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The huge problem with the argument for Pokemon Let's Go appealing to casuals.

Discussion in 'Let's Go, Pikachu & Eevee' started by shoz999, Jun 16, 2018.

?

Are you excited by this new detailed cinematic 3D adventure take on Kanto?

Poll closed Sep 2, 2018.
  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. No

    7 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. MidnightMelody

    MidnightMelody Hopeful for Gen 8

    My only issue GF making remakes of Gen IV only to re make them like a year or two down the road. But yeah I'm sure it would work out. I'm not worried I just actually want these games to do well since to me it looks more fun than the past two gens.

    These games I do hope keep things for the main series. Like following pokemon and event no wild battles. Or at the very least make wild battles like in FFXV where they are not so intrusive.
     
  2. furyfairyeryn

    furyfairyeryn Member

    The problem is, these aren't spinoffs. I think people are misunderstanding the structure here. These are remakes - they're, in some sense, the successor to FRLG/HGSS/ORAS. A redo of an old region/game with updated visuals and new features, complete with modified title (Yellow was "Pikachu version" in Japanese, so "Let's Go" is equivalent to "Fire" or "Heart" or "Omega" here in the title, with the second version being Eevee instead of Pikachu).

    What this means is that these may appeal to casual people, but they are still main series games just as much as ORAS are. They're still mostly the same mechanically, with the only major difference being how you capture Pokemon. You still travel a region, have a party of six Pokemon, turn based standard battles, fight Gym Leaders, battle an evil team, and then proceed to the Elite Four/Champion.

    The casualizing and unusual mechanics are just for this game. It isn't unusual at all for remakes to include strange, experimental things that may or may not see further use. Following Pokemon, weird minigames, additional content after the Elite Four, even experimenting with menu layouts and the ingame device functions (Pokegear etc).

    Remember that GF confirmed that Gen 8 will *not* be taking after LGPE, and that GF has likely been working on Gen 8 for some time already. Combine that fact with the usual pattern of remake features, and you get a clear result:

    LGPE's features are likely to be exclusive to it, unless it somehow ends up getting a successor in the future. The fact of the matter is, it's just a main series Gen VII remake with some bizarre mechanical quirks.

    The good news is, it's not going to severely impact the main series, just as remakes generally don't. Many of the more experimental things in remakes do not get ported over to main series games, sometimes glaringly so (following Pokemon, anyone?). If anything, the allowance for focus on less skilled players allows GF to weigh Gen 8 more in the difficult direction. Since there will be a game that's for people who don't know how to play Pokemon, Gen 8 will probably be designed for people who DO know how to play Pokemon. They're not gonna be Dark Souls or anything, but I anticipate a higher level of difficulty in Gen 8 than any past game.

    The takeaway here is, past Pokemon games had to be balanced both for unskilled and skilled players. By creating an outlet for less skilled players, you allow the next game to be more skill-focused, and this is likely to be a good thing. So even if you're worried that LGPE will be too easy or that you aren't going to like them, the likely thing is that Gen 8 will be satisfying regardless, and to some extent, as a direct result of LGPE's success.
     
  3. Sulfurian

    Sulfurian Well-Known Member

    You still have fans that don't like natures, evs, or ivs. Yes, they exist. One of my best friends being one of them. So to have a spin off series for them is fine. Honestly they should have gotten this a long time ago. Pokemon go does not count.
     
    KenzeyEevee likes this.
  4. I feel like it is late to integrate GO in a main pokémon game.
     
  5. BCVM22

    BCVM22 Well-Known Member

    "Late" how? The franchise isn't going anywhere. It's not nearing any kind of end.

    Pokémon GO is only two years old, despite feeling like it's been around longer. And in the time since its debut, there have been two sets of core titles - Sun/Moon and their Ultra iterations. Neither development time nor the 3DS hardware allowed for any kind of GO integration into those games, as both Sun/Moon and US/UM would have been near completion or deep in development, respectively, at the time of GO's debut in summer 2016, and the 3DS has no Bluetooth connectivity.

    This is integration of GO into a core-adjacent title at the earliest opportunity to do so, not at any late date.
     
  6. ((JAWS))

    ((JAWS)) Johto Boy

    I think it’s good from a business perspective but rude to veterans. I’m kind of offended tbh.

    Like you have to bring a certain type to take on a gym? Really?

    Wild battles should be toggable. Like grass could disappear/reappear with the press of a button.

    But I think to some extent casual appeal can help the franchise grow and live on in a lot of ways. So I have mixed opinions.
     
  7. BCVM22

    BCVM22 Well-Known Member

    Wild battles aren't the sort of thing it would be feasible for them to add when they've built the battle system without them, and especially not feasible to add them as a toggle. That's a huge change when the game was built without them, much less to toggle on and off with the flip of a virtual switch.
     
  8. JohnLynch

    JohnLynch Well-Known Member

    My wife can name all 150 original Pokemon. She absolutely loved Pokemon Go long after I stopped playing (and still plays it on occassion even now). When I told her about Let's Go Pikachu she said "hell yeah we'll get that" and what's more, she really liked the fact we'd have a co-op mode. This is a woman who I haven't been able to convince to play the "real" Pokemon games, even when the Pokemon Go craze was at it's height and we were going around the neighbourhood looking for pokeballs and pokemon.

    For me, Let's Go is going to be a whole lot of fun to share the Pokemon experience with my wife. Even if it doesn't scratch the itch for me in what I want from a Pokemon game. I'm glad they've put this out and if it's successful enough I hope they release more Let's Go games. HOWEVER I also really want Gen 8 to be a "Breath of the Wild" pokemon game (minus the extreme open world aspect of BotW). I think there's room for both lines of games and I think they definitely have the potential to appeal to different people.
     
    BCVM22, shoz999, ((JAWS)) and 2 others like this.
  9. SBaby

    SBaby Dungeon Master

    That's the point though. They shouldn't have used Pokémon Go mechanics for the wild captures. They should have just used regular wild battles.

    Joe recently went on record to say Let's Go is probably the least hyped Pokémon game he's ever seen since starting this site.

    I guess my question is if you wanted a game with Pokémon Go mechanics, why would you pay to get one when you can already play it for free on mobile?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  10. lemoncatpower

    lemoncatpower Cynical optimist

    yay I didn't know this thread exists... it should honestly be called the negatives of lets go and the other thread be called the positives of lets go because it'll stop all the arguing going on and everyone complaining about the arguing :p The people with harsher opinions can stay here and people will excited opinions can stay on the other one :D

    But that's clearly up to the mods

    ANYWAYS here's an opinion with something negative:
    I am wary about the new capture method too and how you don't get to battle pokemon in the wild, it'll feel less like you're involved with the pokemon following you, but at least they're following you to set that off and show that you are with your pokemon, if you get what I mean here. I wish your pokemon would at least be out when you are in the wild pokemon encounter (cant call them wild pokemon battle anymore lol) so that it shows that it's sort of defending you from any attacks the wild pokemon could use, even though they don't use moves... so me being picky lmao.
     
  11. BCVM22

    BCVM22 Well-Known Member

    “Shouldn’t have” according to whom? They decided to use the GO capture mechanics and everything will probably work out just fine in the end. “Should” and “should not” are usually in the eye of the beshoulder as opposed to definitive indicators.
     
  12. SBaby

    SBaby Dungeon Master

    According to just about everyone that is disappointed with it. And based on what Joe himself said (about Let's Go having the worst engagement of any mainline Pokémon game on the site as far as he knows), that would be a significant portion of the fanbase.

    Not only that, but why should anybody be motivated to spend money on a mechanic that they can already play for free on mobile?

    Whole you're probably right in that they'll likely only use it for these two games (if they're smart), this isn't experimental at all, because they've had these mechanics in practice for over a year.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  13. BCVM22

    BCVM22 Well-Known Member

    "There are people who don't like something."
    "Who?"
    "The people who don't like it."
    "But why?"
    "Because they don't like it."

    What makes what these people have to say somehow more valid than the people who aren't bothered by it?
     
    lemoncatpower likes this.
  14. JohnLynch

    JohnLynch Well-Known Member

    Did you read what you quoted? I have no interest in Pokemon Go. I'm not going to play Pokemon Go and try to cobble a "co-op mode" with our two phones. But what I will do is sit down with my wife and watch her play Let's Go while playing Pokemon Ultra Sun or Crystal on my 3DS. I'll pick up the spare Switch controller from time to time and play co-op mode for a while. I personally have no interest in going through Kanto a 4th time (I've played Pokemon Red on Gameboy, Pokemon FireRed on Gameboy Advance and Pokemon Blue on Virtual Console). But for my wife, who has only seen the anime as a kid and watched over my shoulder briefly as I play various Pokemon games, Let's Go is a great way for her to transition from Pokemon Go to a console version. She might play Let's Go for a few hours and then put it aside as an unenjoyable game. But she might play it and really get into it and either want to play the 2019 Gen8 game or Let's Go Marill in 2020.

    As for Pokemon Fans not liking Let's Go (I'm one): A huge population of people played Pokemon Let's Go who've never played a mainline Pokemon game for years. A huge population of people bought a Switch who've never played a mainline Pokemon game for years. If these two groups have a big intersection there's a chance that Pokemon Let's Go will be bought by the population of Pokemon Go fans who own a Switch which results in good money for GameFreak and Nintendo in a year where no Pokemon game would have otherwise been published. Seems like a good chance at GameFreak and Nintendo making a decent return on their investment into Let's Go and depending on how well it goes it could result in continued revenue down the road.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
  15. Bolt the Cat

    Bolt the Cat Bringing the Thunder

    You mean people who played Go? Let's Go isn't out yet. Anyway, the problem is I don't think there's a big intersection between Go fans and Switch owners that haven't played a recent Pokemon game. In general, mobile gamers and console gamers have almost mutually exclusive preferences, mobile gamers tend to like short, simple games that they can play in small doses whereas console gamers tend to like deep, engaging experiences that they can immerse themselves in for hours on end. There might be some subset of fans that have flexible enough preferences to buy into either type of experiences, but since the recent Pokemon games have trended far more to the mobile side of things, they're probably already part of the existing base of 15 million fans, so I don't see Let's Go really growing the fanbase all that much.

    The demographic Game Freak is more likely to attract with the Switch is console gamers that have never bought a handheld and would have their first opportunity to play a Pokemon game because of the Switch's hybrid nature, people that bought consoles such as the N64, GC, Wii, Playstation, or Xbox. And that demographic is not going to be particularly impressed with Let's Go or any of Game Freak's past efforts, what's most likely to draw that demographic in is an ambitious, free roaming adventure game, the closer to BotW the better. At this point the only game that could really accomplish that right now is the 2019 game, but it's hard to really say if it can accomplish that without seeing any actual gameplay. They're used to games that are much bigger than the likes of XY and SM, there's been console games as old as Pokemon itself that outdo them, so it's hard to really see Game Freak drawing that group in unless the 2019 game is a massive step forward in map design and extra content for the series.
     
  16. dss_live

    dss_live Water and Fairy-type master

    And if that is true, and Let's go doesn't do well for all the reasons you've been mentioning, it won't become a series. They are testing the waters with these games. It might very well be a one off. Either way, it won't be the dead of pokemon. the game "most" have been waiting for will come a year after. And those type of games will keep coming, regardless of whether pokemon lets go is a succes or not. These games do not affect the main series, tehy've stated multiple times that is the case, they've been very vocal about the 2019 games to make sure people know that this is basically a test for a more casual audience. I very much doubt that even if Let's go ends up failing, it would have any lasting effect on the franchise at all. It seems pointless to worry about a side-series that doesn't affect the mainseries. It's just a pokemon game you're free to skip, there's been plenty of pokemon games that weren't the main game series i've skipped. And i'm very sure a lot of those spin offs didn't xactly pull amazing numbers or were liked all that much by the same group that won't like let's go.

    If it fails, it fails. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Eitehr way, i'll be playing the 2019 games regardless, like i've played the other main series games. The pokemon franchise is plenty big enough to have a game be less succesful without permanent damage. Seems silly to worry about that.
     
    Ducolamia likes this.
  17. Zipper4242

    Zipper4242 Bewear is the most powerful being in the universe.

    This is why I was hoping we'd get DP remakes simultaneously with Pokemon Switch. I'm all good with this game appealing to casuals, but I kind of think that unless they put in a BW2-esque challenge mode, the veteran fans and competitive players will just be bored. Like someone said earlier in this thread, there's just no meat here for the older players. We can just play FRLG or HGSS instead, both of which still hold up REALLY well, probably even considered to be classics at this point. Tbh, I'm not sure HOW LGPE will improve on those two, because it's incredibly hard to improve on perfection. I do think it will sell incredibly well, I do think it will bring tons of people to the franchise, I do think it will create hype for (conventional) Gen 8 games, but I don't think that it will be significant among the current fanbase.
     
  18. WhiteBlair

    WhiteBlair ベストチャンピオン。

    Because people are failing to understand that LGPE is neither a rival nor FRLG or HGSS' improvised version to outclass them. Rather, you'd count them as their remaster on HD.

    It is up to you to play the old version, as the new version aims for the '96 kids, who are now adults, to re-live moments with their children and to expand the community with newcomers aside fans except it is not traditional. Matter of a fact, there could have been an option where they would just reveal the Gen 8 at 2019, completely skipping 2018 with no titles. Titles may disappoint you with features, but business-wise it's a fine strategy to rack money while offering a set-up game for Switch to test, and later improve, the 2019 ones.
     
    Zipper4242 likes this.
  19. shoz999

    shoz999 Sonic's the name! Speed's my game!

    So I think we all know that GameFreak has revisited Kanto way too many times. In 2nd gen, it was a joyous post-game reward. By the third gen, we got decent remakes of Red and Blue in the form of FireRed and LeafGreen. In the 4th gen, we got what was still consider by many as a joyous post-game reward by many in HGSS. Around the time when 7th gen was released, we got Virtual Console gamse of Pokemon Red, Blue and Yellow where people could re-experience the experimental Pokemon 1st generation and transport their 1st gen Pokemon with exciting hidden abilities for Pokemon Sun and Moon. Thinking about it, revisiting Kanto a lot has not actually been a tiring experience for me. In fact I haven't revisited Kanto in a while now that I think about it and there are huge year-gaps in-between that add to it. It's actually been quite a fun adventure revisiting Kanto and honestly... I am really excited to revisit Kanto again in this huge remake full of so many details that remakes, FireRed and LeafGreen, just lacked and understandably so. Are you guys intrigued by this new much more detailed and cinematic take on Kanto that arguably and possibly makes Kanto feel more like it's own character, something Gen 5's Unova excelled in highly.

    The rest of this is just my opinion, and yes, huge remake at least for me personally. If you seen the trailers by now, you've notice that many many locations, character, and even in general the flow of the story has gotten a huge makeover. Lavender Town for example looks like a haunted yet strangely beautiful town full of purple. Fuschia City looks more like a city full of East-Asian style culture. If you know me, you know this is a huge deal for me. I've always said Kanto was the weakest region and one of the huge, and arguably important, reasons was it strongly lacked diversity in it's locations, something that Gen 5's Unova greatly excels in. In Unova every city, route and even caves felt like it's own unique environment with it's own unique atmosphere. Kanto doesn't really have a lot of that to begin with, in fact you can see just how bare-bones it can be in the remakes, FireRed and LeafGreen. Seeing these huge revamped makeovers to the cities in the Let's Go titles give Kanto more life and personality for me. Not just that but also the characters themselves and the locations within those locations seem to have more personality thanks to new 3D animations and visuals, like the S.S Anne of Vermillion City or Misty's Gym of Cerulean City. I've noticed that Cerulean Cave has especially had a huge makeover, being modeled after the crysallized-version in Pokemon Origins in great detail. On a closer look for characters, you can also see Brock having that gruff look on his face, Misty smiling at you for the first time, Surge having that cocky grin on his face, something that the original Red and Blue and it's remake counterparts lacked due to the heavy limitations of 2D graphics at the time, with the exception of Gen V. The new look for the Let's Go titles look gorgeous, not just because of the new revamp in graphics and artwork but because of the cinematic camera angles making these locations feel more impressive than it actually is. I haven't seen this kind of cinematic visuals since Gen V, yes Gen V. Gen V has always been my favorite generation because it represented the idea, to me at least, of what a great Pokemon generation should be and one way it did so was telling the story of not just you, the player's story, but telling the story of the world of Pokemon through amazing camera angles, like the first time you step onto a bridge towards Castelia City, you see trucks, roads, a vast city sky-line on the horizon or how you find yourself standing on top of a hill early on in BW2, not through some boring usual intro featuring the professor showing you a Pokemon, asking your name and gender, but in-game where you, as the character, stand next to the Professor as your about to get your first Pokemon in the calm serene morning on top of a hill, seeing the breathtaking visuals of the vast forests, hills and mountains that say, "Welcome to the world of Pokemon." The cinematic scene in the Let's Go trailers where you, the player, meets Professor Oak in Route 1 and later you meet your first Pokemon at the lab, looking at you, the main character, with a big smile reminds me of that moment. Sun and Moon also has this too but nowhere as grand and impressive as Black and White's, and it's a 2D DS game, which not only showcased a personal story, like SM, but also told the story of one other character, Unova the region and that's what it feels like for me when I'm seeing the cutscenes brought in by Let's Go Eevee and Pikachu. Kanto, the region, feels like an actual character in those trailers rather than the boring bare-bones region I knew from the remakes and original Red and Blue. It feels like Kanto is giving more character and personality as a whole which is why it's because of this re-exploring Kanto probably won't feel like revisiting an old bare-bones region with the same generic locations but instead revisiting a refreshing take on the Kanto region that tells you that hey, the Kanto region is a character all on it's own. Don't get me wrong though, I am disappointed that it won't have the Sevii Isles, that it's limited to the original 151 Pokemon, that the simplification of catching mechanics and competitive can make things boring but honestly I'm going to get Pokemon Let's Go Eevee and Let's Go Pikachu as an adventure title, similar to Pokemon Ranger or Mystery Dungeon, as a fresh HD 3D Cinematic remake of Pokemon Red and Blue, throughout this new take on Kanto rather than expecting a full traditional experience with the dedicated post-game content and multiplayer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  20. Storm the Lycanroc

    Storm the Lycanroc Unova Bound

    I guess my resentment towards Kanto comes from the developers constantly shoving it down our throats. From giving us the starters in XY and the constant references in other games.

    Personally I'd rather move forward in the series instead of constantly returning to the place where it all started. They call it a Pokemon "world" for a reason, there's a whole world out there to explore. We've only explored a small portion of it with regions based off Japan, New York City, France, and Hawaii. There's tons of other locations to explore so why do we keep returning to Kanto?

    EDIT:
    Additionally I don't find any excitement using the original 151 Pokemon again. The series has been running for 22 years and I've used them in so many other playthroughs with other new and old Pokemon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018

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