The Finals! The Ultimate Rival Showdown!! (1081)

[UltimateNinja]

The Furfrou trainer was the perfect example why leagues should be a bit longer than they usually were in the past. I enjoy non-Ash battles in a league if there don't go overboard with it. The Furfrou battle was pointless however and they should just have Ash fight one of the participants or use that one filler episode before the league for proper build up. To sum it up, make leagues longer and use the time correctly. Too bad that when they finally made a longer one with the Alola league, it ended up spending episodes for irrelevant filler fights for all the people who shouldn't participate at the first place.

So please whatever happens in gen 8, restrict the league to people with 8 badges again and make it 12-15 episodes long.

 

[PokemonKnight]

Furfou trainer was a filler fight during the league. Regardless of if you like it or not, we didn't get to see a complete battle between the Furfou trainer OR Trevor/Alain, because the episode kept cutting between them. If the Furfou trainer was that important the battle should have happened before the league, not during the opening battle.

So? Plenty of important battles have been interrupted by cuts. The Ash/Paul Sinnoh League fight consists of cut scenes galore filled with mostly irrelevant and redundant commentary and poor jokes but that doesn't render the battle any less important.

The end of Episode VI cuts between three major set pieces so the audience doesn't witness the complete acts of all fights but it worked to end a trilogy and it worked for Pokemon. The messages were conveyed: Trevor is no match for Alain's raw strength and the Furfou trainer is not worthy, despite his passion, of entrance into the Kalos League.

 

[TheNewGuy]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had trouble with the animation here. Really repetitive and cheap.

I know the styles are different between this and XY, so there's some allowance for that, but the difference between the animation in the league semi-finals and finals between XY and here is very stark. XY's animation was brain-melting, this was slow and repetitive and poor. Ash may well win this league, but XY's animation was so satisfying that the battles just felt better, more visceral, and conveyed more emotion.

Him winning a league with this battle - so far, anyway - while obviously still great, would not be anywhere near as satisfying as it would be if he'd actually beaten that damn Megazard. Or maybe not even as satisfying as when he beat the Mega Sceptile in the semis. It does take the edge off a little bit sadly for Ash to finally win a league but without a single battle that you'd even put in the top 5 in the anime's history. Ideally you'd want the episode where he actually finally wins the thing to ALSO be the best battle the series has ever had, but I'd settle simply for something that's "up there", like at least kind of "in the conversation".

As of right now the best battle of this league didn't even involve Ash. And I don't see how in the second episode this can possibly end up being a truly great battle, even if Ash wins it.

 

[DatsRight]

I think this was decent though I will admit it doesn't exactly strike me as finals material. The semi finals I do think were a good step up, they had that more visceral and intense nature with the bonus of this series' more character driven nature. I'm kinda hoping next episode brings back some of that intensity.

 

[RedR]

But thing about Alain vs Ash is that we saw how Ash will now handle defeat at the League. No tears, no sadness, just that sense of satisfaction that he got the best battle for the Kalos League. It didn't matter to him if he won or not, which is something that Alain has never really understood till after the Team Flare crisis.

So I ask again... What happens if Gladion loses? That he fails to live up the promise he made for his family? How would he react? How would they react?

It's something I notice about the Alola League as a recurring theme. How does one handle a loss in the Pokémon League?

We see Guzma coming to terms with the fact he's no unbeatable and that he shouldn't be afraid of defeat. We see Kiawe realizing that his rival doesn't have to be only Ash. Lana is more determined to work harder to overcome future tough opponents after losing to Guzma, even citing that Guzma didn't break the rules. Hau still gets a grandfather's hug for how strong he is despite victory being taken away. Team Rocket vows to find another way to conquer Alola. Lillie showcases her growth as a trainer. Faba is a sore loser hoisted by his own petard. And Mallow is remind of how strong the bond is with Tsareena and that she should fight till the end rather than just recall in early defeat (as well perfecting Bloom Doom).

And we should already be accustomed to how Ash handles a League loss (well, several League losses). So what about Gladion? How would he handle defeat?

I read this last weekend, and I wanted to say that this is a GREAT theory you've brought up! Even if ash loses, this makes sense to me!

 

[Power Up]

So? Plenty of important battles have been interrupted by cuts. The Ash/Paul Sinnoh League fight consists of cut scenes galore filled with mostly irrelevant and redundant commentary and poor jokes but that doesn't render the battle any less important.

The end of Episode VI cuts between three major set pieces so the audience doesn't witness the complete acts of all fights but it worked to end a trilogy and it worked for Pokemon. The messages were conveyed: Trevor is no match for Alain's raw strength and the Furfou trainer is not worthy, despite his passion, of entrance into the Kalos League.

Yup. People heavily overrate the Ash v Paul battle. It’s borderline unwatchable on visuals alone. Fight direction is pathetic and the overuse of stock footage is just bleh. Long and constant panning shots, irrelevant cuts to Dawn and Brock, the padding was on overdrive..

The depth/substance behind the battle and the narrative was A+, but the problems above are glaring holes

Agree wholeheartedly with all of this post

 

[Lord Godwin]

Yup. People heavily overrate the Ash v Paul battle. It’s borderline unwatchable on visuals alone. Fight direction is pathetic and the overuse of stock footage is just bleh. Long and constant panning shots, irrelevant and unneeded cuts to Dawn and Brock, the padding was on overdrive..

The depth/substance behind the battle and the narrative was A+, but the problems above are glaring holes

Agree wholeheartedly with all of this post

The Ash vs Paul battle was nice from animations perspective.

What I didn't like about it is that instead of using his core Team (the one used at Lake Acuity) besides possibly Torterra which might be too OP, he uses some random Pokemon. I would've preferred to see Weavile, Magmortar, Hunchcrow and, most importantly, Ursaring who was a beast.

 

[Power Up]

The Ash vs Paul battle was nice from animations perspective.

What I didn't like about it is that instead of using his core Team (the one used at Lake Acuity) besides possibly Torterra which might be too OP, he uses some random Pokemon. I would've preferred to see Weavile, Magmortar, Hunchcrow and, most importantly, Ursaring who was a beast.

You should rewatch it. I tried and I realized there might have actually been more talking than actual battling.

 

[PokemonKnight]

You should rewatch it. I tried and I realized there might have actually been more talking than actual battling.

Eons ago, a thread was made on the 1st anniversary of the battle discussing the sentiment after a year's passage. A poster commented that only about 15-17 minutes out of the 45 minutes spent on the fight was actual battle footage. Now, I never tested the numbers myself and it seems unbalanced but I could believe it. There is a lot of Piplup pipluping, Brock and Reggie repeating each other ( with Reggie thinking losing two Pokemon to scouting purposes against an opponent whose team you know is somehow a puppet-master level strategy. It is not. Paul's Lake Acuity team smashed Ash's Sinnoh team, why would changing squads and sacrificing two Pokemon to confirm what you already know be praise worthy?) , Barry fanboying, Dawn fangirling, and Team Rocket making asinine comments. Throw in Ash and Paul quipping at each other and large chunks of time were spent on non-battle segments. Now, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with narration and commentary but most of the speaking was repetitive, unnecessary, ridiculous (apparently, Reggie thinks Ash is fighting Xanatos. No Reggie, he is fighting a kid who thinks sacrificing two Pokemon to confirm what he already knows. That was dumb not brilliant and it cost him at the end), or just annoying.

What carries the fight is the climax of a looonnnngggg rivalry and the final fight between two powerhouses. Electrive-Infernape is phenomenal but you have to wade through too much flotsam and jetsam to reach it. The writers repeated the Charizard mistake of having Ash's ace beat three Pokemon. Torterra is shafted again and they missed a golden opportunity to display Ash mastering the use of bulky Pokemon by having his Torterra beat Paul's Torterra. Instead, Infernape beats Aggron. Boring. It is crazy. They spent an entire region building up and showcasing a rival's team and then they leave most of those Pokemon on the sidelines. Really? And it makes Paul look silly. He knows Ash well enough that Ketchum is going to use his Lake Acuity team to prove a point so instead of keeping most of the squad (and inserting Drapion as a nice surprise) he brings other Pokemon, while strong, don't appear to be on the same level or have the confidence boost of winning an earlier fight. He knows Ash cannot match him in a pure power fight but instead of keeping the sluggers in his lineup he tries to use speed (Ninjask) and stealth (Frostlass) which annoy but don't win. He basically sacrifices his inmate advantages over Ash for no apparent reason other to change things up which plays into Ash's hands. I can see why Paul never won a league. His strategic prowess is based on just being more powerful and when he fights an opponent either equal or above his power level, his power is neutralized. Ash thrives on strategy and countering clever tactics. His biggest weakness is not building a regional lineup of heavy hitters which leaves him vulnerable to a veteran who uses rotation. Paul had grown to respect Ash (a little) but Paul, as a character, should be arrogant and smart enough to stick with what works. The fight was 6-2 and Ash had no answers for Torterra or Magmortar on his Sinnoh team. Yet, Reggie praises him and that is crazy because the writers use secondary commentators to explain their decision process. See how Misty's sisters justified rewarding Ash with the Cascade Badge by mentioning how Pikachu's absence from the battle was decisive. That is the writers speaking.

Clearly, the Sinnoh League writers misjudged his character and the fight suffered for it. Seriously, Torterra, Magmortar, and others were dropped for rarely or never seen before Pokemon in a region that stretched for 191 episodes and focused heavily on a rivalry? At least with Alain, they had the Charizard X Mega Evolution plot/excuse. And yeah, I know, Paul doesn't keep weak Pokemon, he rotates, etc etc. Ultimately, it is a work of fiction. People expect narrative payoff and they enjoy continuity. Seeing Ash defeat some of his demons would have been entirely more satisfying than taking out the unknown crew. Furthermore, the drama would have been raised every time those Pokemon were called upon for battle. If you are going to introduce Pokemon, use them. I guess the writers figured they couldn't come up with a believable way to justify an Ash win ( I disagree) but in that case they missed out on realizing they also robbed Ash from fully showing the growth obtained from his Sinnoh journey and justifying his training principles by beating Paul's peak team.

It is a good battle, even great at times, but it is not the pinnacle of fighting or narrative force. It feels empty, at times, because so much of the buildup is ignored.

That is the thing about the Ash-Gary battle. Ash knew he needed every ounce of power he had just to stay on the field. He even left Pikachu on the sidelines and went with seldom used reserves. Eventually, he overcame the power battle with patented Ketchum strategy. But no amount of strategy would have saved him if he went small (Totodile, Cyndaquil, etc). And the show makes that clear.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Most battles in Pokemon, even the big ones, include panning and discussion from the peanut gallery.

If Ash/Paul is "overrated", all of them are. As a Pokemon battle it's the best one. To dispute Ash/Paul's status as the best battle people have to hold it to exceptionally high standards that they don't for other battles. For example, I've seen people complain that it was "too dramatic, now a quick attack from Pikachu is the same as a brick break from Electivire?" when attacks colliding and being equal is such a standard Pokemon trope. It happens like at least once per battle but in Ash/Paul it's used as a stick to beat it with. Has anyone gone back to the Ash/Gary battle (which was only 2 episodes long) and done a specific analysis of how many minutes are spent battling? No, because nobody holds that battle, with its near-mythical status, to as exacting a standard as they hold Ash/Paul. People complain about Torterra being shunned but how many were shunned in the Ash/Gary battle? Bayleef and Arcanine at least. And not only is Ash/Gary shorter, a lot of the battles there ended in one hit. This is the great counterexample people bring to deny Ash/Paul's place as the GOAT?

Also, the people ITT are doing a disservice to the sheer narrative weight of that battle. It was not Ash's Infernape vs. Paul's Electivire and the rest was just filler to get to that point. The battle was more strategic than any other that has happened in the anime, included more status and status moves, and included more narrative weight and callbacks than any other too. To check down the list:

-CounterShield
-Paul STEALING Counter Shield
-The ongoing theme of Paul restraining Ash's Pokemon to deny him his love of speed (happened to all 6 of his Pokemon at one point, I think).
-Toxic Spikes, and Ash's way of dealing with them
-Ice Aqua Jet
-Hail/Snow Cloak
-Gliscor using Giga Impact and then getting out of dodge for the recharge turn, like the Scizor he was left with
-Thunder in the ground


It was one of the smartest and most narratively satisfying battles the show has ever had - rewarding people for paying attention and watching the entire Sinnoh saga by using stuff like Ice Aqua Jet - before you even get into Blaze, and then that whole conclusion was directed and executed in a much more satisfying way than any other battle.

Oh and lastly, the complaint about Paul's team totally misunderstands his character. Paul using the same team again would have been absolutely out of character for him - Paul and even Reggie repeatedly questioned Ash for using the same team again and again. The idea that he used 'weak Pokemon' is so, so laughable.

XY's superior animation threatens it, maybe, but nothing that came before Ash/Paul is close.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

Most battles in Pokemon, even the big ones, include panning and discussion from the peanut gallery.

If Ash/Paul is "overrated", all of them are. As a Pokemon battle it's the best one. To dispute Ash/Paul's status as the best battle people have to hold it to exceptionally high standards that they don't for other battles. For example, I've seen people complain that it was "too dramatic, now a quick attack from Pikachu is the same as a brick break from Electivire?" when attacks colliding and being equal is such a standard Pokemon trope. It happens like at least once per battle but in Ash/Paul it's used as a stick to beat it with. Has anyone gone back to the Ash/Gary battle (which was only 2 episodes long) and done a specific analysis of how many minutes are spent battling? No, because nobody holds that battle, with its near-mythical status, to as exacting a standard as they hold Ash/Paul. People complain about Torterra being shunned but how many were shunned in the Ash/Gary battle? Bayleef and Arcanine at least. And not only is Ash/Gary shorter, a lot of the battles there ended in one hit. This is the great counterexample people bring to deny Ash/Paul's place as the GOAT?

Also, the people ITT are doing a disservice to the sheer narrative weight of that battle. It was not Ash's Infernape vs. Paul's Electivire and the rest was just filler to get to that point. The battle was more strategic than any other that has happened in the anime, included more status and status moves, and included more narrative weight and callbacks than any other too. To check down the list:

-CounterShield
-Paul STEALING Counter Shield
-The ongoing theme of Paul restraining Ash's Pokemon to deny him his love of speed (happened to all 6 of his Pokemon at one point, I think).
-Toxic Spikes, and Ash's way of dealing with them
-Ice Aqua Jet
-Hail/Snow Cloak
-Gliscor using Giga Impact and then getting out of dodge for the recharge turn, like the Scizor he was left with
-Thunder in the ground


It was one of the smartest and most narratively satisfying battles the show has ever had - rewarding people for paying attention and watching the entire Sinnoh saga by using stuff like Ice Aqua Jet - before you even get into Blaze, and then that whole conclusion was directed and executed in a much more satisfying way than any other battle.

Oh and lastly, the complaint about Paul's team totally misunderstands his character. Paul using the same team again would have been absolutely out of character for him - Paul and even Reggie repeatedly questioned Ash for using the same team again and again. The idea that he used 'weak Pokemon' is so, so laughable.

XY's superior animation threatens it, maybe, but nothing that came before Ash/Paul is close.

Paul needed to be absolutely crushed by Ash. His methods needed to be totally denied, but instead they were treated as equally valid despite the fact that they strayed into outright abuse in the cases of Azumarill and Chimchar, and likely others that we never saw. His Gastrodon's Counter Shield had GLARING holes (this is a general problem I have with Counter Shield. Sure, Chimchar's may have been good, but the rest were barely covering their respective Pokemon [EDIT: Fantina's Drifblim and the aforementioned Gastrodon's being the worst examples]. Ironically, it also goes against that one Johto episode with the Hitmontop trainer doing essentially the same thing and being criticized for it.) Using the same team would be out of character, because he shows up with 3 new Pokemon every time they fight.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Paul needed to be absolutely crushed by Ash. His methods needed to be totally denied, but instead they were treated as equally valid despite the fact that they strayed into outright abuse in the cases of Azumarill and Chimchar, and likely others that we never saw. His Gastrodon's Counter Shield had GLARING holes (thus is a general problem I have with Coubter Shield. Sure, Chimchar's may have been good, but the rest were bsrely covering their respecrive Pokemon. Ironically, it also goes against that one Johto episode with the Hitmontop trainer doing essentially the same thing and being criticized for it.) Using the same team would be out of character, because he shows up with 3 new Pokemon every time they fight.

"Lysandre needed to be absolutely crushed by Ash."

"Thanos needed to be absolutely crushed by the Avengers. Instead wanting to murder half the universe was presented as equally valid as, like, NOT wanting to do that."

"The Empire needed to be absolutely crushed by the Rebel Alliance."

Etc, etc.

Narrative tension and facing off with a powerful opponent are not the same thing as approving of the villain's methods.

Paul very clearly developed and became less abusive as the saga went on. After discovering that Ash beat Brandon he grew to respect Ash a little, even saving him in the episode Monferno evolved, and notably he stopped cursing his Pokemon when he returned them to their ball. He was silent, then when Vire fainted he actually praised it. He changed, and visibly developed, and lost to a guy whose training methods he previously considered beneath him.

I'm sorry if you wanted what essentially amounts to revenge, and vicious catharsis, but developing Paul and sanding off his edges while not turning him into an Ash clone was narratively richer.

 

[DatsRight]

I do think the show sometimes struggles dealing with antagonists they can't either blast off or have fully turn good, thus it feels like they sometimes get off without a proper comeuppance, eg. Harley in AG, or Faba in the AF arc.

Giving them a curb stomp is kind of a cheap way around it though, especially since it's also a sneaky way to get out of the heroes putting in a good way of beating them. The show uses curb stomps all the time and after a while you want the heroes to prove they can fight off a true threat.

 

[PokemonKnight]

Most battles in Pokemon, even the big ones, include panning and discussion from the peanut gallery.

If Ash/Paul is "overrated", all of them are. As a Pokemon battle it's the best one. To dispute Ash/Paul's status as the best battle people have to hold it to exceptionally high standards that they don't for other battles. For example, I've seen people complain that it was "too dramatic, now a quick attack from Pikachu is the same as a brick break from Electivire?" when attacks colliding and being equal is such a standard Pokemon trope. It happens like at least once per battle but in Ash/Paul it's used as a stick to beat it with. Has anyone gone back to the Ash/Gary battle (which was only 2 episodes long) and done a specific analysis of how many minutes are spent battling? No, because nobody holds that battle, with its near-mythical status, to as exacting a standard as they hold Ash/Paul. People complain about Torterra being shunned but how many were shunned in the Ash/Gary battle? Bayleef and Arcanine at least. And not only is Ash/Gary shorter, a lot of the battles there ended in one hit. This is the great counterexample people bring to deny Ash/Paul's place as the GOAT?

Also, the people ITT are doing a disservice to the sheer narrative weight of that battle. It was not Ash's Infernape vs. Paul's Electivire and the rest was just filler to get to that point. The battle was more strategic than any other that has happened in the anime, included more status and status moves, and included more narrative weight and callbacks than any other too. To check down the list:

-CounterShield
-Paul STEALING Counter Shield
-The ongoing theme of Paul restraining Ash's Pokemon to deny him his love of speed (happened to all 6 of his Pokemon at one point, I think).
-Toxic Spikes, and Ash's way of dealing with them
-Ice Aqua Jet
-Hail/Snow Cloak
-Gliscor using Giga Impact and then getting out of dodge for the recharge turn, like the Scizor he was left with
-Thunder in the ground


It was one of the smartest and most narratively satisfying battles the show has ever had - rewarding people for paying attention and watching the entire Sinnoh saga by using stuff like Ice Aqua Jet - before you even get into Blaze, and then that whole conclusion was directed and executed in a much more satisfying way than any other battle.

Oh and lastly, the complaint about Paul's team totally misunderstands his character. Paul using the same team again would have been absolutely out of character for him - Paul and even Reggie repeatedly questioned Ash for using the same team again and again. The idea that he used 'weak Pokemon' is so, so laughable.

XY's superior animation threatens it, maybe, but nothing that came before Ash/Paul is close.

Well yeah, people criticize and offer commentary especially on hyped up fights. I get it. You are a huge fan of the Ash vs Paul rivalry but people are allowed to critique it.

All the cherished 6 vs 6 fights are in, someway, overrated. Ash vs Drake has been criticized for having Bulbsaur job and Lapras vs Gengar was a quick tie. Ash vs Gary is filled with one hit KOs. Ash vs Sawyer had some debatable outcomes and Ash vs Alain, well, we all know its criticism. People have held other battles to the same high standard.

Says you. I don't think there is such a thing as the best Pokemon battle. It is all opinions.

That is the thing, Ash vs Gary is only two episodes long compared to Ash vs Paul which stretches over three episodes for no reason other than to fit in meaningless commentary and jokes. The battle didn't need five opinions for every action.

Dude, quit with the strawmen. People have been just as critical of Ash vs Gary over the years. The one-hit KOs have aged poorly in an era of complex and lengthy battles. Pikachu-Umbreon being foreshadowed and ultimately ignored. Charizard winning three battles isn't universally liked and rightly so. The match is also hurt by most of the Pokemon present either being rarely seen or never seen before so any emotional connection is lost.

Again, I never called the rest of the battles, "filler." There is some good material but there is also some boring parts.

And would the best Pokemon battle include something like Torterra's shafting? Or something asinine as sacrificing two Pokemon to confirm what you already know (that your opponent is using the same team). I think not.

Sure, the battle has plenty of narrative force. That doesn't mean it was praise worthy or beyond reproach. Besides, it wasted plenty of narrative power and plot threads by Paul not bringing his absent Pokemon that had story-lines and conflict with Ash's Pokemon. It was good but it could have been better and when people assign the moniker of best Pokemon battle ever, expect some push back.

Yeah, the battle had many callbacks to the Sinnoh journey but somehow forgot to bring some of the key Pokemon to the conflict. Frostlass? Who cares? Ninjask? Eh. Where is his Torterra? Or his other Pokemon that played such a pivotal role in the rivalry? They set up for a big narrative payout but instead chose to further pump up Infernape's balloon. Showcasing Ash's growth by having him vanquish Paul's titans would have been much more satisfying.

It is out of character to use the team that you know works against a familiar opponent? It is in-character for Paul to stick with what works. We are at in-pass. Well, the real problem is, Paul had so little character it is an impossible topic to argue. Paul and Reggie were on crack to think going away from the team that owned Ash's Sinnoh team to a different lineup was a good idea and guess what, since Paul lost, myself and others were right.,
Besides, I didn't say the same team since I advocated for the inclusion of Drapion.

Another strawman. I never said Paul used weak Pokemon.

What is the point of discussion if you are just going to twist or flat out misrepresent someone's points?

 

[TheNewGuy]

Well yeah, people criticize and offer commentary especially on hyped up fights. I get it. You are a huge fan of the Ash vs Paul rivalry but people are allowed to critique it.

All the cherished 6 vs 6 fights are in, someway, overrated. Ash vs Drake has been criticized for having Bulbsaur job and Lapras vs Gengar was a quick tie. Ash vs Gary is filled with one hit KOs. Ash vs Sawyer had some debatable outcomes and Ash vs Alain, well, we all know its criticism. People have held other battles to the same high standard.

Says you. I don't think there is such a thing as the best Pokemon battle. It is all opinions.

That is the thing, Ash vs Gary is only two episodes long compared to Ash vs Paul which stretches over three episodes for no reason other than to fit in meaningless commentary and jokes. The battle didn't need five opinions for every action.

Dude, quit with the strawmen. People have been just as critical of Ash vs Gary over the years. The one-hit KOs have aged poorly in an era of complex and lengthy battles. Pikachu-Umbreon being foreshadowed and ultimately ignored. Charizard winning three battles isn't universally liked and rightly so. The match is also hurt by most of the Pokemon present either being rarely seen or never seen before so any emotional connection is lost.

Again, I never called the rest of the battles, "filler." There is some good material but there is also some boring parts.

And would the best Pokemon battle include something like Torterra's shafting? Or something asinine as sacrificing two Pokemon to confirm what you already know (that your opponent is using the same team). I think not.

Sure, the battle has plenty of narrative force. That doesn't mean it was praise worthy or beyond reproach. Besides, it wasted plenty of narrative power and plot threads by Paul not bringing his absent Pokemon that had story-lines and conflict with Ash's Pokemon. It was good but it could have been better and when people assign the moniker of best Pokemon battle ever, expect some push back.

Yeah, the battle had many callbacks to the Sinnoh journey but somehow forgot to bring some of the key Pokemon to the conflict. Frostlass? Who cares? Ninjask? Eh. Where is his Torterra? Or his other Pokemon that played such a pivotal role in the rivalry? They set up for a big narrative payout but instead chose to further pump up Infernape's balloon. Showcasing Ash's growth by having him vanquish Paul's titans would have been much more satisfying.

It is out of character to use the team that you know works against a familiar opponent? It is in-character for Paul to stick with what works. We are at an impasse. Well, the real problem is, Paul had so little character it is an impossible topic to argue. Paul and Reggie were on crack to think going away from the team that owned Ash's Sinnoh team to a different lineup was a good idea and guess what, since Paul lost, myself and others were right.,
Besides, I didn't say the same team since I advocated for the inclusion of Drapion.

Another strawman. I never said Paul used weak Pokemon.

What is the point of discussion if you are just going to twist or flat out misrepresent someone's points?

Because I wasn't directly responding to you. I was talking generally. I didn't misrepresent anybody because I wasn't directly responding to anybody. I was bringing up points for Ash/Paul, against Ash/Gary, and while I did address some of the stuff you brought up, newsflash, the vast majority of the stuff you're saying has been said many times in reference to the battle. People were complaining about the amount of discussion from Dawn etc in 2010. People were complaining about Torterra being shafted in 2010. People were complaining about Paul's strategy in 2010. People were complaining about Paul's team in 2010. People were holding the battle to obscenely high standards in 2010.

That's not to demean your arguments necessarily but a lot of them aren't super new points, so if I addressed stuff you brought up it generally wasn't in direct response, it's because it's stuff I've seen and heard before that you coincidentally also brought to bear here too. I'm not misrepresenting anybody; it was a general picture, an overall weighing of pros and cons.

 

[AuraGuardian448]

So glad mom and Oak were there.

Melmetal! Yes, I knew it was going to happen. It's been obvious and foreshadowed since even way before the league. Pretty weird that Mukoroh was the only Pokemon to not witness Meltan's evolution, though. Everyone else experiencing it was fitting. For his first steel type, this is amazing.

League Final is a 3v3... well how freaking disappointing...

Didn't expect them to start off with Silvally, that was interesting. Glad it was actually phased by Melmetal's attacks rather than being, well, not phased. However, the effective Crush Claw scene was bizarre, considering its a normal move vs a steel type opponent. Hmm, think I can accept Silvally taking two Iron Bashes and a Flash Cannon and still going. Among being generally strong, it's one of Gladio's powerhouses. It's also fair to give Melmetal a pass for its lost (which is super unfortunate and sucks) considering who it was up against. The legendary (even though it isn't treated as one in anime from what I remember) beating the mythical is fair enough. The 3v3 concept is also a troublesome factor, as i'm positive Melmetal would have took a victory if the fight was a 5v5 or 6v6. Overall, it still had some highlights and milestones like not only enduring a type disadvantage Multi-Attack but also receiving praise from Gladio (twice, even). Eh, I actually hate to bring this one up, but it cannot be ignored... Satoshi didn't recognize Melmetal being exhausted (something he's received development and criticism for before from elder trainers), which is a trainer flaw on his part :\

Pikachu vs Silvally. Here we go yet again with a Pokemon being able to outspeed and dodge Pikachu's quick attack tricks and attacks with their mere base speed, like Lucario, Minccino, etc, etc. It demeans Pikachu's general experience and development with speed everytime they do this. This is the one stat Pikachu is suppose to be advantage in because of its size; it sure as hell doesn't excel in endurance, unlike say Satoshi's Charizard. Like I said before, it's fine if they can match Pikachu's base speed, but these constant dealings with QA with their base speed as if Pikachu isn't even moderately fast and then even faster due to the use of QA on top of its base speed, is stupid... all things considered. (I can deal with inconsistent endurance, but I do not like the way they handle superior speed differences with opponents against Pikachu. A least here the opponent is Silvally of all Pokemon. But tbh, they'd probably do the same for Gladio's Lugauran -_-.) At this point, just ditch QA and give Pikachu Slam, Double Kick (Agility back if it changes anything), or something. No, I don't expect Pikachu to always get away with QA tactics, it's just the way they've been handling it is not really well done, generally anyway. That's really all I felt like mentioning outside the clever use of Electro Web by Satoshi, which powered the force of Iron Tail. Definitely expected Pikachu to win against Silvally, considering its competence and Lugauran needing all its strength to have a chance against its counterpart.

Pikachu vs Zoroark. Looking forward to this full fight. Love Zoroark, and it should have had a league fight two generations/series ago! Wait... I just realized Gladio's whole team consist of some of my absolute favorite Pokemon, even though his Lugauran is not in the preferred form. (Also, R.I.P. Umbreon.)

Animation better skyrocket during the final half, seriously, for an actual longer time than the brief instance it did during Marowak vs Lycanroc, too.

Almost forgot, lastly, going by the plot and Gladio's entire character arc (in which you can also paint him distracted), Satoshi should actually defeat him next episode. Gladio doesn't desire becoming champion nor being the strongest. His story/path is solely to and fixed on finding his missing father. No amount of training they show or strong Pokemon he attain will ever justify him defeating Satoshi. Even Kotetsu's victory over Satoshi back at the Unova League would be far better in comparison, because his goal was actually to become a Pokemon Champion himself.

 

[LilligantLewis]

I'm glad Delia came as I was worried Ash would win his first league without his mom there. Btw another reason why I'm glad he lost Kalos. I think it's cool that in this battle, they're showing the VS screen after every Pokémon. Great knockout for Pikachu. The third legendary Pokémon Pikachu's ever knocked out following Regice and Latios. Knew it was Zoroark as soon as Night Daze was used. I saw some other people upthread saying they didn't know until Ash knew.

In Kalos, there was a reason why the battles were skipped: It was implied he stomped all of his opponents. He and Alain weren’t just competent (like Ash was in Sinnoh), they were basically the Tobias of this league. Why waste time on a battle which we know will end 3-0 due to Greninja one shotting everything?

We got 2 of the greatest battles in the anime and a good 3v3 between Sawyer and Tierno.

If we had to get one 3on3, why not Ash vs. Astrid? First of all, let me clarify that I have nothing against Sawyer vs. Tierno, in fact in a recent thread I started on "Anime Polls" I voted it as the best rival vs. rival battle in league history. However, what I am saying is, if the time constraints for some reason forced this league to be so short (only 7 episodes, tied for the shortest league except Unova (5 episodes) which everyone agrees is the worst league so I see no reason to mention it) (remind me again though why exactly we had 3 whole weeks between new episodes between XY&Z43 and XY&Z44?? not exactly sure that time constraints were a real thing here; seems more artificial or made up to me), and it caused us to only have time for one 3on3, then it should have been an Ash battle ESPECIALLY when the final move of that battle was Hawlucha casually beating a Mega Absol, and correct me if I'm wrong but that was the first time any of Ash's Pokémon had beaten a Mega besides Pikachu, so it should not have been treated so casually. Not to mention that it was also revenge for the movie, even though the movies aren't a core part of the franchise anymore, and I'm not saying that everyone has to have seen the movie to understand every episode, it would have been a nice treat for those who had seen the movie to get a full Ash vs. Astrid (full meaning 3on3 not 6on6, full just meaning "fully shown") battle here in which he gets revenge for the movie.

I will agree with you for the most part that Ash steamrolled everyone and those battles didn't need to be shown, but he definitely did not steamroll Astrid, and it should have been fully shown, and even just adding that one more battle would have made it feel more like a league and less like "ok here are two battles". It should have been shown instead of Sawyer vs. Tierno, or, more preferably, the league should have been expanded to 8 episodes, and both of those quarterfinals should have been shown.

Instead, we got 4 very good episodes with the semi final and the final, which is better in my opinion.

It's possible to have 4 episodes of Ash's full battles, and still have other Ash battles shown.

Johto League: 4 episodes spent on Gary and Harrison, but the 3 previous episodes also show Ash's battles, for a total of 7 episodes of Ash battles, with still 4 episodes spent on Ash's full battles.

Hoenn League: 4 episodes spent on Katie, Morrison, and Tyson, but the 2 previous episodes also show Ash's battles, for a total of 6 episodes of Ash battles, with still 4 episodes spent on Ash's full battles.

Sinnoh League: 4 episodes spent on Paul and Tobias, but 2 other episodes (Nando and Conway) also show Ash's battles, for a total of 6 episodes of Ash battles, with still 4 episodes spent on Ash's full battles.

Even the Unova League, a pure **** league that was only 5 episodes long (bc I'm not counting the Axew filler), still managed to show 5 episodes of Ash battling.

So, it's literally a fact that with the Kalos League only showing 4 episodes of Ash battling, it has the fewest Ash battle episodes of any league, which is unacceptable.

Furthermore, the league wasn’t rushed, it was the same length the other leagues - where Ash lost in the last 8 or 4 - were

Let's see

Johto League - 8 episodes
Hoenn League - 7 episodes (you're correct here)
Sinnoh League - 8 episodes

The only way I can see you making this claim is if you don't count episodes like OS265 or DP182 as part of the league.

But you know what episodes like those episodes do? They make the league feel like an EVENT. By having an episode that focuses on the excitement of finally reaching the league location, reuniting with all the characters you've seen throughout the generation, sometimes in the earlier leagues even an opening ceremony, Mr. Goodshow, etc., it feels like a grand kickoff episode of an epic arc. Just because it doesn't contain any battles doesn't make it not a part of the league arc, if anything, I would actually say by separating out such an episode from the first battle episode, it has the right pace instead of feeling rushed. Feeling rushed at this crucial part of the league is exactly what both Unova and Kalos did by shoving in: arrival to the league location, reuniting with rivals, the matchups being announced, and the first battles (and in Kalos's case even worse, the Furfrou trainer) ALL into ONE episode?! All of the stuff I just listed off should at least be separated into two episodes, which is what Kanto through Sinnoh did, which made them not rushed, and which does not eliminate those opening episodes from being counted as league episodes.

Alola even had two such episodes, first in SM127 Professor Kukui dedicates the brand new Manalo Stadium and announces the Masked Royal exhibition, then in SM128 the actual opening ceremony happens. This felt not rushed at all and felt like LEAGUE.

Also love Lana being mesmerised by Melmetal when its revealed in the match.

Also, Lana's muscle fetish returns!

I have to admit to y'all that whenever this happens I feel fairly uncomfortable about it lol

There‘s a reason why the quantity over quality approach in Hoenn and Alola aren’t very popular, while everyone still talks about the Paul or Alain battles.

Everyone still talks about the Paul battle, I'll give you that, but like I mentioned above I was fine with the Sinnoh League. Everyone talks about the Alain battle for all the wrong reasons. Hoenn and Alola are two of my favorite leagues, so, I guess we'll just have to disagree here.

Everyone still talks about the Alain battle because of how forced it was. It had good animation but terrible storyline for many reasons.

Thank you! Just as I was typing the above I saw your post.

since we didn’t see Delia’s interacting to Torracat, this is objectively the worst League episode.

omg you just made me literally laugh out loud at my desk

Agreed. The XY league was structured incredibly well.

I don't want to waste my time mostly rehashing what I said above to @GLTSRY, but what I will say here is that in many ways, even though i was unhappy at the time, I am SO GLAD now that Ash ended up losing the Kalos League. After waiting for him to win a league for 19 years, it would have felt so weird for the one he won to just be 2 battles. On the other hand, this one feels real, a massive 18-episode arc, more than double the length of any previous league. I remember when I made similar complaints about the Kalos League's rushedness 3 years ago (before we knew he would lose), I talked about how it should have been at least 10 episodes, and people made fun of me saying that the anime would never allow that. Well here you go, from the dedication of Manalo Stadium and the announcement of the Masked Royal exhibition (SM127) to the Tapu Koko battle (SM144) it's an EPIC 18-EPISODE LEAGUE THAT SHOWS HOW LEAGUES SHOULD BE DONE.

I've illustrated this again and I'll CTRL+C my argument here.

All previous leagues have true meaning and significance. It's shown in the Froufrou episode in XY. There, the Froufrou trainer couldn't participate in the league because he didn't have the 8 gym battles that all previous leagues have required. He and many others, couldn't join in what is considered the ultimate honor because they simply weren't good enough. He lost to XY Ash because he wasn't on his level.

There, the league meant something. It's something only the best of the best should be able to participate in. Those gym badges had value that the Grand Trials don't. Previous leagues have had value because of those gym badges.

The league isn’t something Bug Catcher Joe should be able to participate in. It’s an honor that a lot of trainers put blood, sweat, and tears in trying to obtain. Everyone saw how much it mattered to that Furfrou trainer and by extension, that’s everyone whose failed at obtaining all those gym badges. So Alola is basically spitting in the face of the trainers who did put in that effort, those hours of continuously working and improving their skills in favor of convenience and is rewarding people like the Froufrou trainer who simply aren't on the level of trainers like Ash.

Dude, they just took what they got from the games. It's not their fault GF decided to replace badges with the Island Challenge this generation. Just be happy that Ash's opponent in the final also completed the island challenge. If you're someone who likes Kalos's league, then all you really care about is one or two battles right?

build-up is 100% an important part of a league

What build up? In previous leagues, the beginning of the second episode of the league would be where the first battle would finally start. In the Kalos League, the beginning of the second episode of the league had me rewinding my TV to double-check if I just heard correctly that Ash was already in the semifinals? Talk about all rush and no build-up.

That scene of Gladion training with Lillie+Lusamine joining him was cute.

The fact that Zoroark wasn't in this scene was perfect as it still let fans who forgot about Zoroark (as it's been so many episodes) still be surprised at the end of the episode.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

I care more about Ash battling than some screwed established trainer who will get screwed, which is what this league liked to do way too much than the Kalos League did (because it was running out of time, but still, they had the time to develop more people before they realized they were running out of episodes). Why would I care about the other students that aren't Ash or Kiawe? Lillie didn't even evolve her Vulpix...or even bothered to train hard like the guys did.

 

[LilligantLewis]

I care more about Ash battling than some screwed established trainer who will get screwed, which is what this league liked to do way too much than the Kalos League did (because it was running out of time, but still, they had the time to develop more people before they realized they were running out of episodes). Why would I care about the other students that aren't Ash or Kiawe? Lillie didn't even evolve her Vulpix...or even bothered to train hard like the guys did.

This league had more Ash battles than the Kalos league.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

This league had more Ash battles than the Kalos league.

Yes, but half of them were bad.

I don't count the battle royal, the first "real" battle was a joke battle against Faba, and the Hau battle lasted a good while for over an episode as a one-on-one. Not even the Sawyer battle induced fatigue that long because it did use a full team.