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The Faults of Generation V

Discussion in 'Pokémon Generation V Discussion' started by KyogreThunder, May 28, 2018.

  1. Mega Altaria

    Mega Altaria The best Mega Evolution

    The player literally being forced to get the elemental monkey at the Dreamyard in order to beat the first Gym in Pokémon Black and White. It was quite challenging for a first Gym Leader like that where the starter Pokémon was at a type disadvantage against the Gym Leader like that the player was at a disadvantage against Brock in the original games. Except that the player was forced to be at a type disadvantage against the first Gym Leader in the game.
     
  2. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    In terms of new features it was somewhat limited sure, although the fact that so many new areas became accessible balanced it out from my vantage point.
     
  3. KyogreThunder

    KyogreThunder Call of Fate

    Diving in Generation V was just too limited. I also dislike the step limit in Abyssal Ruins.
     
    Ducolamia likes this.
  4. Ducolamia

    Ducolamia SAYYYY WHAT???

    Man I hated that too. I thought I was the only one. I get the abyssal ruins are decaying but it makes things harder to get the items I want.
     
  5. Zhydra

    Zhydra Well-Known Member

    Few flaws I have to say about Gen 5
    1. Most of the pokemon introduced on Unova are carbon copies of gen 1 pokemon. Patrat, Woobat, Timburr, Gigalith and Audino. While some of my favorite pokemon of all time started in this generation... this is pretty lazy.

    2. Musical as someone mentioned... I forgot about them and I like Pokestar Studios better.

    3. The elemental monkeys, I never cared for them and the game gave you one to fight the first gym. And we gripe about pokemon lets go and the entry for the first gym!

    4. How they transition B/W to the sequel, if you liked your character getting attached to the rest of the cast. Having him/her disappear without a trace can be discouraging.

    5. Besides Victini, this was when they stopped making you capture mythical pokemon.

    6. Berry growing and the Dream World.
     
  6. Minedreigon

    Minedreigon Prisoner to Formulae

    Despite the fact this is my favourite gen I have problems with it.

    And this still isn’t one of them. Good grief I’m tired of hearing this because it’s basically a null complaint. Firstly you’re using the word “most”. Most?! People complain about some Pokémon specifically when talking about this, and these are the ones that most commonly come up.

    - Sawk and Throh
    - Timburr line
    - Woobat line
    - Roggenrola line

    In fact these are actually the only 4 claims that I believe have any credibility. Clearly these ones in particular are probably loosely inspired by gen 1 counter parts, due to evolution methods and design choices being a bit similar, but that’s all it is. A mostly completely new spin on old ideas. And that’s fine! It’s totally fine for something be inspired on older works, it shows willingness to improve and admit when an idea didn’t work as well as you wanted it to in the past. The Roggenrola line is one of my favourites to date, even.

    So with these ones in mind that’s about 10 Pokémon. Out of 150. Yeah, most is wrong.

    So at the moment I’ve established that a) I don’t think it is a bad thing in this case and b) it’s a very small portion of the Pokédex. And I still have more to say about it.

    Some people almost want this to be a complaint to the point where they totally stretch it out of proportion. Pattaya is a Ratatta clone? Every single gen has a route 1 rodent! Why is it suddenly only a bad thing when gen 5 does it? I’ve even seen people try and say things like Litwik is a Gastly ripoff which I just find really funny.

    Rant over...

    My genuine complaints with this game mostly boil down to the fact that in BW a few Pokémon evolve too late to be used effectively. Stuff like Vanillish, Klang, Pawniard, Mienfoo, Rufflet and Vullaby, and then you’ve got the absolute worst cases, Larvesta and Zweilous, which won’t evolve until the post game unless you do major grinding. This annoyed me because a lot of these Pokémon just aren’t endgame material or even competent when you get them in the mid game, especially when at this point I could potentially already be destroying everything with a Darmanitan. It’s just a shame.

    It seems like BW2 actually took some of this on board, however. The game lasts a bit longer so you’ll probably hit some of these levels with more of the game, and you can catch Braviary / Mandibuzz and Volcarona underlevelled, which I really appreciate.

    Other than that I think this gen kind of began to drop the ball on mythicals. I say kind of because Victini was still catchable and each of them at least had minor in game events where they would get an item or learn a move, and someone would give lore. It got much worse next gen. But it’s still a shame it began to drop in depth in this gen.
     
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  7. Zhydra

    Zhydra Well-Known Member

    Those pokemon you mentioned along with the others are the ones burned into my brain. I'm sorry if I exaggerated, but those pokemon are like a splinter wedged into a thumb.

    As for Litwick... people actually call it a Gastly ripoff? Those two design, evolution method and even type are next to nothing alike. (Besides that they are ghost types found in a tower... I'm more scared of Litwick in comparison.)

    You are also right that the pokemon you mentioned evolved so god damn late in the game. You don't even find Deino until you get to victory road in BW . (B2 and W2 is even worse since by the time you get a Zweilous, the main plot is finished.)
     
    Minedreigon likes this.
  8. Ducolamia

    Ducolamia SAYYYY WHAT???

    I never got that either. Suddenly in one gen people complain about the ratata clone or the Pidgey clone but for four gens it's peferctly acceptable? Like, I get Pidove sucks, but regional birds and rats serve their purpose as an intro to the region itself. That's always been their purpose. To reflect the region's pokedex.

    You don't have to like them(not targeting you, just wanted to make it clear), but the most part, every gen 5 Pokemon served a purpose whether as a filler mon or a pseudo. The gen 5 pokedex would be as unsatisfying as gen 6's Pokedex if they didn't got above and beyond. They could've just given us the bare minimum, but in order to recreate that experience of when you first went through a region I felt they did that well.

    That being said I don't like all the Pokemon in gen 5. I agree with the fact too many of them evolve wayyyy too late to be helpful. Deino, Pawniard, Briviary. All of them take way too long to be useful and before that you have to deal with such lackluster stats. In future gens, raising your Pokemon is a bit easier, but it's just not worth it and then you get access to a post game area in which you get this:



    I don't know why they didn't just give us some ditto and fully evolved mons like Altaria to catch. It's really pointless.
     
    Zhydra likes this.
  9. Zhydra

    Zhydra Well-Known Member

    I will admit this once more, I exaggerated and I apologize for being wrong.

    I don't like Sentret or Tailow if that is fair. One has next to nothing to offer even compared to Raticate and the other is more akin to Fearow in concept. (All though with guts, Swellow can be one of the fastest facade users in the game and its brave bird if boosted will mess you up.)

    I give Bidoof credit for its final evolution having a unique type, Bibarel use to be one of the best H.M slaves in the game. Has swords dance as of gen 7 and with simple and aqua jet. :) Also Starly becomes an awesome pokemon on evolving and Zigzagoon as of today can be a SCARY pokemon if given a berry, has gluttony, belly drum and a good time to use all that. It's extreme speed can and will hit hard.

    (I don't hate the early game birds and rats, most I just don't care for.)

    I am also the guy that likes Vanilluxe... if only because once I evolved that Vanillish I picked up to go against the dragon gym... he did me good! I gave him a chance and he delivered.

    Mr. Conroy is a favorite lets player of mine and he has a good point on the cream of Gen 5's crop... evolving too late to be helpful.
     
    Ducolamia likes this.
  10. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    The step limit made sense though since it was put there in order to make reaching all the treasure challenging. I kind of liked that.
     
  11. PrinceOfFacade

    PrinceOfFacade Ghost-Type Master

    Well then, let's get to it!

    1. Pokémon Roster: Quantity Over Quality

    It was clear the desire to repeat Gen 1's large roster was more important than actually designing good pokemon, leading to a lot of terrible design choices. The worst part is, Ken Sugimori creates all the final art, so he let this happen.

    2. Six Brand-New Pokémon On Your Team... Whether You Like It Or Not

    In addition to the terrible design choices, another bad choice was having a Gen 5-only regional dex. It did not make these pokemon more desirable. In fact, it made me dislike them even more, because I had no way to avoid dealing with them.

    3. So Many Pokémon, So Little Available

    Despite the game having 156 pokemon that we had to deal with throughout the story, the dispersion of those pokemon throughout the region was despicable. The same few pokemon would be seen constantly every three or four routes, and many pokemon weren't even available until after the story was completed. Furthermore, the gyms had such limited pokemon to battle. There were 9 new Electric pokemon in Black & White, exlcuding legendaries, but only two them appeared throughout Nimbasa Gym: Emolga an Blitzle. Whose idea was this???

    4. Striaton Gym Has Three Gym Leaders, and Isn't A Triple Battle?

    This seemed like a missed opportunity to me. It could have been a great way to introduce the new battle style that now no longer exists, albeit requiring the player to catch at least two pokemon before taking on the gym. Still, the way it went down was just plain weird. I've always felt all three of them should have been battled at once.



    I got more, but I am super tired, and can't be bothered to think that hard. I'll probably add more to the list in the future.
     
  12. Minedreigon

    Minedreigon Prisoner to Formulae

    So I accidentally deleted a longwinded reply to this so let me recap it shortly:

    1) I already explained why the gen 1 clone thing is moot. Try to convince me otherwise. Give me a list of the offenders. Tell me why it’s not inspiration but blatant copying. Tell me why inspiration is a bad thing. Tell me Hydreigon is a bad design.

    2) Having only new Pokémon forces new players to adapt in BW. They have to use Pokémon they haven’t used, always get to see new ones as the journey progresses, etc. It feels genuinely new and is a risk I can praise BW for at least taking, as I hate nothing more than safe game design.

    3) Everything except the mythicals, Zorua / Zoroark, all the starters, the wrong box legendary, and Kyurem is obtainable before the end of the game. Compare to DP where nearly every newly introduced evolution, along with Rotom, wasn’t available until after the main story was completed. Also you see a new Pokémon you haven’t had the chance to capture yet on nearly every new route in BW. The gym leaders in BW also feel extremely memorable because they actually do things outside of their gyms and have an impact on the world around them, as well as the story. They don’t just appear in their gym and never show up before or again like Ramos or a lot of the other XY ones.

    4) Probably fair. But I personally don’t like triple battles anyway.
     
  13. Zhydra

    Zhydra Well-Known Member

    1. I already admitted that I was wrong... and Hydreigon is one of my favorite gen 5 pokemon and favorite pokemon of all time. In fact I got a list of pokemon from Gen 5 that I like.

    Volcarona, Hydreigon, Vanilluxe, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Serperior, Crustle, Cinccino, Durant, Accelgor, Escavalier, the Kami trio once they got the therian forms, Zoroark, Golurk. (Chicks dig giant robots.) Druddigon. (His abilities and move pool make him a VERY useful pokemon.) Scolipede, Jellicent, Cofagrigus, Chandelure, Stoutland. (Early game mon that is common, a normal type and is... very good. "Heresy") Excadrill. (I like this mole better than Dugtrio, fight me!), Darmanitan, Krookodile, Scrafty, Genesect.
    This list going to take a while, but you get the idea.
    The clone pokemon I don't care for and there are a few original pokemon in gen 5 that I think we were better off without. (Looking at you Stunfisk!) But the vast majority of Gen 5's pokemon ARE treasures. (The same can't be said for Gen 1 or 2's pokemon. They got some that are as generic as they come.)

    2. That is the reason I like Colosseum. (Spin off game that is close to the formula.) You are stuck with what is given and you are to make due with them. That game gives you an underdog mon to work with while B/W gives you mostly new pokemon. (Both games have what is the best evil teams period. Cipher due to how the organization as a whole has been on the bottom of the morality ladder with their shadow pokemon. "Messed up when you think about it." Team Plasma due to how most of them are hypocrites and is actually being run pokemon Pokemon's equivalent to Satan. "Ghetsis... who would give Cipher a run for their money in terms of evil.")

    3. No comment since Gen 5's Gym leaders are hands down the best. (The gen 2 remakes did something similar, but gen 5 actually have the Gym Leaders be involved in the plot.) Plus Elesa is my favorite Gym Leader period. (Irony enough, her gym in BW2 are not much mechanic wise... but the theme and what happens in that gym is SO in character that it makes me fall in love with her.)

    4. Triple Battles over complicated things and they will not be missed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018 at 1:08 PM
    Minedreigon likes this.
  14. Mega Altaria

    Mega Altaria The best Mega Evolution

    Triple Battles took a bit of time to think about because there were many Pokémon on the field at the same time. What I didn't like about it is that the player would have to not use an attack just to shift Pokémon to the centre and that opportunities can be missed on taking out the opponent's Pokémon.
     
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  15. Minedreigon

    Minedreigon Prisoner to Formulae

    Don’t worry, it wasn’t addressed to you! I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here.
     
    Zhydra likes this.
  16. PrinceOfFacade

    PrinceOfFacade Ghost-Type Master

    Yeah, I don't care what you think. Not here anyhow.

    You can try it in another thread.
     
  17. Minedreigon

    Minedreigon Prisoner to Formulae

    But I was actually genuinely curious... I would have quite liked to hear what the main offenders actually were!

    Anyway I guess I also quite disliked rotation battles. The AI seemed a little too good at knowing what turn as I was going to make. I also just didn’t really find it that fun. Ah well.
     
    Zhydra likes this.
  18. Zhydra

    Zhydra Well-Known Member

    Rotation battles were better than triple battles... but that doesn't mean they were that good. (Like triple battles, they won't be missed.)

    I also think I know the pokemon this guy isn't happy about, the elemental monkeys. (I complained about them already.)

    Garbador. (To be fair, the hideousness is intentional due to it literally being a busted open garbage bag.)

    Vanilluxe. (Because everyone hates ice cream!)

    Stunfisk. (Who's only niche is its unique type and an ability that as of gen 6 is useless for an electric type.)

    Then maybe... Basculine. (I don't care for them and I find them kind of cute.)
    I'm excluding Emolga because it is the mandatory Pikachu clone and I like some of them.

    Minedragon... I want to ask. Which among gen 5 do you not like? Because in every generation, there IS a pokemon that stinks worse than others. In fact... don't answer that on this thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018 at 12:42 AM

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