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The Morality of Abortion

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
You all saw this coming. The March for Life is coming up, and I want to see some opinions.

Should a woman be able to stop what she conceived or would that child be considered a human life?
 

Zero Nexus

Stand up, go for it
The way I see it, she SHOULD have the choice.

Not everyone is mentally/physically fit to be a parent, and if they don't think they're up to the task they shouldn't be forced to go through with it.

And don't just turn around and say "well if they can't raise a child then they should give it up to someone who can." think about how much pain and suffering a woman goes through just being pregnant. Why should she have to go through with that just so someone else can have all the glory for less effort?

If she has a good reason for wanting to have an abortion, let her do it. That's all I have to say.
 

SlowPokeBroKing

Future Gym Leader
This wouldn't be an issue if men could get pregnant, too.
All these douchebag men telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies and telling them what their baby is or isn't.
I would bet so much money over half the male population would be pro-choice if they knew what it was like going through all that sh*t.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
This wouldn't be an issue if men could get pregnant, too.
All these douchebag men telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies and telling them what their baby is or isn't.
I would bet so much money over half the male population would be pro-choice if they knew what it was like going through all that sh*t.

There are a lot of pro-life women. Norma Leah McCorvey, the Roe in Roe vs. Wade, is now a pro-life woman. This isn't a man or woman issue, this is an issue on where life starts.
 

SlowPokeBroKing

Future Gym Leader
There are a lot of pro-life women. Norma Leah McCorvey, the Roe in Roe vs. Wade, is now a pro-life woman. This isn't a man or woman issue, this is an issue on where life starts.

I didn't say there weren't pro-life women. I also didn't suggest that all men would be pro-choice if they had to endure all the suffering of having an unwanted child. However, enough would change their mind for the majority to be much more vast. I brought that up to prove that the decision is pretty evenly split and men being on either side of the fence is kind of irrelevant.
It is very much a man or woman issue. Men shouldn't have a say beyond any discussion with his own partner over their collective fetuses, and even then the woman deserves to make the ultimate decision.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
I didn't say there weren't pro-life women. I also didn't suggest that all men would be pro-choice if they had to endure all the suffering of having an unwanted child. However, enough would change their mind for the majority to be much more vast. I brought that up to prove that the decision is pretty evenly split and men being on either side of the fence is kind of irrelevant.
It is very much a man or woman issue. Men shouldn't have a say beyond any discussion with his own partner over their collective fetuses, and even then the woman deserves to make the ultimate decision.

I honestly don't think it's a man and woman issue because it takes both parities to make one zygote. Each deserve their two cents. Though it is very tempting to agree with your point on how women get the final say.
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
I honestly don't think it's a man and woman issue because it takes both parities to make one zygote. Each deserve their two cents. Though it is very tempting to agree with your point on how women get the final say.
Men don't have to carry the pregnancy, and their bodies aren't affected by the practice.
 

Zero Nexus

Stand up, go for it
Men don't have to carry the pregnancy, and their bodies aren't affected by the practice.

And women ARE. That was my point. The fact that she may not physically be able to carry a baby for 9 months and give birth afterwards should be taken as a valid reason for wanting an abortion.
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
And women ARE. That was my point. The fact that she may not physically be able to carry a baby for 9 months and give birth afterwards should be taken as a valid reason for wanting an abortion.
I don't disagree with that, or are you concurring with me?
 

Mordent99

Banned

I-am-the-peel

Justice Forever
Personally, with the laws of abortion as they are, there should always be the choice for abortion, and if it is taken away, it will only lead to conflict.

Personally I'm against the concept of abortion. I believe life begins with the fetus and that abortion is murder, and should be counted as a crime of murder like any other under the law. I believe when people undertake unprotected intercourse, they should be prepared to face the consequences. However, if they do not necessarily feel they are up for the task of parenthood, or just don't want the child at all for whatever reason, they should still have the baby but allow others to adopt them as there are tens of thousands of people who cannot be parents but would make fantastic parents.

Just my own thoughts though, I know not everyone would agree with me and that my perspective is one-sided. But changing them now after just introducing them in the post-modernist era will only cause trouble. The choice should be kept available, but people should be encouraged to take more protection during intercourse and to plan ahead if they want a child.
 

Psychic

Really and truly
Glad to see so many pro-choicers here!

Personally, with the laws of abortion as they are, there should always be the choice for abortion, and if it is taken away, it will only lead to conflict.

Personally I'm against the concept of abortion. I believe life begins with the fetus and that abortion is murder, and should be counted as a crime of murder like any other under the law. I believe when people undertake unprotected intercourse, they should be prepared to face the consequences. However, if they do not necessarily feel they are up for the task of parenthood, or just don't want the child at all for whatever reason, they should still have the baby but allow others to adopt them as there are tens of thousands of people who cannot be parents but would make fantastic parents.

Just my own thoughts though, I know not everyone would agree with me and that my perspective is one-sided. But changing them now after just introducing them in the post-modernist era will only cause trouble. The choice should be kept available, but people should be encouraged to take more protection during intercourse and to plan ahead if they want a child.
I'm glad to see that you acknowledge the need for abortion to be legal and accessible! That said, I do want to respond to your middle paragraph.

Firstly, I think the idea that people should only have sex if they can "face the consequences" (ie raise a child together) to be abhorrent. Having a baby is not a punishment for having sex, and it should never be viewed that way. If you value life and consider it to be sacred, then you shouldn't view child-rearing as a way to get back at people for having sex. Just because you're ready to have sex does not mean you're ready to be a parent, whether from a maturity, psychological, emotional, biological or economic standpoint. Additionally, by this logic, a couple who accidentally gets pregnant is "irresponsible" and should have to pay for their failure...except that, again by this logic, these are precisely the kinds of people who are unfit to be parents. Forcing them to raise a child is in itself responsible, and not only does it impact them for the rest of their lives, but it impacts the life of the baby as well.

Secondly, it's very easy to tell someone to "just put the baby up for adoption," but that's not a real solution. First of all, it takes 9 months to carry a baby to term, meaning that the mother will have to drop out of school or work, which can have long-term consequences. If she already has a family (and many people who seek abortions already have one or more children), then it can impact the family as well. Second, the adoption and foster care system is already overwhelmed - there are currently too many children without permanent, healthy homes. Having women carry unwanted pregnancies just to put the baby up for adoption is, again, cruel to both the parent and to the child, and to the system as a whole.

Lastly, the discussion of when personhood begins is a complicated one, and is something I think needs to be addressed separately. Currently, there is no real, scientific answer as to when a fertalized egg becomes a person. I personally can't get behind the idea that a zygote should have the same rights as or should be treated equally to a person. That said, as shown in Mordent99's link, even if a fetus was a person it wouldn't really change the fact that you can't force a person to sacrifice any part of themselves (be it an organ or their entire body) for another.


~Psychic
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
Glad to see so many pro-choicers here!
I am mostly (99%) pro-choice. It's hard to wrap around why men should take women's rights away. There are some pro-life women, but I digress.

The only thing I would say against abortion is if, say, a woman was going to have a half-black child, and decided to abort it because of racism.

Though that wouldn't be that common, and I don't think most women would want to terminate a pregnancy for the hell of it. It doesn't seem to me as something easy to cope with anyway.

Edit: Just to be clear, I don't think the right should be taken away even if the case is due to racism.
 

ellie

Δ
Staff member
Admin
so for people who actually are against abortion (or even people who are pro-choice too), how do you feel about in vitro fertilization? i only ask because i know some super religious people irl who either support ivf or have even had ivf babies themselves, while being against abortion. i just started working as an embryologist and we discard a ton of embryos for many different reasons. it always seemed odd to me to hold those 2 positions simultaneously.
 

Psychic

Really and truly
I am mostly (99%) pro-choice. It's hard to wrap around why men should take women's rights away. There are some pro-life women, but I digress.

The only thing I would say against abortion is if, say, a woman was going to have a half-black child, and decided to abort it because of racism.

Though that wouldn't be that common, and I don't think most women would want to terminate a pregnancy for the hell of it. It doesn't seem to me as something easy to cope with anyway.

Edit: Just to be clear, I don't think the right should be taken away even if the case is due to racism.
That's an...interesting example, if only because it raises the question of "if you were so racist you would want to abort a half-black fetus, why would you have sex with a black person to begin with?"

That's definitely a messed up reason to abort a fetus, but I would think about the kind of life the child would have had had it been born. Likely, they would either grow up in an abusive home with a parent who doesn't like them, or they'd go up for adoption, which really isn't ideal for reasons I stated before. I can't really say that person has any less of a right to abort, even if I don't agree with them. In the same vein, I am okay with parents deciding to abort a fetus if they know in advance it will have serious health problems, especially if they don't have the means to support that child.

I think a more interesting question is sex-selective abortion, which has been a significant problem in some parts of the world. I don't really know what the solution is there, aside from education and changing the culture entirely, which is no easy feat. Thoughts?


so for people who actually are against abortion (or even people who are pro-choice too), how do you feel about in vitro fertilization? i only ask because i know some super religious people irl who either support ivf or have even had ivf babies themselves, while being against abortion. i just started working as an embryologist and we discard a ton of embryos for many different reasons. it always seemed odd to me to hold those 2 positions simultaneously.
Huh, I didn't realize that supporting IVF and abortion could be at odds, maybe there's something I'm missing here. Could you elaborate a bit more?

~Psychic
 
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ellie

Δ
Staff member
Admin
Huh, I didn't realize that supporting IVF and abortion could be at odds, maybe there's something I'm missing here. Could you elaborate a bit more?

~Psychic
no i meant NOT supporting abortion but supporting IVF would be at odds. because IVF typically destroys a lot of embryos.
 

Bananarama

The light is coming
I think a more interesting question is sex-selective abortion, which has been a significant problem in some parts of the world. I don't really know what the solution is there, aside from education and changing the culture entirely, which is no easy feat. Thoughts?

Yeah, I think that educating the general population would be the best way to go. In China, for example, pregnancies are more often terminated if the baby is female, and this is resulting in a huge gender gap among the population, with men outnumbering women by a significant amount. This was especially the case with the one-child policy, which was abolished not too long ago. I think that there are undeniable cultural differences like that which really determine which baby "deserves" to be born, according to the mother.

As for me, I'm 100% pro-abortion, as long as the woman approves.
 
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