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The Most Mistreated Ash's Companions

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Who said anything about XY sucking ? My problem is the misinformation being spread.
There's people like me who really wanted to see the companions shine more than what it is shown in the anime, have them dealing with threats and save the world instead of clinging into Ash and have him taking care of everything and participating to every fights, the character I dislike the most. Other series did much better jobs when it's about giving the spotlights to the companions and giving satisfying outcomes, instead to rushing things to advance the plot.
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
There's people like me who really wanted to see the companions shine more than what it is shown in the anime, have them dealing with threats and save the world instead of clinging into Ash and have him taking care of everything and participating to every fights, the character I dislike the most. Other series did much better jobs when it's about giving the spotlights to the companions and giving satisfying outcomes, instead to rushing things to advance the plot.

I can understand what you are getting at. I saw the complete opposite. I have no problem with how people perceive things that happen in the show. My problem is intentionally spreading false information like "The writers wanted to ignore her" which is based on your (not yours exactly, the person who said it) personal feelings related to the matter and is something the person wants to believe rather than something that can be proven true in the current or future circumstances. Their statement holds as much credibility as me saying "He/She assassinated Lincoln because I dislike him/her".
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
I can understand what you are getting at. I saw the complete opposite. I have no problem with how people perceive things that happen in the show. My problem is intentionally spreading false information like "The writers wanted to ignore her" which is based on your (not yours exactly, the person who said it) personal feelings related to the matter and is something the person wants to believe rather than something that can be proven true in the current or future circumstances. Their statement holds as much credibility as me saying "He/She assassinated Lincoln because I dislike him/her".
I can understand where Pokegirl_Fan is going at. She wanted to see the main female characters doing badass stuffs and being more independent. She certainly doesn't care about Ash, because she already saw what he can do in the past series many times already.

Serena's goal, the Pokemon Showcases, despite helping her development, was clearly rushed, as we can tell the lack of passion the writers had on them and wanted to get over with.

XY was my 1st full series I watched, so my expectations were higher at the time. I disliked that the writers made Serena's unfinished battles as a trend to the point it's more disturbing that her Pokemon combined attacks couldn't flinch Team Flare Goon's Pokemons despite she stated she wanted to help others to deal with threats.

And I was looking forward to see her post-XY special episode so she can be her own character instead of her relationship with Ash, potentially interacting with the past Pokegirls. The producers didn't deliver it for unknown reasons. So I made a fan project about her and get over with. I didn't care what the anime would do to her afterwards.
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
I can understand where Pokegirl_Fan is going at. She wanted to see the main female characters doing badass stuffs and being more independent. She certainly doesn't care about Ash, because she already saw what he can do in the past series many times already.

This is a very skewed mentality to me. There is no reason for a 140 - 190 episode show to keep the characters doing 'Badass' things (an obsession which I never understood).

And all pokegirls have had more than one side to them. Misty would often get angry but show her motherly side with Togepi. May and Dawn would train strong Pokemon like Blaziken and Mamoswine while also being kind and having girly habits. Iris would call others kid and act like one herself sometimes but also risk her life to calm Hydreigon. Serena would like to go shopping but also crash a truck with her Rhyhorn if the situation does arise (XY 53). None of them were complete badass for 150 episodes and neither were they supposed to be. That's boring and repetitive.

All girls are shown to be the 'take charge' kind they have to be and the 'slow down' kind when they want to be. There is no need for "muh pokegirl KO'ed team rocket. Oh she is so badass" to make them one dimensional and bring them to the 'stu'ish category.


Serena's goal, the Pokemon Showcases, despite helping her development, was clearly rushed, as we can tell the lack of passion the writers had on them and wanted to get over with.

This is again, incorrect and largely irrelevant in Serena's case. Serena's arc doesn't start with showcases, neither does it end with the master class. Her arcs characterisation begins from XY001 and ends in XY140. There is no 'I didn't see it that way' it. There are points to her personality that are introduced in the first 4 episodes which are expanded till XY 40 and then worked upon till XY140.

I can also say they didn't let Dawn do anything in the Sinnoh League so her arc is rushed, but that would be false because a statement like that implied I never understood her arc in the first place. Nor did I understood what the focus points for her arc are.

You are perfectly allowed to dislike not making Showcases the end and start of the season. But you cannot pin the blame of something you wanted to see on the writers for something they never intended to do.

XY was my 1st full series I watched, so my expectations were higher at the time. I disliked that the writers made Serena's unfinished battles as a trend to the point it's more disturbing that her Pokemon combined attacks couldn't flinch Team Flare Goon's Pokemons despite she stated she

There were 4 - 5 grunts targeting her at once if I remember correctly. And she never had the job of beating them. She is a performer and they are world ending psychopathic criminals. She had to hold them off for Mairin and Sycamore to do their job.

And I was looking forward to see her post-XY special episode so she can be her own character instead of her relationship with Ash, potentially interacting with the past Pokegirls. The producers didn't deliver it for unknown reasons. So I made a fan project about her and get over with. I didn't care what the anime would do to her afterwards.

Then you are already infinitely more intelligent than people who moan about things that never happened.

TL;DR :- You can dislike any character for not being what you wanted them to be, but you cannot criticise the character for not being what you wanted him/her to be. I can certainly dislike Ash for not being a breeder (example), but I cannot criticise him for not being a breeder as being a breeder was never something that the creator wanted Ash to be. I can say I dislike his handling, but saying his handling is bad is not appropriate as I never understood the intention of the creator.

Just tell me if I'm beating a dead horse and we can leave it as it is.
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
I'm certainly allowed to criticize how the writers handled the characters and I certainly don't treat the writers like they were some kind of flawless individuals, especially for me who is coming from a creative community that had the tools to create things we want and more willing to challenge the developers/writers.

So, no I'm not one of those people who criticize the writers but still begging on them afterwards. For me, one full series is more than enough to me so I can find a way and get over the show issues.
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
I think my wording was unclear. So to prevent any misunderstanding, I never said or meant to not criticise the writers. Artists appreciate constructive criticism. I only take issues with people who think "Boo, he is not exactly how I envisioned" is constructive criticism while they never tried to understand what the 'he' was meant to be. Writers are not perfect, everyone knows that. But making baseless and uneducated statements like "They wanted to ignore him" because of not matching your dream world idea of 'him' is not something that should be endorsed. I'll leave it at that.
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Yeah, let's leave at that. Sorry, to be critical about XY. My expectations were much higher from that series for being the 1st full series, and I didn't watch much of the anime before XY so I can't really comment on them. My emotions towards the series lead me to push harder on my fan project that when I made it, it really calm me down about the show's expectations, so I didn't have any regrets.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I really like how they treated Bonnie. Amazing character

I don't think she was horrible, but that element to her got on my nerves. Multiple times she was a loudmouth or troublemaker and at best CLEMONT would be the sole butt monkey for it or have to fix the problems she made (eg. her using him in a bargain with a princess and then forgetting about him, the girlfriend episode, even their final special). These moments wouldn't be so bad standalone but compounded and with her never improving, they gave a bit of an unlikeable 'karma houdini' dent to her. A little brat can be sympathetic but only if they get consequences for it sometimes. Max did at least pay or get reigned in sometimes, making him a little sympathetic, Bonnie NEVER did despite being ten fold a pain he was. Hell an episode that gave Bonnie some sort of actual agency where she had to fix one of her follies could have developed her well.

The same problem tended to occur with the main cast in XY, Ash for example was always plot armoured so his recklessness was always enabled (compared to say OS or SM where he's still as stupidly impulsive as before but at least is a butt monkey for it). Lots of episodes seemed to set up a parable or 'antic spirals out of control' plot, only for it to be resolved far too easily with no implication the characters learned from their mistake (eg. the cross dressing episode). Only Clemont had some of effective foibles in this regard since he was the comic relief, if still understated. I think the lack of 'actions have consequences' situations in XY cost for a lot of pathos and humanity to the cast compared to other series, where they would at least have clearer moments of the companions having to face their uglier side or suffer severe consequences for one of their misgivings.
 

UltimateNinja

Praying for the holy relics
I liked Bonnie. Her actual character fit her age perfectly (people who criticize the series for the character to be acting to mature for their ages should appreciate that) and for a fourth wheel character she actually got a decent amount of episodes with the icing on the cake being her relevance in the Flare arc. Compared to Max or other third wheel characters she was definitely one of the better ones.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Yes, but the older brother / sister should know when their younger brother / sister has gone too far with their attitude, because that is part of their humanity as characters.
This is also part of the criticism about how the characters were represented during XY, among which they have included Ash being the one chosen by everyone who everyone admires and recognizes even when they just met him.
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
Lots of episodes seemed to set up a parable or 'antic spirals out of control' plot, only for it to be resolved far too easily with no implication the characters learned from their mistake

Can you list those episodes ? You listed one and called it lots of. I can only remember that and Keeper for keeps. Kindly remind me of the plethora of episodes that were setup that way and ended abruptly.


Yeah it's true Bonnie had no impact on Serena's focus, the writers purposely chose not to focus on Serena much the first year. It would have been the same no matter who was on the cast.

They were focusing on the entire cast at that point. I already stated what happened in the first 40 episodes with Serena earlier.

Her arcs characterisation begins from XY001 and ends in XY140. There is no 'I didn't see it that way' it. There are points to her personality that are introduced in the first 4 episodes which are expanded till XY 40 and then worked upon till XY140.



Hell an episode that gave Bonnie some sort of actual agency where she had to fix one of her follies could have developed her well.

The Flabebe episode, the Tyrunt episode, The Lapras episode. All showed how her demeanor was that of a child who was unwillingly to say goodbye. Which would lead to the final episode with Squishy where she understands the importance of saying goodbye. All of which happened before XYZ and worked on her 'follies'. You are ignoring those because ... ?
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
They were focusing on the entire cast at that point. I already stated what happened in the first 40 episodes with Serena earlier.

Title cards (main characters most of the time):

Ash: XY001, XY002, XY003, XY004, XY005, XY006, XY008, XY010, XY012, XY013, XY017, XY020, XY022, XY023, XY024, XY025, XY028, XY030, XY035, XY036, XY037
Serena: XY007, XY021, XY026, XY040
Clemont: XY009, XY015, XY018, XY029, XY038
Bonnie: XY016, XY027
Pikachu: XY011, XY019, XY039
Korrina: XY031, XY032, XY033, XY034

The fact that a temporary character got the same number of focused episodes than a main character like Serena during the first 40 episodes is concerning
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
Title cards (main characters most of the time):

Ash: XY001, XY002, XY003, XY004, XY005, XY006, XY008, XY010, XY012, XY013, XY017, XY020, XY022, XY023, XY024, XY025, XY028, XY030, XY035, XY036, XY037
Serena: XY007, XY021, XY026, XY040
Clemont: XY009, XY015, XY018, XY029, XY038
Bonnie: XY016, XY027
Pikachu: XY011, XY019, XY039
Korrina: XY031, XY032, XY033, XY034

The fact that a temporary character got the same number of focused episodes than a main character like Serena during the first 40 episodes is concerning

Again I appreciate that you took the time to organise the data. But episode title really don't mean anything. If you want to know why, then Ash has his face on the tile cards for the first 6 episodes straight. That doesn't mean that everything that happened was only for Ash. Screentime can be shared. Ash would only be the face of the episode because he is given priority due to his status of long running protagonists. If you still insist, these are the moments for the companion in the first 7 episodes.

  • Clemont being shown to be profound battler as he was able to fair well against Pikachu and Ash's combination with a newly caught Bunnelby. Do note that no one in the cast aside from Bonnie and Clemont knew that he is a gym leader. They already set up the reveal of this information.
  • Serena was shown to be a lazy and spoiled girl.
  • Bonnie was shown to be hyperactive girl who plays off Clemont's less athletic style.
  • Bonnie also has a positive image of all Pokemon and finds spending time with them very pleasing.
  • Serena is then shown to hate Rhyhorn racing and something use couldn't take anymore. The episode also showed her bittersweet relationship with her mother.
  • Clemont was shown as an inventer who wants to help people and Pokemon with his science. He also is shy around girls.
  • Bonnie on the other hand is delighted at the sight of young woman of her brother's age to set them up with him. Further embarrassing Clemont due to his general shyness.
  • Serena is then shown to like fashion and to further expand her relation with her mother, wears what she doesn't chooses. Furthermore she is shown to be very fragile in the outer world. The girl who lived under her mother's care for so long but hated the forced training now starts to show signs of inexperience and lack of knowledge of the outer world. This is shown through her fear of forests, staying outside, stray Pokemon etc. Further showing how used she had become to the comforts of her home.
  • Clemont catches Dedenne for Bonnie. Dedenne himself is very lazy and likes to sleep in her bag.
  • Viola is introduced and Bonnie performs her 'Marry my brother' gag. Her knowledge on marriage is very limited, but the thought of it is something she finds amusing and like a little kid, she takes out her fun on her sibling, which happens to be Clemont.
  • Serena comes to find Ash and give him back the handkerchief. But when asked by Ash and Clemont on what she wants to do, she doesn't have an answer. She let her frustration of Rhyhorn racing get the better of her and leaving her house without a goal in mind. She also gains a new appreciation for Rhyhorn racing in XY 07 and understands that her mother was not just forcing her into a fruitless activity. Something that will be expanded upon in XY 53.
  • And Froakie is also shown to be willing to protect other and holding himself responsible. Something that would play part in the later Ash Greninja arc and in the (bulllshit) realease.
All of these (I might have missed something) are related to the companions but happened in episodes that are listed under Ash. And these are only the first 6 - 7 episodes. As I said, screentime can be shared. You don't need the entire 22 minutes to yourself just to have a role.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Again I appreciate that you took the time to organise the data. But episode title really don't mean anything. If you want to know why, then Ash has his face on the tile cards for the first 6 episodes straight. That doesn't mean that everything that happened was only for Ash. Screentime can be shared. Ash would only be the face of the episode because he is given priority due to his status of long running protagonists. If you still insist, these are the moments for the companion in the first 7 episodes.

  • Clemont being shown to be profound battler as he was able to fair well against Pikachu and Ash's combination with a newly caught Bunnelby. Do note that no one in the cast aside from Bonnie and Clemont knew that he is a gym leader. They already set up the reveal of this information.
  • Serena was shown to be a lazy and spoiled girl.
  • Bonnie was shown to be hyperactive girl who plays off Clemont's less athletic style.
  • Bonnie also has a positive image of all Pokemon and finds spending time with them very pleasing.
  • Serena is then shown to hate Rhyhorn racing and something use couldn't take anymore. The episode also showed her bittersweet relationship with her mother.
  • Clemont was shown as an inventer who wants to help people and Pokemon with his science. He also is shy around girls.
  • Bonnie on the other hand is delighted at the sight of young woman of her brother's age to set them up with him. Further embarrassing Clemont due to his general shyness.
  • Serena is then shown to like fashion and to further expand her relation with her mother, wears what she doesn't chooses. Furthermore she is shown to be very fragile in the outer world. The girl who lived under her mother's care for so long but hated the forced training now starts to show signs of inexperience and lack of knowledge of the outer world. This is shown through her fear of forests, staying outside, stray Pokemon etc. Further showing how used she had become to the comforts of her home.
  • Clemont catches Dedenne for Bonnie. Dedenne himself is very lazy and likes to sleep in her bag.
  • Viola is introduced and Bonnie performs her 'Marry my brother' gag. Her knowledge on marriage is very limited, but the thought of it is something she finds amusing and like a little kid, she takes out her fun on her sibling, which happens to be Clemont.
  • Serena comes to find Ash and give him back the handkerchief. But when asked by Ash and Clemont on what she wants to do, she doesn't have an answer. She let her frustration of Rhyhorn racing get the better of her and leaving her house without a goal in mind. She also gains a new appreciation for Rhyhorn racing and understands that her mother was not just forcing her into a fruitless activity.
  • And Froakie is also shown to be willing to protect other. Something that would play part in the later Ash Greninja arc and in the (bulllshit) realease.
All of these (I might have missed something) are related to the companions but happened in episodes that are listed under Ash. And these are only the first 6 - 7 episodes. As I said, screentime can be shared. You don't need the entire 22 minutes to yourself just to have a role.

They appearing doesn't mean that they got the respective focus they deserved or needed for to be decently developed during the first season of XY. They were introductions (as always with Ash's new friends) but they didn't do much, even Korrina did more than Clemont or Serena at that point in the series and she got a proper arc before any main character but Ash.
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
They appearing doesn't mean that they got the respective focus they deserved or needed for to be decently developed during the first season of XY. They were introductions (as always with Ash's new friends) but they didn't do much, even Korrina did more than Clemont or Serena at that point in the series and she got a proper arc before any main character but Ash.

But arcs of main character aren't supposed to end in the first season. They are interwoven with the story. If they were over in first 30 episodes, then they are clearly bad. Korrina did more than them because it was her time. Imagine if Chimchar defeated Paul 5 episodes after his capture.

But I guess I am just arguing about taste here. You probably wanted more fast paced focus in the beginning, I wanted it to culminate in the end, which worked very well for XY in my eyes.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
But arcs of main character aren't supposed to end in the first season. They are interwoven with the story. If they were over in first 30 episodes, then they are clearly bad. Korrina did more than them because it was her time. Imagine if Chimchar defeated Paul 5 episodes after his capture.

But I guess I am just arguing about taste here. You probably wanted more fast paced focus in the beginning, I wanted it to culminate in the end, which worked very well for XY in my eyes.

No, I wanted good pacing in the series with character development, and sadly XY wasn't great in that (tbf as most series): Ash was okey as always, Serena started too late in her goal and not having a decent number of focused episodes for that (even Aria wasn't presentated as the Kalos Queen in her debut during a Serena's focused episode), Clemont was mainly irrelevant after his gym battle with some redemption during the Team Flare arc, and Bonnie wasn't a proper trainer, but she got a decent development with Squishy...until the last season.
 

Psajdak

Well-Known Member
I myself never cared about development from Pokemon characters, no matter who they are.

To me, it was always about them just being around, doing stuff, even if they aren't getting any focus.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Can you list those episodes ? You listed one and called it lots of. I can only remember that and Keeper for keeps. Kindly remind me of the plethora of episodes that were setup that way and ended abruptly.

The aforementioned Princess episode and final special, multiple 'antagonistic Pokemon episodes' like the Florges, Pangoro and Grumpig ones, and again ANYTIME Ash was reckless in that series.

Maybe I exaggerated the number but it sticks out because there was almost never an exception, a case the characters suffered harsh consequences for a mistake they made and had to acknowledge their wrongdoing and fix the problem in a way that didn't seem absurdly easy. Alain's arc is the closest and even then it's handwaved in an absurdly quick way and Ash escapes himself rather than letting Alain make the moral decision.

Clemont's personality was that he was meek and insecure in the beginning, whereas Bonnie was the outspoken little sister. And since Clemont was also older he obviously realized his kid sister was being...well a kid. So it makes sense they had that dynamic. I see you bring up Max, but the difference there is May was also very outspoken, had a temper, which is why May and Max argued where Clemont just accepted or got embarrassed by his sister.

I get that but there's plenty of similar 'meek nice guy and overbearing brat' dynamics in fiction that have rules of karma where the meek character gets vindicated and the overbearing character gets their comeuppance or is at least acknowledged that their actions kinda make them a jerk. It's generally only shows that aim for a deliberately mean spirited tint where the meek guy is always the one that unfairly suffers.

Bonnie was ALWAYS enabled, that was my issue, not that she had that characteristic at all but she always got away with it and the show always treated her as cool for it, which made her rather unsympathetic. I get she wasn't a totally nasty and vile little hellion, but her behaviour compounded in so many cases she got a free pass made her pretty annoying, especially since they fluctuated whether she was smart enough to know better.

Like Misty and Iris could be bratty demeaning jerks as well, but they at least balanced it with moments they got a comeuppance for it or were made to acknowledge they'd done something wrong or had to develop out of their arrogance. Maybe not as often as they should have, but they still got their token moments it was treated as a flaw and they were brought down to earth hard which also applied for some character development. Like imagine if EVERY episode used that 'avoiding slapstick' gag with Iris, or Misty was NEVER made to acknowledge her similarities to Ash.
 
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