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The great Reserve debate

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Then why do you say it's too random for you?

I see multiple merchandise pictures and people quickly jump on them as some kind of evidence, that's what's random to me.

It's definitely possible for Ash to use reserves, but we have to wait and see, because it's not guaranteed.
And really, does Leon really need to defeat Alain's Charizard to show how tough he is?

Not saying he absolutely has to, but that is a possibility.
Alain is not special to any of the Champions (except Iris) because as Seibold shows, he can be beaten decisively. The only trainer that would feel that Alain is this unbeatable opponent is Ash himself. Alain is essentially the new Gary Oak, the one rival that is one step ahead of Ash.

I won't deny Alain is a rival to Ash, trying to compare him to Gary doesn't really work, since their rivalries are built upon different foundations.

Besides Alain even admitted to Ash that Ash was better than him after all the stuff TF did, I wouldn't exactly call that one step ahead.
You only bring back Alain if Ash is going to battle and beat him. If you want a Worf Effect, just bring back Tobias and let Leon crush him effortlessly.

I won't deny that it's a possibility, but that's all it is right now until we get further information.

They could have him fight Leon for a "Charizard" battle, or they could have him fight and lose to Steven since they never got to finish their fight due to Lysandre stopping it.

For the time being I'm just saying it's best not to jump the gun and go into absolute thinking, because all that's going to do is cause disappointment if you think something is going to happen but doesn't.

Cause let's not forget Lance and Cynthia have been shown with Leon more times than not up till now so you would think Ash would be fighting them regardless of alain's return, but that might end up not being the case.

Until we know more we can't truly discuss this.
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
I won't deny Alain is a rival to Ash, trying to compare him to Gary doesn't really work, since their rivalries are built upon different foundations.

Besides Alain even admitted to Ash that Ash was better than him after all the stuff TF did, I wouldn't exactly call that one step ahead.

I won't deny that it's a possibility, but that's all it is right now until we get further information.

They could have him fight Leon for a "Charizard" battle, or they could have him fight and lose to Steven since they never got to finish their fight due to Lysandre stopping it.

For the time being I'm just saying it's best not to jump the gun and go into absolute thinking, because all that's going to do is cause disappointment if you think something is going to happen but doesn't.

Cause let's not forget Lance and Cynthia have been shown with Leon more times than not up till now so you would think Ash would be fighting them regardless of alain's return, but that might end up not being the case.

Until we know more we can't truly discuss this.

Spiritually, Ash is the superior trainer. But Ash has always been someone who wants powerful opponents to overcome and beat. Alain admits that Ash is better as a person, but Ash sees Alain as someone he wants to fight again and this time, won't lose.

This has always been ultimately Ash's journey. And out of the 7 opponents that Ash could face, Alain and Cynthia offer the biggest narrative drama of them all. Lance is a cool opponent for Ash, but he feels like a glorified Gym Leader for Ash to naturally beat. Not enough interaction between the two. People are hyped for Ash vs Cynthia because they know exactly what Cynthia is like and Cynthia had interact with Ash multiple times to get a sense that yeah, they will fight. Just like Leon.

Alain is an odd ball for a reason because the anime has extra champions and other League crushers to choose as cannon fodder. You don't choose an infamous rival that everyone knows Ash hasn't beaten yet and not have them battle once again.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
Spiritually, Ash is the superior trainer. But Ash has always been someone who wants powerful opponents to overcome and beat. Alain admits that Ash is better as a person, but Ash sees Alain as someone he wants to fight again and this time, won't lose.

This has always been ultimately Ash's journey. And out of the 7 opponents that Ash could face, Alain and Cynthia offer the biggest narrative drama of them all. Lance is a cool opponent for Ash, but he feels like a glorified Gym Leader for Ash to naturally beat. Not enough interaction between the two. People are hyped for Ash vs Cynthia because they know exactly what Cynthia is like and Cynthia had interact with Ash multiple times to get a sense that yeah, they will fight. Just like Leon.

Alain is an odd ball for a reason because the anime has extra champions and other League crushers to choose as cannon fodder. You don't choose an infamous rival that everyone knows Ash hasn't beaten yet and not have them battle once again.
Or considering that the already had a substantial battle before, they could very well have that infamous rival lose in a major battle and then have Ash beat the person that defeats him. While it is less likely, it is not outside the realm of possibility. They could have Alain lose against one of the other regional champions and have Ash beat that person.


And to all those saying Greninja was removed from the Opening, only the scene of it on the tree was removed (Which is now over from episode 108). Serena, nor the Master Class were in the opening, yet they all showed up. The Ash Greninja form was intentionally removed from the shots in its fight with Charizard and also, they didn't use the form in the Greninja episode (Despite Ash even mentioning it to Goh). And now they bring back Alain out of all people.
Ash Greninja will have a battle. While the most obvious suspect is Alain's Charizard, it would very likely have a battle against one of the Master Class members.
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
Or considering that the already had a substantial battle before, they could very well have that infamous rival lose in a major battle and then have Ash beat the person that defeats him. While it is less likely, it is not outside the realm of possibility. They could have Alain lose against one of the other regional champions and have Ash beat that person.
I think if they wanted that, they would have gone with Tobias since Ash after all technically lost on the virtue of Tobias having four more Pokémon on his team, but spiritually won by beating all the Pokémon Tobias threw out on battlefield. So you eliminate the need for Ash to get a rematch and show just how tough Leon is.

Alain is technically a more superior battler than Ash... but only by a hair. Ash is quickly closing the gap, so beating Alain would be a rite of passage for him before facing the likes of Cynthia and Leon. Having Alain defeated by the other champions doesn't have much impact since Alain is below all the Champions with the exception of Iris and Ash (who were all recent Champions and not experienced veterans).
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
No ones going to talk about Greninja beating Alain (unless it happens in the finals which isn’t going to happen) just like no one talks about the first round of the playoffs compared to the final round. Even though the M8 is a bigger stage, it would have been better if Greninja beat Charizard at the finals of the Kalos League like it should have.
If we do get Greninja beating Charizard in the M8 or in an exhibition match then it might seem that I’m coming across as “you’ve got what you’ve wanted, why are you complaining”. It’s because everyone will talk about Ash beating Leon/Cynthia whoever and not him beating Alain if it happens earlier. And exhibition matches have no stakes.

Not at all. I agree about exhibition matches, but Ash vs. Alain in the top 8 is absolutely huge and one of Ash's biggest battles.

You are talking about this like it's Ash vs. Nando or Ash vs. Mandy. This match is happening on an entirely different level, and with past history adding interest to boot.
 

AARTX

WAKU WAKU
Okay let's assume reserves won't happen and the three battles we get are Lance, Cynthia and Leon
If it's just one team the battles would probably be 2 3v3 and one 6v6
Dracovish stars in the Lance battle, Mega Lucario against Cynthia and Pikachu against Leon?
Yeah no, feels a bit too unrealistic to me and too repetitive
Why give everyone a proper chance to shine in the hyper class if they are gonna repeat battles in Master class?
I still see atleast some reserves being brought in, just bring in one from every series and I'll be satisfied
Knowing JN, the battles before Leon will be super rushed and full of BS one shots on either side so that they’re dealt with easy. Only the Leon fight will get focus and will span 3-5 episodes max (and even that isn’t guaranteed LMAO).

Which could be worse if the tournament is a round robin or a double elimination and Ash steamrolls all of em just with his JN team
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
I think if they wanted that, they would have gone with Tobias since Ash after all technically lost on the virtue of Tobias having four more Pokémon on his team, but spiritually won by beating all the Pokémon Tobias threw out on battlefield. So you eliminate the need for Ash to get a rematch and show just how tough Leon is.

Alain is technically a more superior battler than Ash... but only by a hair. Ash is quickly closing the gap, so beating Alain would be a rite of passage for him before facing the likes of Cynthia and Leon. Having Alain defeated by the other champions doesn't have much impact since Alain is below all the Champions with the exception of Iris and Ash (who were all recent Champions and not experienced veterans).
Tobias is overhyped.
Yes, he had a team of legendary pokemon (But that doesn't make him invulnerable). Only the special Legendary pokemon in the anime like (Rayquaza, Metwo, Eternatus) are shown to be far above Regional Champion tier.

Ash beat two of Tobias's legendaries in Sinnoh and at that point in time, he wasn't even a little close to Elite four tier, yet alone Regional Champion tier. Did you forget how Flint effortlessly destroyed Ash and Cynthia destroyed Paul's Experienced team?

Paul's Torterra would logically be stronger than Ash's Sceptile and if a Pokemon of that level could take out one of Tobias's Legendaries, Flint and Cynthia would have had no problem.


Alain is not a "Superior Battler" than Ash. Alain's Charizard was simply far more experienced than any of Ash's pokemon. While Ash Greninja had 2 wins against Wolfric and Sawyer, Alain's Charizard had beaten over 20 Mega Evolutions (Including an Elite Four's ace), had experience fighting legendary Pokemon like Zygarde, Groudon/Kyogre, Mega Raquaza, and additionally, Alain even swept through all the Gyms and Pokemon League with just Charizard.

Ash is strategically a better trainer than Alain. Again maybe your definition of a better trainer could be different from mine. When I say better trainer, I'm talking strictly in terms of Battle IQ & the strategic aspect.
Take away Alain's overpowered Charizard, he basically becomes your average High Tier Regional League Opponent (Like Tyson & Harrison).
Not at all. I agree about exhibition matches, but Ash vs. Alain in the top 8 is absolutely huge and one of Ash's biggest battles.

You are talking about this like it's Ash vs. Nando or Ash vs. Mandy. This match is happening on an entirely different level, and with past history adding interest to boot.
Alain was a big deal back in Kalos because he was the first regular trainer who took down an Elite four-member (And at this point in time, Elite four members and Regional Champions were shown as untouchable and far beyond Ash).

However now, Ash is relative to Regional Champions in strength and the master class literally has THE BEST Trainers from every single region.
Alain is frankly a nobody when you look at the rest of the Master Class. I mean, even sticking to just Kalos, we have Diantha who is still the Regional Champion (Implying Alain didn't get the title from her) and she's also ranked above Alain in the PWC.

The only positive about this fight is the increase in the likelihood in seeing Ash Greninja back. Other than that, there are much better interesting opponents for Ash to fight.
I would much rather see Ash fight Steven/Cynthia or Diantha/Cynthia than Alain.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
Alain was a big deal back in Kalos because he was the first regular trainer who took down an Elite four-member (And at this point in time, Elite four members and Regional Champions were shown as untouchable and far beyond Ash).

However now, Ash is relative to Regional Champions in strength and the master class literally has THE BEST Trainers from every single region.
Alain is frankly a nobody when you look at the rest of the Master Class. I mean, even sticking to just Kalos, we have Diantha who is still the Regional Champion (Implying Alain didn't get the title from her) and she's also ranked above Alain in the PWC.

The only positive about this fight is the increase in the likelihood in seeing Ash Greninja back. Other than that, there are much better interesting opponents for Ash to fight.
I would much rather see Ash fight Steven/Cynthia or Diantha/Cynthia than Alain.

Nonsense, sorry. Alain's ranking alone dismisses any notion that he is a "nobody" - that is insane hyperbole. He is ranked above a champion, whatever you might think about Iris, and let's not forget when he beat Malva he had previously beaten 9 other Mega Pokemon in a row; it wasn't a "normal" win, it was even more impressive than that. Assuming roughly equal strength between Drasna and Malva, it's a cut above Ash's win over Drasna, and that was two sagas ago, prior to any additional training. To get to where he is now, Alain will have needed to beat opponents at a roughly similar level to those that Ash has beaten - Elite 4 members or top-level Gym Leaders like Raihan. So you are dealing here with somebody that based on just... logic, must be hovering at around Champion level. You don't know if he even challenged Diantha.

This also does little to dispute my previous post, which points out that Ash vs. Alain still has genuine stakes even in Round 1, and is inherently one of Ash's biggest ever matches just because of the stage and ranking. You could make an argument that it's the biggest ever (until the semi-final), depending on if you put a PWC quarter-final match over a regional final.

What you find interesting is entirely up to you. Totally subjective, and if you would rather see a fresh matchup in Ash/Steven, then sure, I get that. But dismissing Alain's level in service of that agenda makes no sense at all.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
Nonsense, sorry. Alain's ranking alone dismisses any notion that he is a "nobody" - that is insane hyperbole. He is ranked above a champion, whatever you might think about Iris, and let's not forget when he beat Malva he had previously beaten 9 other Mega Pokemon in a row; it wasn't a "normal" win, it was even more impressive than that. Assuming roughly equal strength between Drasna and Malva, it's a cut above Ash's win over Drasna, and that was two sagas ago, prior to any additional training. To get to where he is now, Alain will have needed to beat opponents at a roughly similar level to those that Ash has beaten - Elite 4 members or top-level Gym Leaders like Raihan. So you are dealing here with somebody that based on just... logic, must be hovering at around Champion level. You don't know if he even challenged Diantha.

This also does little to dispute my previous post, which points out that Ash vs. Alain still has genuine stakes even in Round 1, and is inherently one of Ash's biggest ever matches just because of the stage and ranking. You could make an argument that it's the biggest ever (until the semi-final), depending on if you put a PWC quarter-final match over a regional final.

What you find interesting is entirely up to you. Totally subjective, and if you would rather see a fresh matchup in Ash/Steven, then sure, I get that. But dismissing Alain's level in service of that agenda makes no sense at all.

You're literally contradicting your own points. I'm not dismissing any of Alain's feats. and am in full agreement that he is an impressive trainer.
I LITERALLY STATED Alain was a big deal back in Kalos and I'm in absolute agreement that all of his feats are amazing.
Note: With regard to the Malva Battle, Charizard was healed before each fight. Still, defeating an Elite four-member as a Non-Regional Champion was an incredible feat at the time.

However, look at the other Master Class trainers.
We have Cynthia, Steven, Diantha & Lance who are far more interesting and impressive opponents. You keep bragging about a trainer who approached Regional Champion tier when he already have established Region Champion tier trainers in the Master Class all above him.

So yes, in the context of the Master Class, Alain is a nobody. This isn't me putting him down, it is simply me highlighting how impressive the rest of the Master Class candidates are.

Whoever Ash is battling in the PWC Master Class tournament would undoubtedly be a high-stakes battle given the magnitude of the tournament. However the end goal is essentially for Ash to challenge the "STRONGEST TRAINER IN THE WORLD' and it Objectively makes far more sense for Ash to challenge, defeat and overcome trainers who were shown to be well ahead of Ash in the past, versus Alain.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
You're literally contradicting your own points. I'm not dismissing any of Alain's feats. and am in full agreement that he is an impressive trainer.
I LITERALLY STATED Alain was a big deal back in Kalos and I'm in absolute agreement that all of his feats are amazing.
Note: With regard to the Malva Battle, Charizard was healed before each fight. Still, defeating an Elite four-member as a Non-Regional Champion was an incredible feat at the time.

However, look at the other Master Class trainers.
We have Cynthia, Steven, Diantha & Lance who are far more interesting and impressive opponents. You keep bragging about a trainer who approached Regional Champion tier when he already have established Region Champion tier trainers in the Master Class all above him.

So yes, in the context of the Master Class, Alain is a nobody. This isn't me putting him down, it is simply me highlighting how impressive the rest of the Master Class candidates are.

Whoever Ash is battling in the PWC Master Class tournament would undoubtedly be a high-stakes battle given the magnitude of the tournament. However the end goal is essentially for Ash to challenge the "STRONGEST TRAINER IN THE WORLD' and it Objectively makes far more sense for Ash to challenge, defeat and overcome trainers who were shown to be well ahead of Ash in the past, versus Alain.

If you don't want to sound dismissive, then don't throw around hyperbolic language like "nobody", which undercuts whatever tone you were going for.

I'm not sure what I would be "bragging" about; Alain's feats are not mine (or anybody's - Alain does not exist). If you think I am one of those users that religiously gets behind certain characters or sagas and "stans" them, at the expense of all logic, then you should probably adjust your approach to this exchange. Alain does not play for my "team", I am not coming into this thread with some pro-Alain agenda, just like I don't have a pro or anti-Journeys agenda. So there's nothing to "brag" about - I'm just stating the facts as they are. Alain has not "approached" Champion tier, either, he is right in amongst that tier (because he is ranked above Iris, who like it or not is a champion).

Speaking of which, your assertion that "Cynthia, Steven, Diantha and Lance are far more interesting and impressive" is anything but a fact - it's yet more subjective hyperbole. You're of course welcome to find those characters more interesting, but in a discussion of facts that has no place whatsoever. As for "impressive" - well, they are higher ranked, but far more? Lance is ranked two spots higher in a competition of 10000.

If you want Ash to battle only trainers that have absolutely shown themselves to be well ahead of him in the past, then you probably need to remove Diantha from that list too, as Ash was in no way outclassed in the battle they had.

As for the end of your post, I don't see how that "objectively" makes more sense - who are you to dictate what is or isn't good sense, what is or isn't reality? I'm not sure what authority you have to declare that that sort of thing makes "far more sense" (itself a subjective statement; how are you measuring 'quantities' of sense for one thing to make "far more" sense than the other?) than something else.
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
Alain is not a "Superior Battler" than Ash. Alain's Charizard was simply far more experienced than any of Ash's pokemon. While Ash Greninja had 2 wins against Wolfric and Sawyer, Alain's Charizard had beaten over 20 Mega Evolutions (Including an Elite Four's ace), had experience fighting legendary Pokemon like Zygarde, Groudon/Kyogre, Mega Raquaza, and additionally, Alain even swept through all the Gyms and Pokemon League with just Charizard.

Ash is strategically a better trainer than Alain. Again maybe your definition of a better trainer could be different from mine. When I say better trainer, I'm talking strictly in terms of Battle IQ & the strategic aspect.
Take away Alain's overpowered Charizard, he basically becomes your average High Tier Regional League Opponent (Like Tyson & Harrison).

Superior Battler by a hair. The gap is quite narrow between Ash and Alain in XYZ. Ash needs one more battle to make it official that he not only reached Alain, but surpassed him. It's the reason why a rematch between the two is so enticing. You know that Ash has what it takes to finally beat his rival.

It's also why matching Alain up with other contestants like Diantha, Steven or Leon doesn't have as much impact as matching him up with Ash. They are leagues above Alain and them defeating Alain (which is inevitable if Alain doesn't actually battles Ash) is to be expected and it's not as exciting. It's like seeing Gary lose and only make it to the Top 32 while Ash gets to the Top 16. Like yeah, that technically allows Ash to beat his rival. But it's not the same as Ash personally beating Gary and advancing to the next rank. That's what makes the Silver Conference a superior Pokémon League.

Back to the topic, I do wonder if Greninja and Infernape's showcase in Journeys is meant to foreshadow their participation in the Master 8 battles. One for Alain, and one for Cynthia. I mean, Infernape was training to become much stronger and take on bigger opponents, just like how Greninja's battle with the vines has made him stronger than before.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
Superior Battler by a hair. The gap is quite narrow between Ash and Alain in XYZ. Ash needs one more battle to make it official that he not only reached Alain, but surpassed him. It's the reason why a rematch between the two is so enticing. You know that Ash has what it takes to finally beat his rival.

It's also why matching Alain up with other contestants like Diantha, Steven or Leon doesn't have as much impact as matching him up with Ash. They are leagues above Alain and them defeating Alain (which is inevitable if Alain doesn't actually battles Ash) is to be expected and it's not as exciting. It's like seeing Gary lose and only make it to the Top 32 while Ash gets to the Top 16. Like yeah, that technically allows Ash to beat his rival. But it's not the same as Ash personally beating Gary and advancing to the next rank. That's what makes the Silver Conference a superior Pokémon League.

Back to the topic, I do wonder if Greninja and Infernape's showcase in Journeys is meant to foreshadow their participation in the Master 8 battles. One for Alain, and one for Cynthia. I mean, Infernape was training to become much stronger and take on bigger opponents, just like how Greninja's battle with the vines has made him stronger than before.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. The Infernape episode could have just been standard BDSP promotion, but it does seem weird otherwise to put such a spotlight on him without using him later.

There's also the Paul episode coming up, and if Infernape passes unmentioned in that I'd be shocked. Weird to do that, to acknowledge Infernape's strength, and then not use him in Ash's biggest battles.

Also, I need to dispute that those trainers are "leagues above" Alain. I mean, they're evidently not. There's one ranking place between them, and Alain is ranked above an existing champion. Alain would likely have had to defeat trainers of similar strength to Ash to get to where he is. I don't think anybody here is leagues above anybody else. I mean, most people are expecting Leon/Ash to be the climax, and it would likely come down to the last two Pokemon (there's a chance Leon just thrashes Ash, Tobias-style, but that would be out of keeping with the series, imo, and very anti-climactic). Leon and Ash are ranked as far apart as is possible right now but I wouldn't even say Leon is "leagues above" Ash - so it stands to reason that the others in the tournament can't be "leagues above" Alain either.
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
Also, I need to dispute that those trainers are "leagues above" Alain. I mean, they're evidently not. There's one ranking place between them, and Alain is ranked above an existing champion. Alain would likely have had to defeat trainers of similar strength to Ash to get to where he is. I don't think anybody here is leagues above anybody else. I mean, most people are expecting Leon/Ash to be the climax, and it would likely come down to the last two Pokemon (there's a chance Leon just thrashes Ash, Tobias-style, but that would be out of keeping with the series, imo, and very anti-climactic). Leon and Ash are ranked as far apart as is possible right now but I wouldn't even say Leon is "leagues above" Ash - so it stands to reason that the others in the tournament can't be "leagues above" Alain either.

When I say leagues above Alain, I mean that unless Alain actually battles Ash, his defeat will not have any impact for Ash. I mean, he saw Leon sweep away Lance, Raihan and Flint with ease. You'll need to have Cynthia battle Leon to top that.

Thus, I'm not sure what the purpose of Alain would be if he's a jobber. Nobody would know if Ash is truly better than Alain or if it's just the luck of the opponents that evaluated Ash to the next level. Like Gary Oak in the Indigo League. Do we honestly think that Ash in the Indigo League is better than Gary as a trainer just because Ash is one rank higher than Gary despite the two not battling? No, of course not. As Gary shows in their first actual battle, he could beat Ash with ease. The only way for Ash to officially surpass Gary is beating him in the Silver Conference personally.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
If you don't want to sound dismissive, then don't throw around hyperbolic language like "nobody", which undercuts whatever tone you were going for.

I'm not sure what I would be "bragging" about; Alain's feats are not mine (or anybody's - Alain does not exist). If you think I am one of those users that religiously gets behind certain characters or sagas and "stans" them, at the expense of all logic, then you should probably adjust your approach to this exchange. Alain does not play for my "team", I am not coming into this thread with some pro-Alain agenda, just like I don't have a pro or anti-Journeys agenda. So there's nothing to "brag" about - I'm just stating the facts as they are. Alain has not "approached" Champion tier, either, he is right in amongst that tier (because he is ranked above Iris, who like it or not is a champion).

Speaking of which, your assertion that "Cynthia, Steven, Diantha and Lance are far more interesting and impressive" is anything but a fact - it's yet more subjective hyperbole. You're of course welcome to find those characters more interesting, but in a discussion of facts that has no place whatsoever. As for "impressive" - well, they are higher ranked, but far more? Lance is ranked two spots higher in a competition of 10000.

If you want Ash to battle only trainers that have absolutely shown themselves to be well ahead of him in the past, then you probably need to remove Diantha from that list too, as Ash was in no way outclassed in the battle they had.

As for the end of your post, I don't see how that "objectively" makes more sense - who are you to dictate what is or isn't good sense, what is or isn't reality? I'm not sure what authority you have to declare that that sort of thing makes "far more sense" (itself a subjective statement; how are you measuring 'quantities' of sense for one thing to make "far more" sense than the other?) than something else.
You essentially say a lot of nothing without making a point.

1) Alain's biggest feat in Kalos was that he was the first Regular Trainer to defeat an Elite four Member.

2) Ash had a close battle with Alain which the latter ended up winning in the end.

3) Regional Champions were always shown to be far more impressive and stronger than Ash. As for your point about Diantha, I suggest you go back and watch the episode. The battle they had "was not a serious battle". Diantha was merely curious about the new power of Greninja that Ash and Olympia mentioned and was testing Greninja. However, what she did was severely underestimate Greninja which resulted in Gardevoir taking unnecessary damage. If it was a serious battle, Gardevoir would've knocked Greninja out. So claiming Diantha was "Outclassed" is delusional on your part. Based on this inference, then Sawyer and Wolfric would be stronger than Diantha, which is stupid.
Based on this simple point, it is pretty evident that most of your points are just pretty words simply hyping up Alain when it is an objective fact that he ranks below the rest of the Regional Champions in terms of feats.

If Ash's end goal is to be fighting the strongest trainer in the world, he should be fighting established trainers far stronger than him. Not trainers who he almost beat. This is what would narratively make sense and is far more objective than the nonsense you sum up to hype Alain.

Again, I repeat, before Journey's, I've always placed Ash's battle and accomplishment against Alain (Despite him losing) far ahead of all his other feats that also include the Alola league and his battle against Kukui and Tapu Koko. That said, from the Master Class perspective, Alain is a nobody.

Sure, they could've hyped Alain up as the new Regional Champion of Kalos (But wait they didn't). I mean sure, they could still hype him up by having him beat another Regional Champion Like Steven/Diantha Round 1. However, fighting Alain Round 1 would be underwhelming when there are established characters who have been shown to be far superior and ahead of Ash in the Master Class (When the purpose of these battles are in a way, meant to be preparing him for the fight against the Strongest Trainer in the world).
Superior Battler by a hair. The gap is quite narrow between Ash and Alain in XYZ. Ash needs one more battle to make it official that he not only reached Alain, but surpassed him. It's the reason why a rematch between the two is so enticing. You know that Ash has what it takes to finally beat his rival.

It's also why matching Alain up with other contestants like Diantha, Steven or Leon doesn't have as much impact as matching him up with Ash. They are leagues above Alain and them defeating Alain (which is inevitable if Alain doesn't actually battles Ash) is to be expected and it's not as exciting. It's like seeing Gary lose and only make it to the Top 32 while Ash gets to the Top 16. Like yeah, that technically allows Ash to beat his rival. But it's not the same as Ash personally beating Gary and advancing to the next rank. That's what makes the Silver Conference a superior Pokémon League.

Back to the topic, I do wonder if Greninja and Infernape's showcase in Journeys is meant to foreshadow their participation in the Master 8 battles. One for Alain, and one for Cynthia. I mean, Infernape was training to become much stronger and take on bigger opponents, just like how Greninja's battle with the vines has made him stronger than before.
1) They could very well have Alain beat Steven or Diantha in Round 1 and match him against Ash in the Semi-Finals. This sets him up as as a much better opponent of Ash. If the latter were to battle him in Round 1, it would simply be underwhelming given the fact that the Master Class also includes Opponents who have been established as far ahead of Ash.
While I disagree with Alain being a "Superior Battler by a hair", for the sake of argument, let us assume I agree to this. If that were the case, then what's the point of Ash battling someone slightly better than him, when he'd be better off battling trainers who are far more established and indicated as much better, given the fact that these battles are meant to set him up against his final battle against Leon ("Who is the world strongest trainer").

2) I too agree that it would be a waste to use Alain as Fodder to Leon. That said, I am against Ash battling Alain in the first round (Which seems like the likeliest possibility), given the fact that there are far more accomplished trainers in the Master Class. Have Alain beat one of them in Round 1 and then challenge Ash? Sure. Or personally, I'd rather see Alain have a tough battle against Diantha/Steven and lose and Ash and Greninja manage to overcome this obstacle in the semi-finals (Which in a way also gives him an indirect redemption after the Kalos loss).
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
As Gary shows in their first actual battle, he could beat Ash with ease.

Can you really say that when Gary's two wins over Ash were 1 v 1 with Pikachu being used and getting defeated both times?

Yet in their silver conference showdown, we got a full battle without Pikachu being involved and Ash beat Gary's team including his starter.

Kind of ironic and interesting that for being Ash's first major rival, Ash's main pokemon has yet to get a win over the guy.
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
1) They could very well have Alain beat Steven or Diantha in Round 1 and match him against Ash in the Semi-Finals. This sets him up as as a much better opponent of Ash. If the latter were to battle him in Round 1, it would simply be underwhelming given the fact that the Master Class also includes Opponents who have been established as far ahead of Ash.
While I disagree with Alain being a "Superior Battler by a hair", for the sake of argument, let us assume I agree to this. If that were the case, then what's the point of Ash battling someone slightly better than him, when he'd be better off battling trainers who are far more established and indicated as much better, given the fact that these battles are meant to set him up against his final battle against Leon ("Who is the world strongest trainer").

2) I too agree that it would be a waste to use Alain as Fodder to Leon. That said, I am against Ash battling Alain in the first round (Which seems like the likeliest possibility), given the fact that there are far more accomplished trainers in the Master Class. Have Alain beat one of them in Round 1 and then challenge Ash? Sure. Or personally, I'd rather see Alain have a tough battle against Diantha/Steven and lose and Ash and Greninja manage to overcome this obstacle in the semi-finals (Which in a way also gives him an indirect redemption after the Kalos loss).

The point I'm making is that Alain would have to be one of Ash's opponents in order to make his inclusion in the Master 8 feel justified. If he is defeated by anyone other than Ash, there would be no impact. Sure, Alain could defeat other Champions in Round 1, but if he gets defeated by Leon in Round 2, then big whoop. He might as well be Alder or Tobias. Alain is a chance for Ash to really see if he has truly improved himself since last time.

Can you really say that when Gary's two wins over Ash were 1 v 1 with Pikachu being used and getting defeated both times?

Yet in their silver conference showdown, we got a full battle without Pikachu being involved and Ash beat Gary's team including his starter.

Kind of ironic and interesting that for being Ash's first major rival, Ash's main pokemon has yet to get a win over the guy.

Gary was a formidable opponent since Ash's Pikachu was considered to be one of Ash's best battlers even back then. I mean, the electric mouse took down a Dragonite just recently. And while Ash did defeat Gary in the Silver Conference, keep in mind that Gary had the edge for the longest time. It only took Charizard going through an endurance round against half of Gary's team and Ash's quick thinking strategy that gave Ash the victory.

My point is that for Ash truly be better than Gary, he has to actually beat him in a battle fair and square. Not by luck or morality, but actual battle. Only then can we say that Ash is better than Gary and that it wasn't a fluke. The same can be said for Alain. Do we really want indirect victories for Ash against Alain when there's a chance for Ash to have his rematch right there? Indirect victories cannot prove if Ash is a better trainer and battler than Alain. There would be Internet wars over if Ash simply gotten lucky that his opponent is anyone but Alain.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
You essentially say a lot of nothing without making a point.

1) Alain's biggest feat in Kalos was that he was the first Regular Trainer to defeat an Elite four Member.

2) Ash had a close battle with Alain which the latter ended up winning in the end.

3) Regional Champions were always shown to be far more impressive and stronger than Ash. As for your point about Diantha, I suggest you go back and watch the episode. The battle they had "was not a serious battle". Diantha was merely curious about the new power of Greninja that Ash and Olympia mentioned and was testing Greninja. However, what she did was severely underestimate Greninja which resulted in Gardevoir taking unnecessary damage. If it was a serious battle, Gardevoir would've knocked Greninja out. So claiming Diantha was "Outclassed" is delusional on your part. Based on this inference, then Sawyer and Wolfric would be stronger than Diantha, which is stupid.
Based on this simple point, it is pretty evident that most of your points are just pretty words simply hyping up Alain when it is an objective fact that he ranks below the rest of the Regional Champions in terms of feats.

If Ash's end goal is to be fighting the strongest trainer in the world, he should be fighting established trainers far stronger than him. Not trainers who he almost beat. This is what would narratively make sense and is far more objective than the nonsense you sum up to hype Alain.

Again, I repeat, before Journey's, I've always placed Ash's battle and accomplishment against Alain (Despite him losing) far ahead of all his other feats that also include the Alola league and his battle against Kukui and Tapu Koko. That said, from the Master Class perspective, Alain is a nobody.

Sure, they could've hyped Alain up as the new Regional Champion of Kalos (But wait they didn't). I mean sure, they could still hype him up by having him beat another Regional Champion Like Steven/Diantha Round 1. However, fighting Alain Round 1 would be underwhelming when there are established characters who have been shown to be far superior and ahead of Ash in the Master Class (When the purpose of these battles are in a way, meant to be preparing him for the fight against the Strongest Trainer in the world).

I think you need to carefully re-read my post, then, as I made several points. You threw around words like "bragging" (which was either an accusation or a total misuse of the word - either way, it needed dealing with) and "objectively" (and that one was just an outright misuse, which, again, needed dealing with).

I also directly countered your statement that these champions are "far more interesting and impressive"; who is or isn't an "interesting" character is just opinion, but "far more" impressive makes little sense to me when there's 10000 trainers and Alain is literally ranked one spot below a lot of the Champions (and is ranked above another).

Continuing on, you launch into a big paragraph bringing up a lot of other factors about what would or wouldn't have happened when Ash fought Diantha; we can only comment on what has happened, and that was a competitive match - with Ash-Greninja not even fully mastered. But then we get to my favourite part, where you claim I said Diantha was "outclassed". It really explains how you could say I "didn't make a point" in my last post when you so badly misread what I said:
"Ash was in no way outclassed in the battle they had."

As in, Diantha did not outclass Ash in that battle. You could argue "oh, she would have done," but hey presto, she didn't. And I certainly never suggested, even for a moment, that Ash outclassed her.

So, like I said, if you think I'm not making any points then a careful re-reading might be in order, since you seem to be misunderstanding and misreading some of what I'm saying.

Another error: it is not objective fact that Alain is ranked below the rest of the regional champions, as, again, he is ranked above Iris. You can refuse to acknowledge Iris if you want, you can act like she's not a "real" champion, act like she is not legit because Ash beat her... but just be aware that to do so is to actively fight the reality of the show, and the reality of the show is that Iris is a) a champion and b) ranked in the top 8...but below Alain. So he is in amongst that Champion tier. Not below it. Amongst it. In it. Part of it. It might be a hard reality to get your head around, because it's Iris and most of her ability is "told", not shown. I sympathise with that entirely as it does feel like a leap. But the fact is she rose from the Great Class, and the loss to Ash, to eventually being ranked over him.

As for "Not trainers who he almost beat. This is what would narratively make sense and is far more objective than the nonsense you sum up to hype Alain," I'm not even sure where to start... my god. Do you like...I mean do you know what objective means? Something isn't "far more objective", it either is objective or it isn't. So you claiming that a narrative decision you personally would prefer is "objectively better" or would "objectively make more sense" is a declaration that your preference is a fact, that your approach to the narrative is the one true way of doing it. That is, of course, total insanity.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
There would be Internet wars over if Ash simply gotten lucky that his opponent is anyone but Alain.

there is war over everything they do in this show, heck if their rematch isn't some glorious masterpiece (Since i've seen people talk about this alot with Ash's recent fights) people will complain.

Also, if we get an indication that greninja won't be able to make it, then I'm sure people are going to hope they don't fight.
 

doofinc

either on the copium or the hopium
TFW you wanted Ash to bring back Ash-Greninja so that he could legally cheat in the PWC since Ash-Greninja is not a mega, but then you realize Lucario sure is effectively using a G-Max move as a Mega Evolution.

I really wonder how things are going to play out now, losing a bit of faith in the Greninja return but TBH, now I just want him to return to clarify the janky flashbacks at least. Have him lose to Mega Zard X again and have Lucario redeem the master or something, please just clarify that stupid flashback.

Outside of the OS, the only league to use reserves AFAIK was Sinnoh, and there was notable reserve usage for the battle frontier before that, but not much since. Journeys probably has the most reserve showcase since DP, so there might be signs of hope. For a normal series, I might be in the minority but I'm in favour of no reserves since a series should focus on the team that was built up that series. But for something as grand and important as the Masters 8, I really hope we get something.
 
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