Kuvario
I am who I am...because of them.
Exactly, I mean they seemed like hacked Pokemon but even worse imo. And that villain, oh lord even he was awful, I mean he's plain and dull imo. What fun was he? Agreed wholeheartedly.
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The Mastermind of Mirage Pokémon! (---)
- Thread starter Serebii
- Start date
Exactly, I mean they seemed like hacked Pokemon but even worse imo. And that villain, oh lord even he was awful, I mean he's plain and dull imo. What fun was he? Agreed wholeheartedly.
nuzamaki90
Well-Known Member
I don't even remember who he was or what his purpose was for creating the Miragemons but man was that idea dumb. Just what would he do if the system caught a bug and the Mirage Pokemon turned on him?
Kuvario
I am who I am...because of them.
Basically he said real Pokemon were trash since they had elemental weaknesses, so he decided to change that by making MirageMons which were Mega Ultra Powerful. IKR? Yup, unless he had another plan to take care of that possible outcome, it could've been lights out for him, permanently.
minerswhocraft
Misty Come Back!
The use of the holograms and their limitless possibilities was very stupid and the whole Mew thing was as well. But the idea of creating holograms to use as practice was a neat one!
It is true that Misty didn't have to be there. Although I LOVED seeing her back, it was just too pointless to enjoy. Hell, Ash had just as little reason to be there as Misty did.
But what I did like was that characters did have personality and they were fun to watch while not being tied up in the silly plot. I mean, Brock was hilarious and so was Misty!
But really, I did like the new voices, even though everyone else here seems to not, haha. Ash's voice however is unforgivable...
It is true that Misty didn't have to be there. Although I LOVED seeing her back, it was just too pointless to enjoy. Hell, Ash had just as little reason to be there as Misty did.
But what I did like was that characters did have personality and they were fun to watch while not being tied up in the silly plot. I mean, Brock was hilarious and so was Misty!
But really, I did like the new voices, even though everyone else here seems to not, haha. Ash's voice however is unforgivable...
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
Ash's voice is really bad at first but it improves as the show goes on.
pokemon fan 132
Well-Known Member
Wow amount of dislike and ceriticism for this special is unbelivable. I mean i know that most voices were bad, but come on i rewatched Mastermind of Mirage pokemon spoecial few days ago and i sincerely liked it for several reasons.
Personally i enjoyed in flux of memorable, packed with tension, jokes and support interactions prevailing there between Ash and his traveling companions. With all characters being natural, authentic and enjoyable not regressing in development received in canon through regular anime or chronicles prior to that.
I actually liked writer idea of taking look at pokemon world from different corner. In giving us insight in what appeared to be renowned scientist who was expelled from pokemon research institute because of cruel and questionable methods. Showing how behind pleasant, polite exterior is hiding socipath, megalomaniac in search for revenge, power and respect being cruel and evil to the point of not having redeemable qualities(aka Hunter J).
It was certainly more original and creative than typical overused concept of villains using devices to control pokemon to do things against their will, or cliched route of dividing things in black and white when it comes to villains making clear separation between "good" and "bad" coming of as flat, one dimensional characters.
With dr. Yung coming of as grey character who changed for worse after riducule and humiliation he went through becoming corrupted and bittered.
I also welcomed conceotion behind using collected DNA from all living creatures inserting them in virtual form trying through revolutionary technology to create perfect pokemon without flaws. Reminding me of Digimon anime and whole data, holographic features coming to life.
At least to me it seemed like fresh and untried plot in pokemon anime until than.
Wholeheartedly recommending this special for anyone who is looking for good action, innovative ideas which you dont meet every day and genuinely dynamic interactions between characters.
I actually enjoyed in Mastermind of Mirage pokemon special and i also beg to differ on Misty playing no relevance there.
Purpose behind this special was to mark 10 years of pokemon franxhise existence, reuniting all of part and current traveling companions at one place doing big reunion.
Not to mention i dont know about you guys but Misty played biggest role in that special next to Ash. She challenged dr. Yung battling with his mirage pokemon, she went with Ash to castle to free prof. Oak from Yung captivity.
Along with having nice bonding moments with May when her life was saved strengthening on friendship, later battling horde of dr. Doom (basically masked Yung)mirage pokemon and overpowered Mewtwo with her gyarados.
Not to mention aside from change of voice which did bothered me Misty was highly entertaining(in most cases she is, but still). With her playful, sarcastic and spunky nature teasing Ash, being irked at Brock girl chasing tendencies, and mature having competitive spirit in her demonstrating how to aproach urgent situations in assertive, levelheaded way.
She delivered more continuity, humor and excitement to plot which wouldnpt been nearly as fun without her included imho.Asw well opportunity to see some update on her strengthening storyline.
In general i appreciated creation of Mastermind of Mirage Pokemon special if anything than because of intention present behind it. Something what truly counts.
Pokemon USA in cooperation with Japanese writers and producers wanted to reward fans for loyalty through reunion of all Ash friends, mark 10th anniversarry in appropriate movie like way, and pay attention to continuity, history and previous characters strengthening series plot and message about unbreakable bond which ties Ash with all his friends with their impact, dreams and legacy left on anime being remembered and acknowledged.
Something which stopped being practice in regular pokemon anime long, long time ago. For that reason alone i can respect and appreciate effort and time dedicated in producing this.
Personally i enjoyed in flux of memorable, packed with tension, jokes and support interactions prevailing there between Ash and his traveling companions. With all characters being natural, authentic and enjoyable not regressing in development received in canon through regular anime or chronicles prior to that.
I actually liked writer idea of taking look at pokemon world from different corner. In giving us insight in what appeared to be renowned scientist who was expelled from pokemon research institute because of cruel and questionable methods. Showing how behind pleasant, polite exterior is hiding socipath, megalomaniac in search for revenge, power and respect being cruel and evil to the point of not having redeemable qualities(aka Hunter J).
It was certainly more original and creative than typical overused concept of villains using devices to control pokemon to do things against their will, or cliched route of dividing things in black and white when it comes to villains making clear separation between "good" and "bad" coming of as flat, one dimensional characters.
With dr. Yung coming of as grey character who changed for worse after riducule and humiliation he went through becoming corrupted and bittered.
I also welcomed conceotion behind using collected DNA from all living creatures inserting them in virtual form trying through revolutionary technology to create perfect pokemon without flaws. Reminding me of Digimon anime and whole data, holographic features coming to life.
At least to me it seemed like fresh and untried plot in pokemon anime until than.
Wholeheartedly recommending this special for anyone who is looking for good action, innovative ideas which you dont meet every day and genuinely dynamic interactions between characters.
I actually enjoyed in Mastermind of Mirage pokemon special and i also beg to differ on Misty playing no relevance there.
Purpose behind this special was to mark 10 years of pokemon franxhise existence, reuniting all of part and current traveling companions at one place doing big reunion.
Not to mention i dont know about you guys but Misty played biggest role in that special next to Ash. She challenged dr. Yung battling with his mirage pokemon, she went with Ash to castle to free prof. Oak from Yung captivity.
Along with having nice bonding moments with May when her life was saved strengthening on friendship, later battling horde of dr. Doom (basically masked Yung)mirage pokemon and overpowered Mewtwo with her gyarados.
Not to mention aside from change of voice which did bothered me Misty was highly entertaining(in most cases she is, but still). With her playful, sarcastic and spunky nature teasing Ash, being irked at Brock girl chasing tendencies, and mature having competitive spirit in her demonstrating how to aproach urgent situations in assertive, levelheaded way.
She delivered more continuity, humor and excitement to plot which wouldnpt been nearly as fun without her included imho.Asw well opportunity to see some update on her strengthening storyline.
In general i appreciated creation of Mastermind of Mirage Pokemon special if anything than because of intention present behind it. Something what truly counts.
Pokemon USA in cooperation with Japanese writers and producers wanted to reward fans for loyalty through reunion of all Ash friends, mark 10th anniversarry in appropriate movie like way, and pay attention to continuity, history and previous characters strengthening series plot and message about unbreakable bond which ties Ash with all his friends with their impact, dreams and legacy left on anime being remembered and acknowledged.
Something which stopped being practice in regular pokemon anime long, long time ago. For that reason alone i can respect and appreciate effort and time dedicated in producing this.
Last edited:
Lord Trollbias
Y'all Salty Bishes
Yeah. At first I hated the new voices but as time went on the VAs became comfortable and grew into their own in their roles.
Haha, look at all of you squirming at the shitty dub voices. Thank god there's an English sub for this. At least the Japanese team knew what they were doing, keeping the old voices.
So glad to see Kasumi return... even if she's still portrayed as a weak-*** trainer damsel in distress. Hell, the whole scene with Haruka saving her was a blatant jab against Kasaumi and her fans by saying that "GET OVER IT, HARUKA IS REPLACING HER!". Jeez. Where the hell is her Gyarados? And wouldn't Kasumi be sensible enough to take back her Starmie from her sister, considering that she's accepted a battle proposal? Why the hell did she use one of her weakest Pokemon ever? Right, because **** logic.
So glad to see Kasumi return... even if she's still portrayed as a weak-*** trainer damsel in distress. Hell, the whole scene with Haruka saving her was a blatant jab against Kasaumi and her fans by saying that "GET OVER IT, HARUKA IS REPLACING HER!". Jeez. Where the hell is her Gyarados? And wouldn't Kasumi be sensible enough to take back her Starmie from her sister, considering that she's accepted a battle proposal? Why the hell did she use one of her weakest Pokemon ever? Right, because **** logic.
pokemon fan 132
Well-Known Member
To me she didn't seemed that way. Misty was portrayed as tough, headstrong character who wasn't safraid to say what she thinks and take charge in resolving problems not lowering her guard infront of others. Showing sassy feisty nature in arguing with Ash, Brock obsession oer opposite gender, dr. Doom etc brimming with pride and confidence in her abilities.
I mean when Ash went to castle to free prof. Oak she didn't stayed behind but decided to be part of action, took charge in finding Ash and others helping them out when meeting up with May , entered battle with dr. Yung filled with overconfidence thinking she cannot lose etc.
Whole scene of May saving her life was meant to symbolize good friendship present between two girls with urgent moments like this strengthening on that(although ill be honest i always thought it was mistake to replace character with such rich personality, sense of awareness and strong attitude not backing down to challenge like Misty leaving lot of potential to do more wuth her water master career, pokemlon, quite sad past of growing without parents etc unexplored, finding Hoenn would've been better if she got kept).
Agree over being questionable in Misty not bringing Starmie with her. That thing is a beast in games, but it showed quite a few times in anime too how powerful it can be posessing wide range of techniqies, strong moves and agility making for formidable force. However i think choice of bringing rather Staryu has to do more with personal attachment and big care showed toward this pokemon, with Misty more than once revealing her preference to it.
Not to mention based on all that training, battles Staryu participated in showing impressive dexterity, speed and strength of its attacks(i mean it was holding its own ground against double powered Mantine from Molly n third movie, while all Brock pokemon in comparison quickly fell down in facing mirage pokemon or defeating Tentacruel from Marina with just one attack)). I really wouldn't be surprised that Staryu despite being pre evolved form is stronger than Starmie. Especially when knowing Misty sisters i doubt they trained it much while she was on journey with Ash.
Moonstardust
Banned
Ash's voice sounded hoarse here, but I was simply happy to see Prof. Oak and Misty again. Dr. Yung was a good villain too.
Wednesdayz
Meowth fanatic
Omg, I didn't like how cruel Dr. Yung was to Mirage Mew or how he arrogantly thought of it as a flawed specimen: Mew just had its own personality. The battle between Ash and friends' Pokemon and Mirage Mewtwo was awesome tbh.
RedJirachi
Veteran member
Yung's a sociopath who can't understand the value of a living soul in Pokemon or human beings. Mew was flawed in his eyes because it wasn't a mere automaton like the rest of the Mirage Pokemon
DarkLeviathan
Banned
I didn't like Dr. Yung's motivations in this special, nor the fact that Ash and the others had new voices. I don't even think Oak and Misty were needed in this special.
TheWanderingMist
Paladin of the Snow Queen
And this special shows why VA's should practice their imitations first. Brock isn't too bad but it's blatant with Ash, Misty, and May. They got better with May eventually but Misty didn't come back later so we don't know if she improved on her as well. Natochenny has at least gotten better with Ash. She'll never be Veronica Taylor though.
zdbz_sn
Well-Known Member
I was actually advised against watching this. Not one person I’ve come across has said that it was good. But I’m a sucker for the Mew Duo, and this is Misty’s last major appearance to date. With those two things going for it, it can’t be that bad, right? Right?
…Right?
Let’s get this out of the way first - 4Kids didn’t exactly start their dub as a breathtaking example of quality voice acting. It took a while for them to find their groove. This being the first thing that the TCPi cast ever did, there’s a limit to how harshly one can judge them when you divorce the performances themselves from the fact that an anniversary special commissioned for the American audience is a poor choice in venue for testing out a new cast brought in to make things cheaper. And they did eventually re-dub the thing for DVD, an acknowledgement of their initial mistakes.
I’d be curious to see the re-dub some day; the copy I had to watch was the original. And, cutting them some slack for being first-timers…it’s bad. Anyone who’s ever tried to watch a Godzilla film with the international dubs Toho prepares in Hong Kong will have seen worse dubbing, but this is still bad. The fact that TCPi’s improvements over the years have been marginal at best is also a limit on the slack I’m willing to cut them. Professor Oak’s is probably the worst voice here, emotionally flat and often sliding more into Gary territory. I’m not surprised Jamie Peacock was replaced as Ash, either. Her voice might bear more resemblance to Veronica Taylor’s Ash than what Sarah Natochenny eventually did, but there’s no energy to the performance. Whether Bill Rogers improved as Brock over the years or not is an open question; he was never that good IMO. And Misty’s voice is weak, and probably the most frustrating. Michele Knotz has done a fair Jessie over the years, and her stab at Misty comes very close to Rachel Lillis in timbre, but without any of the temper, teasing, sweetness, or life that Lillis brought to the character. Like Professor Oak’s, it’s a flat performance emotionally.
Another technical problem with this special is the animation. I cannot for the life of me figure out why an anniversary special seems to have been given such a low budget. The Mirage Kingdom episodes of AG (to name just one example) had much higher quality than this. I would critique this animation if it popped up in a regular episode; in a special like this, it feels like a cheat. The bright backgrounds and almost pastel color palette also undermine any sense of threat or menace that Yung might have possessed.
The pacing is off as well. If the pokefilms after a certain point lost a truly cinematic feel (for the most part), they did at least try to present their material with a bit more flair and scope than the average episode. Certain episodes try to have a bit more flair and scope than the rest. The way the story is laid out here is so…mundane. Nothing is given any sort of weight; the threat posed by Yung isn’t treated any more seriously than something a CotD or even the TRio would pull. The story itself has the glaring flaw that there’s no good reason for Yung to have invited anyone except Professor Oak to his castle. There isn’t anything in the way of a plot or an arc for Ash or anyone else; they’re basically there to witness what Yung is up to, and they don’t even stop him. Several of the films have the same problem, but not to this degree IMO, and this special doesn’t even have a CotD as a de facto protagonist. Not unless you count the Mirage Mew, which…give ‘em a point for originality, I guess.
And the character work is irritatingly lame. Misty’s guest appearances throughout AG all made more out of her initial reveal and the group’s reaction to her. Things never went overboard in that regard, but all those moments were treated as special events. In this special, her turning up is just tossed aside. Seeing her alongside Ash and May is fun, but it doesn’t amount to anything thanks to the virtual non-existence of a role for any of them in the plot. The unique dynamic between Misty and Ash, or Misty and Brock, or Max and Brock, or Ash and Professor Oak - the well-established and entertaining dynamics between any two characters - aren’t made use of, and Max and Brock individually aren’t made use of at all.
And then…there’s that one bit…
So, remember how, back in the early Kanto days where Ash and Misty were just barely friends, we had “Here Comes the Squirtle Squad,” where Pikachu is sick and the Squirtles threaten to dye Misty’s hair (or kill her, if you go by the Japanese version), and Ash is super concerned for both of them, and urges Jenny to get him back to the cave faster because he’s worried about Misty, and when he reaches the cave he imagines her screaming and falling and gets all frightened? Remember that?
Fast forward hundreds of episodes, eight movies, an hour-long special, a couple of Chronicles adventures, and lots of character development that saw Ash and Misty become best friends, with the latter definitely crushing on the former and the former possibly subconsciously doing the same. Given all that, what is Ash’s reaction to Misty falling to her apparent death?
“Misty! Oh, wait, they’re taking Pikachu away. Pikachu! Oh, wait, there’s a not-Mew I need to talk to. Good luck, guys!”
********.
I might give that moment more of a pass in other circumstances; the TRio have taken falls and been blasted off in ways that would result in certain death in a literal reality countless times. Those falls are played as cartoon comedy, and had Misty taken a plunge from a great height in that kind of a situation, I wouldn’t be so bothered that Ash didn’t have more of a reaction. But this is meant to be a dramatic moment. The possibility that Misty could be in real danger at the least is (nominally) present. Why does Ash have such a muted response?
This special isn’t even the only instance of this problem. Such a lack of emotion regarding human jeopardy has become a chronic flaw of this anime, and it’s maddening to me that the staff doesn’t seem to regard the bonds between people and their human loved ones as being of equal importance for the characters - and the audience - as the bonds between people and their Pokemon.
All of that said, is there anything good about Mastermind of Mirage Pokemon? Well, Professor Oak having a sweet-*** Dragonite was cool. And the basic concept of an evil scientist creating Mirage Pokemon wasn’t bad. It could easily have made a movie, and perhaps it should’ve. Executed with better animation and more emotion and scale to the storytelling, this could’ve been an excellent pokefilm, much better than Temple of the Sea IMO (which I assume it would’ve replaced). It’s just such a shame that almost everything was done wrong in the execution of this idea, and in an anniversary celebration no less. Alas, it seems TPC has made the same sort of mistake (in different aspects of production) on their next anniversary…
…Right?
Let’s get this out of the way first - 4Kids didn’t exactly start their dub as a breathtaking example of quality voice acting. It took a while for them to find their groove. This being the first thing that the TCPi cast ever did, there’s a limit to how harshly one can judge them when you divorce the performances themselves from the fact that an anniversary special commissioned for the American audience is a poor choice in venue for testing out a new cast brought in to make things cheaper. And they did eventually re-dub the thing for DVD, an acknowledgement of their initial mistakes.
I’d be curious to see the re-dub some day; the copy I had to watch was the original. And, cutting them some slack for being first-timers…it’s bad. Anyone who’s ever tried to watch a Godzilla film with the international dubs Toho prepares in Hong Kong will have seen worse dubbing, but this is still bad. The fact that TCPi’s improvements over the years have been marginal at best is also a limit on the slack I’m willing to cut them. Professor Oak’s is probably the worst voice here, emotionally flat and often sliding more into Gary territory. I’m not surprised Jamie Peacock was replaced as Ash, either. Her voice might bear more resemblance to Veronica Taylor’s Ash than what Sarah Natochenny eventually did, but there’s no energy to the performance. Whether Bill Rogers improved as Brock over the years or not is an open question; he was never that good IMO. And Misty’s voice is weak, and probably the most frustrating. Michele Knotz has done a fair Jessie over the years, and her stab at Misty comes very close to Rachel Lillis in timbre, but without any of the temper, teasing, sweetness, or life that Lillis brought to the character. Like Professor Oak’s, it’s a flat performance emotionally.
Another technical problem with this special is the animation. I cannot for the life of me figure out why an anniversary special seems to have been given such a low budget. The Mirage Kingdom episodes of AG (to name just one example) had much higher quality than this. I would critique this animation if it popped up in a regular episode; in a special like this, it feels like a cheat. The bright backgrounds and almost pastel color palette also undermine any sense of threat or menace that Yung might have possessed.
The pacing is off as well. If the pokefilms after a certain point lost a truly cinematic feel (for the most part), they did at least try to present their material with a bit more flair and scope than the average episode. Certain episodes try to have a bit more flair and scope than the rest. The way the story is laid out here is so…mundane. Nothing is given any sort of weight; the threat posed by Yung isn’t treated any more seriously than something a CotD or even the TRio would pull. The story itself has the glaring flaw that there’s no good reason for Yung to have invited anyone except Professor Oak to his castle. There isn’t anything in the way of a plot or an arc for Ash or anyone else; they’re basically there to witness what Yung is up to, and they don’t even stop him. Several of the films have the same problem, but not to this degree IMO, and this special doesn’t even have a CotD as a de facto protagonist. Not unless you count the Mirage Mew, which…give ‘em a point for originality, I guess.
And the character work is irritatingly lame. Misty’s guest appearances throughout AG all made more out of her initial reveal and the group’s reaction to her. Things never went overboard in that regard, but all those moments were treated as special events. In this special, her turning up is just tossed aside. Seeing her alongside Ash and May is fun, but it doesn’t amount to anything thanks to the virtual non-existence of a role for any of them in the plot. The unique dynamic between Misty and Ash, or Misty and Brock, or Max and Brock, or Ash and Professor Oak - the well-established and entertaining dynamics between any two characters - aren’t made use of, and Max and Brock individually aren’t made use of at all.
And then…there’s that one bit…
So, remember how, back in the early Kanto days where Ash and Misty were just barely friends, we had “Here Comes the Squirtle Squad,” where Pikachu is sick and the Squirtles threaten to dye Misty’s hair (or kill her, if you go by the Japanese version), and Ash is super concerned for both of them, and urges Jenny to get him back to the cave faster because he’s worried about Misty, and when he reaches the cave he imagines her screaming and falling and gets all frightened? Remember that?
Fast forward hundreds of episodes, eight movies, an hour-long special, a couple of Chronicles adventures, and lots of character development that saw Ash and Misty become best friends, with the latter definitely crushing on the former and the former possibly subconsciously doing the same. Given all that, what is Ash’s reaction to Misty falling to her apparent death?
“Misty! Oh, wait, they’re taking Pikachu away. Pikachu! Oh, wait, there’s a not-Mew I need to talk to. Good luck, guys!”
********.
I might give that moment more of a pass in other circumstances; the TRio have taken falls and been blasted off in ways that would result in certain death in a literal reality countless times. Those falls are played as cartoon comedy, and had Misty taken a plunge from a great height in that kind of a situation, I wouldn’t be so bothered that Ash didn’t have more of a reaction. But this is meant to be a dramatic moment. The possibility that Misty could be in real danger at the least is (nominally) present. Why does Ash have such a muted response?
This special isn’t even the only instance of this problem. Such a lack of emotion regarding human jeopardy has become a chronic flaw of this anime, and it’s maddening to me that the staff doesn’t seem to regard the bonds between people and their human loved ones as being of equal importance for the characters - and the audience - as the bonds between people and their Pokemon.
All of that said, is there anything good about Mastermind of Mirage Pokemon? Well, Professor Oak having a sweet-*** Dragonite was cool. And the basic concept of an evil scientist creating Mirage Pokemon wasn’t bad. It could easily have made a movie, and perhaps it should’ve. Executed with better animation and more emotion and scale to the storytelling, this could’ve been an excellent pokefilm, much better than Temple of the Sea IMO (which I assume it would’ve replaced). It’s just such a shame that almost everything was done wrong in the execution of this idea, and in an anniversary celebration no less. Alas, it seems TPC has made the same sort of mistake (in different aspects of production) on their next anniversary…
He was voiced by Kayzie Rogers when this special first aired if I remember right, so yep his voice sounded quite strange hee hee. However this special was re-dubbed and his voice improved thankfully.
Wednesdayz
Meowth fanatic
Sarah voiced him in the edited version of this special that was released with the ninth movie's DVD iirc, so I wouldn't say that it was an improvement per se lol.