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The Faults of Gen VII

Discussion in 'Pokémon - Generation VII Discussion' started by RileyXY1, May 28, 2018.

  1. Twilight-Kun

    Twilight-Kun Pokemon World Champion

    Removing the Looker quest in USM was a mistake

    "We greatly expand on the Ultra Beasts and give them their own worlds, so let's completely remove the quest oriented around them!"

    Necrozma should've been introduced earlier in the story - when you go to Aether Paradise and the wormhole opened up, Necrozma is what should have popped out (and ironically, one of the trailers made it look like that's what happened) or at least been glimpsed - perhaps the hole was too small for it to come through

    Ultra Megalopolis should've been much more than a corridor - again, trailer hyped it up way too much

    Rainbow Rocket wasn't...terrible, but each villain should've used their own Grunts and the puzzles shouldn't have been so repetitive

    There were so many Skull/Rocket Grunt encounters that should've been double battles, but NOPE, have fun fighting them one at a time!

    Should've swapped the encounter rates around - make the old pokémon rarer encounters while the Alolan ones swarm you
     
    Minedreigon likes this.
  2. Mega Altaria

    Mega Altaria 4th anniversary of ORAS, 16th anniversary of RS

    I would have expected more from Ultra Megalopolis in the game. I would have liked to explore the houses that were there so that I could meet the residents. But it's unfortunate they can't be visited and the only visitable building is the Megalo Tower.
     
    PrinceOfFacade likes this.
  3. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    Agreed for the most part. I wish that the Ultra Beasts in US/UM had had a much bigger role in general, yet even the new ones seemed pretty unspectacular.
     
  4. PrinceOfFacade

    PrinceOfFacade Ghost-Type Master

    MAN that was HUGE missed opportunity.

    I cannot for the life of me understand why they would advertise Ultra Megalopolis that much but then not have anything present for us to explore.
     
  5. Mega Altaria

    Mega Altaria 4th anniversary of ORAS, 16th anniversary of RS

    Yeah. I thought that the other worlds accessible through Ultra Warp Ride were going to be the best thing ever. And the only people we got from there ended up being the Ultra Recon Squad.
     
  6. Ducolamia

    Ducolamia SAYYYY WHAT???

    Holy Cow, that bothers me so much too. I'm so glad I'm not going crazy when I saw that they hyped Megaopolis so big and then did nothing for it. It's literally a glorified staircase. Why make so much promotional art and crap all for a glorified staircase? Instead of making Pikachu Valley, one of the worst cases of useless fanservice I've seen in a Pokemon game, they could've taken that energy and made something cool with Megalopis like the distortion world. But no. Remember guys, the photo club and pikachu valley were ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY necessary, but expanding upon plot importance details are not.

    I don't understand that either. I still swear by this, but the Looker sidequests are the best part about pokemon games. They tell a coherent and entertaining story and whenever Looker appears he always gives you more lore and info as well as with some nice humor and genuine heartfelt moments. The fact they took this out is ridiculous to me. They could've expanded upon his story and relationship with Anabelle and Nanu, but they don't! The problem with USUM stands is that it expects you to play SM first to get details like that!

    I still stand by that Necrozma has one of the worst introductions for a third legendary. Even worse than Rayquaza. Even that mon had some suspense to it knowing it could make Kyogre and Groudon chill the hell out. Necrozma is stated to being the bringer of darkness and it's barely mentioned at all. Even the lore the URS gives you is barely related to Necrozma's role in the actual story.

    I've played through S/M/US/UM once per game. Fully. 4 times. I can completely agree with you. I guarantee you that they knew that the double battles made the game lag like hell, but they couldn't optimize it properly. So instead of fixing the problem, they just hid it behind making more single battles. I guarantee you that if hoards were still a thing, we would've had them here.
     
  7. JohnLynch

    JohnLynch Well-Known Member

    Well this thread is illuminating. I guess it's a good example of why avoiding the hype and trailers can make a better Pokemon experience.
     
    OshyHikari and Zhydra like this.
  8. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    I don't know about the Looker quest in S/M being all that great. The thing you actually do is get information, go out, catch an Ultra Beasts, go back to Looker. Rinse and repeat and it gets even worse in missions where you catch more than two of the same beast. While the lore on what actually goes on with the Beasts and its attempt at painting them in a different light is nice (They don't want to be here as much as you don't want them here.) it doesn't contribute much to the post games plot besides doing something about the Ultra Beasts that imo, should have been dealt with in the main stories climax. The majority of the plot in the post game was basically, your being used as bait for the Beasts instead of Anabel, while the lore expansion on Nanu is nice... that was all that we learned.

    I can get why USUM narrowed the Looker involvement to a minimum of foreshadowing RR. (Which is out there, but a superior post game compared to S/M.) The Ultra Warp Ride made the missions redundant and pointless. (Yes the Beasts Necrozma let loose were ignored as well and the post game beast quest was reduced to catching Blacephalon/ Stakataka, but that was because HE was the active threat that needed to be stopped. So they were handled off screen all the same. I do believe we debated a little on that) Since Anabel is still part of the battle tree, their role gets reduced to leading you to that place.
    If you liked the Looker Quest, I can get being disappointed, but that is how I see it.

    As for what we got in USUM to expand on the beasts, the UWR showed what each of the seven beasts are like when they are in their natural territory.

    Nihilego was creepy and dangled towards you when you sit on that rock.

    Pheromosa's world was out there, pretty and a desert.

    Buzzwoles was manly, silly and to my knowledge, the beast lives in a volcano. It makes you want to flex as well.

    Celesteela was odd yet cute. (The one that took off knew what you were there for!)

    Kartana... it's hilarious in hindsight for me because in a fanfic outline I made long before USUM was a thing a Kartana willingly worked along side a Hoopa to cause mischief and be that villains dragon. Ultra Forest making something like that possible to happen in canon, put a big smile on my face. (And went through with it.)

    Guzzlord... continues to be my favorite UB in a lore perspective. Left behind in a world that was blasted with radiation to where the inhabitants got out of there, they clean up the remains and from what the guy in the hazmat suit says, Guzzlord... isn't doing so well as a species.

    As for JohnLynch.

    That is a pro into lowering your expectations. Can't be let down if your hopes were not high in the first place and you go with your gut feeling.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
    Minedreigon likes this.
  9. JohnLynch

    JohnLynch Well-Known Member

    I don't know that I'm lowering my expectations. Gamefreak spoils everything in their games in trailers and prerelease info. I'm going to buy the Pokemon game. The spoilers and hype do notbing but ruin the experience by revealing plot points that would be more enjoyable if they were actually revealed in game. Besides getting a basic understanding of Let's Go Eevee and seeing a pic of Meltan, I've avoided as much as I can about Let's Go so I can experience it in game (although having played the basic game twice already there's not much left to preserve).

    When the gen 8 hype starts I'll avoid it like the plague except to see some in game footage (to set expectations regarding graphics) and then experience it all in game.

    I don't accept that's lowering standards.
     
  10. Prof. SALTY

    Prof. SALTY The Scruffy Professor

    I never found the cutscenes to be all that bad during my playthroughs.

    My biggest gripes are definitely the size of Alola, megas taking a backseat in favour of Z-Moves which I REALLY didnt like, Ultra Beasts in general weren't interesting to me at all, and the lack of post game content really stings.

    But my BIGGEST issue with gen 7 is the lack of side games. We had so few this generation and the ones we got weren't all that great. Most of them were mobile games and almost none of them utilise the quality Pokemon given to us this gen and the ones that DO have gen 7 mons only have them as support.
    - Pokken has 3 gen 7 support pokemon
    - Detective Pikachu had 4 gen 7 pokemon
    - Magikarp Jump has 4 gen 7 support pokemon
    - Pokemon Quest has 0 and is also the worst game ever
    - Pokemon GO (which I would very much consider a gen 6 game) has 0
     
  11. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    They wouldn't have been so bad if we could've rushed through them, but they were slow and I recall the graphics lagging a few times during them.
     
  12. Storm the Lycanroc

    Storm the Lycanroc Well-Known Member

    In order to get through the cutscenes I changed the settings to fast so the dialogue would appear faster.
     
  13. Twilight-Kun

    Twilight-Kun Pokemon World Champion

    Too bad the characters still had to do their slow animations which led to a few awkward scenes where the text was done and they're still emoting
     
  14. Mega Altaria

    Mega Altaria 4th anniversary of ORAS, 16th anniversary of RS

    I personally didn't find that too much of a problem because it didn't affect the core part of the gameplay that much as in the progression of the story but still they could make the animations faster so that the cutscenes can be done quickly.
     
  15. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    Speaking of which, some of their movements bugged me in general, such as Hau's surprised facial expressions. Gladio's smile was fantastic, however.
     
    Argentarus likes this.
  16. Storm the Lycanroc

    Storm the Lycanroc Well-Known Member

    And the protagonist would have the same expression on their face no matter what situation they're in.
     
  17. Ducolamia

    Ducolamia SAYYYY WHAT???

    Yeah, this is a new problem Pokemon has next to other 3d-equse RPGs. The characters usually have chibi models so that you can't assume what they're emotions are about the situation through dialogue and a limited set of emotions. It works to cute costs of having super highly detailed characters neeede to emote every single facial expression. Voice acting also helps to alleviate the wonkiness of the characters chibi models maybe not doing the best job at expressing a emotion.

    The problem? Sun and Moon has none of that. Characters emote like in any other 3d chibi-eqse rpg game, but the models are so detailed already. Them having these limited expressions are expected to cut time, but they don't compliment the scene because it takes forever for them to do simple actions.

    Giving an item to a player take too long to get than before. Talking to a story relevant character takes too long because they have to make these awkward expressions and pause for each turn they take.

    Once again, Pokemon is not the only one to do this, but it only looks bad here because the player refuses to show emotions. In ORAS we had emotions but here for some reason NOW the director thought that not infringing on our emotions was a good idea?

    It's simple really bad guys= angry emotion. It shouldn't be that hard. And I assume it was intentional considering they kept it for two games. Which is baffling to me. If Pokemon doesn't want highly detailed animations, fine. But they should do better to prevent the awkward jerkiness.
     
  18. Tsukuyomi56

    Tsukuyomi56 Blizzard Maiden

    Going to agree that the player character almost always smiling can make some things a bit awkward. It was a bit jarring seeing the player having a smile plastered on their face prior to facing Guzzlord in the Ultra Ruin (amongst other cutscenes).
     
    Minedreigon likes this.
  19. Argentarus

    Argentarus Sun's Out, Scorbun's out

    Story:
    They did very well with meshing concepts like interdimensional travel with invasive species, and, the overarching concept of life. USUM was a little generic with its story, though we finally got some of Necrozma's backstory, which deals with the idea of over-cultivation of resources due to greed through Necrozma's loss of light-making powers.

    The story in both games, when examined closely, were pretty good. SuMo had a really nice mysterious vibe surrounding the Ultra Beasts and Lusamine's plan with Nebby. USUM definitely felt like going through SuMo again, but because of the inclusion of the Ultra Recon Squad, they manage to change the course of the story because of their otherworldly expertise and helped to relate more to the player because there wasn't a need for the reintroduce old UBs. It was a smart choice for the story. I like how they managed to change Lusamine from the psycho that she was in the vanillas to an over-achieving antagonist who had the best of intentions and wanted to prove that she was capable of moving on without Mohn.

    For how cinematic these games were, I would have liked to see the dynamic of the Lusamine's family expanded upon a little more, to show the struggles they went through. More of a classic case of SHOW, DON'T TELL; you can't hear emotion from a line of text, like from Gladion's remark in SuMo during the Pokemon League afterparty.
    The scene after the main climactic battle in SuMo with Lusamine and Lillie is the most striking and poignant piece of dialogue this series has had to offer.
    The Exeggcutor Island scene in SuMo was very emotionally impactful, however, USUM's main character definitely got the short end of the stick with the Magikarp boat guy.

    I'm going to aknowledge the handholding but not going to go over , it's been said over a thousand times, let's move on.



    Features & Mechanics:

    Pokefinder:
    The Pokefinder was a nice inclusion. You take pictures of Pokemon around scenic routes, kind of like a what a real tourist would do in Hawaii. However, needing 1,500,000 thumbs-up is REALLY excessive for a 5th upgrade. It's nice to take pictures of them in their "natural habitat", but you'll have likely taken really good pictures of rare pokemon by then, essentially nullifying the feature. At least you get a stamp for completing it.
    EDIT: From what I get, it's those rare pokemon that look away or make it really hard to take a good picture. There's that.

    Alola Photo Club:
    Alola Photo Club has got to be my favourite out of all the features in USUM besides the Battle Tree. I'm kind of a sucker for photography or art, and if I can take pictures of my Sinnohian mythicals in a super-imposed remaster of Spear Pillar or Unovan pokemon in front of a remastered Sky Arrow Bridge. COUNT ME IN. The Photo Club is beyond amazing, but the only things I don't entirely like about the Photo Club are:
    1. That the camera angles aren't totally free, you can't face it upwards for more dynamic angles in areas that would have very dynamic backgrounds. (Motion-wise, kind of like the Pokedex.)
    2. The inability to move your main character when you and your pokemon are doing a photo shoot.
    3. The distance that your pokemon has to be away from you to perform certain actions (also stemming from point 2) and the lack of control over said actions; they could at least use the button to switch through the animations and then loop said animations. (Like the Pokedex!)
    I get that Zeraora does have a really wide animation with its somersaulting kick or whatever, but do I really have to move him to the other side of the room to get him to perform it, and on point 2, do I have to wait for Black Kyurem to decide to do a "flying arm swing" instead of an "arm thrust", and then realize that it was actually performing the latter. Make it intuitive, Game Freak!

    (I would have included the selection of character animations being composed of just a simple Alolan wave and Z-move animations, but due to the hardware limitations and dynamic movements of the Z-moves (which are amazingly expressive), they gets a pass.)


    Battle Royales:
    Battle Royales were the most interesting addition to the styles of battles. Must have been nice for the people who wanted that style, but I really do want Triple and Rotation battles back. The AI goes from its tutorial difficulty all the way to Pro, items and all, right on the first difficulty setting. Not even the battle facilities in Johto or Sinnoh had a difficulty spike that steep. Most of the time they all gang up on you. I finally got into it after a few losses with my own pokemon, but it was still pretty discouraging to play at first.

    Battle Tree:
    The Battle Tree is actually pretty fun, you get to battle trainers from previous generations, besides Generation 2, of course.
    (This iteration of Red's team was introduced in Generation 2, but it's a bit of a stretch.)
    My only minute problem with it: You don't unlock the songs played during special trainer battles (i.e. Wally, Grimsley, Cynthia) to play while battling other trainers, but at the end of the day they're special trainer themes.

    Battle Agency:
    It's pretty good, almost like a revamped Battle Factory, but it requires 2 other online players to have already initiated a battle in the Battle Agency for you to put them on your team. You have to deal with finding partners who are also going up the ranks around the same level as you and finally, the special boss character should have been set to only be battled at Rank 50. (It's a surprise for you guys who haven't put time into it.)

    Festival Plaza:
    Like Join Avenue from Black 2 and White 2, but... with a much more butchered execution. It's trying to be the PSS and Join Avenue at the same time, which causes some problems, namely: It wants to be real-time, but the game can only handle so many models and names at the same time. The way the listing system works make everything very tedious to scroll through.
    The worst part about it is when you're trying to VIP someone, but the game says that you can't VIP them; from what I gather, this is likely caused because they were previously loaded up from the last session and haven't been replaced by a new round of random players.
    (Still not entirely sure how it works, I'll look into everything.)

    Pokemon:
    Wild held items and wild Alolan pokemon:
    I've tried to evolve Gligar, but I need a Razor Fang to do that. Guess what pokemon is the only pokemon to holds that item... Bruxish. Which only has a 5% encounter rate with normal fishing or 20% on "bubble" fishing (where it still barely shows up) and has a 5% chance for a Razor Fang. Unfortunately, Razor Fangs aren't obtainable in the regional battle facility like they were last generation, it's a 5% encounter item on a pokemon that appears infrequently.
    Game Freak didn't even give some of the new Alolan pokemon a chance, either; most Alolan pokemon are pretty weak and the one's from the later Dex's were put have or are under 5% encounter rates in the areas that they appear in. (e.g. Passimian, Oranguru, Comfey (in SuMo), and Mimikyu (But, Mimikyu is definitely worth it)

    Mythicals:
    The mythicals were poorly handled in the Alola games, just like with the Kalos mythicals. They're just "Moviemons", and are just there to look pretty, sell merchandise, and add to your collection of legendary pokemon. I didn't care about Magearna until a month ago when I used it.
    The Pokemon movies are usually so-so and don't give much backstory or significance about the Pokemon, which makes the mythicals suffer a lot. (Especially for the ones without backstories.) Magearna/Volcanion's movie, Volcanion and the Mechanical Wonder was very non-sensical: A mad scientist wants to destroy a meadow with a H U G E death laser for what reason now, and somehow the pokemon of the meadow produce an energy shield made of *surprise* energy, love and the ✧・゚: *✧・゚:・゚♡*power of friendship*♡:・゚✧*:・゚✧.
    GF needs to up their game on the mythicals, because they're a little more special when they have some depth and significance to its region.
    Yeah, Zeraora might have inspiration from Kanehekili; god of Thunder; but if so, what role does it play in the region compared to the Tapus and boxart legendaries andwhat makes it MYTHical?

    Finally, the removal of the national dex:
    This was such A MAJOR STEP BACKWARDS, Pokemon's catchphrase is "Gotta catch 'em all". There's not even a stupid certificate or reward for catching all 808, no incentive at all. The joy with dex's was scrolling up and down your Pokedex and checking out all of the cool formes and shinies that you've seen. Now, the Alolan national dex is behind a yearly-paid subscription service with half of the features and appeal of the in-game ones. The megas that didn't appear on the Alolan Dex don't have own entries, and the ones that do have them show up in Sun/Moon or USUM's Pokedex. Evolving an Axew or Piplup doesn't amount to anything , because they aren't in the Alola Pokedex and would've already been registered on Pokemon Bank through Gen 6.

    Miscellaneous:
    If anybody remembers the ORAS interview where they stated that they didn't add a battle tower because "everybody would be more interested with smartphone games instead of putting time and attention into competing in the battle facility", something upon those lines.
    The series may be catered toward a younger demographic, but cutting out half of the pokedex and most of the core features just isn't the way to go.
    Game Freak keeps forgetting that there are adults and older fans that still play these games, they need to stop cutting corners where they shouldn't be cut. They should have focused on making their newer games have as much content as possible, like they said when they worked on HGSS, even if that takes an extra year. Although the expositional post-game events like the Delta Episode are nice, they are just sparkly one-time events with assets that only get used once; something like the Battle Tower/Battle Frontier have replay value. I feel that Alola did have very interesting and fun gameplay; but at a few points it felt rushed and incomplete, likely because a third version for Kalos was in production, but then they decided to put effort into Alola for the 20th anniversary, because sparkly new region for big sparkly anniversary year.
    They've got the money! Pokemon actually makes 1.5B annually; which means that they have more than enough to make a properly thought-out and well-executed game, no matter how long they have to wait. (The whole franchise has also grossed about $90 billion and is the all-time highest-grossing franchise, let that sink in.)

    The thing that has made the Alolan games really fleshed-out and fuller, for me, is... the anime. If your supplementary media for your games feels more fleshed out than your games, you're doing it wrong. Especially when it's been shown that it can be done in previous entries.
    The first visit to the Aether Paradise always felt really weird to me. Lusamine owns the place, has dozens of employees who will make sure that the island is on lock-down, and decides to not take Cosmog from Lillie for what reason? Lillie literally stole it, and then she also disowns her child in front of the player later in the story; it makes no sense!

    Third-version split:
    I don't think that the "third version-split" thing with USUM isn't so bad, it came around because of a design choice from the first games, namely the Sun and Moon motif, mechanics, and what not; and then they also wanted to accommodate a game for the third legendary in the trio but didn't want to do a sequel, so it ended up being a split third version. It does nullify the vanilla versions to an extent, but it does offer what a standard third version would offer: New features, additional areas & content, and a story revolving around third legendary trio member.

    *SuMo/USUM main character's official names are actually Elio & Selene, betcha didn't know that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
    Zhydra and Ducolamia like this.
  20. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    I can see that in the vanilla games, but US/UM has QUITE a few side quests... you did those yet? (Otherwise yes the anime gives that feeling of community better.)
     

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