The Most Mistreated Ash's Companions

[AznKei]

I myself never cared about development from Pokemon characters, no matter who they are.

To me, it was always about them just being around, doing stuff, even if they aren't getting any focus.

How long have you been watching the show? To me, in a course of one full series I was from "I wanted to see the most impressive character developments the anime has to offer!" to "Just entertain me. If they can't do it then that's too bad!".

 

[DatsRight]

How long have you been watching the show? To me, in a course of one full series I was from "I wanted to see the most impressive character developments the anime has to offer!" to "Just entertain me. If they can't do it then that's too bad!".

Yeah I think that's why the likes of Kiawe and Sophocles impressed me since they weren't epic in their development, but they kept getting these ongoing little tidbits as the series progressed which felt kinda satisfying to put together and even besides that it was fun watching their synergy with other characters and just how they meshed into a standard plotline.

There's many other characters in the anime that apply as getting really thorough character arcs and yet in normal episodes, they tend to just be background noise and don't really play into the entertainment value unless the spotlight is focused on them specifically. Development is just one part of what makes a character compelling, they have to work into the rest of the show too.

 

[Sonnas]

Yeah I think that's why the likes of Kiawe and Sophocles impressed me since they weren't epic in their development, but they kept getting these ongoing little tidbits as the series progressed which felt kinda satisfying to put together and even besides that it was fun watching their synergy with other characters and just how they meshed into a standard plotline.

There's many other characters in the anime that apply as getting really thorough character arcs and yet in normal episodes, they tend to just be background noise and don't really play into the entertainment value unless the spotlight is focused on them specifically. Development is just one part of what makes a character compelling, they have to work into the rest of the show too.

I mean don’t they also be in the background too? I feel like the way you talk, it seems like you like the SM cast more than others from other seasons.

 

[Aryash Bajaj]

To be honest, my favorites parts of the SM cast are the characters who didn't get proper arcs. Lillie had one and I hated almost every part of Aether. SM Ash is probably my least favourite Ash. The rest of the classmates work surprisingly well to salvage what they could after those two lay waste to the entirety of SM. Kiawe and Lana can actually display humour which is not limited to gutter faces. Mallow was neglected but they never made me dislike her. Sophocles has few focus episodes but those are well done with the least 'out of their ass' or never foreshadowed before elements to them.

Lillie and Ash on the other hand are enough for me not even think about watching SM.

 

[RafaSceptile]

I mean don’t they also be in the background too? I feel like the way you talk, it seems like you like the SM cast more than others from other seasons.

Not exactly, SM was the first series when not all Ash's Friends appeared in every single episode, so they were not always in the background.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

I still don't understand how people can call SM Ash the worst Ash when he has a great personality but at the same time very competent during Battles. He is not Even Close to be as Bad as BW Ash

BW killed Ash and made him a pointless character to follow from that point forward imo lol.

 

[DatsRight]

I liked SM Ash too. I thought he was a good mix of silly and flawed while still being competent and insightful. His biggest downsides were maybe over saturating screen time and humour, though he still had good dynamics to work with the others most of the time. I don't feel like he 'stole the show' the same way as in XY as much as just padded the moments they couldn't think up for anyone else to use (which is probably a more fluid choice than 'Team Rocket interruptions' all the time).

I admit to favouritism to SM though I do think Mallow and Lana were used rather underwhelmingly for a lot of it and Lillie had a good character but didn't get enough agency and achievements (she should have at least got to do more with Snowy and Magearna). I think Kiawe and Sophocles stuck out because they were good in group episodes or ones that didn't necessarily revolve around them, especially Kiawe who got the least amount of episodes he was centre stage but was a good supporting character in TONS of others, something I feel should have been the strong point for previous male companions. They're also proof Ash can be used heavily in other characters' episodes without stealing their thunder outright, largely because they had a good two way shtick and synergy with him.

 

[Morax]

I still don't understand how people can call SM Ash the worst Ash when he has a great personality but at the same time very competent during Battles. He is not Even Close to be as Bad as BW Ash

SM ash is no different than XY or DP ash, they just turned him into a buttmonkey. This "personality" is nothing more than a side effect of comic relief. Tbh ash has never been a compelling character to me mainly due to his one dimensional interactions with everybody. Compare that to (say) goku: gohan and krillin look up to him, beerus hates his guts, vegeta has a love-hate relationship with him, frieza wants to bury him, zeno wants to play with him etc. These dynamics help keep a protagonist fresh. Ash is just generic 'friendly' to everybody and everybody is 'friendly' to him.

 

[Psajdak]

How long have you been watching the show? To me, in a course of one full series I was from "I wanted to see the most impressive character developments the anime has to offer!" to "Just entertain me. If they can't do it then that's too bad!".

I started watching Pokemon during early 2000s (Pokemania era) dubbed in Croatian (from already dubbed English version); I was following series pretty much from the very start up to somewhere into AG.

After that I sort of just stopped, but got back into it with Best Wishes! which I was watching with original audio, since by that point I already kinda became subs only person.

Once Ash parted with Iris and Dent, I haven't continued, for reasons, but I did checked episodes where Misty and Brock returned, and for this current 2019 series, I take a look at it from time to time.

...

Too bad officially Pokemon will always be dub only.

 

[DatsRight]

I think the thing about BW and SM's companions is that they were 'slow burners', rather than getting big elaborate arcs, they tended to just keep getting nuanced tidbits of limelight where we'd learn a bit more about them each time, with the better examples generally piecing together in a satisfying way when it was all done.

Stuff like Iris' arrogance against her Pokemon's attitude problems, or Kiawe branching out of his very one note strategy as a trainer. These weren't really flashy big centrepieces but more things that slowly but cathartically built up the character piece by piece. I could argue that Misty applied into this territory as well, were it not for that infamous era in Johto where they barely focused on her and Brock at all.

 

[Epicocity]

I think the thing about BW and SM's companions is that they were 'slow burners', rather than getting big elaborate arcs, they tended to just keep getting nuanced tidbits of limelight where we'd learn a bit more about them each time, with the better examples generally piecing together in a satisfying way when it was all done.

Stuff like Iris' arrogance against her Pokemon's attitude problems, or Kiawe branching out of his very one note strategy as a trainer. These weren't really flashy big centrepieces but more things that slowly but cathartically built up the character piece by piece. I could argue that Misty applied into this territory as well, were it not for that infamous era in Johto where they barely focused on her and Brock at all.

Yeah, that's not what a slow burn character means. Serena and Koharu are slow burns; their development slowly builds over the course of a series to transform them. SM's cast largely had shallow, immediate or no development, largely thanks to its cast size. Learning new info about characters is not a slow burn. That's just poor establishment of a character for something so pivotal.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Eh, I don't feel Mallow or Ash develop at all in SM.

Lillie is obvious, but at the same time her change is so immediate it becomes shallow. Lana changes decently, but really only so far as she gets physically stronger, so to speak. Kiawe sort of middles; he's a weird, complex case. Sophocles had the most market change, but it just came so late in the series where they figured out his direction that it unfortunately feels shallow.

Ash didn't really change one whit. No, not even the loving Alola thing since he loved it in the first 20 episodes.

And Mallow...learning she has a dead mom did nothing for her as a character, especially when it's literally never brought up again. She starts out as the happy-go-lucky girl who treats everyone nice and wants to cook, and ends up as...the happy-go-lucky girl who treats everyone nice and wants to cook. Heck, they literally had to give her a form of reverse character development just to give her something at the League! That's how static she was. Really should have made her a supporting character over a main and she'd have been much better.

Ash didn't develop at all??
What?
SM is actually the first series in a long while that actually takes Ash's character forward in a meaningful way
It's funny how you boil it down to ash loving Alola being said in the 20th episode so it doesnt count... lmao
The 20th episode was a starting point. Alola was the first region Ash actually lived in besides Kanto, had a family and the first region where he could actually embrace the culture of Alola. In the 20th episode he actually first lays down how be appreciates the region and that feeling goes on for the whole series as Ash continues to embrace the culture, protect it, interact with it, bond with it, bond with his Pokémon, help them through their development, meet death in unique and certain ways, and he actually develops as a trainer. Not only does he finally win a Pokémon league conference (Yep, Alola league counts), he also becomes the strongest trainer in Alola, and then is also shown to be unsure as if what to do, before being inspired to travel the world, setting up the next series. This series actually breaks the mold, has ash interact with the region in a new way, learn new values, experience new things and progress on his path as a trainer in a way unlike before, but no just coz he's more comedic he had no development
In that same way how did XY ash develop? He wanted to be strong since the start, so I can say also he didn't really do anything except be a bland shonen character.
As for mallow, her goal didn't need her to develop as much as past companions, mallows development is based around her characterization instead of her goal, like most SM's cast. Finally getting closure with her mother is something you discard really shows me that for you development is something you find was enjoyable then what was shown, so this is all a moot point anyway in discussing with you

 

[Morax]

Alola was the first region Ash actually lived in besides Kanto,

Actually, ash has never displayed an emotional attachment to kanto or even his biological mother (He only loves his pet animals) so you might as well say that alola is the only home he's ever known. He was a technically a hunter-gatherer before SM.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Actually, ash has never displayed an emotional attachment to kanto or even his biological mother (He only loves his pet animals) so you might as well say that alola is the only home he's ever known. He was a technically a hunter-gatherer before SM.

I'm pretty sure he has displayed attachment to Delia lmao

 

[Morax]

I'm pretty sure he has displayed attachment to Delia lmao

To the same extent as kukui or burnett? Pretty sure he hasn't. Delia is at the bottom of Ash's "people i care about" list.

 

[Epicocity]

Ash didn't develop at all??
What?
SM is actually the first series in a long while that actually takes Ash's character forward in a meaningful way
It's funny how you boil it down to ash loving Alola being said in the 20th episode so it doesnt count... lmao
The 20th episode was a starting point. Alola was the first region Ash actually lived in besides Kanto, had a family and the first region where he could actually embrace the culture of Alola. In the 20th episode he actually first lays down how be appreciates the region and that feeling goes on for the whole series as Ash continues to embrace the culture, protect it, interact with it, bond with it, bond with his Pokémon, help them through their development, meet death in unique and certain ways, and he actually develops as a trainer. Not only does he finally win a Pokémon league conference (Yep, Alola league counts), he also becomes the strongest trainer in Alola, and then is also shown to be unsure as if what to do, before being inspired to travel the world, setting up the next series. This series actually breaks the mold, has ash interact with the region in a new way, learn new values, experience new things and progress on his path as a trainer in a way unlike before, but no just coz he's more comedic he had no development
In that same way how did XY ash develop? He wanted to be strong since the start, so I can say also he didn't really do anything except be a bland shonen character.
As for mallow, her goal didn't need her to develop as much as past companions, mallows development is based around her characterization instead of her goal, like most SM's cast. Finally getting closure with her mother is something you discard really shows me that for you development is something you find was enjoyable then what was shown, so this is all a moot point anyway in discussing with you

See, a lot of this kind of falls at one part: "Ash is inspired to see the world".

Ash Ketchum. The boy with eternal wanderlust. Needs to be inspired? To see the world? Yeah, no. He shouldn't need to learn this.

The problem comes that you literally need to strip away things that make Ash who he is in order to develop him at this point. Like not trusting Lycanroc, or loving a region. These are all things Ash had no problem doing in past series that Alola now suddenly treats as needed. A friend once said "The Ula'ula arc is a great development arc...for anyone not named Ash Ketchum", and I think that can be extrapolated to all of SM.

Also, being strong is not character development. Winning a League is not character development (and especially not when Ash had no real personal stake to the point of having zero focus in the League compared to...everyone else. Heck, even the supposedly climactic battle with Guzma was framed from Guzma's perspective, not Ash's).

And to that point, yeah, Ash's development in XY could be considered borderline small, because he has what's called a Flat Character Arc, in which he starts out as the top, the ace of the show, inspiring everyone else, and then at a point begins to doubt himself, and eventually reaffirms his belief, making him more certain of who he is by series' end.

And yes, I discard Mallow's mother for this reason: it didn't matter until the episode it aired, and it didn't matter after. Was Mallow's mother even mentioned after her episode? (heck, she's the only parent literally listed as a CotD) And while it might inform Mallow's character, 108 episodes is far too late a time to introduce something that should be a key character trait and could have vastly improved the Aether Arc if, say, Mallow had a heart-to-heart with Lillie about moms. But it was something added for a cheap emotional ploy late in the series when they realized the girl hadn't done anything yet.

 

[DatsRight]

While I do think SM Ash's development was occasionally slapdash due to experimentation, I think it did work in terms of seeing a new light to him. Ash has never been forced to sit down and just appreciate the backdrop before, he's always been linear focused on his goal and just running to the next step in it. There was a real fish out of water take to Ash because he had to redesign his whole approach in Alola. The same happened with Team Rocket to some level.

Comfort zones seem to actually be a recurrent theme in SM as well as family, like most of the characters seem very used to going about things a very set and limited way and now have to branch out, which kinda works for characters who don't even travel much in this series.

Concerning the companions, I think generally their secondaries served as their 'bookend', the pivot that starts their development out of their comfort zone.

Kiawe for example demonstrates his inability to be versatile outside using Turtonator's tank approach and his Fireum Z move for everything, as observed with his Charizard's inactivity, his epic fail in the Pancake Race or the switch up episode where Popplio has to make the first step to reach out to him. Marowak appears, defeats Turtonator and crushes that approach, leading Kiawe to train a more versatile battle style for Turtonator and capture Marowak, who has a much more head on style. We keep getting little details as the series goes on that show Kiawe is trying to branch out, learning to trust Marowak and teach him Inferno Overdrive, unretiring Charizard after he (rather than Ash) impresses Tapu Fini, collecting a new Z Move and ultimately reaching the semi finals in the league with all three of his Pokemon used to their fullest potential.

Sophocles meanwhile starts off a rather sheltered and less sociable character, this culminating with the moving away mixup and him thinking everyone really hates his guts. However this is disproven and he gets Charjabug as a gift from his friends. Kiawe and Ash spend the whole series helping him bulk up Charjabug as a personal project, developing on his tech niche, giving him a personal rival and ultimately helping him evolve Vikavolt. Elements like his phobia (which is introduced very early via Togedemaru) against his desire to be an astronaut are pieced together nicely via Vikavolt helping him get over them, and by the end of the series Sophocles has started training independently, teaching both his Pokemon new moves, mastering Bugium Z and making it into the quarter finals of the league.

I think the key problem here is that while Kiawe and Sophocles got Marowak and Charjabug pretty early in and thus had plenty of time to slowly bulk up these small accomplishments and details about them that all pieced together nicely, the girls all got their secondaries near the end of the series. Shaymin for example bookends Mallow's nearest attempts to a character arc, similar small attempts to be more daring and less unsure and coddling, but Shaymin and Mallow's background and introspective didn't appear until some way into Ultra Legends, as said, there was barely anything building up to it beforehand, meaning she could only scrape up so many tidbits of development within a very small amount of time. She didn't have the time to be a slow burner.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

See, a lot of this kind of falls at one part: "Ash is inspired to see the world".

Ash Ketchum. The boy with eternal wanderlust. Needs to be inspired? To see the world? Yeah, no. He shouldn't need to learn this.

The problem comes that you literally need to strip away things that make Ash who he is in order to develop him at this point. Like not trusting Lycanroc, or loving a region. These are all things Ash had no problem doing in past series that Alola now suddenly treats as needed. A friend once said "The Ula'ula arc is a great development arc...for anyone not named Ash Ketchum", and I think that can be extrapolated to all of SM.

Also, being strong is not character development. Winning a League is not character development (and especially not when Ash had no real personal stake to the point of having zero focus in the League compared to...everyone else. Heck, even the supposedly climactic battle with Guzma was framed from Guzma's perspective, not Ash's).

And to that point, yeah, Ash's development in XY could be considered borderline small, because he has what's called a Flat Character Arc, in which he starts out as the top, the ace of the show, inspiring everyone else, and then at a point begins to doubt himself, and eventually reaffirms his belief, making him more certain of who he is by series' end.

And yes, I discard Mallow's mother for this reason: it didn't matter until the episode it aired, and it didn't matter after. Was Mallow's mother even mentioned after her episode? (heck, she's the only parent literally listed as a CotD) And while it might inform Mallow's character, 108 episodes is far too late a time to introduce something that should be a key character trait and could have vastly improved the Aether Arc if, say, Mallow had a heart-to-heart with Lillie about moms. But it was something added for a cheap emotional ploy late in the series when they realized the girl hadn't done anything yet.

The series doesn't take away Ash's wanderlust. Ash is still excited to always go to new locations and experience new things, which is why he decided to enroll in the school in the first place. This series helps Ash experience a new way to go about in his journey, grounding him in a place where he learns to embrace the culture and spirit of a region like never before, Ash always loves exploring a region and that aspect of his wasnt vanished, Ash loves Alola in a more personal way than any other region ever before thanks to his personal development, a trait carried out into the next series as well.

Nothing is stripped away from Ash to make him develop again, in EVERY series Ash encounters new problems with his new mons that he focuses on them together to get past to, in this case Lycanroc. Also Ula Ula had Ash for the first time face off against a dark type expert, so him falling for Nanu's tricks isnt out of character, especially since he gets a hold of himself and together with Lycanroc emerges victorious. By that same logic I could say Ash should never had a period of depression and a brief fall out with greninja as stripping away the Ash of previous regions by showing he has a flaw while trying to help his mons. So that argument doesnt really make sense to me

How is winning a league not development for Ash? It literally is a MAJOR milestone in his trainer career, allowing the narration to take him on a path of PWC in the next series which has even higher stakes. Its a major achievement, Ash's whole goal involves him being a strong trainer. The battle with Guzma's is framed from the latter's perspective because its a battle focusing on Guzma's growth and ending his character arc, the league took its time focusing on every battle giving development to everyone, and Ash vs Kukui, which is the closing point of his journey shows how far he comes.

Just because Mallow's mother story came later doesnt mean its invalidated, and it does carry forward with the inclusion of shaymin, which is the personification of Mallow's gratitude to her mother whom she lost, and in the end goes, while also having her mother's eyes. That is a major development point for Mallow.

 

[DatsRight]

I think they tied the league together well with Ash because they kept asking the key question he'd actually never thought of before this point, if he wins 'THEN WHAT?'. He is actually directly asked this and he can't even answer. The show had previously went on the mindset that Ash can't win the league because then his adventure ends, while SM concludes that there's still WAY more for him to do after that.

I think him winning the league in a series that branched out loads of different niches and trainer goals for Pokemon trainers also fit, like battling wasn't the be all end all quest for a trainer.

With Mallow again the issue is that they took WAY took long to 'click' her introspective element and give her Shaymin, who by the end of the series has only gained the same morsels of limelight Marowak and Charjabug had by the end of Season One. Like in Shaymin's one episode you see potential, since Shaymin is pretty much Mallow's timid 'momma's boy', she even coddles it a bit. They could have had an arc where she helps give it confidence and becomes more willing to utilise it, which would have culminated well in the league where she uses it for the battle royal and it has become confident enough a battler to qualify her into the second round. But alas they had waited too late and so much was already happening by then that Shaymin kinda ended up forgotten.

 

[Epicocity]

The series doesn't take away Ash's wanderlust. Ash is still excited to always go to new locations and experience new things, which is why he decided to enroll in the school in the first place. This series helps Ash experience a new way to go about in his journey, grounding him in a place where he learns to embrace the culture and spirit of a region like never before, Ash always loves exploring a region and that aspect of his wasnt vanished, Ash loves Alola in a more personal way than any other region ever before thanks to his personal development, a trait carried out into the next series as well.

Nothing is stripped away from Ash to make him develop again, in EVERY series Ash encounters new problems with his new mons that he focuses on them together to get past to, in this case Lycanroc. Also Ula Ula had Ash for the first time face off against a dark type expert, so him falling for Nanu's tricks isnt out of character, especially since he gets a hold of himself and together with Lycanroc emerges victorious. By that same logic I could say Ash should never had a period of depression and a brief fall out with greninja as stripping away the Ash of previous regions by showing he has a flaw while trying to help his mons. So that argument doesnt really make sense to me

How is winning a league not development for Ash? It literally is a MAJOR milestone in his trainer career, allowing the narration to take him on a path of PWC in the next series which has even higher stakes. Its a major achievement, Ash's whole goal involves him being a strong trainer. The battle with Guzma's is framed from the latter's perspective because its a battle focusing on Guzma's growth and ending his character arc, the league took its time focusing on every battle giving development to everyone, and Ash vs Kukui, which is the closing point of his journey shows how far he comes.

Just because Mallow's mother story came later doesnt mean its invalidated, and it does carry forward with the inclusion of shaymin, which is the personification of Mallow's gratitude to her mother whom she lost, and in the end goes, while also having her mother's eyes. That is a major development point for Mallow.

While Ash enrolling to the school to sate his wanderlust is...highly subject to debate, the fact remains that Ash does not need to be taught that there are other regions out there he should explore. This is Ash, someone who his mother has outright said is best when he's exploring and can't stay still in one place for any length of time. He doesn't need convincing or teaching to see a wider world. It was a point that never needed to be taught to him, so the fact that it suddenly did need to be taught is a clear case of removing a character trait to service whatever they wanted to do (and even so, Ash didn't start traveling the world next series until he had a job as a research fellow).

And Ash has faced Paul, someone who got under his skin in a far more fundamental way. Nanu played childish games in comparison to that. The problem isn't that there was an arc Ash underwent. The problem is that the arc...is one Ash went through. In XY it was that his need to win was becoming toxic to himself and his Pokemon. Plus Ash's fatal flaw is arrogance, often, and that plays right into it. In SM it was...he didn't trust Lycanroc and was scared of him? Never mind he once held no fear in hugging a rampaging Chimchar that bit him just to calm him down. It's writing an arc that Ash, of all people, never needed to learn. If it was a different protagonist, it would've been brilliant. But it wasn't.

And winning a League is not development. And we don't really know what Ash's goal is because it's so vague and nebulous on purpose. Either way, the League in most cases is the showcase of development (Ash vs. Paul being a definitive statement on style, Ash vs. Sawyer/Alain showing why Ash was who he was to them after he bounced back and renewed himself), not a development in and of itself. And while I agree that Ash vs. Kukui is a closing point that has the emotional weight of the father/son dynamic (which, sadly, only goes as far as you believe in it and whether it was needed), that wasn't the battle that won him the League.

And tell me: what did Shaymin do? Like seriously, what did it do the rest of the series other than the Battle Royal before it flew off. And having her mother's eyes is...kinda like a fun detail that doesn't matter. But again, what development for Mallow? What about her is different? Rather, if you completely removed 108, would you say anything is different about Mallow?