The Official American Election 2008 Thread

[BigLutz]

how much is nearly everyone? there are many millions who cant get it.

Yeah and several millions of those are Illegal Immigrants, and those that make enough money to afford it.

In reality ANYBODY can get treatment no matter if they have health care or not, the emergency rooms of border states are packed full of people that are waiting for free health care.

 

[Kyogre35]

"Two months" is sixty days. It doesn't matter how long Palin's been going, she doesn't have "enough" experience, and so McCain is a hypocrite for choosing Palin and is likely pandering to female voters... he certainly appears that way. The fact that he looks like a hypocrite doesn't change, when he bashed Obama's "inexperience" while choosing someone who may be more experienced than Obama, but is also not very experienced overall. Other potential candidates were more experienced then Palin, e.g. Mitt Romney, who was Governor of Massachusetts for four years... and yet, he goes off and chooses a largely unknown woman who has had far less experience. How does this look to the general public:

A. like a well-reasoned campaign intended to defeat the Democratic Party fairly on this "experience" issue, or
B. like a means to pull in the unintelligent voters who vote on decidedly non-political issues, e.g. a person's sex.

I don't know if Palin is "qualified" or not, but her "executive experience" is in Alaska, which is the fourth least-populous state, whose population accounts for .2% of the total U.S. population. I think 500% is a bit much of a scale factor for me to worry about for a person with two years experience. Meanwhile, Mitt Romney was the governor of Massachusetts (which has ten times the population) for twice as long.



Uh, everyone? Trust me, the opinions of America that the world expresses are very important.



So, national health care = communist now? I thought it was just being a decent human being and helping your fellow countrymen. It is arguable that privatizing medical care and not giving it to everyone who needs it is a form of triumphalism in favor of the wealthy. You wouldn't want to seem like a bigot, would you?



Please tell me this is a joke. Fox is not unbiased at all.

P.S. taking all bets as to which side will invoke Godwin's Law first! Will it be the conservative membership or the liberal membership of this board?

I can name other reasons he choose her....

1. Strong conservative to appeal to the base.
2. Well yeah woman I mean that is a reason.
3. Young...for the "If McCain dies" people.
4. Executive experiance

So She has other reason's of being on the ticket.

And Joe Biden is a Senator from the great state of Delaware...oh the 45th rank in Pop. So does that exclude him from the ticket. No?? Then your argument is flaud.

Who gives a stinkin Flapjack about what the people around the world think. WE CARE ABOUT THE WELL BEING OF OUR CITIZENS FIRST!

If the world thought we were pansy's so what? If they thought we were hero's? I don't care. It's nice for them to like us but who cares...done.

And it's not there fault that the COMMENTATERS Bill o' Reily and Shaun Hannity are Conservative. There Hard news people are fair. So don't give me that.

And I know you have to be nice to your neighbors and such but come on National Helath Care won't work it didn't work in Europe so like you said. "Learn" from them.

 

[randomspot555]

Right now nearly everyone can get Health Care, from either work place, or just various other means. National Health Care is a drain, both on the system and on tax dollars.

This is such a vague statement that it can be twisted into almost anything.

The work place is increasingly unreliable, as more and more buisnesses are cutting back benefits, including health care.

"various other means" isn't very specific. Yes, anyone can walk into an ER and be treated for whatever. But that doesn't mean it's the best for the long term health of the patient, or the financial stability of the hospital. And not everyone qualifies for Medicare and Medicaid. That still leaves many others.

Some 45.7 million people went without health insurance in 2007, as compared to 47 million in 2006.

That drop is due to an increase in coverage by government programs, such as Medicaid for the poor and SCHIP for children. The number of people covered by private insurance continues to decrease, from 67.9 percent of Americans in 2006 to 67.5 percent in 2007.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/health/july-dec08/uninsured_08-26.html

And the notion that health care is out there if you really, really want is is absurd:

Unlike an employer-sponsored plan that has to accept everyone at the same price, private plans in most states are underwritten based on age, weight, smoking status and health history. Applicants often have to undergo a medical exam and preexisting conditions can increase premiums or even make it impossible to get coverage in some states, such as California and Florida. In places like New York, New Jersey and Vermont, insurers must offer coverage to every applicant, regardless of age or health status, but that has resulted in exorbitant premiums, which can top $20,000 for a family of four. The high premiums, deductibles and co-payments have kept the number of people with private individual insurance down to around 5 percent, with many individuals and their families unable to afford insurance.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/health/uninsured/howweareinsured.html

Yeah and several millions of those are Illegal Immigrants, and those that make enough money to afford it.

In reality ANYBODY can get treatment no matter if they have health care or not, the emergency rooms of border states are packed full of people that are waiting for free health care.

This claim isn't sourced. I know illegal immigrants are hard to discuss statistics for, but surely you can back up the claim of the uninsured but can actually afford it.

Ignoring the illegals, is there a lack of affordable health insurance?

 

[BigLutz]

"various other means" isn't very specific. Yes, anyone can walk into an ER and be treated for whatever. But that doesn't mean it's the best for the long term health of the patient, or the financial stability of the hospital. And not everyone qualifies for Medicare and Medicaid. That still leaves many others.

Why don't you tell that to those at Parkland in Dallas or various other Hospitals that are packed full of people that use that as their primary basis for Health care. To the point several people are waiting up to 19 hours in the Emergency Room to be seen.

 

[randomspot555]

Why don't you tell that to those at Parkland in Dallas or various other Hospitals that are packed full of people that use that as their primary basis for Health care. To the point several people are waiting up to 19 hours in the Emergency Room to be seen.

...so you're agreeing with me? Because that proves my point. Preventive care, rather than just getting someone stable and bumping them to county, are better for the patient and the hospital.

Poor, however, does not mean unemployed. Nearly 70 percent of the uninsured come from families with at least one full-time worker.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/health/uninsured/whoaretheuninsured.html

 

[Kyogre35]

About Health Care the 47 mill. uninsured include.

1. People in beetween jobs
2. Illigal Immagrants
3. They just choose not to have it because they don't want to pay it. It's there choice.

So come on that's about 3/4 of the people.

Oh and in the debates Obama was going on about how Bush icreased the deficit and such. Which he and CONGRESS did.

But then he turns around and says "I'm giving Health care to everyone" WTF! That would add billions to the deficit!! He is the biggest hippocrit ever.

 

[BigLutz]

Oh and in the debates Obama was going on about how Bush icreased the deficit and such. Which he and CONGRESS did.

See this is what annoys me to no end, and I was screaming at the TV when Obama said it.

Yes Bush was President, Yes Clinton left with a Forecasted Surplus.

But then we had the .Com Bubble Bust
Then we had 9/11
Then we had Afghanistan
Then we had Iraq
Then we had Katrina
Then we had the Housing Bubble Burst

It just goes on and on and on.

Anyway a Obama Economic Advisor is about to get fired, or should get fired.

Austan Goolsbee was trying to defend Refundable Tax Credits to people that live on welfare. He was called out on it by it being called Socialist. Goolsbee snapped and said "Is that socialist? Are you a Muslim?"

 

[The Admiral]

And Joe Biden is a Senator from the great state of Delaware...oh the 45th rank in Pop. So does that exclude him from the ticket. No?? Then your argument is flaud.

He's been a senator for a good thirty years, also. Massive time gap.

And I know you have to be nice to your neighbors and such but come on National Helath Care won't work it didn't work in Europe so like you said. "Learn" from them.

We could likely, if we tried, create a form of national health care that could work. The problem is, this would likely take a large part of our effort since, as you say, these systems aren't doin' too great. As well, how could we prove that such a system is guaranteed to work? It isn't like we'll have any lab rats on this, right?

 

[randomspot555]

About Health Care the 47 mill. uninsured include.

1. People in beetween jobs

That's a fancy way of saying unemployed. Uneployed is unemployed is unemployed.

However, unemployment statistics do not count seasonal workers as unemployed.

2. Illigal Immagrants

Discussed at length. But just because illegals are here, that doesn't mean there aren't millions of Americans without insurance.

3. They just choose not to have it because they don't want to pay it. It's there choice.

Prove it. Try living below the poverty line, and choose health care over paying rent or groceries. In some cases, if these people lost their jobs, they'd qualify for Medicaid and unemployment. But then we'd hear crys of WELFARE QUEEN!!!!

Oh and in the debates Obama was going on about how Bush icreased the deficit and such. Which he and CONGRESS did.

Republicans controlled Congress for 6 of the 8 years. The Democrats didn't earn any brownie points by being just as irresponsible, but the majority of the time, it was on Republican watch.

 

[Kyogre35]

He's been a senator for a good thirty years, also. Massive time gap.

But that wasn't the argument you said. You said and I quote.

"I don't know if Palin is "qualified" or not, but her "executive experience" is in Alaska, which is the fourth least-populous state, whose population accounts for .2% of the total U.S. population."

And then you went on to say two years experiance. In the Governer's chair. I think it's about 6 as mayor. And don't say "But of a town of 6,000." Because like randomspot said a town is a town is a town.

We could likely, if we tried, create a form of national health care that could work. The problem is, this would likely take a large part of our effort since, as you say, these systems aren't doin' too great. As well, how could we prove that such a system is guaranteed to work? It isn't like we'll have any lab rats on this, right?

I still don't like it because well it's Socialism, more Gov handouts. WHAT HAS THE GOV DONE RIGHT EXCEPT THE MILITARY??

That's a fancy way of saying unemployed. Uneployed is unemployed is unemployed.

However, unemployment statistics do not count seasonal workers as unemployed.

No they just got laid off and they're looking for another work place. So they don't have Health Care that there company provides.

Discussed at length. But just because illegals are here, that doesn't mean there aren't millions of Americans without insurance.

Yeah but 7 mill of the 47 mill are Illegal...that's a very fair margin.

Prove it. Try living below the poverty line, and choose health care over paying rent or groceries. In some cases, if these people lost their jobs, they'd qualify for Medicaid and unemployment. But then we'd hear crys of WELFARE QUEEN!!!!

Yeah the people I'm talking about are people that just came out of college and don't want to get health care because it's just an added expense.

Republicans controlled Congress for 6 of the 8 years. The Democrats didn't earn any brownie points by being just as irresponsible, but the majority of the time, it was on Republican watch.

Waht was the deficit after the 8 years? If you can come up with that then okay they did do it. That wasn't the point though. It was both of them.

 

[randomspot555]

Because like randomspot said a town is a town is a town.

Please don't quote me as such, because I never said anything. I just said I wasn't going to be involved in a VERSUS debate on experience.

No they just got laid off and they're looking for another work place. So they don't have Health Care that there company provides.

Laid off=unemployed, not in between jobs. And just because they're "in between jobs" doesn't mean that they should be denied access to affordable health care.

Yeah but 7 mill of the 47 mill are Illegal...that's a very fair margin.

40 MILLION UNINSURED IS STILL A PROBLEM!

Yeah the people I'm talking about are people that just came out of college and don't want to get health care because it's just an added expense.

That isn't proving to me anything. So far, you've gone from "They just don't want to pay it" to "They're out of college and don't want to pay it", both of which have been completely unsubstantiated by facts.

Waht was the deficit after the 8 years? If you can come up with that then okay they did do it. That wasn't the point though. It was both of them.

...it's not deniable that the Republicans have been in power of the Executive and Legislative branch of 6 out of 8 years of the Bush presidency, and I never said the Dems did a bang up job on reeling in the budget when they've controlled Congress.

http://www.adn.com/usbusiness/story/555745.html

The federal budget deficit soared to $454.8 billion in 2008 as a housing collapse and efforts to combat the economic slowdown pushed the tide of government red ink to the highest level in history.

It surpassed the previous record of $413 billion set in 2004.

The Bush administration is projecting that the deficit in the current budget year will rise to $482 billion, but that estimate made in the summer does not include the costs of the rescue program passed by Congress on Oct. 3.

The deficit for 2008 reflected the costs incurred in recent months for a $168 billion economic stimulus program that Congress passed at the beginning of this year in an effort to combat the economic slowdown. Those checks did give the economy a boost in the late spring and early summer. That impact has now faded leading many analysts to project that the current quarter and the first three months of next year will show declines in overall input.

 

[BigLutz]

Laid off=unemployed, not in between jobs. And just because they're "in between jobs" doesn't mean that they should be denied access to affordable health care.

Who is to say that they all do not have access to Health Care? Many people are smart enough to pack money away in case they do get laid off or decide that job is not suitable for them. Yeah crap happens sometime, and the Government needs to find a way to get more health care options out there as well as incredibly cheap clinics. That does not mean we should go down the path of Socialized Health care.

40 MILLION UNINSURED IS STILL A PROBLEM!

And how many of those 40 Million can afford Health Care and choose not to? You already knock 7 to 10 million off from Illegals, how many more are the idiots that believe that they do not need health care?

That isn't proving to me anything. So far, you've gone from "They just don't want to pay it" to "They're out of college and don't want to pay it", both of which have been completely unsubstantiated by facts.

Roughly 8.3 Million people make between 50,000 to 74,999 a year are uninsured.

And 8.74 Million that make 75,000 or more.

Subtract that with 10 Million Illegals and you have about 20 Million Left, about 6% of the Population. Is that worth National Health Care? If you look at the test of National Health Care in Hawaii it is a resounding HELL NO.

To further expand on this point, Dr. David Gratzer in his book “The Cure: How Capitalism Can Save American Health Care says “Many Americans are uninsured by choice,”

“Why the lack of insurance [among people who own homes and computers]? One clue is that 60 percent reported being in excellent health or very good health,” explained Gratzer.

All this coming from the Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2005

...it's not deniable that the Republicans have been in power of the Executive and Legislative branch of 6 out of 8 years of the Bush presidency, and I never said the Dems did a bang up job on reeling in the budget when they've controlled Congress.

With the amount of crap and things that have happened in the past 7 years, it wouldn't matter who was in office, the deficit would have been spent.

 

[Carlisle]

Okay, SO many more countries are more "free" than America. Socialism does not equal non freedom. Maybe once America stops with the "We should illegalize what women do with their bodies" and stop with the anti-gay marriage idiocy, then America can be considered "free." Having universal health care isn't the opposite of freedom, and I actually want it. 47,000,000 people without health care? The Bush Administration just turns the other cheek, as well as on every other issue. Obama is a socialist? I don't care. I rather have a socialist than that witch Sarah Palin, who isn't even qualified to be a governor, to be our president.

 

[BigLutz]

Okay, SO many more countries are more "free" than America. Socialism does not equal non freedom.

That actually depends as if you think higher taxes and limited choices in some things actually equals freedom.

Maybe once America stops with the "We should illegalize what women do with their bodies" and stop with the anti-gay marriage idiocy, then America can be considered "free."

Hey I am totally for that, lets just get it done the right way instead of the *******ized version of bringing about laws that was Roe V Wade. We have Legislators for a reason, lets bring about laws the way they were meant to be.

The Bush Administration just turns the other cheek, as well as on every other issue. Obama is a socialist? I don't care.

Be careful what you wish for, Socialism in many ways can end up destroying a country. Just look at France right now.

I rather have a socialist than that witch Sarah Palin, who isn't even qualified to be a governor, to be our president.

Umm no one said she was going to be President, and last time I checked she wasn't running for President. Besides her qualifications are close to Obama's. Does that mean Obama isn't qualified to be a Governor or be a President?

 

[Atoyont]

I never said I supported Obama, and as a matter of fact I don't.
Nor do I want Socialist health care.

If one of these candidates actually abolishes the law that "encourages" companies to send jobs overseas, that would help the economy right now.

 

[Kyogre35]

Oh Carlisle are you Pro-choice? Just wonderin because that may be a factor. Don't get mad at me just wondering because that is why a lot of woman dislike her.

I'm personally Pro-life. But that's for another day.

 

[BigLutz]

If one of these candidates actually abolishes the law that "encourages" companies to send jobs overseas, that would help the economy right now.

I don't believe there is a law that encourages that, I do know it is a variety of factors, including cheaper jobs over there, and higher taxes. Now if you want to abolish laws like the Minimum Wage and things that will possibly become laws like Obama's Higher Tax Plan on Buisnesses. Then that would really help stop the tide of overseas jobs.

 

[Carlisle]

That actually depends as if you think higher taxes and limited choices in some things actually equals freedom.

I don't mind higher taxes.

Hey I am totally for that, lets just get it done the right way instead of the *******ized version of bringing about laws that was Roe V Wade. We have Legislators for a reason, lets bring about laws the way they were meant to be.

And that would be?

Be careful what you wish for, Socialism in many ways can end up destroying a country. Just look at France right now.

Last I checked, France was just fine. Can you tell me what is happening?

Umm no one said she was going to be President, and last time I checked she wasn't running for President. Besides her qualifications are close to Obama's. Does that mean Obama isn't qualified to be a Governor or be a President?

Nope, not really, I don't think he should be president. It's just one of those "lesser of two evil things" when it comes to it. And since McCain can very well likely die, I don't want her running this. No one would take her seriously.

I am pro-life, but I think it should be legal in most circumstances. I'm not going to go into specifics, however.

 

[Kyogre35]

Oh okay just wonderin. Well I guess you dislike Palin in other ways....oh and I've heard a poll that combined 10 polls together has McCain down 3.7%..I forgot what it was but I think this race is tighter tahn the media wants to bleed out.

Oh France Double Didgit Unemployment and Inflation and all that so it's not pretty and pink there.

 

[BigLutz]

I don't mind higher taxes.

You may not, but when you're parents are having a hard time getting work, or you yourself cannot fight a job then you might. High taxes during a Economic Upturn like the times of Clinton are fine because the amount of wealth in the economy beats out the tax hike. During times like these, higher taxes can be deadly.

And that would be?

Having our laws written and passed by the Congress and the President. Not by the Supreme Court.

Last I checked, France was just fine. Can you tell me what is happening?

Well they tend to have Unemployment anywhere between 8 - 10% in the better areas, and 20 to 30% in Young and Minority areas.

Not to mention they have some incredibly socialist laws in which it's easier for a business to go out of business instead of fire employees. Due to how insanely costly it is to fire some one.