The Future of the World Championships

[Sham]

I think the Paul episode will develop Ash somehow for the M8. But how or what?

I don’t even think there is a point in Ash battling him at this point. Ash will cream him and if he doesn’t then there is some explaining warranted.

It’ll also be adding salt onto the wound for the people who think Alain stole his spot.

Hopefully it’s something like Serena’s return where he’s simply just offering advice/updating Ash on his journey and travels.

 

[Almighty Zard]

I don’t even think there is a point in Ash battling him at this point. Ash will cream him and if he doesn’t then there is some explaining warranted.

It’ll also be adding salt onto the wound for the people who think Alain stole his spot.

Hopefully it’s something like Serena’s return where he’s simply just offering advice/updating Ash on his journey and travels.

Brock once said the two couldn't ignore each other if they tried, so them not fighting when they cross paths would be out of character.

also are you and @Shadao going to ignore my last post?

 

[Bendicion]

Does anybody know when the M8 will happen?

 

[Almighty Zard]

Does anybody know when the M8 will happen?

no, we've gotta wait.

 

[Dragonsoldier77]

The only plot hole, though is that people at PWC (Volkner and the Match referee) know about Z-moves. If you know what a Z-move is you should know what Alola is and by proxy know they have established a League which Ash won.

I don't get why it is so hard to Call Ash Alola Champion.

On early Pokemon Ash had no problem in mentioning he made top 16 in the Indigo League but now he has problem in calling himself Alola Champion which he won fair and squere?

Eh if you want to look at it negatively it could be that they know about alola and the going ons there, but that the alola league just isn’t recognized officially everywhere else.

Or it’s the writers not really putting any thought into it as usual. Which is probably the most likely reason. Trying to justify the bad writing with in-universe reasoning just isn’t worth it most of the time.

 

[Shadao]

@Shadao @Sham

I really don't want to do this because of the risk it brings, but it's not so much about Ash just beating Alain that people care about, it's him using Greninja to do it.

But considering we have no indicator on how the problem with the vines is going or if Greninja's even closer to being done, it might not be able to show up for the rematch, it doesn't help that only it knows where these vines will appear either so i don't think it can afford to leave until they purged completely.

I've seen quite a few people already saying that Alain shouldn't even be involved if Greninja's not going to get it's revenge for the kalos league defeat

But Sham you make a good point, the people who got cheated were those who fell into the writers hype trap, Greninja lost fair and square.

Besides if they are only allowed to use 1 gimmick in each MC fight, I would think using Mega Evolution against Alain would make the most sense, but i get the feeling these people I speak of aren't going to like that idea very much.

Is it any more different from Ash using his Sinnoh team at Lake Acuity to battle against Paul in the Sinnoh League? Or Ash using his Journeys team all the way to the Master 8?

With Ash declaring that he would not simply fight Leon but beat him, I'm speculating that he may have to bring in the reserves.

Because if you're going to win and be the best, you must use everything at your disposal.

I mean, two Pokémon on Ash's team are Part-Dragon, two are Fighting-Types, one is a Ghost/Poison Type, and one is Electric-Type. Half of Ash's team is weak to Fairy-Type and almost half are weak to Psychic Type. And given that Leon is infamous for switching his moves for his Pokémon, predictability can be a trainer's downfall.

And I suspect that Paul is there to deliver that message to Ash.

Mega Lucario is great and all, but that Mega Charizard X has a nasty Blast Burn that dealt a great ton of damage to Greninja. And Lucario is part-Steel type.

 

[Almighty Zard]

Is it any more different from Ash using his Sinnoh team at Lake Acuity to battle against Paul in the Sinnoh League? Or Ash using his Journeys team all the way to the Master 8?

With Ash declaring that he would not simply fight Leon but beat him, I'm speculating that he may have to bring in the reserves.

Because if you're going to win and be the best, you must use everything at your disposal.

I mean, two Pokémon on Ash's team are Part-Dragon, two are Fighting-Types, one is a Ghost/Poison Type, and one is Electric-Type. Half of Ash's team is weak to Fairy-Type and almost half are weak to Psychic Type. And given that Leon is infamous for switching his moves for his Pokémon, predictability can be a trainer's downfall.

And I suspect that Paul is there to deliver that message to Ash.

Mega Lucario is great and all, but that Mega Charizard X has a nasty Blast Burn that dealt a great ton of damage to Greninja. And Lucario is part-Steel type.

It's not just about the possibility of Ash using his reserves here.

The moment it was revealed Alain was part of the masters 8, people started to fully expect Ash to fight him with Greninja, claiming that there is no other reason for him to be here if Ash does not fight and beat his Charizard with Greninja specifically.

But like I said, Greninja's still dealing with those vines in Kalos, and no indication was given on if it's any closer to purging the region of them, can it really afford to leave just for the sake of fandom driven revenge? Especially since only it knows where those vines appear.

And yeah I get that blast burn is powerful, guess what Lucario is too, even more so when it goes mega, look at how many moves Bea struck it with and it didn't go down. The writers don't always play around types anyway, or do i need remind that AG nuked Sawyer's Mega Sceptile with Water shuriken which it quad resists.

Any reserve that Ash has access to at oak's lab or Kakui's place, I can see them showing up, but Greninja's a little harder to see because it's got something to do, and the risk of putting kalos in jeopardy just to come back for one match is selfish thinking imo.

 

[Lord Godwin]

It's not just about the possibility of Ash using his reserves here.

The moment it was revealed Alain was part of the masters 8, people started to fully expect Ash to fight him with Greninja, claiming that there is no other reason for him to be here if Ash does not fight and beat his Charizard with Greninja specifically.

But like I said, Greninja's still dealing with those vines in Kalos, and no indication was given on if it's any closer to purging the region of them, can it really afford to leave just for the sake of fandom driven revenge? Especially since only it knows where those vines appear.

And yeah I get that blast burn is powerful, guess what Lucario is too, even more so when it goes mega. The writers don't always play around types anyway, or do i need remind that AG nuked Sawyer's Mega Sceptile with Water shuriken which it quad resists.

Any reserve that Ash has access to at oak's lab or Kakui's place, I can see them showing up, but Greninja's a little harder to see because it's got something to do, and the risk of putting kalos in jeopardy just to come back for one match is selfish thinking imo.

If there only was a Green Powerful Legendary which can do it instead...

 

[Almighty Zard]

If there only was a Green Powerful Legendary which can do it instead...

which can't sense where the vines are going to appear, only Greninja can, if they had given an indicator on how Greninja's progress was going it'd be one thing, but the fact is that they didn't, and i don't think it can afford to leave them un attended.

 

[Shadao]

It's not just about the possibility of Ash using his reserves here.

The moment it was revealed Alain was part of the masters 8, people started to fully expect Ash to fight him with Greninja, claiming that there is no other reason for him to be here if Ash does not fight and beat his Charizard with Greninja specifically.

But like I said, Greninja's still dealing with those vines in Kalos, and no indication was given on if it's any closer to purging the region of them, can it really afford to leave just for the sake of fandom driven revenge? Especially since only it knows where those vines appear.

And yeah I get that blast burn is powerful, guess what Lucario is too, even more so when it goes mega. The writers don't always play around types anyway, or do i need remind that AG nuked Sawyer's Mega Sceptile with Water shuriken which it quad resists.

Any reserve that Ash has access to at oak's lab or Kakui's place, I can see them showing up, but Greninja's a little harder to see because it's got something to do, and the risk of putting kalos in jeopardy just to come back for one match is selfish thinking imo.

You really think the vines are based on some natural phenomena that has its own schedule? Aaahhh, this is the same universe where a baby is born and is about 3 months old (in addition to 9 months of pregnancy) and yet Ash is still 10 years old.

I'll tell you this. The vine crisis ends when the writers say so. Who knows? Maybe Greninja is on the very last remanent of the vines. It has been, what, 6 years? I mean, I expected Charizard to remain in that Charrific Valley forever, but apparently it got enough training to move into Oak's permanently after BW.

It's on the whims of the writer's pen. And if they decide it's time to bring back Greninja, they will do it. I mean, Squirtle could easy take time off from the Firefighting Department just so it can battle again with Ash. Or Goodra leaving behind the Marshlands just to have a battle in the League.

 

[Almighty Zard]

You really think the vines are based on some natural phenomena that has its own schedule? Aaahhh, this is the same universe where a baby is born and is about 3 months old (in addition to 9 months of pregnancy) and yet Ash is still 10 years old.

I'll tell you this. The vine crisis ends when the writers say so. Who knows? Maybe Greninja is on the very last remanent of the vines. It has been, what, 6 years? I mean, I expected Charizard to remain in that Charrific Valley forever, but apparently it got enough training to move into Oak's permanently after BW.

It's on the whims of the writer's pen. And if they decide it's time to bring back Greninja, they will do it. I mean, Squirtle could easy take time off from the Firefighting Department just so it can battle again with Ash. Or Goodra leaving behind the Marshlands just to have a battle in the League.

not saying that it could take forever, but not giving us an indication of how much closer it is to it's job being done doesn't say much in a good way for the current period of time.

So let me ask this then if Ash battles Alain, does Greninja absolutely have to be a part of that fight?

 

[Deleted member 384931]

When are Misty, Lillie, and Cilan coming back? Its taking too long

Lillie in the Aloloan episode, Cilan at the M8 and Misty maybe with Koharu? Idk honestly

 

[Sham]

no, we've gotta wait.

Basically agreed with everything you said. Ash Greninja lost in a fair way but it does seem like Greninja will be returning possibly in his match with Alain so there’s that. He did make a cameo in the recent episode.

About the Paul thing…. personally people took Cynthia’s words a bit far in terms of her prediction even like…. “Paul and Ash fighting in the Championship league”. She just made a prediction about it tbh. Same thing with this. If Paul and Ash do battle, Paul will be jobbed just like every other character. Don’t really care if it happens but it seems kinda pointless unless it’s like Clemont and a sparring match.

 

[Deleted member 384931]

Paul is nice and such, but or they will F up their rivalry from Sinnoh or they will F up Paul by making him "nice and friendly like everyone in Journeys".

 

[Sham]

Paul is nice and such, but or they will F up their rivalry from Sinnoh or they will F up Paul by making him "nice and friendly like everyone in Journeys".

Agreed. Something I’ve been noticing is them “softening” characters. Lusamine, Gladion and Nanu very clearly have different personalities in the games but they are portrayed more “passive” in the anime.

Hopefully they don’t chance Paul into an overly nice character. It’s possible being respectful and kind while also not over doing it.

 

[Shadao]

not saying that it could take forever, but not giving us an indication of how much closer it is to it's job being done doesn't say much for the current period of time.

So let me ask this then if Ash battles Alain, but Greninja is not involved, how will you feel?

It's like asking what if Gladion won the Alola League instead of Ash. Oh yes, it's a possibility but not narratively satisfying. None of Ash's team except Pikachu know just how important Alain is for Ash to beat. He's unbeatable because of that Mega Charizard X. That's the one Pokémon that Ash has never beaten, and only Greninja knows just how powerful that beast is.

You cannot have a battle with Alain without Greninja being somehow involved. Lucario beating Mega Charizard X would require additional training plus a few life lessons from Greninja to be narratively satisfying. If Greninja cannot personally fight, he must pass down his teachings to another Pokémon to do it for him.

But honestly, I really don't like this idea of "We must avoid Greninja vs Charizard rematch at all cost" just because Ash-Greninja didn't beat Mega Charizard X in the League. As I've said before, when given the chance to fight the undefeated rival, it is natural for the audience to root for a rematch with the key members at play. I know I want to see Dawn fight Zoey again, if only to show that yes, she can surpass her rival.

Basically agreed with everything you said. Ash Greninja lost in a fair way but it does seem like Greninja will be returning possibly in his match with Alain so there’s that. He did make a cameo in the last episode so the writers haven’t forgotten him.

About Paul thing personally people took Cynthia words a bit far in terms of her prediction even like “Paul and Ash fighting in the Championship league”, she just made a prediction tbh. Same with this, if Paul and Ash do battle Paul will be jobbed just like every other character. I don’t really care but it seems kinda pointless unless it’s like Clemont and a sparring match

I say that the writing was on the wall the moment Ash defeated Paul. When that happened, Ash surpasses his rival and then went out with a bang against Tobias. Prior to that League battle, there was an equal chance to both would enter the Championship League because both were on equal footing. But after Ash beats Paul? The only way for Paul to regain footing as Ash's equal is to show how he has changed after his defeat while still remaining true to his character.

Iris, after all, had no chance to get into the Master 8 unless she had an episode showing how she has changed from BW. That Iris episode was important to the story because it would otherwise be jarring to see her, a Dragon trainer who has struggled with an angry Dragonite and a baby Axew, be in the Top 8 as a Champion. Since we know that Iris has actually trained Axew into a fighting beast Haxorus and actually tamed Dragonite, we know that yes, she has been keeping up with Ash's growing strength (especially since Ash has been getting a lot of Dragon types lately).

But Paul? We see nothing of him becoming stronger or wiser. We don't know how or if he changed. Thus, we default back to how we last saw him in the Sinnoh League in DP, so naturally we use that to compare it to Ash of today and... yeah, Paul stands no chance against XY, SM or Journeys Ash. Ash has grown too powerful for him and the only way to remedy that is Paul having his own dedicated episode to update us on his skills.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

If Ash fights Alain first, he won already.

 

[Sham]

It's like asking what if Gladion won the Alola League instead of Ash. Oh yes, it's a possibility but not narratively satisfying. None of Ash's team except Pikachu know just how important Alain is for Ash to beat. He's unbeatable because of that Mega Charizard X. That's the one Pokémon that Ash has never beaten, and only Greninja knows just how powerful that beast is.

You cannot have a battle with Alain without Greninja being somehow involved. Lucario beating Mega Charizard X would require additional training plus a few life lessons from Greninja to be narratively satisfying. If Greninja cannot personally fight, he must pass down his teachings to another Pokémon to do it for him.

But honestly, I really don't like this idea of "We must avoid Greninja vs Charizard rematch at all cost" just because Ash-Greninja didn't beat Mega Charizard X in the League. As I've said before, when given the chance to fight the undefeated rival, it is natural for the audience to root for a rematch with the key members at play. I know I want to see Dawn fight Zoey again, if only to show that yes, she can surpass her rival.



I say that the writing was on the wall the moment Ash defeated Paul. When that happened, Ash surpasses his rival and then went out with a bang against Tobias. Prior to that League battle, there was an equal chance to both would enter the Championship League because both were on equal footing. But after Ash beats Paul? The only way for Paul to regain footing as Ash's equal is to show how he has changed after his defeat while still remaining true to his character.

Iris, after all, had no chance to get into the Master 8 unless she had an episode showing how she has changed from BW. That Iris episode was important to the story because it would otherwise be jarring to see her, a Dragon trainer who has struggled with an angry Dragonite and a baby Axew, be in the Top 8 as a Champion. Since we know that Iris has actually trained Axew into a fighting beast Haxorus and actually tamed Dragonite, we know that yes, she has been keeping up with Ash's growing strength (especially since Ash has been getting a lot of Dragon types lately).

But Paul? We see nothing of him becoming stronger or wiser. We don't know how or if he changed. Thus, we default back to how we last saw him in the Sinnoh League in DP, so naturally we use that to compare it to Ash of today and... yeah, Paul stands no chance against XY, SM or Journeys Ash. Ash has grown too powerful for him and the only way to remedy that is Paul having his own dedicated episode to update us on his skills.

You’re making me excited to see them fight together. I’m so proud of Axew…ahem Haxorus *crying* emoji.

But yeah you brought up some great points. That was my whole issue with Paul being included in PWC. I’m not saying he shouldn’t be there but saying that he should only be there because Ash is (well to be more accurate “he’s always been on Ash’s level”) when it’s comparing him to a more inferior Ash (now that is) is a huge fallacy. If he got an established episode prior displaying what he’s been up to then I’d have no issue and welcome him.

He’s only ever badly creamed Ash but that’s about it. Any other major battle/leagues he’s lost in. I already knew he wouldn’t be included in the PWC even if the characters I wanted to be in there wasn’t.

Even Alain doesn’t fit in this category. Despite Alain also not having an established episode, we’ve seen him keep up with Steven and defeat an Elite Four member. Paul barely touched Cynthia (which is fair) and couldn’t even take a single Pokémon down from Brandon. Alain defeated Melva.

 

[Almighty Zard]

It's like asking what if Gladion won the Alola League instead of Ash. Oh yes, it's a possibility but not narratively satisfying. None of Ash's team except Pikachu know just how important Alain is for Ash to beat. He's unbeatable because of that Mega Charizard X. That's the one Pokémon that Ash has never beaten, and only Greninja knows just how powerful that beast is.

You cannot have a battle with Alain without Greninja being somehow involved. Lucario beating Mega Charizard X would require additional training plus a few life lessons from Greninja to be narratively satisfying. If Greninja cannot personally fight, he must pass down his teachings to another Pokémon to do it for him.

Greninja taught Lucario how to control it's aura better, and would you look at the results, it created a spirit bomb without mega evolving, imagine how strong it could be if it mega evolved and did that.

Heck Lucario's synchronization is higher than Greninja's was since it's was only with Ash, but Lucario's is with Ash and the journeys team as a whole, and even Greninja as well.

As I've said before, when given the chance to fight the undefeated rival, it is natural for the audience to root for a rematch with the key members at play. I know I want to see Dawn fight Zoey again, if only to show that yes, she can surpass her rival.

So Dawn would have to use Togekiss and Piplup to beat Zoey's glameow and gallade specifically for it to matter? not sure if i agree with that way of thinking.

 

[Maxim]

My predictions for the final matches (considering that it's a Tournament format, though I still have a little hope for Round-Robin format).

Quarterfinals:
Ash vs. Iris - Ash wins
Alain vs. Steven - Alain wins
Leon vs. Lance - Leon wins
Cynthia vs. Diantha - Cynthia wins

Semifinals:
Ash vs. Alain - Ash wins
Leon vs. Cynthia - Leon wins

Final:
Ash vs. Leon - may be either, depending on the writers' plans for the future. My heart says "Ash" (partly because I want the new anime series to finally end Ash's story. Also, I believe that Goh might have been introduced to see how popular a non-Ash protagonist could be) but my brain says "Leon".

I know that these matchups are boring as hell, this is why I predict them to be real. Journeys writers seem to hate Lance, I can totally see him getting smeared by Leon's Charmanderino once again.
I think that Ash's opponents are pretty much set in stone. Iris, Alain and Leon, who will definitely be the final match.
Iris is Iris - they didn't bring her here to make her stand in the background. Alain is here essentially to get beaten by Ash - rematch for the long-remembered Kalos League Final, so this one is obvious. Leon is even more obvious - the entire Journeys lead up to his final match with Ash.
As for the other Trainers, they're here mostly for flavor. They're just NPC Champions from previous regions and don't have much business to do with Ash. They are here because they are implied to be the world's strongest Trainers in the games, so they are obvious choices for such an ultimate challenge. But I doubt any of them will battle Ash, unless it's a round-robin.

Of course, my predictions for non-Ash matchups are debatable. It can be Alain vs. Diantha, Cynthia vs. Lance (if they don't want to make yet another Leon/Lance battle), Leon vs. Steven, for example. But as for Ash's opponents, they seem to be decided, I don't see other possibilities.
Also, I don't understand why everyone and their aunt predict Ash to battle Cynthia. Because she's popular? Yes she is, that's why she's here in the first place. But she's not the main dish here. Because of BDSP? The writers have already done their quota of new game advertising with those (outrageously awful) Arceus specials and the Dialga/Palkia two-parter. They don't seem to care about this too much, either.

Those were predictions, dictated by common sense (they're not preferences or hopes - actually, I'd prefer Ash NOT to battle Iris). But if I could state my wishes, I'd want Ash to battle Lance. Firstly because it's never happened in the past, secondly because I'd like to see what Pokemon they'd give him aside from Gyarados and Dragonite, especially if it's a Full Battle (though I'm pretty sure it'll be all 3-on-3 battles, maybe except the Final Battle, but I'm not sure about this either). Of course this is not happening in Tournament format, because of the above mentioned reasons, but maybe we'll at least catch a glimpse of Lance's other Pokemon in some quick montage of non-Ash Tournament Battles (or at least on the results screen). Generally, I'm hoping to see some previously-unseen Pokemon for all those Trainers, not just their aces. Another thing I'd love to see is Porygon-Z in Cynthia's posession. Don't count on a big appearance, it can be just a short scene of it beating (or getting beaten by) its opposing Pokemon. But I'd love Journeys to acknowledge Porygon-Z's existence, especially since Journeys has done so many things that previous series neglected to do (e.g. giving Ash Mega Evolution, showing some previously-unseen locations and characters, showing a proper PokeMart with the clerk etc.). But those are wishes, not predictions. I doubt either will happen.