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The NEW Official Super Smash Bros. Brawl Thread

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also false. though the tier list is a ranking for the characters, it has absolutely no say on what happens in a match-up. as far as I'm concerned Sheik and Marth is actually an equal match-up despite either of them being higher than the other. are you honestly willing to also say that Pichu has the advantage over Mewtwo? (yes, Mewtwo is last in the recent tier list).
Are you saying there's no basis to Pichu being considered better as a character?
 
Uh, it's evident that in every fighting game there are characters that from are purely better than others. They have stronger attacks, can last longer, have more options, ect.

Yes, it is very player dependent, but tiers are based on a hypothetical situation.

I hardly see what makes them 'crap'.

I didn't mean that tiers don't exist, I was saying that predicting who would win solely based on tier lists is invalid and that player skill makes up 99.99% of the outcome.
 

Bulk

Well-Known Member
If a Smash Ball is an item (which it is) and item switch is still included (which is very likely) they can be turned off.

Also, tiers are very important. If you want to be the best at Smash, you have to use a top tier; otherwise you won't win, regardless. Someone who is ace with Shiek will be far better than someone who's ace with Mewtwo, regardless. If the two players are at the same level, the higher tier character will win.

(This is only guaranteed with no items, one-on-one and a flat stage.)
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Are you saying there's no basis to Pichu being considered better as a character?

no. I'm saying that if you are willing to say Pichu has more advantages over Mewtwo than the contrary.

like I said, the tier list doesn't give off the match-ups. let me give you a better example.

Fox is top the #1 ranked character out of everybody. he is only ranked #1 in terms of the word "overall". this does not mean that he has the advantage in every single match-up. this does not mean that he will absolutely maul over Luigi, or Marth, or even Link. this just means that "overall", he has a better "good:bad" ratio and in most match-ups, he doesn't fall flat on his ***.

If you want to be the best at Smash, you have to use a top tier; otherwise you won't win, regardless.

you don't have to use top tier characters to be the absolute best.

I am a proud activist of saying a human's meta-game at its highest is impossible because:

1) it doesn't incorporate mind games. this is the biggest flaw with the tier list.

2) there's ALWAYS room for improvement. I don't care who you are. nobody is perfect with a character and can say they mastered everything.

if you use a low tier character, you can still be a great player; you'll just have to work harder, but this does not make it impossible.
 
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If a Smash Ball is an item (which it is) and item switch is still included (which is very likely) they can be turned off.

Also, tiers are very important. If you want to be the best at Smash, you have to use a top tier; otherwise you won't win, regardless. Someone who is ace with Shiek will be far better than someone who's ace with Mewtwo, regardless. If the two players are at the same level, the higher tier character will win.

(This is only guaranteed with no items, one-on-one and a flat stage.)

It is not guaranteed no matter what. I own everyone I know (and they mostly use Falco and Fox) as Mewtwo. So either all my friends suck, or I rule as Mewtwo. It's got to be one of those. And I think it's the second one.

EDIT: GhostAnime has just said everything I have ever wanted to say about tiers.
 
no. I'm saying that if you are willing to say Pichu has more advantages over Mewtwo than the contrary.

like I said, the tier list doesn't give off the match-ups. let me give you a better example.

Fox is top the #1 ranked character out of everybody. he is only ranked #1 in terms of the word "overall". this does not mean that he has the advantage in every single match-up. this does not mean that he will absolutely maul over Luigi, or Marth, or even Link. this just means that "overall", he has a better "good:bad" ratio and in most match-ups, he doesn't fall flat on his ***.

The tier list indicates match-ups in that the higher characters usually have something that makes them high tier.

Or are you saying that tiers are just random garbage and that a good Falco player doesn't have an advantage against a good Pikachu player?
 

Sakurai

NO NONSENSE, FOOL!
this is where you're wrong.

tiers only matter at the COMPETITIVE level. they do not matter in the casual level.

Not true. I detect that no reasoning was used to create this post.

the only reason Fox is top tier is because of waveshining, shine-spiking, and his shuffl'd aerials. casual players don't typically do this, therefore, their Fox isn't the same Fox as the one ranked on the tier list.

Excuse me? Maybe YOU don't, but don't generalize that thats the way everyone does it. Maybe you arent good enough to use them, and you can't successfully execute them :/

Though the tier list is a ranking for the characters, it has absolutely no say on what happens in a match-up. as far as I'm concerned Sheik and Marth ARE] actually an equal match-up despite either of them being higher than the other. are you honestly willing to also say that Pichu has the advantage over Mewtwo? (yes, Mewtwo is last in the recent tier list).

It depends on the player, for most aspects. And tier lists change. Mewtwo is NOT as mad as Pichu. Im NOT Pro-Mewtwo or Pro-Pichu, but its true.

yes, you can.
no, you can't.

I'm trying to find my source for how to explain the tiers but smashboards won't load. so I'll paste it later. it's not like Franky is going to believe me about this but he'll believe the people who basically created them.

Franky's a jackass. We all know.


Well that was pleasant.
 
The tier list indicates match-ups in that the higher characters usually have something that makes them high tier.

Or are you saying that tiers are just random garbage and that a good Falco player doesn't have an advantage against a good Pikachu player?

Tiers obviously mean something, but they do not ensure that a Falco will always beat a Pikachu, nor do they determine the outcome of every match. Mewtwo can beat Marth. You just have to REALLY know how to use M2 (as I do).
 
Tiers obviously mean something, but they do not ensure that a Falco will always beat a Pikachu, nor do they determine the outcome of every match. Mewtwo can beat Marth. You just have to REALLY know how to use M2 (as I do).

Like I've said dozens of times already, if the two players are equal in skill, then said Falco has the advantage. It doesn't mean that the Falco player is 100% guaranteed to win, but it does mean that it is more likely that the Falco player will win over the Pikachu player, because the Falco player is using the better character.
 
Like I've said dozens of times already, if the two players are equal in skill, then said Falco has the advantage. It doesn't mean that the Falco player is 100% guaranteed to win, but it does mean that it is more likely that the Falco player will win over the Pikachu player, because the Falco player is using the better character.

I know that. Then... Why are we arguing again?
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
The tier list indicates match-ups in that the higher characters usually have something that makes them high tier.

mhm. Fox's top rank is based off of how he can infinite you if you even miss an L-cancel. if Fox is played at his absolute meta-game. it is impossible to beat him. whether you were mauled by shine-spikes, infinites back and forth and finished off with an up-smash (if you slide, that is), or constantly juggled to the point of no return. compared to the other characters, hardly anybody has a reliable way of stopping these three things (there's more but these are the main ones).

he can force you to come since he has blasters an well lest you take too much damage he can just finish you off with one-smash if you refuse to come. even if you're Ness or Zelda who can reflect, they still are forced to approach him because the blaster is just too fast.

these are the things that make him top tier. the things in which if done perfectly, he is impossible to probably KO, but like I said, no human is perfect, and therefore, the tier list is merely an outline of who has the most advantages in the majority of the match-ups.

match-ups are single entities that only mean 1/26 in regards to the tier list. Fox is higher than Marth but Fox vs Marth is relatively equal. Fox is only ranked higher because his advantageous are harder to counter IF played perfectly.

yes, I may sound like I'm repeating myself, but in short, "character match-ups" and "tier list" shouldn't be grouped together.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Fan... I don't feel like responding to every point you just said. all I can say is just educate yourself. please.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
The tier list is a ranking of the characters in SSBM. The tier list is determined by members of the Smash World Forums' Smash Back Room, and changes every now and then. The tier list applies only under tournament conditions and only to the top levels of the Smash community.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=516492&topic=37242284

this is all I can bring to the table in terms of it being at least out of the casual's hands.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749

finally loaded! look for tiers. no more debates after this:

Tiers are a general breakdown of how each character stacks up in comparison to the other characters in the game. The tier list assumes a few things. First and most importantly is that it is based on the current metagame (which is based on the mind-games and technical skill of the top players). Current is the vital point here, it is not based on future potential, but on current potential (as a note here Fox is considered to have the most potential in the game). Second, the tier list assumes those playing are of near equal skill, and that they are both near the top of the technical (human) ability for their given character.

What exactly does all this mean? Essentially under most circumstances the higher tiered character will beat the lower tiered character. It is a simply a list of overall advantages, which characters have more advantages in more match ups than other characters. What it doesn't mean is that Sheik will always destroy Marth simply because she is located 2 spots above Marth on the tier list. The impact of the tier list at the top levels of play is minimal once you move into the High Tier and above. Instead, counter characters begin to play a larger role. This also brings up a large portion of the confusion regarding the tier list because a lower ranked character can be a counter to a character ranked much higher. The easiest example here is the Ice Climbers versus Sheik. While Sheik has more advantages in more match ups, the Ice Climbers are one of the few characters that can chain grab her, and as a result they are her only hard counter.
To get a slightly more in depth look at tiers, largely covering the previous tier list, view this: The Ever Evolving Smash Tiers

for more information: http://www.mlgpro.com/?q=node/44016
 
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Emblematic

Lurking...
Uh, it's evident that in every fighting game there are characters that from are purely better than others. They have stronger attacks, can last longer, have more options, ect.

Yes, it is very player dependent, but tiers are based on a hypothetical situation.

I hardly see what makes them 'crap'.

This is all I thought needed to be said.

But, Ghost, what you said makes as well sense too.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
for the last time, people, that roster is fake.
 

Elementman-Novapoke

Well-Known Member
Joystiq: http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/25/rumorang-the-final-smash-bros-brawl-roster/

A supposed roster.

Really. Play as Baby Bowser, Midna, Riley from Metroid, and Wulf.

Someone get those names. Seriously, they hurt my eye. Who's that guy in the center at the bottom?

That's the same one we've seen, like, a million and a half times now, and have always said that it's fake.
Also, it's Bowser Jr. Not Baby Bowser. They're different.
One's Bowser as a kid; the other is Bowser's Kid.
 
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