The great Reserve debate

[Bortgreen]

there is war over everything they do in this show, heck if their rematch isn't some glorious masterpiece (Since i've seen people talk about this alot with Ash's recent fights) people will complain.

Also, if we get an indication that greninja won't be able to make it, then I'm sure people are going to hope they don't fight.

The staff surely opened a can of worms trying to bring back XYZ elements
Not that it would be different if they didn't

 

[Shadao]

Firstly, what bearing does the Mega Evolution special bit have to do with any of this? If anything, it was obvious that Alain was going to be the one who fights Ash in the Kalos League given the fact that Ash's main Rival in Kalos (Was shown to be a newbie and someone inferior to Ash) and it was a lot less likely for him to be the one who defeats Ash in the Kalos League. Plus, Ash winning the Kalos league was very unlikely to begin with as the Sun and Moon Games were right around the corner and if Ash did win the Kalos League, they would've had to address the "Champions League" or whatever that happens after and there simply wasn't time for that. That said even logically, I personally had no issue with Ash losing that battle as Ash Greninja was far less experienced than Alain's Charizard. It wasn't like the case of Sinnoh where a random nobody was brought in with a bunch of unexplained legendaries and in Unova where Ash had the most embarrassing defeat in his career as a trainer.

Oh no, I remember the debates back then. Many believed that Alain was going to be an exclusive side character to promote Mega Evolution or just be involved with Team Flare stuff. And many cited the fact that Alain has shown no interest in collecting Gym Badges prior to meeting Ash. Just because it's obvious in hindsight doesn't mean it was easily predictable back then.

All that said, if this was any series other than journeys, Ash would've like battled Alain, Cynthia & Leon in that Order. However, this series has been far from predictable and has been filled with surprises and unexpected twists. So it definitely is not outside the realm of possibility for Ash to even battle Steven and Diantha or literally anyone else.
I mean, even right now, you're assuming the PWC is a direct knockout. If there is a different format, Ash could very well battle everyone in the Master Class.

I'm merely basing it on what was presented at the beginning of Journeys regarding PWC: That there would be three rounds in the Master Rank. While I would prefer a Round Robin match up (mainly because that means Ash gets to fight more Champions), I am aware that there are limitations and thus you have to work with what you have.

And let me make it clear, the thought of Greninja coming back to the Master 8 Battles didn't occur to me until I heard rumors of Alain being one of the Master 8. Rumors that turn out to be true.

And with Alain's return, I look back to that Infernape episode and wonder... is that more just a showcase episode of a fan favorite Pokémon? Perhaps... it's foreshadowing Ash bringing Infernape to battle Cynthia? That's the funny thing about hype. It doesn't occur until the writers or leaks imply certain things to happen.

 

[Almighty Zard]

And sometimes, it doesn't. Remember Trip? Who was also a jerk? Yeah, some rivalry there.

Ash only bested trip 1 time in battle, and it was cathartic to see Pikachu avenge it's loss at the beginning of unova...to some degree.

Then again unova is a saga best left forgotten at least with Ash's story there.

If Ash brought his Sinnoh team to battle Paul, I think it's in his character to do so.

Because Paul kept putting them down so they had a reason to be used against him, Alain never once put down Greninja.

But if you want to ask why bring Greninja back, the answer has always been to see how far Ash and Greninja's strength have grown since last time.

yes, strength obtained from being completely apart...and people give his current team hate for all the "offscreen training." they do.

You guys are fighting over something that doesn't really matter, the general cognitive of people at seeing Alain in the top M8 is immediately a rematch with Ash, that also it's tied with Greninja, not being able to see that just means you are in denial.

If you think it's guaranteed your only setting yourself up for disappointment if it doesn't happen.

If Greninja gets used sure it's the writers choice, but it's not like they have to do it, they could just have Ash use his current team for the whole thing as they are the ones who got him here, it's too early to tell what's going to happen for certain.

I really don't know if the directors of these series are really inept at their jobs and are so out of touch with the community that they can't see how these decisions can create false expectations that later if they aren't fullfiled, they can convert into another deserved backlash..

The writers love to bait people in and trick them, they've been doing this since the series started, even in this current saga we've had instances of people being tricked or bad decisions being made, what's to stop them from continuing this?

Also they could easily have Alain go against Leon, the latter eliminating him in a "Charizard" duel, or have him lose to Steven since they never finished their fight in the second ME special due to Lsyandre.

Acting like you think you know what's going to happen because of so called "clues" in the masters 8 is only going to lead to disappointment, which is what i'm wanting people to avoid, but it can not be helped.

I'm merely basing it on what was presented at the beginning of Journeys regarding PWC: That there would be three rounds in the Master Rank. While I would prefer a Round Robin match up (mainly because that means Ash gets to fight more Champions), I am aware that there are limitations and thus you have to work with what you have.

if they have a round robin that takes all the champion meat off the table, they need to leave some so Ash has more to chew on..i mean fight in the future.

 

[Shadao]

Hype is only generated when the show provides the evidence.

As I've said before, I never thought Greninja would actually join the Master 8 battles prior to Alain's return. At best, I thought he would train Lucario and reaffirm that Ash has never really released him (especially with Goh's Suicune redefining "release").

But Alain coming back? How does one not get the idea of Alain vs Ash rematch in their heads? Even the naysayers admit that the mere presence of Alain in the Master 8 almost guarantees an Ash-Greninja vs Mega Charizard X rematch because otherwise, why even bring him back?

To blame the fans for overhyping is to ignore the fact that the writers could have chosen a different path but didn't. And it was very easy to do so. Pokémon has a lot of champions and Elite Fours to choose from the pool instead of Alain.

And besides, if Ash-Greninja comes back, that increases the chance of Ash's Infernape being in the Cynthia match. And that's a lot of hype there.

 

[Blood Red]

You guys are fighting over something that doesn't really matter, the general cognitive of people at seeing Alain in the top M8 is immediately a rematch with Ash, that also it's tied with Greninja, not being able to see that just means you are in denial.

However I think they wrote themselves into a corner with Ash-Greninja flashback and Alain in M8
Both of these choices were completely unnecessary, they did nothing more than fuel people expectations and in this case they are justified.

Aura tied somehow to Greninja's ability, such thing that was never implied until 108, now don't get me wrong, that is not that a big of a issue itself, but I still think it was way too convenient for Lucario, I would just call it lazy writing and the infamous retcon of the form in the flashback (it's a recton, google the definition if you want) can make you think that they really wanted to recton it, reasonably speaking that is completely stupid from their part, they sincerely gain NOTHING from it, other than a well justified backlash, there's also the fact that Ash himself explains to Goh at the beginning of the episode what happens with Greninja when they battle, this clearly hinting at Ash-Greninja, so I see this as a huge contradiction in the episode itself, which I still don't know what was the intention behind it.

Now you may say, "they removed the form because it would have taken the spotlight from Lucario" or "they removed the form because they are hiding it for a new one" but both of these are wrong, because if that was their intention then they literally could've put flashbacks of base Greninja, that way you keep the atention on Lucario and at the same time you make people think you are hiding his form in purpose, in fact removing the form from these flashbacks did exactly the opposite, you basically force people to believe you are hiding it (because nobody could understand how stupid would be to retcon it) and you deliberately shift the atention of the episode from Lucario to this flashback.

With Alain is kinda the same, I'm not saying that he's not good enough to be in M8, I'm saying that is unnecessary for him to here, because as I said, the moment people know Alain was here they immediately directed all their attention towards him and a possible rematch with Ash, hell he was even trending lol.

It's a contradiction to "hype" and foreshadow so much a possible match vs Lance to then add Alain and shift all the attention to him.
Obviously this doesn't matter if Ash end up fighting Lance and Alain but it's a bit unlikely he will given the fact how the tournament is supposed to work.

I really don't know if the directors of these series are really inept at their jobs and are so out of touch with the community that they can't see how these decisions can create false expectations that later if they aren't fullfiled, they can convert into another deserved backlash..

Either that or this is just the worst way they could set up a rematch for a pity apology of the Kalos league.

Like seriously what do they want us to think when they give us Greninja return, deliberately remove the form but at the same time they tease it with Goh not getting what Ash is saying about it, and then just after Alain appears in the M8, I'm having a hard time to accept these decisions aren't intentional, they have a purpose obviously, what purpose that is.. I don't know.

I agree with all of this. They, whether deliberately or on accident, created an environment perfect for heavy speculation and anticipation. Ash vs Alain (especially Greninja vs Charizard) is still a sore spot for many people who watched that match, which is why it got to trending. It's gotten to the point where it's not even about Ash or Greninja getting revenge anymore; some people just want personal revenge, due to how the ending to this battle made them feel.

It's childish as heck, but what'd you expect from people who still watch a cartoon for kids, especially when their reason for doing so is mostly childhood nostalgia and an attachment to the main character?

 

[ShadowForce720]

Oh no, I remember the debates back then. Many believed that Alain was going to be an exclusive side character to promote Mega Evolution or just be involved with Team Flare stuff. And many cited the fact that Alain has shown no interest in collecting Gym Badges prior to meeting Ash. Just because it's obvious in hindsight doesn't mean it was easily predictable back then.


I'm merely basing it on what was presented at the beginning of Journeys regarding PWC: That there would be three rounds in the Master Rank. While I would prefer a Round Robin match up (mainly because that means Ash gets to fight more Champions), I am aware that there are limitations and thus you have to work with what you have.

And let me make it clear, the thought of Greninja coming back to the Master 8 Battles didn't occur to me until I heard rumors of Alain being one of the Master 8. Rumors that turn out to be true.

And with Alain's return, I look back to that Infernape episode and wonder... is that more just a showcase episode of a fan favorite Pokémon? Perhaps... it's foreshadowing Ash bringing Infernape to battle Cynthia? That's the funny thing about hype. It doesn't occur until the writers or leaks imply certain things to happen.

Also when looking at Greninja’s return they could have easily featured Ash-Greninja at the very least in the flashbacks and yet they chose to hide the form and just have it replaced in the flashbacks by standard Greninja.

Sure this doesn’t guarantee it will show up but looking back at how Serena’s returned was handled, she wasn’t in the flashback when Ash reunited with Clemont and Bonnie and yet that didn’t prevent her from returning.

Ash only bested trip 1 time in battle, and it was cathartic to see Pikachu avenge it's loss at the beginning of unova...to some degree.

Then again unova is a saga best left forgotten at least with Ash's story there.


Because Paul kept putting them down so they had a reason to be used against him, Alain never once put down Greninja.


yes, strength obtained from being completely apart...and people give his current team hate for all the "offscreen training." they do.



If you think it's guaranteed your only setting yourself up for disappointment if it doesn't happen.

If Greninja gets used sure it's the writers choice, but it's not like they have to do it, they could just have Ash use his current team for the whole thing as they are the ones who got him here, it's too early to tell what's going to happen for certain.


The writers love to bait people in and trick them, they've been doing this since the series started, even in this current saga we've had instances of people being tricked or bad decisions being made, what's to stop them from continuing this?

Also they could easily have Alain go against Leon, the latter eliminating him in a "Charizard" duel, or have him lose to Steven since they never finished their fight in the second ME special due to Lsyandre.

Acting like you think you know what's going to happen because of so called "clues" in the masters 8 is only going to lead to disappointment, which is what i'm wanting people to avoid, but it can not be helped.



if they have a round robin that takes all the champion meat off the table, they need to leave some so Ash has more to chew on..i mean fight in the future.

And they could easily have Ash and Alain have a rematch in the Masters 8. Sure there is nothing stopping them from tricking people or making bad decisions but that can literally said about anything.

No offense but in all honesty you claim that your just trying to prevent people from hyping themselves up and getting disappointed but it seems more like your trying to kill any speculation on Ash vs Alain in the Masters 8 because you personally don’t like the match up.


I mean heck by going by your own logic then one could argue that Ash will battle Iris but won’t battle Leon. Yet obviously you don’t argue this because you don’t want that scenario to happen.


Sure those match ups aren’t guaranteed to happen but that is the same case with all match ups.


At the end of the day there are opponents that Ash is more likely to face then others, sure it’s not guaranteed that Ash will face Alain however Ash vs Alain is a more likely match up then some others.


Also there are going to be people disappointed in the match’s up regardless in who Ash faces since he probably isn’t going to battle all the members of the Masters 8 unless it winds up being a different format instead of the single elimination format.

When people are speculating on the match ups there are naturally going to be match ups that people will think more likely then others.

 

[Broseph08]

Precisely, the other 2 commenters are simply Alain/Kalos stans obsessing over the rematch.
Alain was undoubtedly a very big deal back in Kalos and I still consider Ash's performance against him his greatest feat (Until Journeys). Even above his Alola League victory or battle against Kukui which some people seem to rate higher.

That said, Alain from Kalos is severely outclassed by the majority of the Master Class challengers. Unless they further develop his character and establish him to be even stronger by perhaps defeating a noteworthy champion like Steven Round 1, it would be underwhelming to see Ash battle him when they are clearly better established and stronger trainers in the master class.

Plus, Alain as a round 2 matchup would still suck IMO as Ash would then potentially be fighting 2 back to back Charizard aces. Granted, G-Max Charizard and MCX are different, but still, it would be underwhelming given the number of options available.

Personally, I would prefer a variation of what @Almighty Zard suggested where Ash and Alain battle outside the Master Class (Or Ash Greninja defeating a pokemon MCX doesn't defeat).

If the PWC is a direct knockout tournament with Ash potentially having only 3 matches, they could have an Ash vs Cynthia (Round 1 with the match against Paul being the training/preparation for this) and then have Ash battle against Steven/Diantha (The one who defeats Alain Round 1) in the semi-finals, and maybe here, Alain finds out about the vines in Kalos and offers to hold down the fort and allow Ash to use Ash Greninja for the next battle. Plus, in preparation for this battle, they could have a rematch between Ash Greninja and MCX.

Yeah I watched it again this morning and it felt like Steven was honestly toying with Alain. They def are nowhere near the same level so that is honestly why I would rather Ash battle trainers that have been shown to be stronger personally. I def don't really see them as being on the same level. I'd prefer a friendly match with just Greninja vs. Mega Zard but a round 1 match could work albeit it'll def be a filler before we get to see Ash fight the truly legendary trainers like Cynthia and co.

 

[desdar300]

Every day I come back to the debates and always leave believing that olm are a bunch of wankers.

I don't think anybody would believe reserves are coming back in some capacity if this series wasn't essentially the Champion League that we never got.

At this point I'm just up in the stadium with the rest of Game Freak watching this disasterpeace unfold.

Ash's current team of nobodies beating video game Champions is definitely going to look good on their portfolio oh, but it's going to probably leave a bitter taste in people's mouths that the likes of Infernape and Company might be left in the dust of what would've been a bookends.

I'll be watching this mess from afar until game freak decides to give us anything on Scarlett and violet so have at it fellas

 

[LucasMV]

Yeah I watched it again this morning and it felt like Steven was honestly toying with Alain. They def are nowhere near the same level so that is honestly why I would rather Ash battle trainers that have been shown to be stronger personally. I def don't really see them as being on the same level. I'd prefer a friendly match with just Greninja vs. Mega Zard but a round 1 match could work albeit it'll def be a filler before we get to see Ash fight the truly legendary trainers like Cynthia and co.

While I agree that all the Champions (except maybe Iris) are stronger than XY Alain, let's not forget that time has passed in between XY and JN. Not too long ago, DP Ash was being toyed with by Flint, who's now not even part of the M8. So, of course that if Ash can close the gap, so could Alain.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Every day I come back to the debates and always leave believing that olm are a bunch of wankers.

I don't think anybody would believe reserves are coming back in some capacity if this series wasn't essentially the Champion League that we never got.

At this point I'm just up in the stadium with the rest of Game Freak watching this disasterpeace unfold.

Ash's current team of nobodies beating video game Champions is definitely going to look good on their portfolio oh, but it's going to probably leave a bitter taste in people's mouths that the likes of Infernape and Company might be left in the dust of what would've been a bookends.

I'll be watching this mess from afar until game freak decides to give us anything on Scarlett and violet so have at it fellas

UHH GRENINJA NEEDS A BOOKEND THE MOST

 

[World Turtle]

Next series I want rotation. Like forget characters of the day let’s make Ash’s Pokémon the focus of episodes. If the anime staff wants to do an episode about a certain Pokémon and Ash has it? Make it about them. It’d Give us a reason to get invested compared to someone we’ll never see again.

 

[Broseph08]

While I agree that all the Champions (except maybe Iris) are stronger than XY Alain, let's not forget that time has passed in between XY and JN. Not too long ago, DP Ash was being toyed with by Flint, who's now not even part of the M8. So, of course that if Ash can close the gap, so could Alain.

I feel like that will only really work if they fight in the second round and Alain beats a top trainer in Round 1 which I think is unlikely (I'm assuming Cynthia has that semi-final match on lock). If that does happen though, I agree that it would have showed that he closed the gap significantly and deserves to be there. But if it's a round 1 fight, it's hard not to consider this a filler fight against someone not as good just to close the chapter on the Kalos league

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Tbh I would have rathered Paul be in the Masters 8 rather than Alain for narrative reasons, but I also desperately want an Ash vs Alain rematch (although I hoped it would have been outside PWC)
Atleast Paul is returning though so there's that
It would be a waste though if we don't get Ash vs Alain, which I do think is likely if we don't have a round robin format coz I'm honestly pretty sure he's definitely fighting Lance, Cynthia and Leon

 

[Ragnarok4]

Ash will not use reserves, he will win with his Friendship Power-Lucario

 

[Belowski]

With Ash only battling 3 people, I don't see the point.

 

[Shadao]

Ash will not use reserves, he will win with his Friendship Power-Lucario

Can you at least provide proof instead of making baseless claims? At least when I had doubts about Serena's return, I actually did provide possible proof and then reanalyze them when someone pointed out something I didn't realize initially.

With Ash only battling 3 people, I don't see the point.

So far, we saw showcase episodes for Infernape and Greninja in Journeys. Which is really interesting since I don't recall any of Ash's old Pokémon getting a dedicated episode beyond those two. Why doesn't Ash's Charizard get a showcase episode? Or Sceptile?

Then consider the two highest contenders of Ash's Master 8 opponents (aside from Leon).

Cynthia and Alain.

One is the Sinnoh Champion that always plays on Ash's fantasy of battling her, which tends to occur whenever Flint's Infernape is on the battlefield against Cynthia. The other is the Kalos League Conference Winner known for a Mega Charizard X that a certain Greninja has yet to beat.

One cannot help but wonder if those episodes were foreshadowing their role for the Master 8.

 

[Ragnarok4]

Can you at least provide proof instead of making baseless claims? At least when I had doubts about Serena's return, I actually did provide possible proof and then reanalyze them when someone pointed out something I didn't realize initially.

I will especially ask you, who always write comments that I really like, to ignore me. This is just one of my ways to let off steam, I'm going to imagine that Ash will not use reserves, to have more low expectations.

 

[AJ97]

While I agree that all the Champions (except maybe Iris) are stronger than XY Alain, let's not forget that time has passed in between XY and JN. Not too long ago, DP Ash was being toyed with by Flint, who's now not even part of the M8. So, of course that if Ash can close the gap, so could Alain.

Totally agree. However, in order to showcase this growth, they would need Alain to step in and defeat one of the big wigs like Cynthia or Steven in an actual battle.
As of now, he is far less established than everyone in the master class with the exception of Iris. Hence, Ash battling him in the first round would be underwhelming.

 

[Shadao]

Oh Mighty Sinnoh, I just realized something!

If Ash's Infernape battles Cynthia in the Master 8, this would not be the first time the Flame Pokémon fought the Sinnoh Champion.

He battled Cynthia's Garchomp under Paul as Chimchar. And of course lost.

But if Ash beats Cynthia with Infernape, he would not only defeat one of the most powerful Champions in the world, he would also once again prove himself to be better than Paul.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Precisely, the other 2 commenters are simply Alain/Kalos stans obsessing over the rematch.

Sorry, but if this is a dig at me - likely, given your refusal to respond to my last post but the way you did respond to someone agreeing with a post you made during our discussion - as I said before you need to entirely rethink the way you have approached this thread.

I'd advise you to go through my posting history and see what you can find to back that statement up (hint: there's nothing), then to apologise - or just deny you were talking about me, of course.