and exciting. This story just had really big personal stakes for characters we've grown to care about - and that was all it needed to draw me in and get me just as invested as any finale before it.

Vastra, Jenny and Strax's presence in this episode, for example, was lovely not because they got to be particularly funny and/or badass like they tend to be in their other appearances (though Strax had his moments here), but just because by now I really care about them, didn't want to see them get hurt and was rooting for the Doctor to save them. Poor Vastra, especially, being led to believe that she'd lost Jenny twice! And I found it particularly touching why the Doctor was willing to go to such lengths to save them. They were incredibly patient and kind to him in that dark period before he met Victorian Clara, and although he wasn't really in any state to express it at the time, he really did appreciate everything they did for him. Awww.

River's part in this episode was also something I enjoyed, even though she didn't really contribute anything to the plot other than saying the Doctor's name at the crucial moment. Her presence here serves to give very strong indications of what the Doctor's been doing with her since we last saw her - or rather, what he hasn't. From how upset he was at hearing about her again and having her be sort-of-here-but-not, I can only assume that, for the Doctor, the Singing Towers of Darillium were a while ago now, and he never thought he'd see her again. And actually, I'm not surprised to learn this. I'd often thought that it might have been something he'd have done during those dark times before The Snowmen. The very last thing River's mother told her was to look after the Doctor - but where was she when the Doctor needed looking after? It was the Paternoster Gang who did that. River was nowhere to be seen, even though she'd have very much wanted to heed her mother's final wish. The Doctor must have essentially got rid of her; he'd always had the power to do that whenever he chose to, just by taking her to Darillium so that then he'd never see her again. Too much of a painful reminder of Amy and Rory? Didn't want her trying to help him because he wasn't capable of admitting he needed help? Despairingly feeling like everything he loves ends and so his time with River has to end too? There's various reasons he could have done so, but that's what he did. The one time in his life when he had no choice but to accept the ending of Amy and Rory would have been the only time he would ever have been able to accept the ending of River enough to willingly instigate it himself.

I say he "accepted" River's ending, but it's clear here that he still hadn't, not really - not enough to ever visit her in the Library to properly say goodbye to her, and certainly not enough to acknowledge her presence here as a mind-linked hologram, because that would mean accepting that she isn't really alive any more. It was a powerful moment when I realised he'd been perfectly able to see and hear her the entire time and had been deliberately ignoring her because it hurt too much. Oh, Doctor. Always trying to hide from his emotions, always incapable of accepting loss. In some ways he hasn't changed that much since The Angels Take Manhattan at all.

The Doctor's inability to accept losing people he cares about was also massively apparent when he tried to stop Clara from jumping into his timeline to save him. Even though moments earlier he just wanted the pain to stop, even though he was presumably going to fade into neverhadexistence sooner or later, even though all the worlds and people he'd ever saved would be lost - none of that meant anything to him next to the fact that he didn't want Clara to do this to herself. Have I ever mentioned that it's utterly adorable how much Clara means to him? He was even fully willing to risk having his secret exposed - he must have known that was the risk of entering his own timeline - just for a chance at getting her back.

I'm still piecing together some things about what Clara did and how it worked, such as why the Doctor only noticed a few of the Claras. The ones the Eleventh Doctor met make some kind of sense, as that's closest to when she met him for real, but the one that spoke to the First Doctor doesn't have the same excuse. I dunno if we'll ever find out why that one could speak to him but all the ones in the middle couldn't. It's also noticeable that the earlier Claras - earlier in the Doctor's timeline, that is - seemed to know that they were there to save him, whereas Oswin and Victorian Clara seemingly didn't, and just happened to save him anyway. I wonder if, after getting horribly lost and confused by blowing through millions of different lives, each individual Clara eventually began coping with what must be unimaginable identity trauma by convincing themselves that they truly were just that one version of Clara and blocking out everything else they should have known about why they were here. It seems likely as something she might have done, considering that we know Oswin then did a very similar thing within that fantasy, by convincing herself she was still a trapped human to block out the traumatic knowledge that she was really a Dalek. It's not such a stretch to then think she was also convincing herself she was just Oswin in order to block out the traumatic knowledge that she's one of a billion copies of herself lost within the Doctor's timestream.

Poor Clara; this whole thing must have unimaginably screwed her up. It's incredibly brave of her to be willing to put herself through this to save the Doctor, even though I doubt she could ever have imagined it would be this bad. Her "I don't know where I am" is reminiscent of her being trapped in the wifi, but this must have been so much worse than that, let alone not knowing who she is any more. But at least she has the Doctor, who, what with his huge attachment to her, knows better than anyone else exactly who she is and can help her find that again. Their relationship is going to become even more adorable and interesting from this point on, now that their lives have been so irreversibly intertwined. Clara blew through millions of lives with the Doctor as the only constant thing, and the Eleventh Doctor in particular as (almost) the only one who spoke to her, so he must mean even more to her now than he already did. Meanwhile the Doctor, knowing him, is going to feel so much guilt over what she put herself through for his sake, even though it was her choice and he tried to prevent it, and he'll just want her to get back to being as normal as possible. I wonder if she'll be able to eventually deal with it roughly how Rory did, by having a door in her head with all the crazy, impossible memories that she can keep shut unless she needs them. Hopefully she'll be all right in the end. (The Doctor really doesn't need another screwed-up companion on his conscience... but it's probably too late for that now.)

Plot-wise, the Great Intelligence: all I can say is wow, has it got incredibly twisted and vengeful since we last saw it. The Doctor has only defeated it, what, four times if we count the Classic episodes? yet it saw fit to subject him to eternal torment in revenge. I suppose it has to do with how the Intelligence is apparently somehow linked to all information in the universe, so it would have been able to look up all the things the Doctor's ever done or will do. Yes, he's been erasing himself, but kind of carelessly to anyone who's really looking - Mister Clever pointed out last episode that someone could easily reconstruct him from the gaps he left. So apparently the Great Intelligence has been busy doing that, but because it never liked the Doctor in the first place it'd seemingly only been looking at the worst parts of the Doctor's reputation, the parts where he's apparently a terrifying monster who slaughters millions. How very series 6 of you, GI.

Regarding the Doctor's name, from the scenes here I almost get the feeling that the Doctor himself is incapable of speaking it under normal circumstances. The reason the Great Intelligence wanted it out of him had nothing to do with his dark secret, so he shouldn't have hesitated so much to say it upon threat of his friends' deaths. Once River had unlocked the tomb, the Doctor willingly opened it up upon further implied threat to his friends, so it's not that going inside the tomb was something he was unwilling to do despite the threat, either. His friends are clearly important enough to him that he'll risk almost anything to save them - so I really think it makes more sense that he couldn't, rather than wouldn't, say his name. This does then beg the question of how on earth an earlier River managed to somehow get it out of a must've-been-earlier Doctor, but at the same time I imagine that might be something we just won't ever get an answer to.

I feel like we haven't seen the last of Trenzalore. It was said to be the Fall of the Eleventh, right? And given the battle that the future Doctor died in on Trenzalore, that seems fitting - assuming that it happened during his Eleventh incarnation. Plus, Clara went through his entire timeline, birth to death - and only saw eleven versions of him. (disregarding the John Hurt one; I'll talk about him later.) So that seems to indicate that, as the universe stands right now, the Doctor is destined to die for good in his eleventh incarnation. Well. Something's got to be done about that - that has to end up being rewritten somehow, because we know this show isn't going to end with the Eleventh Doctor. So I feel it's decently likely we'll see Trenzalore again, maybe even as soon as the 50th, and perhaps some of the lingering questions regarding it (like everything Becoming said about the Silence) will eventually be cleared up.

And, somewhat separate from the rest of the episode, some speculation and thoughts about the thing. You know, that one thing that everyone's going crazy over.

Why does everyone seem so convinced that John Hurt's character is from the Time War part of the Doctor's timeline? Yes, he did something terrible in the Time War, something that could be argued to go against the name of the Doctor - but we know what he did. He's told us, more than once. That cannot be his secret. Besides, what kind of 50th anniversary would it be if it only honoured the Doctor's story back up until the Time War, but no earlier? No, I'm sure this version of him is from earlier than that. The first eight incarnations of the Doctor must have also had a reason for calling themselves the Doctor and never revealing their real name. I'm imagining it's out of shame at something he did before he was "the Doctor", when his real name was what he was known as, and he changed his name in order to make that promise to himself to be a better person. Basically I think John Hurt is playing his first incarnation, before he started calling himself the Doctor, grew a little older and came to look like William Hartnell. (Hey, multiple actors play different-aged versions of the same character all the time; it's not implausible.)

It is a bit annoying that they introduced John Hurt as "the Doctor", given that our Doctor had just explained why this guy is not "the Doctor", even though they are the same person. It's going to be difficult to find something to refer to him as, since we still don't know his real name.

...Actually, after this? I don't think I'd particularly mind if we did find out his name after all, despite that I felt kind of the opposite way about this before. It seems clear to me that, although they are technically the same, the person who went by the Doctor's real name was not really the Doctor that we know and love, because he's changed so much. The Doctor has been trying ever since then to distance himself from that person that he once was and the name he once had, such that, if we were to find out the name, it'd almost feel like it was someone else's name we were learning. It wouldn't really feel like the Doctor's name, not in any meaningful sense of it being his. The Doctor's name is the Doctor, because that's what he chose it to be.

(if that makes any sense. This is really difficult to get words around.)

Also keep in mind that, even if this guy does turn out to be an entirely new incarnation, we can still feel comfortable in referring to the Doctors we know as "the First Doctor", "the Eleventh Doctor" or whatever. This new guy may be another incarnation of the same Time Lord, but he is not a Doctor. So even if the Eleventh Doctor turns out to actually be the man's twelfth incarnation, he will still be the Eleventh Doctor. Loophole!

As for the rest of what'll happen in the future... I honestly don't believe that the Doctor and Clara will be left there inside his timeline for six real-world months. Since Moffat took over, whenever there's been big out-of-universe gaps between episodes, there's also been decently big gaps in-universe for the characters. So I imagine the Doctor will somehow get himself and Clara out of there offscreen before we catch up with them in the special, and that maybe we'll find out how he did it in a flashback or something but certainly not by resuming from exactly where we left off. Perhaps not-the-Doctor will have been able to follow him out somehow, therefore kicking off the plot of the 50th?

aaaaagh why must November 23rd be over six months away. :< This story isn't finished yet!

Eh. "The Doctor's Secret" isn't actually the in-universe name of a character, as such. I assume you're trying to claim the guy played by John Hurt, which is something that it's kind of difficult to do right now because we don't actually know what to call him.

Also, please bear in mind that, if I were to figure out a name to let you claim him as (which I'm really kind of hesitant to do right now because we know so little about him), you would be claiming the Doctor. As in, all of him. This guy, though he doesn't call himself the Doctor (despite what the credits said), is still the same person as the Doctor as far as we know, so he would still count as the same claim. And the way claims work in this club is that you claim the entire character, and then if you like you can choose to have your title represent one particular aspect of that character if they happen to have more than one in-universe name/title you can choose from. So, for example, even though I've claimed all of Amy, I chose to represent that as "Amelia Pond", that childlike side to her that she never quite lost. Do you really, honestly want to claim the Doctor, all of him, and then represent that with what is presumably the worst possible side to him that has ever existed?

Becoming, about your character title... um... I'm just going to say that they're all the same for the purposes of this. Congratulations; you are now a soufflé recipe. ;]

~six months and four days! ...oh god this countdown is depressingly long.

-elyvorg/Amelia

Ok, bit lost, thought you weren't aloud be the Doctor since nobody has the title, If. It is free, I'll just love be the Doctor

VampirateMace · May 20, 2013

Tresnzlore = Tomb… okay, I can deal with that. We all know time travelers should never view their own graves.

So then, I assume, this is The Doctor before The 1st Doctor? That would make Doctor 11 actually Doctor 12... The horror. Or, I suppose he’s the implied Doctor between the old series and the Doctor Who movie?
-Looks like Poetry already came up with this.

This episode kind of makes me wish the Doctor had downloaded River into the TARDIS rather than the Library. Imagine, voice interface, Clara, and River all nagging at him at once.

It’s a TV series, any digital insertion flaws are forgivable…

Green Blockhead · May 20, 2013

Why do you like Doctor Who?
I was introduced to the series as a kid and have continued to love it to today. The 50th Anniversary is going to be big, emotional and epic and I can't wait for it.
Who's your favourite Doctor?
Ten. Ten will forever be my favorite Doctor. Matt is brilliant too, but for me, Tennant is THE Doctor.
Desired character title?
The Cyber King

I've been in this club before, I wasn't aware of the "reset".

(Just a question, I know someone will take the character as soon as I say this, but how come no one has claimed The Doctor himself? xD)

Crasher · May 22, 2013

I apologise for my hiatus.

I found the opening sequence with Clara's insertion into the time stream to be excellent, despite the sometimes clunky special effects. That excerpt from 'This is Gallifrey' during the establishing shot of the Citadel was especially pleasing. I like the implication that, as both the Second and Eighth Doctors ran past her together, there have been several multi-Doctor adventures that haven't been chronicled.

I don't have too much to say about the episode, other than it was excellent. My only criticism, I suppose, is the death of Jenny. Her death was supposed to be meaningful, and might have made an emotional impact on some (I'm not a massive fan of hers), and it would have been interesting to see the impact on Vastra, but no, Strax has the deus ex machina device to bring her back. It was interesting, incidentally, that Vastra remained good when Strax regressed to his normal state.

Strax! As ever, he was perfect at lightening the mood whenever needed. I enjoy him whenever he appears, and he did not disappoint. I especially enjoyed the line "Do not divulge our military secrets!".

I do find it interesting that the Doctor's tomb had the current desktop theme. Perhaps it had sensed which theme he was on and changed to prevent spoilers, because surely this can't be the last desktop theme. Was it stated to be dead, or dying? Because if it had been stated to be dead, it has some interesting implications.

I thought River's inclusion in the episode to be well judged. The good-bye was wonderful. I do look forward to finding out why her connection to Clara exists, and I wonder whether Clara now knows the Doctor's name after River said.

I suppose, presuming that the Time War theory for John Hurt's incarnation is correct, that the secret isn't so much that he finished the war/committed atrocities in it but that the Doctor refuses to acknowledge him as a Doctor, to the point of hiding him from Mr Clever by including the knowledge of him in the 2.whatever% of his brain that he chose to keep from him. This is especially important when it's realised that the Doctor needed to keep as much of his creativity as possible, because he knew that in sheer computational power he would never be able to beat Mr Clever.

I read an interesting theory. It's regarding the John Hurt Doctor.

It basically goes that in 'Nightmare in Silver' Porridge looks at a once distant galaxy and says to Clara about how it used to house a trillion people, and how he feels sorry for the one who pressed the button.
Destroying all the Daleks (and Time Lords, as they had degenerated to such a feral point) can be justified, because by doing that he literally saved every person in every universe, but with the Cyberman not necessarily. They can be beaten, fairly easily sometimes, so blowing up the galaxy was not required, making the killing of all those people even worse. I don't think this theory is true, but it's interesting nonetheless.

If anyone hasn't seen this, it's an interview with Matt Smith and David Tennant on the 50th. This was released as a 'reward' for the lack of spoilers for the end of the episode.

EDIT: Here's a helpful time-line of River and the Doctor.

Aegon · May 24, 2013

C.y.a.n., keep the "no one-liners" rule in mind when posting in the Clubs section. I'm glad you're contributing, and it can be hard to include more when you're intending to reply only to a previous point, but it's a thing, so.

Thanks for wanting to join again, Green Blockhead, but unfortunately, you'll need to post more with your joining form. Since you've been a member before, I'm sure you can manage it.

I just watched the BBC Three repeat, so while the episode is fresh in my mind...

That was rather exciting, funny and momentous.

I need to mention again how much I love Vastra, Jenny and Strax. I enjoy how strong a character Vastra is and, as I noted before, I'm really liking how Neve McIntosh is evolving the character; she balances the human and reptile aspects magnificently. I'm glad to report that I found Strax hilarious once again. Thankfully, he is competent in some areas (he is still a Sontaran, after all), while his shortcomings (ohohoho) are believable in that they're largely consistent. He doesn't disrupt the flow of the story, which could happen easily. Strax's line "Well neither did I" when Clara remarks that she never realised River was a woman was excellent. Oh, poor Jenny. That scene was superbly creepy. It really wasn't very nice. I'd like to see more of the Whisper Men as a result. We weren't given much details regarding them. They were just there. I feel like they have so much more to offer.

River! I liked her role in these events. She came across as far more mature and reserved (as reserved as River can get) than we've been used to, which I imagine is due to this taking place so late in her timeline. It was strange having her appear post-Library, since I had always seen that as being her final adventure. Upon my first viewing, I thought that her exclamation of "Spoilers!" when she brought up her link to Clara was hinting at a future plot-line, but now, I wonder if she was just hinting at Clara still being alive. I'm not sure.

As for Clara, I was so happy to see that the development she received in Journey was restored. Sure, the reveal of how she's possible was fairly predictable. Stupid BBC trailers! What did they expect us to think when we saw someone walking through strands of energy in the TARDIS? I guess it would have been obvious as soon as it appeared in the episode, anyway. Seeing her setting the Doctor off on his travels through time and space was strangely satisfying. The references to past eras were out-and-out cool. It's just what's needed for the finale before the fiftieth. I'll be pausing on each of the faces that appear when the box-set is released. (Just when will the complete Series 7 one be released? It better include both TDTWTW and The Snowmen.)

Thinking back on the past incarnations of Clara is far sadder than before now, knowing that they exist due to the sacrifice the Clara we met over the course of this series made. Then there's the added weight of Clara being aware that these many, many, many, many versions of her would die. It kind of cements the two parts of Series 7 together, despite how different they are.

I was expecting a David Tennant appearance for the final moments, but I'm content with what we got. It's a shame the tabloids ruined it to a degree. Imagine how shocking it would have been, had the concept not been brought up. No more fiftieth special spoilers, please. He could definitely be the incarnation that fought during the Time War. I think that's most likely, but I'm certainly not ruling out anything else. He could even be a future regeneration (or the Valeyard, perhaps?).

While the following part of the post is TNotD-related, I think it works better separately.

So, there they are. But we didn't see the Fall of the Eleventh (unless you want to count his collapse in the TARDIS). I guess the Doctor will be returning, and I don't think it will be too far away. My theory is that this is where the Doctor will regenerate and that it won't be his actual resting place. It's also worth taking into account the appearance of the TARDIS-tomb. It appeared in its current state. Hmm. If it it were only from the Eleventh Doctor's future, then how would future incarnations travel in time and space with the TARDIS dying at Trenzalore? That doesn't make much sense. Aaaargh. Where is Steven Moffat going with this?

-The Eleventh/Rory Williams

Becoming · Jun 2, 2013

I don't really know if this counts as a spoiler or not but I'll be on the safe side...

Matt Smith is leaving the show. He's going to be in the 50th, and he's going to be in the Christmas special, but that's it. I think it's safe to assume that he'll regenerate in the Christmas special, probably at the end. The same as what's happened with the previous two Doctors, and the start of series 8 will have our introduction to this new Doctor. Whenever that will be though, it could be in the second half of 2014 like series 7A...

I'm definitely sad about Matt leaving, possibly because this is the first time that I've found out that the Doctor was going to be leaving. With Nine and Ten I already knew about the Doctor ahead of them, and while it's inevitable that Matt would leave...I've just grown so attached to Eleven! First Amy and Rory, then River in the last episode, and now Matt at Christmas! Plus I always thought of Clara as Eleven's companion (and I love the chemistry between Matt and Jenna). It'll be weird to see her with Twelve. The thing is that I was expecting Matt to be in series 8 and I was looking forward to adventures of Eleven and Clara without the whole impossible girl mystery. Clara could just be Clara and they'd have adventures and there wouldn't be all the mystery...but nope, not anymore.

As for Twelve...I sorta want the actor's identity to be kept a secret until Christmas so that it's a secret. Plus that would stop the fandom from deciding they hate [insert actor here] for replacing Matt (trust me, there's got to be some people like that). As for who could play this Doctor...I don't have anyone specific in mind, but I'm sorta hoping for a female Doctor. That'd be a nice change. I hope whoever it is isn't really well known though. The Doctor is such an iconic role and while I'm sure there are many established actors/actresses that would love to play him, it'd be nice to let a relatively unknown actor to get the role because it could do wonders for their career, you know? The one person I don't want as the Doctor is Benedict Cumberbatch. Like I've seen (on tumblr of course) some people suggesting that but no. He's already played one iconic British character and his career is doing pretty well at the moment. Plus I'd feel that he only got the role because Moffat gave it to him. I'm kinda passionate about Twelve being played by an unknown actor because it's really the thing that could launch one's career.

As for what Twelve could be like, who knows? I was expecting Matt and Jenna to both be in series 8, and then to have both leave and 12 start with a new companion (like what happened with Eleven). But now Clara crosses over to Twelve's run...hmm...as for how they're going to work Twelve into the story (aka the regeneration) I think they might be going back to Trenzalore. How that's going to fit into the Christmas special (I don't really see how the dark and dank Trenzalore is very Christmasy) I don't know but I'm interested in what's going to happen!

Becoming/Clara (Oswin) Oswald

Poetry · Jun 2, 2013

Well, after the muddling and confusing bundle of excitement that was The Name of the Doctor, we have another piece of news that at least means that the 50th and the Christmas specials will really be something special.

(Even if it is just news, I'm going to put it in a spoiler tag anyway).

Goddamn it, ninja'd.

That's right, after three years, three companions, three explosive series and one very irritating River Song, Matt Smith will be leaving Doctor Who at the end of the year, with the Eleventh (Twelfth?) Doctor regenerating at the end of this year's Christmas special.

Here's his statement regarding his departure in full:

Doctor Who has been the most brilliant experience for me as an actor and a bloke, and that largely is down to the cast, crew and fans of the show.

"I'm incredibly grateful to all the cast and crew who work tirelessly every day to realise all the elements of the show and deliver Doctor Who to the audience. Many of them have become good friends and I'm incredibly proud of what we have achieved over the last four years.

"Having Steven Moffat as show runner write such varied, funny, mind bending and brilliant scripts has been one of the greatest and most rewarding challenges of my career. It's been a privilege and a treat to work with Steven - he's a good friend and will continue to shape a brilliant world for the Doctor.

The fans of Doctor Who around the world are unlike any other; they dress up, shout louder, know more about the history of the show (and speculate more about the future of the show) in a way that I've never seen before.

"Your dedication is truly remarkable. Thank you so very much for supporting my incarnation of the Time Lord, number 11, who I might add is not done yet - I'm back for the 50th anniversary and the Christmas special.

"It's been an honour to play this part, to follow the legacy of brilliant actors, and helm the Tardis for a spell with 'the ginger, the nose and the impossible one'. But when ya gotta go, ya gotta go and Trenzalore calls. Thank you guys. Matt.

I can't say I'm terribly happy with this news. I was just beginning to like Smith's Doctor after a solid two and a half years of disliking him, and now it turns out he's going to be leaving after a couple of specials. I think I can say that he will be missed; perhaps not as much as Tennant after his departure, but missed nonetheless.

But anyway. Next Doctor. I think we're long overdue a female Doctor, that's all I'm saying xD

VampirateMace · Jun 2, 2013

Poetry said:
But anyway. Next Doctor. I think we're long overdue a female Doctor, that's all I'm saying xD

Yep, overdue... if it's going to happen at all. They considered doing it back in the orginal series, then went with the actor.

Aegon · Jun 2, 2013

Considering it's everywhere and it'd be silly to have to keep every mention of it in spoilers until a week after the Christmas Special, I think it's all right to speak openly about it.

No, Matt, don't leave! When I heard the news of an impending announcement yesterday evening, I knew it'd be Matt's departure. There had been signs of it for a while now and we were aware it was on the horizon, but I didn't think it'd be so soon. I was so hoping for at least one more series with Matt as the Doctor. It's difficult to believe that only two episodes remain until the Eleventh Doctor's era ends. The series we just watched was Matt's final series. That's really strange. I'm incredibly disappointed, because he's been the most magnificent Doctor over the past three-and-a-half years and I feel he could give so much more. At least we were lucky enough to have him as the Doctor, and he wanted to move on, so that's OK. I'm also somewhat glad that Eleven's time will be remembered with the Ponds in mind, since they played such a significant role in his life. I found myself thinking a while back that it couldn't have been easy for Matt to continue without Karen and Arthur. I'm not saying that's why he left, but I wouldn't be surprised if it contributed in some way.

It's fortunate that Jenna is definitely staying. It's sad that we only got eleven episodes of her and Matt on-screen together (and but ten with her as Clara Oswald), but seeing her with another Doctor will be fun. Why do I already foresee her leaving after Series 8? :/

On a more positive note, we'll have a new Doctor by the end of the year to look forward to! I'm slightly ambivalent towards this time of change. The uncertainty is a fresh feeling, but having to endure the tabloid reports regarding bookies' odds, David Tennant returning to the role, female Doctors (Catherine Tate, really?) and big-name stars is not very pleasing. I wouldn't mind a female Doctor (though I'd honestly prefer a male for the television series), but I hate how the notion is dragged up as if everyone's going to be disappointed when there isn't a woman playing the Doctor.

If John Hurt turns out to be a proper incarnation of the Doctor that used up a regeneration, then we're looking at what's possibly the Doctor's final regeneration. Somehow, I feel Steven Moffat's heading towards solving the conundrum of the thirteen-lives rule. I can see him wanting to tackle it, then giving up the executive producer role. This'll be interesting. I'm intrigued as to what Moffat has in mind for another incarnation of the Doctor. Will he (oh, fine—or she) be similar to Eleven, or the polar opposite? Exciting times.

-The Eleventh/Rory Williams

fitzy909 · Jun 2, 2013

i like matt smith and i don't want to see him go. He has definitely filled the role well. he can be funny, sinister and awesome all at the same time. he made bow ties and fezes cool. i'm glad we got to see him in all his glory and he had a good run with the ponds. i guess everyone needs a change of pace eventually, it's too bad he wants to leave now. I'm a little disappointed that the most recent episodes aren't at the highest standard they've ever been, but we can expect great things from the 50th special and the christmas special. i just hope that his regeneration story is fitting if someone as awesome as him. (i'm hoping for daleks)

as for the new doctor, i hope it is someone fitting. it won't be a returning role and probably not someone who has already been on the show. i wouldn't mind a woman, so long as they are as good as matt. i really just want someone who brings something fresh and is still keeping to the old ideas about how the doctor should be. They will need to be good as they have some big shoes (and even bigger fezes) to fill.

also, the doctor can regenerate 13 times, correct? doesn't that mean we get 14 doctors, as the first one was born not regenerated? just wondering...

fitzy909/Cyber-Leader

Aegon · Jun 2, 2013

fitzy909 said:
also, the doctor can regenerate 13 times, correct? doesn't that mean we get 14 doctors, as the first one was born not regenerated? just wondering...

According to episodes in the Classic Series, Time Lords can regenerate twelves times, which equates to thirteen incarnations. This limitation has yet to be brought up in the New Series, though there was the Doctor's comment about having five-hundred-and-seven regenerations in Death of the Doctor, which was (probably) made in jest. Whether this is a biological limit or something implemented by the Time Lords—perhaps even both—is unclear.

-The Eleventh/Rory Williams

Crasher · Jun 3, 2013

I somewhat doubt a few lines from the '70s are going to bring about the cancellation of a highly successful programme, especially one so popular in the USA. Considering that the Master was granted additional regenerations in the Classic Series, I believe that the limit was controlled by the Time Lords. Moffat will easily think of a way of circumventing the rule.

I'm quite excited, really, which is weird because I like Eleven more or less the same amount as I did Ten, but I was sad to see Ten leave. I am somewhat sad that Matt is leaving, but honestly the excitement of a new Doctor overpowers that. I also enjoy that Clara is going to be a transitional companion; it's been a while since we've had one of those.

It's interesting that a few weeks ago Matt claimed that he was going to finish the Christmas Special and then begin Series 8. I wonder what's going on there.

It's also interesting that they announced this shortly after (Name of the Doctor spoiler)

introducing John Hurt as 'The Doctor'. I wonder if that's a deliberate media frenzy thing.

Incidentally, I've been re-watching some 9th Doctor episodes. I remembered Boom Town as a fairly mediocre episode, but I really enjoyed it and recommend a re-watch of it. There's some nice stuff in there about the morality of execution and sheds some light on the Doctor's role in the Time War, and the episode is very, very funny. I really like the group dynamic and Mickey is an excellent prism through which to view Rose's development since 'Rose' (which is also an excellent episode). Some lines between the Doctor and Jack are particularly good. I had forgotten how good Jack was.

Now comes the endless onslaught of speculation on who the next Doctor will be, and whether they'll be a black ginger woman. I'd like to see an older Doctor this time; my current placeholder for Twelve in my head is Hugh Laurie, whom I'd love to see in the role.

Spacial · Jun 4, 2013

I'm sad to see Matt go, but in my mind he really left with Karen and Arthur. Also, based on the fact that the BBC stopped making Doctor Who Confidential (which I enjoyed watching after an episode) I doubt Matt and Jenna got on well together, and they definitely didn't have that special thing that Smillan has. Moments like Charlie the beaver and whhen Matt wrote on Karen's chair (you'll probably be able to find them on Youtube) which made Matt enjoy filming musn't happen with Jenna. So I guess Matt left because he didn't find filming as fun as it was with Karen and Arthur, which I accept even though he's my favourite Doctor and the first one I've payed attention to (I was aware of the show when Tennant starred, but I chose not to watch it) because I don't enjoy watching him with Clara (who is too perfect at everything apart from making souffles to be taken seriously) as she brings out his more serious side, instead of the bouncy, fun and magnificently mad Eleventh Doctor we see with Amy. I would've loved it if Karen hadn't decided to leave Doctor Who to pursue a modelling career because it all happened so quickly - her departure was just written in, and it delayed the rest of the series while auditions for the next companion were taking place. I have a feeling that if Karen hadn't left so soon, Matt wouldn't've either. But I'll always remember Matt's Doctor's time with Amy, not Clara.

Ponymon / The TARDIS

Green Blockhead · Jun 6, 2013

Third time's the charm.

Why do you like Doctor Who?
When I was 7 or 8, series three was about to start and I was seeing a lot of trailers for the first episode of that series. That's when my dad sort of introduced me to Doctor Who. I instantly grew fond of David Tennant, and I was constantly on the Doctor Who website, playing games, Comic Maker and all sorts. I collected the 5" figure scale, I have an on-going subscription to the Doctor Who Adventures magazine, and to this day I have been a Whovian for nearly all of my childhood.

As for why I like Doctor Who... well, I live in Britain and it's one of the biggest TV shows that the country has to offer. It's pretty much the only TV series I actually watch. And who doesn't like Sci-Fi? Time, space, monsters, aliens, the fun parts of TV and film. I also like the whole "different actor" scenario. Also the iconic aliens and monsters, such as the Daleks and Cybermen. It also manages to be a somewhat scary TV show with those aliens, no wonder the "behind the sofa" joke has recurred throughout the show's existence. As a guy who likes computers and is fascinated by science, physics and nerdy, geeky things, it's just perfect.
Who's your favourite Doctor?
Ten. Ten will forever be my favorite Doctor. When he regenerated and Matt came into the scene, I shouted NOOO for the duration of his regeneration, because I literally loved him as the Doctor. To me, Tennant is THE Doctor. Though now I really like Matt too, and I like Jon Pertwee after my parents and stuff, watching the original Doctor Who in the 60's or 70's.
Desired character title?
The Cyber King

Hopefully I did better this time.

elyvorg · Jun 7, 2013

Hi guys! Sorry I haven't been posting for the past few weeks; I've been all wrapped up in exams. Now that they're over, though, it's time I made up for my lack of posting with a ridiculously long post full of everything I wanted to mention over the last few weeks. Some of this will be stuff I typed up a couple of weeks ago but didn't get around to posting, while the rest will be my more recent thoughts, mostly in reaction to... you know. The news.

Also, first:
The Green Blockhead: Third time is indeed the charm; that's plenty enough now. Welcome back!

...oh, yeah, and about character titles. Well. C.y.a.n., you can be the Doctor if you really want to, since there's no rule against claiming him and no-one else has yet. I imagine the reason that no-one else has claimed him is because no-one really feels worthy of having him as a character title - so I'd just like to ask before I add your claim to the list: are you sure you want to be the Doctor?

--

For some reason, which probably has a lot to do with The Name of the Doctor, I've recently been gripped with the urge to watch a bunch of Classic series episodes. So I've watched Terror of the Zygons, Pyramids of Mars, Castrovalva and Genesis of the Daleks, all just this week, and I intend to watch more whenever I get the time, focusing either on ones I've heard good things about or those with significant events such as companions joining/leaving or regenerations. It only seems appropriate in this year of the 50th anniversary that I get to grips with some of the Doctor's past adventures and old friends. The one I enjoyed most out of the ones mentioned here was Castrovalva; being the Fifth Doctor's post-regeneration episode, it meant his companions had to look after him and take initiative for themselves, which was nice, and then there was a neat sci-fi concept for the plot once it kicked in. I definitely plan to watch more Fifth Doctor episodes.

In general it is kind of odd watching Classic serials when I'm so used to the new series, though, because they can often be really slow-paced to start off with. Once things get going they're always very enjoyable, but I'm often left thinking they could have condensed the content of the first two or three episodes into about fifteen minutes and just got on with the story much quicker.

(This was typed up weeks ago, but then last night I also watched The Time Warrior, which was fun. It was Sarah Jane's first episode, and she did a bunch of awesome things in it for it being her first time time-travelling. No wonder people grew to like her so much.)

Crasher said:
I do find it interesting that the Doctor's tomb had the current desktop theme. Perhaps it had sensed which theme he was on and changed to prevent spoilers, because surely this can't be the last desktop theme. Was it stated to be dead, or dying? Because if it had been stated to be dead, it has some interesting implications.

I'm not sure it was made entirely clear, but I got the impression the giant TARDIS was only dying and not dead, as the telepathic circuits were working enough to reawaken Clara's memories.

It is interesting that she had the same desktop theme as the current one. I'm not sure that's necessarily because she'd changed it back, though - as I brought up in my own big spoiler about the episode, certain things seem to be indicating that, as things stand right now, it's the Eleventh Doctor who dies on Trenzalore. Also in support of this, I noticed something: when the TARDIS crash-lands on Trenzalore, she gets a broken window - and the giant TARDIS tomb also has that exact same window broken in the exact same way. We know how much the Doctor looks after her; he'd fix that up the moment he got a breather in between adventures that allowed him to do so. Which implies that both the Doctor and the TARDIS are supposed to die in this battle on Trenzalore in their really quite near future.

^Yeah, so this part was also typed up a while before hearing the news. More on its probable significance in response to the news.

Well. It's that time again - that time that comes around once every four years or so and turns every Doctor Who fan's world upside-down. (Or is that just me being melodramatic? It might be.)

I didn't think this would happen quite so soon. I'd sort of accepted and become okay with the fact that it'd probably be happening sometime in the not-so-distant future, but I'm sure there'd been some kind of official confirmation that Matt was going to be in series 8, hadn't there? So to learn that he wasn't actually going to be was a bit of a shock.

But regardless of the timings, this news is still just... aaa. Four years is such a long time! It feels like the Eleventh Doctor has been around forever. I've got so comfortably used to him being the Doctor, and thinking about him with all his mannerisms and quirks and psychological issues. It's going to be quite a thing to have to put that aside, move on and get to know an entirely new Doctor.

However. I am not worried. Last time I heard the news that the current Doctor would be regenerating, it kind of tore my world apart. The Tenth Doctor was also the best Doctor ever, and back then I really did not know if I would ever like another Doctor as much. This time, however, I do know. What with The Name of the Doctor firmly establishing that no matter what face he wears, he's still the Doctor, and with the Classic series episodes I've been watching, and, heck, just the fact that the Tenth-Eleventh transition went as smoothly for me as it possibly could have done... I just know that the Eleventh-Twelfth change is going to be equally fine. The Twelfth Doctor will still be the Doctor, just an entirely new, exciting, interesting version of him. What's not to look forward to?

Due to this reassurance, my initial reaction upon first reading the news was instead a very in-universe kind of reaction: a sort of "aww, poor Doctor" at the thought that he's going to die soon. (Well, not exactly die, but the Tenth Doctor viewed regeneration a lot like death, and I have a feeling the Eleventh will too.) Presumably this is what the Fall of the Eleventh really was talking about after all. In that interview with Matt giving his thoughts on leaving, he does say that Trenzalore calls, so I imagine that's how this is going to happen. It is interesting, though, that as things currently stand in-universe, it appears that the Doctor is destined to actually die in this battle on Trenzalore, what with his grave and Clara only seeing eleven versions of him in his timestream and everything. So the Doctor is going to arrive on Trenzalore for this battle while fully believing that it's going to outright kill him. D: And then presumably something will happen to change time so that he only has to regenerate rather than permanently die. Perhaps that'll be Clara's doing? I can just see her making a habit of screwing around with time in order to save the Doctor as best she can, never mind the consequences. Or perhaps it'll be the Doctor himself who'll manage to come up with a last minute jammy escape plan to avoid his seemingly-inevitable permanent death, since he has considerable history of doing so (Remember Silencio, and the Big Bang Two?) - except this time it won't quite be enough to save him from regenerating.

As for exactly why the Doctor will have to go to Trenzalore even though he knows it'll kill him, that crack in the TARDIS window I mentioned earlier in my post would presumably give him little choice. He'll have to go there before he fixes the window, unless he wants to cause a paradox. But then this could theoretically lead to the Doctor, being aware of this, deliberately not fixing the window and just going about his usual adventuring business anyway with the vague intention of eventually getting around to Trenzalore sometime in the future but not yet. He's done this kind of thing before, both in his current and his previous incarnation, after all. Time is not the boss of you - rule 408. I hope he doesn't run away for too long this time, though, largely because if he decides to make it centuries like he did last time then that'll mean he won't be with Clara for the majority of the time, and that should never happen. Though actually Clara's presence makes me feel it's less likely he'll run away from his death this time, because he won't have to face it alone.

In general I am very glad that Clara will be around for this transition. (She will, right? I believe Jenna has been confirmed to be in series 8, but then I thought Matt had been confirmed to be in series 8, so I'm slightly hesitant to believe what I thought I knew right now.) This is partly from an out-universe perspective, in that hopefully having a familiar face around will help make the transition to the Twelfth Doctor smoother for us fans, but largely it's also from an in-universe perspective. Over this past half-series and particularly in the finale, Clara's role towards the Doctor has very much evolved into her looking after him whenever he's vulnerable and afraid. (This is something I may possibly write an unnecessarily-long elyvorgramble about at some point.) And the Doctor is going to be so scared going to Trenzalore and facing what he's sure will be his death; having Clara be there for him will be an immense help. Not only that, but Clara is now the one companion who is the most completely used to the fact that the Doctor sometimes changes his face but is still ultimately the same man. She'll be barely fased at all by his change and will just be able to look after the Twelfth Doctor and help him through his regeneration trauma better than probably anyone else could. Not to mention that having Clara there in his earliest moments, when his personality's still forming, is going to lead to the Twelfth Doctor forming around her and becoming - well, I'd say even more adorably attached to Clara than he already is, but I'm not sure that's possible (...though I welcome him to try!). He's certainly going to remain at least as adorably attached to her as he already is, just in a slightly different way. Because I definitely haven't mentioned enough yet how adorable the Doctor and Clara are.

Also a thing I'm interested in is what kind of personality the Twelfth Doctor is going to have. I've read a theory somewhere that says that each new incarnation of the Doctor forms a personality that's best suited for dealing with some of the flaws that his previous personality had. So, for example, one of the contributing factors to the Tenth Doctor's downfall was the fact that he could be a little bit too arrogant at times - therefore, the Eleventh Doctor became a lot more noticeably, openly self-loathing than he used to be. Or there's the fact that the Tenth Doctor was one of the more outwardly emotional Doctors - as such, the Eleventh Doctor became someone who tries (though doesn't always succeed) to hide his emotions behind silliness and jokes a lot of the time. So I'll be interested to see more evidence of if this theory is actually a thing and how the Eleventh Doctor's current issues might influence how his next incarnation turns out. One of the things that has most defined the Eleventh Doctor recently, for me, is his utter inability to cope with loss, and change, and endings. But I don't really know how this could be resolved in the Twelfth Doctor's personality, if it is indeed a thing.

As for who'll actually be cast as the Twelfth Doctor - I really honestly don't mind who it turns out to be, because I have absolute faith that Steven Moffat will choose whoever is able to most brilliantly portray the new Doctor that he's creating. I do sort of hope it'll be someone I haven't heard of before (remember when we all had no clue who this "Matt Smith" guy was?), just so that I won't judge him based on anything else before seeing him as the Doctor. And one thing I do definitely hope to see in this person, something which isn't correlated to ability, is that he'll appreciate how the Doctor is the best character in the world and really get into the show and have loads of fun with the role like Matt and David did. Chris played a great Doctor, don't get me wrong, but it always makes me slightly sad to think how he saw it as basically just another job.

(also we are all going to be so amused if he's ginger aren't we)

...and yes, I know I've said "he", but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to the idea of it being a female Doctor. I would be open-minded about that if it were to happen - but I'm still kind of hoping he remains male just because it would make the transition smoother and the new Doctor easier to get used to.

So yeah. This is happening. I am already feeling incredibly sentimental about this, so expect many sappy posts from me about how amazing the Eleventh Doctor's run has been as we near the end of it. It happened last time with the Tenth Doctor; I see no reason why I shouldn't do it again.

And if there was anything that could make me less eager for it to be November 23rd right now, it's this. Not that I'm not itching to see the special, but I don't want to wish the Eleventh Doctor's time to be over so soon.

-elyvorg/Amelia

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