The great Reserve debate

[doofinc]

TFW you wanted Ash to bring back Ash-Greninja so that he could legally cheat in the PWC since Ash-Greninja is not a mega, but then you realize Lucario sure is effectively using a G-Max move as a Mega Evolution.

I really wonder how things are going to play out now, losing a bit of faith in the Greninja return but TBH, now I just want him to return to clarify the janky flashbacks at least. Have him lose to Mega Zard X again and have Lucario redeem the master or something, please just clarify that stupid flashback.

Outside of the OS, the only league to use reserves AFAIK was Sinnoh, and there was notable reserve usage for the battle frontier before that, but not much since. Journeys probably has the most reserve showcase since DP, so there might be signs of hope. For a normal series, I might be in the minority but I'm in favour of no reserves since a series should focus on the team that was built up that series. But for something as grand and important as the Masters 8, I really hope we get something.

 

[Shadao]

TFW you wanted Ash to bring back Ash-Greninja so that he could legally cheat in the PWC since Ash-Greninja is not a mega, but then you realize Lucario sure is effectively using a G-Max move as a Mega Evolution.

I really wonder how things are going to play out now, losing a bit of faith in the Greninja return but TBH, now I just want him to return to clarify the janky flashbacks at least. Have him lose to Mega Zard X again and have Lucario redeem the master or something, please just clarify that stupid flashback.

Outside of the OS, the only league to use reserves AFAIK was Sinnoh, and there was notable reserve usage for the battle frontier before that, but not much since. Journeys probably has the most reserve showcase since DP, so there might be signs of hope. For a normal series, I might be in the minority but I'm in favour of no reserves since a series should focus on the team that was built up that series. But for something as grand and important as the Masters 8, I really hope we get something.

Reserves in Sinnoh never gets in the way of the important battle, which is Ash vs Paul. When Ash gets to Paul, he takes the original Sinnoh team to the field, Gible excluded.

The Journeys Team is reserved against Leon, period. But every other Champion is fair game for switching up. Heck, even Ash realizes that he can't hope to defeat Raihan without changing his preferred strategy. And the Master 8 will be Ash's greatest challenge yet if Raihan is any indication.

 

[doofinc]

Reserves in Sinnoh never gets in the way of the important battle, which is Ash vs Paul. When Ash gets to Paul, he takes the original Sinnoh team to the field, Gible excluded.

The Journeys Team is reserved against Leon, period. But every other Champion is fair game for switching up. Heck, even Ash realizes that he can't hope to defeat Raihan without changing his preferred strategy. And the Master 8 will be Ash's greatest challenge yet if Raihan is any indication.

I get where you're coming from, but the way I feel it should be executed in a normal series is that it should be the culmination of that team's adventure. Sure, Ash vs. Paul was the peak of the rivalry, and a good amount of the team got some spotlight, but I can't forget Torterra jobbing and how there could've been opportunity for a Torterra showcase in some of the other battles.

Ofc, there are some leagues that still fail at doing this even without reserves. I enjoyed the Kalos league but Noivern/Goodra definitely got the short stick so the Kalos League failed in that aspect. The Alola league, which I had a lot of criticisms for in general, did manage to get that aspect pretty well (very good showcases for Rowlet, Lycanroc, Incineroar, Pikachu; Melmetal and Naganadel got wins at least).

All that being said, M8 is so different and prestigious that I'm fine with the show forgoing that for a mixed scheme of reserves + leaving one battle for the full team similar to what that they did for Sinnoh. Just hope that every one of them gets some kind of showcase.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Tbf the best chance to have Ash beat Alain was in the Kalos League Finals because it’s the final round. If Ash beats Alain here I’ll be just be a footnote in Ashs journey and not have any relative importance because everyone will remember Ash vs Leon instead because it’s the final battle.
Also with how hyped up Ash-Greninja is I see it to be the next Poke Jesus and thus mastered Ash Greninja should be unbeatable and be able to defeat Arceus.

 

[anipokefan]

Tbf the best chance to have Ash beat Alain was in the Kalos League Finals because it’s the final round. If Ash beats Alain here I’ll be just be a footnote in Ashs journey and not have any relative importance because everyone will remember Ash vs Leon instead because it’s the final battle.
Also with how hyped up Ash-Greninja is I see it to be the next Poke Jesus and thus mastered Ash Greninja should be unbeatable and be able to defeat Arceus.

I've seen your posts, I don't know if you are being ironic or serious, hopefully it's the former.

 

[Almighty Zard]

Also with how hyped up Ash-Greninja is I see it to be the next Poke Jesus and thus mastered Ash Greninja should be unbeatable and be able to defeat Arceus.

that's abit extreme

then again i've had extremist thoughts myself about how a certain fire turtle would have to do something just as impossible to be redeemed.

so i can't hold nothing against you.

 

[Broseph08]

You essentially say a lot of nothing without making a point.

1) Alain's biggest feat in Kalos was that he was the first Regular Trainer to defeat an Elite four Member.

2) Ash had a close battle with Alain which the latter ended up winning in the end.

3) Regional Champions were always shown to be far more impressive and stronger than Ash. As for your point about Diantha, I suggest you go back and watch the episode. The battle they had "was not a serious battle". Diantha was merely curious about the new power of Greninja that Ash and Olympia mentioned and was testing Greninja. However, what she did was severely underestimate Greninja which resulted in Gardevoir taking unnecessary damage. If it was a serious battle, Gardevoir would've knocked Greninja out. So claiming Diantha was "Outclassed" is delusional on your part. Based on this inference, then Sawyer and Wolfric would be stronger than Diantha, which is stupid.
Based on this simple point, it is pretty evident that most of your points are just pretty words simply hyping up Alain when it is an objective fact that he ranks below the rest of the Regional Champions in terms of feats.

If Ash's end goal is to be fighting the strongest trainer in the world, he should be fighting established trainers far stronger than him. Not trainers who he almost beat. This is what would narratively make sense and is far more objective than the nonsense you sum up to hype Alain.

Again, I repeat, before Journey's, I've always placed Ash's battle and accomplishment against Alain (Despite him losing) far ahead of all his other feats that also include the Alola league and his battle against Kukui and Tapu Koko. That said, from the Master Class perspective, Alain is a nobody.

Sure, they could've hyped Alain up as the new Regional Champion of Kalos (But wait they didn't). I mean sure, they could still hype him up by having him beat another Regional Champion Like Steven/Diantha Round 1. However, fighting Alain Round 1 would be underwhelming when there are established characters who have been shown to be far superior and ahead of Ash in the Master Class (When the purpose of these battles are in a way, meant to be preparing him for the fight against the Strongest Trainer in the world).

1) They could very well have Alain beat Steven or Diantha in Round 1 and match him against Ash in the Semi-Finals. This sets him up as as a much better opponent of Ash. If the latter were to battle him in Round 1, it would simply be underwhelming given the fact that the Master Class also includes Opponents who have been established as far ahead of Ash.
While I disagree with Alain being a "Superior Battler by a hair", for the sake of argument, let us assume I agree to this. If that were the case, then what's the point of Ash battling someone slightly better than him, when he'd be better off battling trainers who are far more established and indicated as much better, given the fact that these battles are meant to set him up against his final battle against Leon ("Who is the world strongest trainer").

2) I too agree that it would be a waste to use Alain as Fodder to Leon. That said, I am against Ash battling Alain in the first round (Which seems like the likeliest possibility), given the fact that there are far more accomplished trainers in the Master Class. Have Alain beat one of them in Round 1 and then challenge Ash? Sure. Or personally, I'd rather see Alain have a tough battle against Diantha/Steven and lose and Ash and Greninja manage to overcome this obstacle in the semi-finals (Which in a way also gives him an indirect redemption after the Kalos loss).

Honestly, I agree with you to a large extent here. Alain is def a top trainer and him beating an Elite 4 trainer was a crazy feat back then. But from that special, his brief battle with Steven gave me the impression that he was a cut below the true Champions. I def don't see him on the same level as the other champions in the series although I guess they could change that. But it is why a round 1 matchup with Ash wouldn't be that exciting to me

 

[AJ97]

Honestly, I agree with you to a large extent here. Alain is def a top trainer and him beating an Elite 4 trainer was a crazy feat back then. But from that special, his brief battle with Steven gave me the impression that he was a cut below the true Champions. I def don't see him on the same level as the other champions in the series although I guess they could change that. But it is why a round 1 matchup with Ash wouldn't be that exciting to me

Precisely, the other 2 commenters are simply Alain/Kalos stans obsessing over the rematch.
Alain was undoubtedly a very big deal back in Kalos and I still consider Ash's performance against him his greatest feat (Until Journeys). Even above his Alola League victory or battle against Kukui which some people seem to rate higher.

That said, Alain from Kalos is severely outclassed by the majority of the Master Class challengers. Unless they further develop his character and establish him to be even stronger by perhaps defeating a noteworthy champion like Steven Round 1, it would be underwhelming to see Ash battle him when they are clearly better established and stronger trainers in the master class.

Plus, Alain as a round 2 matchup would still suck IMO as Ash would then potentially be fighting 2 back to back Charizard aces. Granted, G-Max Charizard and MCX are different, but still, it would be underwhelming given the number of options available.

Personally, I would prefer a variation of what @Almighty Zard suggested where Ash and Alain battle outside the Master Class (Or Ash Greninja defeating a pokemon MCX doesn't defeat).

If the PWC is a direct knockout tournament with Ash potentially having only 3 matches, they could have an Ash vs Cynthia (Round 1 with the match against Paul being the training/preparation for this) and then have Ash battle against Steven/Diantha (The one who defeats Alain Round 1) in the semi-finals, and maybe here, Alain finds out about the vines in Kalos and offers to hold down the fort and allow Ash to use Ash Greninja for the next battle. Plus, in preparation for this battle, they could have a rematch between Ash Greninja and MCX.

 

[Shadao]

That said, Alain from Kalos is severely outclassed by the majority of the Master Class challengers. Unless they further develop his character and establish him to be even stronger by perhaps defeating a noteworthy champion like Steven Round 1, it would be underwhelming to see Ash battle him when they are clearly better established and stronger trainers in the master class.

Stronger trainers do not make a good narrative compared to a trainer that Ash knows well. Was the battle against Tobias more superior than Paul's because Tobias is clearly a better established and stronger trainer?

Narratively, the Champions that have most narrative juice for Ash are Leon, Cythnia, Alain, Iris, and Lance. And Ash already beat Iris, so we can cross her off the potential list. While Ash has interacted with Diantha and Steven, it's not as well defined compared to the likes of the five I mentioned above. They may be powerful, but have no narrative stakes because we know Ash is gonna beat them since he's going to face Leon regardless.

Ash battling Alain would not be underwhelming because Ash has personal experience of how strong Alain is. The perfect time for flashbacks and recalling how Ash almost won but didn't manage to deliver the final blow. Alain's sudden reappearance may cause Ash to remember the Lumoise Conference finals and realize that he was this close to winning the battle. And rather than remember the good times, he's now thinking about how to avoid a repeat. A lot can be done with Alain rematch.

In contrast, Diantha and Steven would be glorified Gym battles. Nothing exactly putting Ash on edge if he has 3 matches.

 

[Panky..]

and Lance

They don't really have narrative juice together. Their only interactions in the past have been during villain crisis arcs rather than competitive battling formats, and there's certainly been no foreshadowing of any competition between them (unless you count those end of PWC episode 5 second still frames as such), especially compared to the 4 you mentioned. Most of the links people draw are based off speculation and headcanoning. If anything, I'd say he has more connection with Diantha pertaining to this profession in contrast to Lance, especially with their DNF battle and other interactions.

Regardless, Alain to Cynthia to Leon is the one that holds the strongest narrative value out of all the competitors and round progression combinations, unless they adopt a group round robin format.

 

[Shadao]

They don't really have narrative juice together. Their only interactions in the past have been during villain crisis arcs rather than competitive battling formats, and there's certainly been no foreshadowing of any competition between them (unless you count those end of PWC episode 5 second still frames as such), especially compared to the 4 you mentioned. Most of the links people draw are based off speculation and headcanoning. If anything, I'd say he has more connection with Diantha pertaining to this profession in contrast to Lance, especially with their DNF battle and other interactions.

Regardless, Alain to Cynthia to Leon is the one that holds the strongest narrative value out of all the competitors and round progression combinations, unless they adopt a group round robin format.

Oh I know, but I wanted to be fair just in case if my memory was faulty of how Lance interacted with Ash.

So that just leaves Leon, Cynthia, and Alain on the table for the most narrative-driven battles then. A perfect line up.

 

[Blood Red]

Oh I know, but I wanted to be fair just in case if my memory was faulty of how Lance interacted with Ash.

So that just leaves Leon, Cynthia, and Alain on the table for the most narrative-driven battles then. A perfect line up.

Don't forget Diantha. Ash said he'd win the Kalos League and challenge her to a fight, but that never panned out...for obvious reasons. He's also fought against her twice, and lost both times (though the Greninja battle was surprisingly close).

...man, I'll never forget seeing Ash toss a Champion's ace around for the first time. Easily one of the best moments in this show.

 

[Almighty Zard]

Ash battling Alain would not be underwhelming because Ash has personal experience of how strong Alain is. The perfect time for flashbacks and recalling how Ash almost won but didn't manage to deliver the final blow. Alain's sudden reappearance may cause Ash to remember the Lumoise Conference finals and realize that he was this close to winning the battle. And rather than remember the good times, he's now thinking about how to avoid a repeat. A lot can be done with Alain rematch.

this kind of thinking screams desperation to me.

Remember what I said about rivalries being different, Gary and Paul had alot more impact on Ash as when they beat him and it caused him to go into deep reflection, that never happened with Alain because the focus was more about him trying to control Greninja's powers, and it's not like Alain was a jerk to Ash like Gary or Paul either, they were also established rivals from the beginning of their respective generations where as Ash and Alain didn't even meet until after Ash had seven badges, that's hardly time for a good rivalry, and the primary focus between them was only on 2 pokemon.

If a rematch absolutely needs to happen between MCX and AG, it shouldn't be during the masters 8 because the narrative only focuses on them, none of the other pokemon in the battle matter, and several people have agreed with that line of thought.

I disagree with it because that's not how any masters 8 battle Ash is in should be handled, all the pokemon used in the upcoming fights, reserves or not need to play a part in the narrative and keep people on their toes. You don't get that if the Ash and Alain fight during this during this because all people are going to care about is AG beating MCX regardless of how the rest of the fight plays out, unless Greninja's not involved, but should that happen some are not going to accept Ash's win over Alain, all because he didn't use 1 specific guy to do it.

I get people want the rematch, but if it's going to happen it should be outside of the M8, because of the venue's status we should be seeing great battles from start to finish with every pokemon involved (reserves or not) in the fight being important, not a battle where everyone is effectively cannon fodder for just 2 pokemon to go at it(and again people have said they are ok with this), and one of them pretty having to win, tell me in practice does that really seem all that exciting for a match in such a high stakes tournament?

Plus the speculating you've been doing is only on things from Ash's side here like he absolutely has to think like this, what if Alain sees that Ash has a Key Stone now and is interested in fighting Lucario when he finds out Ash got an actual mega? Cause that argument can swing both ways.

Besides if he finds out that Greninja can't be there due to the vines thing that team flare caused, i'm sure Alain would understand, if they weren't that big of a deal then Greninja wouldn't have even needed to stay behind to deal with them to begin with. Knowing this and the fact he still could very well still be guilty about helping Team Flare, he very well might want to go help Greninja deal with them after the tournament, and get his rematch with it then, which if AG really needs to be validated would be a better time to do it as it doesn't undercut the Masters 8 tournament for the sake of one battle where only 2 pokemon matter.

 

[Shadao]

this kind of thinking screams desperation to me.

Remember what I said about rivalries being different, Gary and Paul had alot more impact on Ash as when they beat him and it caused him to go into deep reflection, that never happened with Alain because the focus was more about him trying to control Greninja's powers, and it's not like Alain was a jerk to Ash like Gary or Paul either, they were also established rivals from the beginning of their respective generations where as Ash and Alain didn't even meet until after Ash had seven badges, that's hardly time for a good rivalry, and the primary focus between them was only on 2 pokemon.

If a rematch absolutely needs to happen between MCX and AG, it shouldn't be during the masters 8 because the narrative only focuses on them, none of the other pokemon in the battle matter, and several people have agreed with that line of thought.

I disagree with it because that's not how any masters 8 battle Ash is in should be handled, all the pokemon used in the upcoming fights, reserves or not need to play a part in the narrative and keep people on their toes. You don't get that if the Ash and Alain fight during this during this because all people are going to care about is AG beating MCX regardless of how the rest of the fight plays out, unless Greninja's not involved, but should that happen some are not going to accept Ash's win over Alain, all because he didn't use 1 specific guy to do it.

I get people want the rematch, but if it's going to happen it should be outside of the M8, because of the venue's status we should be seeing great battles from start to finish with every pokemon involved (reserves or not) in the fight being important, not a battle where everyone is effectively cannon fodder for just 2 pokemon to go at it(and again people have said they are ok with this), and one of them pretty having to win, tell me in practice does that really seem all that exciting for a match in such a high stakes tournament?

Plus the speculating you've been doing is only on things from Ash's side here like he absolutely has to think like this, what if Alain sees that Ash has a Key Stone now and is interested in fighting Lucario when he finds out Ash got an actual mega? Cause that argument can swing both ways.

Besides if he finds out that Greninja can't be there due to the vines thing that team flare caused, i'm sure Alain would understand, if they weren't that big of a deal then Greninja wouldn't have even needed to stay behind to deal with them to begin with. Knowing this and the fact he still could very well still be guilty about helping Team Flare, he very well might want to go help Greninja deal with them after the tournament, and get his rematch with it then, which if AG really needs to be validated would be a better time to do it as it doesn't undercut the Masters 8 tournament for the sake of one battle where only 2 pokemon matter.

You think Ash needs jerk behavior from Alain to be considered his personal rival? I see it the same like Ash's desire to beat Leon. It's a challenge that has yet to be overcome, and with Mega Charizard X's narrow win, it would be in Ash's interest to close that gap and see how much he improves.

Honestly, I remember how people were denial and desperate for Alain to NOT be Ash's rival in the XY saga even though it was telegraphed quite obviously. They say there's no reason for Alain to join the Kalos League. No reason for Alain to suddenly want to battle Ash. His goal is too different. He arrives too late, etc.

And then Alain proceeds to join Kalos League and wants to battle Ash.

The desire for Alain to be Ash's rival in XY is a natural one. Alain is depicted as being strong and very motivated to become stronger. He has a Mega Charizard X that is very powerful, able to fight Elite Four. And he has his own dedicated Mega Evolution Specials. Ash doesn't need personal grudges to form a rivalry with Alain. The sheer fact that Alain is powerful and more importantly, the one trainer Ash has yet to beat, is enough to fill in the narrative. At least better than most other champions.

 

[Almighty Zard]

You think Ash needs jerk behavior from Alain to be considered his personal rival?

when you consider how much more intense his rivalries with Gary and Paul were due to them being jerks , i'd say it's not completely necessary but it helps

I see it the same like Ash's desire to beat Leon. It's a challenge that has yet to be overcome, and with Mega Charizard X's narrow win, it would be in Ash's interest to close that gap and see how much he improves.

But does he need to absolutely use one specific pokemon to do it?

The desire for Alain to be Ash's rival in XY is a natural one. Alain is depicted as being strong and very motivated to become stronger. He has a Mega Charizard X that is very powerful, able to fight Elite Four. And he has his own dedicated Mega Evolution Specials. Ash doesn't need personal grudges to form a rivalry with Alain.

if Ash doesn't need to have a grudge with the man, then does Greninja need to be used against him?

The reason why the sinnoh team had to be used against Paul was because he kept putting them down, Alain never put down Ash's pokemon once, so why should Ash need one specific pokemon to fight this guy? Also considering he has the gimmick now himself, you don't think Alain might want to fight Lucario instead to see how Ash is with it?

The sheer fact that Alain is powerful and more importantly, the one trainer Ash has yet to beat, is enough to fill in the narrative. At least better than most other champions.

Of all the people in this thing, Ash has fought Leon, Diantha, Iris and Alain, with the first two he's only battled their aces (roughing up Diantha's abit), the latter two he's beaten Iris, and came down to the wire against Alain.

You don't think people might want him to fight others because he hasn't either fought them in full or at all, and it's more unique as we won't know who gets used or how the fights go?

A battle with Alain is pretty much already written, unless Greninja doesn't return but I know people don't want that, that to me is boring, and shouldn't happen in a tournament like this. Cause how is it exciting when a battle's narrative is only about 2 pokemon and one being forced to win over the other just to appease people all because they fell into a hype trap?

 

[Shadao]

when you consider how much more intense his rivalries with Gary and Paul were due to them being jerks , i'd say it's not completely necessary but it helps

And sometimes, it doesn't. Remember Trip? Who was also a jerk? Yeah, some rivalry there.

But does he need to absolutely use one specific pokemon to do it?

If Ash brought his Sinnoh team to battle Paul, I think it's in his character to do so.

if Ash doesn't need to have a grudge with the man, then does Greninja need to be used against him?

The reason why the sinnoh team had to be used against Paul was because he kept putting them down, Alain never put down Ash's pokemon once, so why should Ash need one specific pokemon to fight this guy? Also considering he has the gimmick now himself, you don't think Alain might want to fight Lucario instead to see how Ash is with it?

I was mainly talking about how Ash vs Alain is a likely match up in the Master 8 given how Alain's inevitable defeat would not have impact if he never actually battles Ash. But if you want to ask why bring Greninja back, the answer has always been to see how far Ash and Greninja's strength have grown since last time.

That's also why there is desire for Infernape to come back and fight Cynthia. There is no grudge between Ash and Cynthia, but fighting Cynthia with Infernape would be a chance to see how far Ash and Infernape have grown.

Of all the people in this thing, Ash has fought Leon, Diantha, Iris and Alain, with the first two he's only battled their aces (roughing up Diantha's abit), the latter two he's beaten Iris, and came down to the wire against Alain.

You don't think people might want him to fight others because he hasn't either fought them in full or at all, and it's more unique as we won't know who gets used or how the fights go?

A battle with Alain is pretty much already written, unless Greninja doesn't return but I know people don't want that, that to me is boring, and shouldn't happen in a tournament like this. Cause how is it exciting when a battle's narrative is only about 2 pokemon and one being forced to win over the other just to appease people all because they fell into a hype trap?

Like with Volkner? Or Korrina? Ash didn't have to fight them, but that didn't stop the writers from doing so. But these battles, especially the Volkner battle, shows that even a predictable rematch can be very new and refreshing with the right strategy and learning curve.

Really, everyone wants to battle them all. Not 3 of the 7. All of them. But if there can only be three, then it's natural for fans to pick fan favorites just to see how everyone improved.

 

[AJ97]

Stronger trainers do not make a good narrative compared to a trainer that Ash knows well. Was the battle against Tobias more superior than Paul's because Tobias is clearly a better established and stronger trainer?

Narratively, the Champions that have most narrative juice for Ash are Leon, Cythnia, Alain, Iris, and Lance. And Ash already beat Iris, so we can cross her off the potential list. While Ash has interacted with Diantha and Steven, it's not as well defined compared to the likes of the five I mentioned above. They may be powerful, but have no narrative stakes because we know Ash is gonna beat them since he's going to face Leon regardless.

Ash battling Alain would not be underwhelming because Ash has personal experience of how strong Alain is. The perfect time for flashbacks and recalling how Ash almost won but didn't manage to deliver the final blow. Alain's sudden reappearance may cause Ash to remember the Lumoise Conference finals and realize that he was this close to winning the battle. And rather than remember the good times, he's now thinking about how to avoid a repeat. A lot can be done with Alain rematch.

In contrast, Diantha and Steven would be glorified Gym battles. Nothing exactly putting Ash on edge if he has 3 matches.

"Glorified Gym battles" lol.

Ash to date has always shown to be vastly inferior to Elite four Members and Regional Champions.
The first time we see Ash even approach a level relative to this was back in Kalos and that was only with Ash Greninja.

Even throughout the anime so far, the Wallace battle was not shown on screen, the Drasna battle was messed up and the Iris battle didn't have the same level of magnitude because her character was once shown to be inferior or at the very least, relative to one of the weakest Iterations of Ash and her appearing as a Regional Champion now just didn't come with the same level of impact like the remaining Regional Champions.

The first closest to this magnitude of a battle we see is against Raihan who was more or less established as a Regional Champion this generation. Now finally, in the PWC we have well established Master Class Trainers who Ash after more than a decade, has finally approached relative to in terms of skill and can face against them in an all stakes battle, and you call these glorified gym leader battles?

If anything, the battle against Alain would be a glorified MCX and Ash Greninja battle. Even if Ash did lose the Kalos league (Which very likely happened given the release of the Alola games at the time and not having time to show Ash take part in the Champions League after etc), we saw a really good battle with excellent choreography and animation. All we can expect in this fight is going to be another all power rematch between Ash Greninja / MCX without any level of strategy of any other unique twists in the battle and it's very unlikely they are going to be able to top a battle that was done very well is Kalos despite the end result.

However, the other Regional Champions still have a lot more room to work with.
As @Almighty Zard stated, battle against the Regional Champions would actually be the kind of battles we want to see in the Master Class which combines, strategy, skill, power and unpredictability and these should be the kind of battles that determine the strongest trainer in the world.

Again, Alain is a nobody in the Master Class. If Ash went it to the Kalos League Alain battle with all of his reserves, "He probably would've won the way he defeated Drake back in the Orange Islands". The whole "Rivalry" or whatever with Alain simply rests on Ash Greninja and MCX.
This can be settled outside the Master Class or in the form of Ash Greninja defeating a Pokemon that defeats MCX.

 

[anipokefan]

You guys are fighting over something that doesn't really matter, the general cognitive of people at seeing Alain in the top M8 is immediately a rematch with Ash, that also it's tied with Greninja, not being able to see that just means you are in denial.

However I think they wrote themselves into a corner with Ash-Greninja flashback and Alain in M8
Both of these choices were completely unnecessary, they did nothing more than fuel people expectations and in this case they are justified.

Aura tied somehow to Greninja's ability, such thing that was never implied until 108, now don't get me wrong, that is not that a big of a issue itself, but I still think it was way too convenient for Lucario, I would just call it lazy writing and the infamous retcon of the form in the flashback (it's a recton, google the definition if you want) can make you think that they really wanted to recton it, reasonably speaking that is completely stupid from their part, they sincerely gain NOTHING from it, other than a well justified backlash, there's also the fact that Ash himself explains to Goh at the beginning of the episode what happens with Greninja when they battle, this clearly hinting at Ash-Greninja, so I see this as a huge contradiction in the episode itself, which I still don't know what was the intention behind it.

Now you may say, "they removed the form because it would have taken the spotlight from Lucario" or "they removed the form because they are hiding it for a new one" but both of these are wrong, because if that was their intention then they literally could've put flashbacks of base Greninja, that way you keep the atention on Lucario and at the same time you make people think you are hiding his form in purpose, in fact removing the form from these flashbacks did exactly the opposite, you basically force people to believe you are hiding it (because nobody could understand how stupid would be to retcon it) and you deliberately shift the atention of the episode from Lucario to this flashback.

With Alain is kinda the same, I'm not saying that he's not good enough to be in M8, I'm saying that is unnecessary for him to here, because as I said, the moment people know Alain was here they immediately directed all their attention towards him and a possible rematch with Ash, hell he was even trending lol.

It's a contradiction to "hype" and foreshadow so much a possible match vs Lance to then add Alain and shift all the attention to him.
Obviously this doesn't matter if Ash end up fighting Lance and Alain but it's a bit unlikely he will given the fact how the tournament is supposed to work.

I really don't know if the directors of these series are really inept at their jobs and are so out of touch with the community that they can't see how these decisions can create false expectations that later if they aren't fullfiled, they can convert into another deserved backlash..

Either that or this is just the worst way they could set up a rematch for a pity apology of the Kalos league.

Like seriously what do they want us to think when they give us Greninja return, deliberately remove the form but at the same time they tease it with Goh not getting what Ash is saying about it, and then just after Alain appears in the M8, I'm having a hard time to accept these decisions aren't intentional, they have a purpose obviously, what purpose that is.. I don't know.

 

[Shadao]

"Glorified Gym battles" lol.

Ash to date has always shown to be vastly inferior to Elite four Members and Regional Champions.
The first time we see Ash even approach a level relative to this was back in Kalos and that was only with Ash Greninja.

Even throughout the anime so far, the Wallace battle was not shown on screen, the Drasna battle was messed up and the Iris battle didn't have the same level of magnitude because her character was once shown to be inferior or at the very least, relative to one of the weakest Iterations of Ash and her appearing as a Regional Champion now just didn't come with the same level of impact like the remaining Regional Champions.

The first closest to this magnitude of a battle we see is against Raihan who was more or less established as a Regional Champion this generation. Now finally, in the PWC we have well established Master Class Trainers who Ash after more than a decade, has finally approached relative to in terms of skill and can face against them in an all stakes battle, and you call these glorified gym leader battles?

If anything, the battle against Alain would be a glorified MCX and Ash Greninja battle. Even if Ash did lose the Kalos league (Which very likely happened given the release of the Alola games at the time and not having time to show Ash take part in the Champions League after etc), we saw a really good battle with excellent choreography and animation. All we can expect in this fight is going to be another all power rematch between Ash Greninja / MCX without any level of strategy of any other unique twists in the battle and it's very unlikely they are going to be able to top a battle that was done very well is Kalos despite the end result.

However, the other Regional Champions still have a lot more room to work with.
As @Almighty Zard stated, battle against the Regional Champions would actually be the kind of battles we want to see in the Master Class which combines, strategy, skill, power and unpredictability and these should be the kind of battles that determine the strongest trainer in the world.

Again, Alain is a nobody in the Master Class. If Ash went it to the Kalos League Alain battle with all of his reserves, "He probably would've won the way he defeated Drake back in the Orange Islands". The whole "Rivalry" or whatever with Alain simply rests on Ash Greninja and MCX.
This can be settled outside the Master Class or in the form of Ash Greninja defeating a Pokemon that defeats MCX.

Because that's what the Elite Four and the Regional Champions really are. Drasna, Raihan, Lance and Iris specialize in Dragon Types and Steven specializes in Steel Types. Only Leon, Cynthia, and Diantha are considered variable types.

And only Leon and Cynthia are the must have Ash battle them because Ash has been interacting with these two the most prior to the battle.

Honeslty, the is argument has become less of how likely it is for Ash to battle Alain and more of a wishlist of what you want from the Master 8 regardless of the tall-telling signs. Why choose Alain if he isn't going to battle Ash? They could have gone with Alder. Why hide Ash-Greninja? Why even bring him back and remind us that he's one of the most powerful Pokémon that Ash has?

The only reason you argue against Ash vs Alain rematch isn't because you think it's unlikely, but because you don't want it to happen. And it's funny, because that was the same attitude when people were speculating that Alain would become Ash's rival in XY based on several openings, mention of Ash in a Mega Evolution special, etc.

 

[AJ97]

Because that's what the Elite Four and the Regional Champions really are. Drasna, Raihan, Lance and Iris specialize in Dragon Types and Steven specializes in Steel Types. Only Leon, Cynthia, and Diantha are considered variable types.

And only Leon and Cynthia are the must have Ash battle them because Ash has been interacting with these two the most prior to the battle.

Honeslty, the is argument has become less of how likely it is for Ash to battle Alain and more of a wishlist of what you want from the Master 8 regardless of the tall-telling signs. Why choose Alain if he isn't going to battle Ash? They could have gone with Alder. Why hide Ash-Greninja? Why even bring him back and remind us that he's one of the most powerful Pokémon that Ash has?

The only reason you argue against Ash vs Alain rematch isn't because you think it's unlikely, but because you don't want it to happen. And it's funny, because that was the same attitude when people were speculating that Alain would become Ash's rival in XY based on several openings, mention of Ash in a Mega Evolution special, etc.

1) "Only Leon and Cynthia are must have battles..."
- Not necessary. You also forgot about Iris including their supposed "Promise" to have a rematch in the master class.

2) "The only reason you argue against .... Mega evolution special, etc"
Firstly, what bearing does the Mega Evolution special bit have to do with any of this? If anything, it was obvious that Alain was going to be the one who fights Ash in the Kalos League given the fact that Ash's main Rival in Kalos (Was shown to be a newbie and someone inferior to Ash) and it was a lot less likely for him to be the one who defeats Ash in the Kalos League. Plus, Ash winning the Kalos league was very unlikely to begin with as the Sun and Moon Games were right around the corner and if Ash did win the Kalos League, they would've had to address the "Champions League" or whatever that happens after and there simply wasn't time for that. That said even logically, I personally had no issue with Ash losing that battle as Ash Greninja was far less experienced than Alain's Charizard. It wasn't like the case of Sinnoh where a random nobody was brought in with a bunch of unexplained legendaries and in Unova where Ash had the most embarrassing defeat in his career as a trainer.

All that said, if this was any series other than journeys, Ash would've like battled Alain, Cynthia & Leon in that Order. However, this series has been far from predictable and has been filled with surprises and unexpected twists. So it definitely is not outside the realm of possibility for Ash to even battle Steven and Diantha or literally anyone else.
I mean, even right now, you're assuming the PWC is a direct knockout. If there is a different format, Ash could very well battle everyone in the Master Class.

And yes, objectively, given that the battles in the Master Class are supposed to focus on Ash's Growth as a trainer and him approaching the level of Worlds strongest trainer, a battle against Alain would simply be underwhelming as that would simply be focusing on Greninja's Growth, or perhaps the even worse scenario of (Lucario possibly taking Greninja's place and winning).