Excitable Boy
is a metaphor
...Out of curiosity, how many people believe that homosexuality is not okay and should not be allowed to spread, but believe that abortion is perfectly fine and an effective tool for carrying out bigotry?
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The Great Big Abortion Debate (READ THE FIRST POST!)
- Thread starter TheFightingPikachu
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You will find people, especially extremely religious people to believe that having a homosexual child is a greater sin. You will also find many people who believe that a child should not grow up having to suffer under the ostrasization that many homosexuals feel now/when they grew up.
Yea, kinda... or else humanity would cease to, you know, exist.
BTW, great first post... Very informative
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What? No honestly, what? Do you even know what rape is?
Are you talking in retrospect, or what?
Anyway, I am... well, I don't feel calling myself pro-life is accurate based on what that seems to stand for now, but pro-choice is accurate too. I feel it should be legal, but left for the woman to decide for herself.
I think abortion is a sensitive issue not because of the arguments of personhood and murder and "it has a soul!" or anything to the contrary, but because a lot of the people who push for or against abortion (particularly against) tend to wind up trying to control the choices of the women and what they do to their bodies, inadvertently or not.
Abortion of a fetus conceived from careless unprotected sex is dangerous, irresponsible, and ridiculous IMO, but it's still not anyone's choice to make aside from the mother (and for the father to maybe have input in, depending). People are allowed to have opinions and dislike what someone else does with their life, but I think the line should be drawn when they try to moderate what they do with their bodies -- and as long as the kid's still in there, it's still part of her body.
I can't really imagine anyone would get an abortion on a fetus old enough to live on its own, though... or that any doctors would perform it, whether they are pro-choice or not.
You're not going to need abortion to take care of that, you are going to need to tackle it in two possible ways.
A: Provide a heavy amount birth control in poor countries and poor areas around the world such as in India, Africa, Middle and South America, etc etc etc.
B: Cut off all aid to poor nations, and prevent immigration from those nations. The world has a way of culling species if they become over populated, in ways like viruses, droughts, and floods. By allowing the world to wipe out the weak in a Darwin type way, you would severely reduce the number of people in the world.
TheFightingPikachu said:
Why? It's a valid argument.
In countries where abortion is illegal, women are forced to seek out alternative means of terminating their pregancy. This includes back-alley abortion clinics, home remedies and unlicensed doctors.
As you can imagine, many women actually do die from these alternative methods.
So it works out like this.
Abortion kept legal = 1 dies.
Abortion made illegal = Potentially 2 die.
Not only should woman have the right to choose what to do with their bodies, but I think that their lives are worth more than the child inside them, and as such should be regarded far higher than they currently are.
But I'm a guy and personally I believe it should mainly be women having these discussions and debates.
Oh and BigLutz, I"m neither gay nor religious but while your argument is... thought provoking, it's probably the most depressing thing I've read in a while.
It's also a little insulting towards religious people, as many of them actually are gay themselves and would happily welcome a homosexual child just as easily as they would a heterosexual one.
Heck, maybe even more so.
Also, homosexuality can be a product of your enviroment sometimes. It can even be a choice. At least according to some gay commentators
Bill Nye the Sneasel Guy
Well-Known Member
I honestly don't understand how people can make those statements about how they are 'pro-life', yet support mothers being able to abort babies from rape. Could one such person please answer this?
If you consider the unborn to be alive, a person, all that, then why should you agree that women should be able to get away with what you would at any other time have called murder? Would you think it's right for a woman to kill her three year old just because his scumbag of a dad had been sick enough to rape his mother? The only difference there is the passage of time, provided you agreed with the first clause.
If one considers abortion to be murder, it just seems so strange to me that anyone agreeing with that statement would then say, "Except if the father was a rapist, anyway. Then it's fine."
If you consider the unborn to be alive, a person, all that, then why should you agree that women should be able to get away with what you would at any other time have called murder? Would you think it's right for a woman to kill her three year old just because his scumbag of a dad had been sick enough to rape his mother? The only difference there is the passage of time, provided you agreed with the first clause.
If one considers abortion to be murder, it just seems so strange to me that anyone agreeing with that statement would then say, "Except if the father was a rapist, anyway. Then it's fine."
The baby hold no sin, doesn't matter if the father is the rapist. I don't think people are all pro-life in general. I remember this one news about how a few kids just die today near my college campus. My feeling on that is "not my problem." They are dead already, and the man is caught. Life goes on like normal.
So you're saying if the woman is raped against her will and becomes impregnated she should be forced to carry the reminder with her for 9 months and then raise it? In addition to that the costs of pregnancy and raising a child and the fact that said woman might not be able to afford it opens a whole new set of questions.
Bill Nye the Sneasel Guy
Well-Known Member
You'll note that I never said anything of the sort, if you'll bother to read my post instead of leaping to conclusions
What I am saying is that if one considers abortion to be murder like many pro-lifers (I am NOT asking pro-choice folks, since their opinions on this are really quite clear and they do not fit the criteria I put forth at the very start of my question), then how would that abortion be made justifiable just because the father is a rapist?
I know many extraordinarily religious people and I've never met anyone who believes this. I've also never read anything like this on the internet. I don't believe this is common by any definition.
You couldn't win an argument in General Pokémon Discussion, and you won't be winning here anytime soon.
I'm fine with abortion. I don't think it is a good thing nor do I think it is bad. I think if the woman doesn't want to be a mother, then she doesn't have to be.
As i see it, abortion is just a small part of a larger fight on Sexuality, religion, and Gender Equality.
On one side you have people who seem to want to repress sexuality, the other fights for sexuality
Religion- people want to force their religion on others vs freedom of religion. I'm ok with religion as long as you dont force your religious beliefs upon me
gender - women having no control over their body vs freedom over their body
If God and the bible are pro-life, why are there miscariages?
Just because something is illegal, people will stop doing it. For example, underage drinking and drunk driving
On one side you have people who seem to want to repress sexuality, the other fights for sexuality
Religion- people want to force their religion on others vs freedom of religion. I'm ok with religion as long as you dont force your religious beliefs upon me
gender - women having no control over their body vs freedom over their body
If God and the bible are pro-life, why are there miscariages?
Just because something is illegal, people will stop doing it. For example, underage drinking and drunk driving
Bill Nye the Sneasel Guy
Well-Known Member
This is a straw man argument. I could just as easily say that on the one side, you have soulless baby killers who won't stop murdering their children so that they can just screw around whenever with anyone with no consequence, and the other side are the people wanting to protect the unborn who lack the voice to protect themselves.
It would quickly go nowhere because, well, you aren't saying that! In your view, you just want women to be free to make these decisions with their bodies, and you don't view the unborn as anything to stand in the way of that. That's the way you think.
I do view the life of the unborn as important as that of anyone else's, and I believe that a woman's right to choose doesn't include choosing death for another person. I don't jump to the thought of 'gee, I wonder how I can help women be sexually repressed and maybe start stoning them for showing some ankle' when I come to this topic, and I'd imagine that your thoughts aren't 'I really love killing me some helpless unborn babies', so we're just putting words in the other's mouth if we engage in these sorts of drive-by generalizations.
I believe killing a fetus is a homicide. You are killing a living thing, it is living because it grows and feeds,but is not born. If you are raped and get pregnant, you should not abort it unless you have no other choice. I am religious and I believe the fetus will not be born if God doesnt want it to, so pregnancy and birth is his way of getting a soul on earth. Even if you do not believe in God, killing an unborn child is killing it's one chance at life, since if YOU are reading this, you did not get your chance terminated so why do it to someone else, Unless there is no other way to keep it, health conditions ect. Just think if the unborn child could speak do you think it would agree on the termination? Im sure it wouldnt, so its murder.
Bill Nye the Sneasel Guy
Well-Known Member
What would you say your cut-off point for that is? What mental conditions would you be willing to accept, if any?
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