The Menacing Menaces (OU)

[Hotshot]

Well, haven't been here in a while. Hi all. For a while now, I've been using a team comprised mostly of my favorites (most of which happen to be in the OU tier), but the primary flaw of that team is that they lack unity...so basically it's a "team" comprised of lone Pokemon. Only one or two of them actually work together. This is a problem.

So I've set to work building a new team, one that centers around three key Pokemon, with three others working to support them as best they can.

Team at a glance:

Some insight: The core of this team is the combination of Gengar, Magnezone, and Tyranitar. I stumbled upon this powerful trio while contemplating a core for my team. They seem to work almost perfectly together, battling each other's weaknesses, and saving each other's butts, while dishing out major destruction at the same time. Just these three Pokemon have been able to trash entire teams. The other three are big helps too.

A closer look:

THE LEAD

Swampert @ Leftovers
Relaxed (+ Def, - Spe)
240 HP / 216 Def / 52 SpD
Torrent
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Protect/Roar (Which one, which one...)

While I was hesitant to use him at first, I've been thankful for the over-sized fish-thing on many occasions. Stealth Rock is, of course, a standard move that most leads should have, and Swampert sets them up with ease against most other leads. Earthquake is, well, Earthquake. Ice Beam covers Swampert's Grass weakness and Gliscor, Dragonite, and Flygon. The potential to freeze is a nice addition as well. Protect is used primarily for scouting, but can also be used against the Explosions of those pesky Azelf and Metagross leads. All in all, a solid and reliable contender.


THE KAMIKAZE

Infernape @ Life Orb
Hasty (+ Spe, - Def)
252 Atk / 64 SpA / 192 Spe
Blaze
- Close Combat
- U-Turn
- Mach Punch
- Overheat

A personal favorite of mine, Infernape nearly always gets his job done. His job, you ask? To burst onto the scene, take out as many enemy Pokemon as he can, and then die. Close Combat is his best move, and definitely does a lot of damage. U-Turn is there in case Infernape hasn't knocked out any Pokemon and suddenly runs into a problematic opponent. We don't want to waste our suicidal monkey, do we? Mach Punch is to get that last hit in to finish off a faster opponent (namely Starmie, off the top of my head). This could be switched with Stone Edge as well. Overheat is his fire move that doesn't get much usage, but when it does, it packs a punch.


THE TRAP

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Naive (+ Spe, - SpD)
40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Magnet Pull
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Explosion

Any opposing Steel types go here. Substitute saves him from possible death and Thunderbolt and Hidden Power can deal neutral damage to most types. When all is said and done, and all Steel types are out of the picture, Magnezone goes out with a bang, taking down anything that's left with Explosion. Explosion can also be useful against stall teams, often removing Blissey from the playing field. Magnezone works great in unison with Gengar, as the latter draws in the Steels, and Magnezone eats them alive. Another possibility I was considering is replacing Explosion with Thunder Wave, which would help both Gengar and Tyranitar. Any thoughts on that?


THE MANIAC

Gengar @ Life Orb
Timid (+ Spe, - Atk)
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Levitate
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Explosion

Probably the center of this team would be Gengar. He's an absolute beast when it comes to taking out enemy Pokemon. Shadow Ball is for STAB, and does an amazing job in taking care of other Ghost Pokemon, namely slower Gengar and all Rotom forms. Focus Blast OHKOes max HP Tyranitar, OHKOes min HP Heatran, and does lethal damage to Snorlax, resulting in a possible 2HKO. Thunderbolt OHKOes Gyarados, and 2HKOes max HP Suicune. Explosion finishes whatever job Gengar was working on, even going so far as to possibly beating Blissey. Gengar lures in Scizor, who can be easily handled by Magnezone. In addition, he deals with Lucario for Tyranitar.


THE CRIPPLER (Replaced Starmie)

Celebi @ Leftovers
Bold (+ Def, - Atk)
252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Natural Cure
- Grass Knot
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell

Grass Knot is Celebi's STAB move, and very good at ridding me of bulky Water types and Tyranitar. Recover is for when Celebi needs to replenish its health, of course. Thunder Wave works well with Recover, because it gives Celebi the opportunity to heal itself. It also cripples opponents like Offensive Gyarados, who pose problems for this team. Heal Bell is for restoring the statuses of Gengar, Infernape, and Tyranitar, for whenever they get paralyzed, burned, or put to sleep. Over all, its primary function is to protect against Gyarados.


THE BEAST

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Jolly (+ Spe, - SpA)
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Sand Stream
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Earthquake

Very straightforward. When the time is right, let the team's resident monster loose to wreak havoc on the other team. Magnezone and Swampert are both unaffected by Sandstorm, which is a good thing. With a Choice Scarf, Tyranitar just barely outruns several dangerous OU threats, taking them to the cleaners before they even have a chance to retaliate. The Choice Scarf is also there to absorb Trick. If I'm not mistaken, usually Psychic and Ghost types use the move Trick...so the strategy there is to use Pursuit on them the moment they realize they've just grasped the short end of the stick. Stone Edge is there for STAB, as is Crunch (both of which are open for replacement suggestions). Pursuit's purpose is obvious, kill anyone trying to escape. Again, Earthquake is Earthquake. It's just an awesome move...though, in this case, it could be replaced with Superpower. Tyranitar also attracts Skarmory and Lucario, who can be taken care of by Magnezone and Gengar, respectively. Tyranitar returns the favor by taking out Heatran and Blissey for Magnezone.

And that's the team. Comments? Suggestions? I'm open to both.

 

[Simse]

This team has problems with Offensive Gyarados.

With proper support, entry hazards, Starmie will be OHKO'd. Swampert also can't touch Gyarados. Giving Swampert Roar instead of Protect would be a good idea. But that's the best I can think of within this team. Unless you give Gengar a Choice Scarf.
But Bulky Gyarados isn't a problem, it's handled by Starmie.

Also, Infernape takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock as he's part Fighting type.

I'm not sure what to replace Starmie with, as Rapid Spin is always a good move to have. Possibly a cleric, because Infernape, Gengar and Tyranitar are no where near as effective if they're Paralyized.

 

[xLilith]

You could try running Celebi. Crippling Gyarados with TWave. Use the Defensive set.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Bold; 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Natural Cure

~Grass Knot
~Recover
~Thunder Wave
~Heal Bell

 

[Hotshot]

This team has problems with Offensive Gyarados.

With proper support, entry hazards, Starmie will be OHKO'd. Swampert also can't touch Gyarados. Giving Swampert Roar instead of Protect would be a good idea. But that's the best I can think of within this team.

Ah, yes. I've only run into him once using this team so far (which is very strange, because they're usually all over the place). I had some problems with him, but got lucky and managed to come away with a win. Roar would be a good option, the only problem is when it comes to Explosion. I've run into four or five Azelf leads recently and all of them tried Explosion. Only one of them succeeded, because I was trying something different. The others simply blew themselves up because I used Protect.

So I'm not sure where to go with that.

Unless you give Gengar a Choice Scarf.

You know what, that could work. The only problem is that then I lose my Gengar's ability to trash Pokemon one after another. Just last night I beat the tar out of five Pokemon on one team with Gengar (four of them in a row, three OHKO, but using different moves). Still, that doesn't always happen, so a Choice Scarf may be better. Advice?

Also, Infernape takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock as he's part Fighting type.

Oh, my goodness. I can't believe I forgot that. Wow, stupid me. Well, there's even more reason to replace Starmie now. But still, as you say below, Rapid Spin is a good move to have.

I'm not sure what to replace Starmie with, as Rapid Spin is always a good move to have. Possibly a cleric, because Infernape, Gengar and Tyranitar are no where near as effective if they're Paralyized.

True, true. That could be a big help to my three big hitters.

You could try running Celebi. Crippling Gyarados with TWave. Use the Defensive set.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Bold; 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Natural Cure

~Grass Knot
~Recover
~Thunder Wave
~Heal Bell

Hmmm...to be perfectly honest, I've actually never used Celebi before. Before I try it, could I get a second opinion on this set?

Also, Thunder Wave is an option for my Magnezone, replacing Explosion. Which do you think is more needed?

 

[Simse]

If you did go with Celebi, Gengar could stay as it is.
I would recommend using the set xLilith posted, over Starmie.

Keep Explosion on Magnezone, it destroys Blissey, who would usually wall Magnezone.

Also, with Swampert, if you predicted right, you could switch to Gengar on the Explosion. But that's your choice.

 

[Hotshot]

If you did go with Celebi, Gengar could stay as it is.
I would recommend using the set xLilith posted, over Starmie.

Alright, sounds like a plan. Thanks, xLilith for the Celebi set!

Also, with Swampert, if you predicted right, you could switch to Gengar on the Explosion. But that's your choice.

True, I've considered that. The only problem with it is that if my prediction is wrong, I'm left with a possible Gengar-shortage, or a crippled and useless Ghost Pokemon.

But I'll try it out and see how it works. Would you recommend Roar for the final move slot?

 

[xLilith]

Well, most Azelf, once they set up Rocks against something like Swampert, they usually explode, so switching to Gengar is a good choice most of the time, since 24% of them run U-Turn. And even if they do use it, it won't really do much to Gengar if you switch. Some of them also run Fire Blast, but I doubt they'll use it if they think that you're going to stay in with Swampert.

In my opinion, keep Protect. If you just really don't want to switch, it could come in handy. It would help phaze things like Gyarados and Dragonite, but Celebi will be able to take care of those.

 

[Hotshot]

In my opinion, keep Protect. If you just really don't want to switch, it could come in handy. It would help phaze things like Gyarados and Dragonite, but Celebi will be able to take care of those.

Okey dokey then. I've tried Roar, and I think Protect has suited me better thus far. Thanks for the rates? Anything else I'm missing?

 

[Big Beluga]

Definetly use Roar on Pert. Will rack up more residual SR damage, stop BP chains(lol), lets you scout your opponents team, and makes it a lot harder for things like SubCharge Rotom, CurseLax, and CM Rachi set up on you.

 

[Hotshot]

Definetly use Roar on Pert. Will rack up more residual SR damage, stop BP chains(lol), lets you scout your opponents team, and makes it a lot harder for things like SubCharge Rotom, CurseLax, and CM Rachi set up on you.

OHHHHHH. I didn't think of that. Stopping BP chains (and frustrating my BP-based opponents) would be both strategic and entertaining.

So now I've got two opinions, though. Protect or Roar? What are the perks and downsides of both?

 

[xLilith]

Actually, now that I remember about Baton Pass (-_-) I think Roar would be generally better.

 

[AB2]

Hi,

This team's synergy is decent; however you lack a decent rock resist, besides Swampert which is going to be worn down from the lead match up due to the fact Swampert is a fairly bad lead. This means that this team is fairly weak to Dragon Dance Tyranitar because it sets up on Magnazone easily and Mach Punch from Infernape will not KO unless you pray for maximum damage. Then your only hope is relying on a Speed tie with Tyranitar which when it comes down do it, is a horrible check. This team also seems to have trouble with Rotom-W, the Choice Specs and Choice Scarf versions and particularly Choice Scarf. Choice Scarf Rotom-W revenges kills most of your team only having trouble with Scarfed Tyranitar who can't switch into two consecutive Hydro Pumps. It basically walls Magnazone even though it can't hit it for super effective damage it can still ware it down quite easily. Personally, I wouldn't get rid of that Starmie, it is your main check to top threats such as Heatran and Gyarados. Saying that entry hazards will be on every team with offensive Gyarados is situational, because that means you are only weak to offensive spike stacking teams which can be fixed by adding a better lead to your team. I see a minor weakness to Substitute + Pain Split Gengar because if it comes in on Celebi or Magnazone and potentially scares it off and sets up a Substitute, you are relying on winning a speed. This team seems to have problems with MixNite if it plays hit and run with this team, your best option is just to wear it down with stealth rocks which Swampert might not even get up......

This team is pretty stall weak, for one you won't be able to break the combination of Gyarados / Tyranitar / Blissey / Rotom / Skarmory on your team although you do pack explosion on Gengar, but a Scarfed Tyranitar will usually be able to remove the same types of threats on this team. Also, Skarmory and Foretress will be able to wall Scarfed Tyranitar pretty easily, although Forry won't be able to really do anything. If you Explode on anything else besides Blissey [which if it is badly timed and protected with] then you are walled by the simple core of Skarmory / Blissey. This team is severly weak to Machamp, especially the Substitute + 3 Attacks variants. It scares off Tyranitar quite easily and sets up a Substitute, preceding to do a lot of damage to your team, KOing or severly crippling just about anything behind the substitute. Flygon can be a minor nuisance to this team, it can revenge kill basically anything here besides Swampert, which once again will probably let you down. One final mention, Substitute + Petaya Berry Empoleon will be able to shut you down quite easily since it can set up an Agility on Tyranitar locked into Pursuit or Crunch and Sub down until it gets its boosts. It will then be able to KO anything on this team with the combination of Surf / Hydro Pump + Ice Beam.

P.S - Since you got rid of that Starmie, you are really weak to Dragon Dance + Bounce Gyarados.

Problems:
Dragon Dance Tyranitar
Scarfed / Specs Rotom-W [minor]
Dragon Dance Bounce Gyarados
Substitute + Pain Split Gengar
Standard Stall
Mixed Dragonite
Substitute + 3 Attacks Machamp
Scarfed Flygon [minor]
Substitute Petaya Berry Empoleon

First of all lets get to fixing that stall weakness, because it is the easiest weakness that we will be able to fix. I would simply suggest running a Substitute + Pain Split Gengar > LO Gengar. The reason for this is that this Gengar lures in Blissey very easily. As you Substitute on the switch, then if you Pain Split Blissey twice it will be 2HKOed by Focus Blast guaranteed. This is nice because Blissey will have to spend time healing while you keep Pain Splitting. Since Softboiled / Wish has less PP then Pain Split, you will usually be able to win relatively untouched, unless Blissey packs Ice Beam or Flamethrower.

Gengar @ Life Orb
Timid Nature 252 SpA | 252 Spe | 4 HP
Substitute | Shadow Ball | Focus Blast | Pain Split

Now, a lot of your weaknesses can be fixed by adding one simple pokemon. I suggest that you run Calm Mind + Wish Jirachi > Celebi, although you lose a check to Dual Priority Lucario, this change needs to be made. For one this Jirachi provides a really nice check to offensive Gyarados only take ~72% from +1 Earthquake and OHKOing back with Thunderbolt after Stealth Rocks. Also, this set breaks down stall by beating Blissey [if Gengar doesn't already] and also using Thunderbolt to destroy Rest Talk Gyarados, which is the bane of Infernape's existence. Also, Calm Mind Jirachi will be able to just spam Calm Minds against Sub Petaya Empoleon, meaning that you will have a nice check for it as well.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Bold Nature 252 HP | 220 Def | 36 Spe
Calm Mind | Wish | Flash Cannon or Psychic | Thunderbolt

Now, my next suggestion is very simple, just to shift Swampert to the midgame position. This will help you GREATLY as it gives you a nice check to Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Scarfed Flygon. Since you now have wish support from Jirachi, this helps Swampert's lack of recovery. Swampert also takes any attacks that Flygon may throw at it. I would suggest running Swampert > Infernape, because stall is generally handled by Calm Mind Jirachi and Gengar.

Now to fix your lead problem, since you already have stealth rocks, I would highly suggest running Anti-Lead Life Orbed Dragonite in the spot that Swampert was. Anti-Leads have been becoming more popular lately and Dragonite is one the best of them at the moment. You are able to KO most suicide leads pretty easily, and this Dragonite's fits in with your synergy as well as doing heavy damage to Scarfed Rotom-W and Substitute Machamp which can be a minor nuisance.

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Quiet Nature 252 SpA | 252 Atk | 4 HP
Draco Meteor | Fire Blast | Extreemespeed | Earthquake

Dragonite / Swampert / Tyranitar / Gengar / Magnazone / Jirachi

That is all I have to say for now, good luck with your team.

 

[Hotshot]

First off, thanks so much for such a detailed rate! Now, let's get to it...

First of all lets get to fixing that stall weakness, because it is the easiest weakness that we will be able to fix. I would simply suggest running a Substitute + Pain Split Gengar > LO Gengar. The reason for this is that this Gengar lures in Blissey very easily. As you Substitute on the switch, then if you Pain Split Blissey twice it will be 2HKOed by Focus Blast guaranteed. This is nice because Blissey will have to spend time healing while you keep Pain Splitting. Since Softboiled / Wish has less PP then Pain Split, you will usually be able to win relatively untouched, unless Blissey packs Ice Beam or Flamethrower.

Gengar @ Life Orb
Timid Nature 252 SpA | 252 Spe | 4 HP
Substitute | Shadow Ball | Focus Blast | Pain Split

Okay, so really we're just switching Thunderbolt and Explosion for moves more suited to combat Blissey, right? (and trading the Defense EV for an HP one) I'm not sure how much of a threat Blissey is to my team other than to Gengar, which is solved with this new set. I usually don't change something unless someone else seconds it, so could I get an "Amen"?

Now, a lot of your weaknesses can be fixed by adding one simple pokemon. I suggest that you run Calm Mind + Wish Jirachi > Celebi, although you lose a check to Dual Priority Lucario, this change needs to be made. For one this Jirachi provides a really nice check to offensive Gyarados only take ~72% from +1 Earthquake and OHKOing back with Thunderbolt after Stealth Rocks. Also, this set breaks down stall by beating Blissey [if Gengar doesn't already] and also using Thunderbolt to destroy Rest Talk Gyarados, which is the bane of Infernape's existence. Also, Calm Mind Jirachi will be able to just spam Calm Minds against Sub Petaya Empoleon, meaning that you will have a nice check for it as well.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Bold Nature 252 HP | 220 Def | 36 Spe
Calm Mind | Wish | Flash Cannon or Psychic | Thunderbolt

Hm...seeing as how Celebi hasn't been doing anything for me except heal my status-afflicted Gengar and stall its own demise, I will probably give Jirachi a whirl. I like the look of that Thunderbolt. It's very appealing when Gyarados comes into the picture. Flash Cannon and Psychic aren't super-effective to many Pokemon, but are they decent neutrally? And which would you say fits the team better? It may not be significant. Just wondering.

Now, my next suggestion is very simple, just to shift Swampert to the midgame position. This will help you GREATLY as it gives you a nice check to Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Scarfed Flygon. Since you now have wish support from Jirachi, this helps Swampert's lack of recovery. Swampert also takes any attacks that Flygon may throw at it. I would suggest running Swampert > Infernape, because stall is generally handled by Calm Mind Jirachi and Gengar.

I've been thinking about switching Swampert back a bit, and using a different lead. My problem was which lead to use, and you've covered that below. I think I'll try this suggestion, because, although Infernape has done well for me, I think Swampert could be of better use in a later position. Would you recommend the same set, despite Pert's non-lead status?

Now to fix your lead problem, since you already have stealth rocks, I would highly suggest running Anti-Lead Life Orbed Dragonite in the spot that Swampert was. Anti-Leads have been becoming more popular lately and Dragonite is one the best of them at the moment. You are able to KO most suicide leads pretty easily, and this Dragonite's fits in with your synergy as well as doing heavy damage to Scarfed Rotom-W and Substitute Machamp which can be a minor nuisance.

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Quiet Nature 252 SpA | 252 Atk | 4 HP
Draco Meteor | Fire Blast | Extreemespeed | Earthquake

This is good, because it gives me a Dragon type Pokemon, an ExtremeSpeed-user, and a Fire-attacker (which covers one of Infernape's primary purposes). It will also be my only Pokemon weak to Ice, but all of my other Pokemon have ways to combat that weakness (plus, Dragonite would have Fire Blast, so that works well).

Again, thanks for the rate!

 

[AB2]

Okay, so really we're just switching Thunderbolt and Explosion for moves more suited to combat Blissey, right? (and trading the Defense EV for an HP one) I'm not sure how much of a threat Blissey is to my team other than to Gengar, which is solved with this new set. I usually don't change something unless someone else seconds it, so could I get an "Amen"?

Well it isn't really Blissey alone that is a threat to your team. What I was afraid of are the common combinations that stall teams carry such as Blissey / Skarmory / Rotom / Gyarados. Gyarados walls Infernape, your only true stall breaker, and a badly timed explosion can spell death to this team.

Hm...seeing as how Celebi hasn't been doing anything for me except heal my status-afflicted Gengar and stall its own demise, I will probably give Jirachi a whirl. I like the look of that Thunderbolt. It's very appealing when Gyarados comes into the picture. Flash Cannon and Psychic aren't super-effective to many Pokemon, but are they decent neutrally? And which would you say fits the team better? It may not be significant. Just wondering.

Flash Cannon or Psychic | Thunderbolt give very good neutral coverage together, but they both have their faults. If you pick psychic you are unable to hit Tyranitar for very much damage. If you decide to go with FLash Cannon you can't hit offensive electrics like Raikou and Jolteon very hard. It won't really hurt you to pick one or the other as they both have very nice coverage.

I've been thinking about switching Swampert back a bit, and using a different lead. My problem was which lead to use, and you've covered that below. I think I'll try this suggestion, because, although Infernape has done well for me, I think Swampert could be of better use in a later position. Would you recommend the same set, despite Pert's non-lead status?

Yep, the same set that you are running on pert right now is good. Although I would just go ahead and maximize defense for a few reasons.

1. Hitting that jump point at 216 Def EVs usually just isn't worth it because you lose some of your physical power.

2. Swampert is taking hits from pokemon like Tyranitar and Metagross, the strongest physical attackers in the OU tier, so it really needs all the defense it can get as it can already take some hits from Starmie, Gengar, Azelf. All 3 of which you have covered already.

This is good, because it gives me a Dragon type Pokemon, an ExtremeSpeed-user, and a Fire-attacker (which covers one of Infernape's primary purposes). It will also be my only Pokemon weak to Ice, but all of my other Pokemon have ways to combat that weakness (plus, Dragonite would have Fire Blast, so that works well).

Yeah, Dragonite is a really nice anti-lead right now it is able to defeat most leads like Azelf, Metagross, Swampert, Aerodactyl, and many more. I recommended that Dragonite > Anti-Lead Metagross for synergy reasons mostly and since you had swampert in the midgame position it would be nice to have an anti-lead which is becoming more popular lately.

You are welcome for the rate and I am glad you replied so quickly, I am glad you are taking my suggestions into consideration.