The "genwunner" situation

[Adrexus]

"I thought [Pokemon XY] was cancer. [Fans of the newer Pokémon games] are a lowly inferior type of fan that shouldn't exist."

Sounds familiar?

The problem with gen 1 purists or just assholes in general isn't their opinion, but their attitude towards others for thinking otherwise. Basically the same kind of attitude that you're exhibiting. Be respectful.

X/Y had some of the best mechanical changes, but one of the worst play through experiences.

In general though, I don't really run into that many genwunners. They seem pretty far flung to me. I don't even know why people worry about them as much as they do. It seems that ignoring them would be the wise thing to do.

 

[Zold]

Most of the genwunners have a really limited knowledge about Pokemon in general. As usual, silly opinions sprout due to a lack of knowledge. I have yet to encounter a genwunner who actually knows his stuff.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

I once saw this comment thread on YouTube being a dispute between people who were essentially genwunners and people fighting back. Both sides were severely misunderstanding what the other said. This kind of war and misunderstanding is why it's a problem. Neither side knows exactly what they're accusing the other for doing.

Here's how I interpret the meaning: when a fan of the first generation of Pokemon games forces their opinion onto others and refuses to try any of the new games because they "know it'll never live up to the older games".

This definition can be seen through two sets of quotes, each one in the two sets growing increasingly more "Genwunner"like:

1: I only like Gen 1 Pokemon designs.
Ok, good for you, that is a perfectly fine statement, you're free to go, it's your opinion.
2: I can't see why anyone would like the Pokemon designs out of Gen 1.
This is dissing other people's opinions, but due to how indirect and subtle it is it can be considered fine.
3: Game Freak ran out of ideas. How they still gain an audience with new games baffles me.
That's a bit more forceful, and you're dissing people who spent at least a year working on those designs, and you're dissing opinions again. This is more severe and is where you might have a Genwunner on your hands.
4: How can you like <Pokemon>? It's awful and could never beat out the original 151.
Genwunner alert. Forcing opinions harshly, refusing to see any faults with their argument, personally attacking whoever they are talking to. All you need.

1: I'm not a big fan of the new games.
Staying your opinion, that's cool. That's alright. You're not forcing it.
2: How do the new games even get audiences?
Like before, it's more forceful, but very subtle.
3: Why make more games when you have the originals?
Woah, slow down there a bit. Are you sure there is nothing wrong with any of those designs? Also, opinion forcing, and it's less subtle.
4: How can you not see that the newer games are so much more terrible than what I used to play back when I was a kid?
This is maximum Genwunner output. Forcing opinions, doing a personal attack, not seeing anything wrong with what they grew up with, so on.

Thing is, people fail to make the distinguishment between each stage, and that is how flame wars start.

 

[SBaby]

I once saw this comment thread on YouTube being a dispute between people who were essentially genwunners and people fighting back. Both sides were severely misunderstanding what the other said. This kind of war and misunderstanding is why it's a problem. Neither side knows exactly what they're accusing the other for doing.

Here's how I interpret the meaning: when a fan of the first generation of Pokemon games forces their opinion onto others and refuses to try any of the new games because they "know it'll never live up to the older games".

This definition can be seen through two sets of quotes, each one in the two sets growing increasingly more "Genwunner"like:

1: I only like Gen 1 Pokemon designs.
Ok, good for you, that is a perfectly fine statement, you're free to go, it's your opinion.
2: I can't see why anyone would like the Pokemon designs out of Gen 1.
This is dissing other people's opinions, but due to how indirect and subtle it is it can be considered fine.
3: Game Freak ran out of ideas. How they still gain an audience with new games baffles me.
That's a bit more forceful, and you're dissing people who spent at least a year working on those designs, and you're dissing opinions again. This is more severe and is where you might have a Genwunner on your hands.
4: How can you like <Pokemon>? It's awful and could never beat out the original 151.
Genwunner alert. Forcing opinions harshly, refusing to see any faults with their argument, personally attacking whoever they are talking to. All you need.

1: I'm not a big fan of the new games.
Staying your opinion, that's cool. That's alright. You're not forcing it.
2: How do the new games even get audiences?
Like before, it's more forceful, but very subtle.
3: Why make more games when you have the originals?
Woah, slow down there a bit. Are you sure there is nothing wrong with any of those designs? Also, opinion forcing, and it's less subtle.
4: How can you not see that the newer games are so much more terrible than what I used to play back when I was a kid?
This is maximum Genwunner output. Forcing opinions, doing a personal attack, not seeing anything wrong with what they grew up with, so on.

Thing is, people fail to make the distinguishment between each stage, and that is how flame wars start.

Really, none of the examples you mentioned are that bad. Most of what you mention here amounts to simple criticism of the individual games. People do this all the time, and it doesn't make them 'genwunners' or 'pokemillenials' (a pokemillenial is essentially the polar opposite of a genwunner, the people that want to exclude fans of the older gens because they're not as knowledgable when it comes to the franchise).

Moreover, I have seen much worse when the two groups clash. Typically it starts with one side accusing the other of being such. And it escalates from there.

If the accusation isn't made, it usually doesn't escalate. If the terms didn't exist, I have a feeling the problem wouldn't be nearly as paramount as it is. When you put a label on someone, they tend to get more resistant.

When people are so quick to throw out labels like 'genwunner', it makes the entire fanbase look like a bunch of elitist snobs (by acting like they're better than everyone else because they know more about Pokémon). Instead, we should be embracing the older fans and encouraging them to learn more about it, not excluding them because they don't know as much as the rest of us.

 

[Samayouru]

Most of the genwunners have a really limited knowledge about Pokemon in general. As usual, silly opinions sprout due to a lack of knowledge. I have yet to encounter a genwunner who actually knows his stuff.

I have encountered a couple who know a fair old bit of knowledge. But they're far and few between. I'm certainly not going to stop people from being genwunners or having certain behaviours, but I have to say that since my last post in this topic, I do feel some dislike towards their attitudes because it doesn't allow for proper debate imo.

 

[SBaby]

Most of the genwunners have a really limited knowledge about Pokemon in general. As usual, silly opinions sprout due to a lack of knowledge. I have yet to encounter a genwunner who actually knows his stuff.

And as the franchise goes on, this will happen more and more often. It's called Pop Culture Osmosis. Certain aspects of a franchise endure longer than others, because the fanbase changes and often shrinks over time. People right now who are playing Sun and Moon might not be as knowledgeable about Pokémon 20 years down the road when Gen 14 comes out. That's just what happens in pop culture.

What people who throw these meaningless labels around don't realize is this is common in long lasting franchises. Most things don't maintain the same level of popularity for a long time, or if it does it tends to be only the most basic parts of it that are remembered, because most people are either not dedicated fans of it, or they grow out of it. Linkara made some really good points in his History of Power Rangers videos on issues like this. People can like something even if they're not well versed in it. As I said before (and he amazingly said in one video), the goal shouldn't be to exclude people who know less about a franchise than you, but to encourage them to learn more about it.

And when terms like 'genwunner' are used, that's not encouraging them, that's excluding them. It's like saying that people who know less than others are somehow inferior or don't matter or 'aren't true fans'. And that makes the whole fanbase look terrible.

 

[Elite4woolfy]

Genwunner's haven't been a problem for a long time. I feel like most people are overreacting about them, though.

 

[Zold]

And as the franchise goes on, this will happen more and more often. It's called Pop Culture Osmosis. Certain aspects of a franchise endure longer than others, because the fanbase changes and often shrinks over time. People right now who are playing Sun and Moon might not be as knowledgeable about Pokémon 20 years down the road when Gen 14 comes out. That's just what happens in pop culture.

What people who throw these meaningless labels around don't realize is this is common in long lasting franchises. Most things don't maintain the same level of popularity for a long time, or if it does it tends to be only the most basic parts of it that are remembered, because most people are either not dedicated fans of it, or they grow out of it. Linkara made some really good points in his History of Power Rangers videos on issues like this. People can like something even if they're not well versed in it. As I said before (and he amazingly said in one video), the goal shouldn't be to exclude people who know less about a franchise than you, but to encourage them to learn more about it.

And when terms like 'genwunner' are used, that's not encouraging them, that's excluding them. It's like saying that people who know less than others are somehow inferior or don't matter or 'aren't true fans'. And that makes the whole fanbase look terrible.

I feel as if the person you're describing doesn't match what the OP mentioned:
"Please note that I'm using the word "genwunner" not a a descriptor of someone who has Gen 1 simply as their favorite but more so describing those that have the attitude and mindset that Gen 1 (many 2, possibly 3 as well) is the best and everything else after that is crap, from the new Pokémon each generation brings to the storylines of the games and anime, characters, etc. "

If someone holds an attitude as described by the OP, then yes, that's usually due to a lack of knowledge and not giving newer generations a chance. People you describe, i.e. older fans, usually don't hold supreme negative attitudes towards newer generations from what I've seen. They usually just say, I used to like it, but then I stopped caring about it without bashing newer generations for no reason.

 

[SBaby]

I feel as if the person you're describing doesn't match what the OP mentioned:
"Please note that I'm using the word "genwunner" not a a descriptor of someone who has Gen 1 simply as their favorite but more so describing those that have the attitude and mindset that Gen 1 (many 2, possibly 3 as well) is the best and everything else after that is crap, from the new Pokémon each generation brings to the storylines of the games and anime, characters, etc. "

If someone holds an attitude as described by the OP, then yes, that's usually due to a lack of knowledge and not giving newer generations a chance. People you describe, i.e. older fans, usually don't hold supreme negative attitudes towards newer generations from what I've seen. They usually just say, I used to like it, but then I stopped caring about it without bashing newer generations for no reason.

The problem is the term 'genwunner' typically generalizes everyone into that category if they're not as knowledgeable about the later gens as the person giving the label, or if they simply have legitimate criticisms of later gens. Most people that criticize later gens have real reasons for not liking them (such as Hoenn's map requiring a lot of trucking back and forth, or the criticism of how they handled Black and White's last act, or in my case the fact that I think Mega Evolutions are stupid and unnecessary because Pokémon can already do extraordinary things without them), yet they frequently get labeled as 'genwunners' too.

 

[shinyraticate]

The problem is the term 'genwunner' typically generalizes everyone into that category if they're not as knowledgeable about the later gens as the person giving the label, or if they simply have legitimate criticisms of later gens. Most people that criticize later gens have real reasons for not liking them (such as Hoenn's map requiring a lot of trucking back and forth, or the criticism of how they handled Black and White's last act, or in my case the fact that I think Mega Evolutions are stupid and unnecessary because Pokémon can already do extraordinary things without them), yet they frequently get labeled as 'genwunners' too.

Even more, sometimes people who just like gen I are hit with this label. People who legitimately played most generations and just still love gen I don't really fit the term.

 

[SBaby]

Even more, sometimes people who just like gen I are hit with this label. People who legitimately played most generations and just still love gen I don't really fit the term.

They may not fit the term, but more often than not, they're lumped together, because that's the nature of a fanbase that uses terms like 'genwunner'. They assume everybody that is either not as well versed in all parts of the franchise, or those who haven't played certain games are inferior or not 'true fans' (another phrase that I can't stand).

As I said before, the goal should not be to exclude people who are not as well versed in the series, but to instead encourage them to learn more. And the fastest way to disincline people from learning more is to give them a label like that. It disinclines them because when they're labeled as a 'genwunner' or such, they start to think that this is how the fanbase has become in its entirety, and they stop caring.

Remember that you can be a fan of something and not be well versed in it, or even prefer certain parts of it over others. For instance, I really loved the pre-Disney era of Power Rangers, but I couldn't stand the seasons after RPM. That doesn't mean I'm not a 'true fan' or a 'genwunner' or whatnot. It's just personal preference.

 

[Auraninja]

I think the term came out because of the audacity of the purists who seem to want to complain about what others like.

There are several asinine comments out there based on people who almost insult the fanbase of the newer games.

Plus, some people just don't like moving on to other things.


I'm no fan of bullying, and I have a friend who only likes Gen I. The reason I don't call him out is because he doesn't go on to grind other people's gears (plus, only liking Gen I is a personal opinion).

 

[Tattooed Tooth]

And as the franchise goes on, this will happen more and more often. It's called Pop Culture Osmosis. Certain aspects of a franchise endure longer than others, because the fanbase changes and often shrinks over time. People right now who are playing Sun and Moon might not be as knowledgeable about Pokémon 20 years down the road when Gen 14 comes out. That's just what happens in pop culture.

What people who throw these meaningless labels around don't realize is this is common in long lasting franchises. Most things don't maintain the same level of popularity for a long time, or if it does it tends to be only the most basic parts of it that are remembered, because most people are either not dedicated fans of it, or they grow out of it. Linkara made some really good points in his History of Power Rangers videos on issues like this. People can like something even if they're not well versed in it. As I said before (and he amazingly said in one video), the goal shouldn't be to exclude people who know less about a franchise than you, but to encourage them to learn more about it.

And when terms like 'genwunner' are used, that's not encouraging them, that's excluding them. It's like saying that people who know less than others are somehow inferior or don't matter or 'aren't true fans'. And that makes the whole fanbase look terrible.

I've never seen an oldschool Power Rangers fan bash the newer gens of Power Rangers.
I've seen Star Wars fans complaining about episodes I, II and III (even if they were born much later than IV, V and VII debuts), but always rationally.

The Pokémon Genwunners are different.
Like the genuine genwunner I know, in this arguing that happened 2 weeks ago. Both me and him were in a group at the college discussing something, when a girl in the group showed a meme related to that discussion, but pictured with Pokémon. Since the color scheme was important, most pokémon used were from gen 3 or higher. He could have said nothing. He could have said "I don't know those pokémon". He actually started with "If those pokémon are from another gen than 1 and 2, I don't know them". But he had to start the bashing, how every subsequent gen was "getting worse", the classic "a f***ing garbage can" and all. He tried to appear rational saying "I know there are bad pokémon from gen 1" and even "I've seen all the new pokémon, I even liked some", but failing to recognize the nostalgia bias. Instead, he started to call the Pokémon fandom the worst fandom ever (lol).
Every time someone talks about newer pokémon is the same thing, he always bashes the new generations.

Of course, I know much more people acting as if there were only 1 (sometimes 2) generations, but I don't call them genwunners. Of course I get sad when my Japanese classmate says she's a "ghost trainer" for Pokémon GO while knowing only 3 ghost-type pokémon, but what can I do if she's not interested? While she doesn't insult the new generations (like the previous guy ALWAYS does when he gets the chance), she doesn't fit the label.

 

[SBaby]

I've never seen an oldschool Power Rangers fan bash the newer gens of Power Rangers.

You've clearly never been on a Power Rangers fansite. There are certain Seasons that are routinely bashed.

Linkara also did this on History of Power Rangers with Turbo and Super Megaforce (actually, most of the ones Nickelodeon has done have been ridiculed by him in some way, and for good reason).

I've seen Star Wars fans complaining about episodes I, II and III (even if they were born much later than IV, V and VII debuts), but always rationally.

You should have seen Spoony's Knights of the Dinner Table review of Episode I. He ripped it apart, even back when it first came out (trivia note: when Phantom Menace first came out, people actually LOVED it; I think the reason is because we were so starved for a new Star Wars movie that we didn't care that it was horribly flawed and that it tried to rewrite the entire cosmology of the universe, and nowadays it's pretty much universally panned as being the worst Star Wars movie ever made).

And let's not forget how people talk about how much Anakin whines in Episode II (seriously, it's on the level of my criticisms of Tidus from FFX in the whiny department).

The Pokémon Genwunners are different.
Like the genuine genwunner I know, in this arguing that happened 2 weeks ago. Both me and him were in a group at the college discussing something, when a girl in the group showed a meme related to that discussion, but pictured with Pokémon. Since the color scheme was important, most pokémon used were from gen 3 or higher. He could have said nothing. He could have said "I don't know those pokémon". He actually started with "If those pokémon are from another gen than 1 and 2, I don't know them". But he had to start the bashing, how every subsequent gen was "getting worse", the classic "a f***ing garbage can" and all. He tried to appear rational saying "I know there are bad pokémon from gen 1" and even "I've seen all the new pokémon, I even liked some", but failing to recognize the nostalgia bias. Instead, he started to call the Pokémon fandom the worst fandom ever (lol).
Every time someone talks about newer pokémon is the same thing, he always bashes the new generations.

Of course, I know much more people acting as if there were only 1 (sometimes 2) generations, but I don't call them genwunners. Of course I get sad when my Japanese classmate says she's a "ghost trainer" for Pokémon GO while knowing only 3 ghost-type pokémon, but what can I do if she's not interested? While she doesn't insult the new generations (like the previous guy ALWAYS does when he gets the chance), she doesn't fit the label.

The person you mention though is just one person. I don't think an anecdote justifies putting a label on entire section of the fanbase. That would be like saying that all Pokémon fans are creepy, because there's inappropriate pictures of Pokémon on the Internet. Obviously, this isn't the case either.

Also, I would hope your instructor put a stop to that. Otherwise, I would seriously question their competence in controlling the class.

On the last point here, that's the nature of Pop Culture Osmosis. The further along you get in a franchise, the fewer people there will be that are familiar with the newer parts of it (for reasons I mentioned before; they lose interest or they grow out of it). Power Rangers is one example, but the same can be said about Star Wars and how most people know who Darth Vader is, but considerably fewer know who Asajj Ventress is. And similarly, most people know who Captain Kirk is, but fewer people are going to know who Captain Archer is. Both of these examples come from franchises that have lasted a very long time. It isn't that those people aren't 'true fans' or that they are 'haters' when it comes to the newer things, they're just not as well versed anymore.

Also, keep in mind that if it weren't for a lot of these so-called 'genwunners', Pokémon wouldn't be as big as it is today. About half the people playing Pokémon right now (more likely over half), were not alive when the original first gen came out (or the second). And if it weren't for the older fans of Pokémon latching onto it in the first place, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it now and this site wouldn't exist.

 

[Auraninja]

I think we are bypassing what the OP defined the term.

Please note that I'm using the word "genwunner" not a a descriptor of someone who has Gen 1 simply as their favorite but more so describing those that have the attitude and mindset that Gen 1 (many 2, possibly 3 as well) is the best and everything else after that is crap, from the new Pokémon each generation brings to the storylines of the games and anime, characters, etc. I want to be clear that this "genwunner" label isn't something that I'm just giving to people who simply like Gen 1 above the others (a lot of people were introduced to Pokémon with Gen 1 so it's natural to have the Gen that was established when they came into the fandom be their favorite, this goes for any other Gen as well, particularly for the younger folks); it's for those who essentially feel that Gen 1 is perfect and flawless and everything else after it is terrible and not "real Pokémon".

Usually, when people have the "everything else is crap" mindset, they are not willing to change that mindset.

Of course, there are those who like generation 1 (and nothing else), but they also don't go on the Internet to complain about it.

There are people who go on rants about how only gen 1 is the true generation. Whether that annoys me or not depends on if they are trying to impose this on any medium I'm on. This is not a huge problem at the moment.

Take Smash 4 and how people just bash it because they can (and its common on gamefaqs).

 

[Tattooed Tooth]

You've clearly never been on a Power Rangers fansite. There are certain Seasons that are routinely bashed.

I barely go to any fansite.
You have a point on my use of anecdotes though. Yet those anecdotes on real life and social media comments more on Pokémon than other subcultures.

The person you mention though is just one person. I don't think an anecdote justifies putting a label on entire section of the fanbase.

I used him as an example, because that discussion happened few weeks ago. It's amazing how well he fits the description made by the OP.

Also, I would hope your instructor put a stop to that. Otherwise, I would seriously question their competence in controlling the class.

I never said it was during class, just "at college".
FYI, it was right after our LGBT group meeting.

On the last point here, that's the nature of Pop Culture Osmosis. The further along you get in a franchise, the fewer people there will be that are familiar with the newer parts of it (for reasons I mentioned before; they lose interest or they grow out of it). Power Rangers is one example, but the same can be said about Star Wars and how most people know who Darth Vader is, but considerably fewer know who Asajj Ventress is. And similarly, most people know who Captain Kirk is, but fewer people are going to know who Captain Archer is. Both of these examples come from franchises that have lasted a very long time. It isn't that those people aren't 'true fans' or that they are 'haters' when it comes to the newer things, they're just not as well versed anymore.

I got it. But it doesn't justify the ignorant attitude they do for new generations. See my Japanese classmate example: she clearly is not as well versed anymore, yet I don't consider her a genwunner simply because of her neutral (or, at worst, uninterested) attitude towards new generations. There is an obvious contrast with the guy from my school's LGBT group: he not only rejects new generations, he also aggressively repeats all those fallacies listed on many posts in this thread.

Also, keep in mind that if it weren't for a lot of these so-called 'genwunners', Pokémon wouldn't be as big as it is today. About half the people playing Pokémon right now (more likely over half), were not alive when the original first gen came out (or the second). And if it weren't for the older fans of Pokémon latching onto it in the first place, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it now and this site wouldn't exist.

Maybe.
But I can't see how that justifies the fact people willfully ignore and even aggressively deny the existence of more generations.
In other words, I can't see how that last statement is relevant for the matter.

 

[SBaby]

I got it. But it doesn't justify the ignorant attitude they do for new generations. See my Japanese classmate example: she clearly is not as well versed anymore, yet I don't consider her a genwunner simply because of her neutral (or, at worst, uninterested) attitude towards new generations. There is an obvious contrast with the guy from my school's LGBT group: he not only rejects new generations, he also aggressively repeats all those fallacies listed on many posts in this thread.


Maybe.
But I can't see how that justifies the fact people willfully ignore and even aggressively deny the existence of more generations.
In other words, I can't see how that last statement is relevant for the matter.

Look, the fact is, you're going to get those people. Whether it's through Pop Culture Osmosis (which it usually is), or the one or two cases where someone outright refuses to play later gens, there are people like that in every fandom. My point is that it's a vase minority compared to the main fanbase (at least right now; it could change depending on the attitude fans of late gens have toward them).

And I hate to break it to you, but adding labels to those people and generalizing an entire section of the fanbase in the process isn't going to change their minds. All it does is justify the attitude those people have toward it (and potentially cause more people to have that attitude). And of course it makes all Pokémon fans look bad. Because it's an indication to people that aren't as familiar with the franchise that this is how we all act.

 

[..CRIS..]

interesting thread. I myself would be considered a "genwunner" because I've been playing since '96. The way i understand "genwunner" to mean, is the generation you started playing pokemon. I know there are a lot of biases, and very strong point of views, but lets be clear, every gen has its pro's and con's. Although, Im a "genwunner" I like gen 2, because the developers added so much to the games, such as, adding day/night, certain Pokemon obtainable at different hours, breeding, shiny sprites, 16 badges, extended story (crystal), elite four was more challenging the second time, special poke balls, and even battle Red... so I was stoked when HG/SS was remade for the DS. I too have recently got into the pokemon scene and i love Pokemon SUN & since i still have my collection(gen 1-5, and every handle), i have no need to buy OR/AS and i have no interest in XY. Ultimately, i conclude with this; People like familiarity, because its easier to market. & at the end of the day it's a business. Pokemon has made some terrible moves when it comes to design and in game functions (all gens included), but that didn't stop nostalgic consumers from buying the product.

 

[Auraninja]

interesting thread. I myself would be considered a "genwunner" because I've been playing since '96. The way i understand "genwunner" to mean, is the generation you started playing pokemon.

That definition is off. A "genwunner" is not defined as the first, but as the only generation one likes. In this case, they like Generation 1, and nothing else.

 

[Spyro39]

interesting thread. I myself would be considered a "genwunner" because I've been playing since '96. The way i understand "genwunner" to mean, is the generation you started playing pokemon. I know there are a lot of biases, and very strong point of views, but lets be clear, every gen has its pro's and con's. Although, Im a "genwunner" I like gen 2, because the developers added so much to the games, such as, adding day/night, certain Pokemon obtainable at different hours, breeding, shiny sprites, 16 badges, extended story (crystal), elite four was more challenging the second time, special poke balls, and even battle Red... so I was stoked when HG/SS was remade for the DS. I too have recently got into the pokemon scene and i love Pokemon SUN & since i still have my collection(gen 1-5, and every handle), i have no need to buy OR/AS and i have no interest in XY. Ultimately, i conclude with this; People like familiarity, because its easier to market. & at the end of the day it's a business. Pokemon has made some terrible moves when it comes to design and in game functions (all gens included), but that didn't stop nostalgic consumers from buying the product.

As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, a genwunner is not a fan who prefers gen 1 as their most favorite generation. A genwunner is a fan that "have the attitude and mindset that Gen 1 (many 2, possibly 3 as well) is the best and everything else after that is crap, from the new Pokémon each generation brings to the storylines of the games and anime, characters, etc." The fact that you acknowledged that "every gen has its pros and cons" show that you are not a genwunner.