The Official American Election 2008 Thread

[redpanda]

I just love how Obama's tax plan will supposedly decrease unemployment. not to mention the fact that we still dont know who's gonna get a tax cut >250k? >200k?
>150k? whos it gonna be?

Umm, I've heard consistently that people making over $250,000 a year get a tax increase, between $200,000 and $250,000 have no change, and below $200,000 get a tax cut in Obama's tax plan. Personally, this makes perfect sense to me.

I find that the racism associated with this election is disgusting. My stepfather for example starts screaming about how "America cannot have a black guy as president" and it really irritates me. Who cares about his race, he's still a human being right? People are people and the Civil Rights movement was supposed to show this. Also, Obama is not a Muslim! Even if he was, why should this be an issue? If he's a good person, he's a good person no matter his religion or race.

With McCain and Palin, I really don't see anything they could do to improve this country if they were elected. McCain cannot relate to the middle and lower class, he was born rich and does not understand the problems of people less fortunate. It's been said a lot already, but he could not remember the number of houses he owned(which is 7) and thought that you had to make over 5 million dollars a year in order to be rich. I do not see how any of his ideas or policies could be beneficial. I really hope Obama wins today.

 

[BigLutz]

Uh, no, it doesn't. Just because she does not deal with a person of such an important position does not mean she should not know who they are.

And she probably does, being put on the spot to come up with something, even if you know it, can cause a brain freeze. No matter what though she would probably be more knowledgeable about the Canadian officials she dealt with on the Pipeline which did not include a head of state.

To that end, I can't see how anyone can argue that a person who is aiming for an executive office can allowed to be ignorant of the most basic knowledge of a neighboring country.

Because people do lock up some times when placed on the spot to remember something in particular?

Polling overall or just specific polls? If it's the latter, then there's no real ground for the claim. If it's the former, then there are still other factors to take into account (hell, you mention Virginia later in your post) before it can easily be brushed off as the Bradley Effect.

I would say if you took the averages of polls and found that the people from the polled said they would vote for Obama, and then McCain wins the state by say 4 or more, that there is something at play there.

That she didn't want to take a chance or that she didn't believe it was Sarkozky? If're you claiming the second one, that doesn't explain the end of the call, nor other miscellaneous comments by her. (And that's not even considering her staff allowing such a call to begin with, or any of them thinking how this will be perceived by the public.)

I would say she didn't want to take the chance of possibly insulting a head of state who the White House could be dealing with in just a few months. The possible problems that would arise if she were to act rude in any sort of way to Sarkozy would far outweigh the possible risk that it wasn't him.

Also, Palin and her supporters are the ones holding up her foreign experience and knowledge, not us "Biased Liberal Sons-of-*****es."

And knowing a particular position or leader to a country doesn't automatically equate to having or not having Foreign Policy Experience. She does have it, there is no doubt about it, both with problems with Russia over the past two years and the Alaskan Pipe Line. Like it or not those are the facts.

Furthermore, if you're running for executive office (as I mention above), I expect you told hold the most basic of knowledge. Even if she was ignorant prior to being picked as the Republican VP candidate, I would've hoped that she lose that over the past few months.

Soooo let me get this straight, knowing names and positions is more important than her experience with dealing with Canadian Officials, dealing with Russian Military, and everything else? Just want to make sure I am just making sure I get you right before I start laughing.

It makes a lot of sense. Repubs have had control of DC for 6 of 8 years, and still have the Executive and a good chunk of seats in Congress for the last two. The vast majority of everything of the last 8 years happened on Republican watch. Therefore, they get blamed.

You don't have to agree with it for it to make sense.

Yup which is why you guys better expect it if Obama gets elected. The next year or so is going to be hell when it concerns the economy, and people voting blindly for Obama thinking he will fix it and make everything better are going to get a horrible wake up slap. Worse yet Democrats have no one but themselves to blame for the next 4 years. Even if Republicans win in 2010, the President is still seen responsible. Think Bush's poll numbers are low? Wait till people realize Obama isn't some great Greek God that will save them.

 

[Nukada]

This is false. The surplus went away well before the Democrats gained control of Congress in 2006. There is no way to spin it. For six years, the Republican party controlled the Executive and Legislative.

The surplus was going to dissapear no matter what, and the Republicans can't be blamed for the recession that was sped up after 9/11. However, they can be blamed by continuing to cut taxes while increasing spending, especially in the case of the war. Instead of even attempting to pay for the war, we just keep borrowing money and fit it outside of the federal annual budget, and pretend it doesn't exist. Because, well, they were the party in control. I just don't see how someone can look at years 1-6, where the Republicans had control of Congress and POTUS, and then blame everything on the minority party.

It's strange. For the party of Teddy Roosevelt, this post doesn't seem to go with "The Buck Stops Here!". It's more like "Find someone else to blame!"

EDIT: I'd respond to the rest of the hugely misleading post, but academic work takes precedence over the Internet.

Still, the surplus in the Clinton years was due to the conservative congress.

Look it up.

Obama DID say that he would cause energy prices to skyrocket, and would bankrupt coal companies. You cannot argue with that.

EDIT: I have two links for everyone here to see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8 This is the most watched political video of this election.

http://www.eclecticwill.com/2008/10/open-letter-to-sen-obama-from-corey-miller-the-well-driller/ Read this. If you can still support Obama after reading it, and watching the above video, I want to hear what you have to say, so I can see how blindly you follow him.

 

[randomspot555]

Still, the surplus in the Clinton years was due to the conservative congress.

Look it up.

It's not my job to look it up. It's your job to back up what you say.

So far, you've yet to source either of these claims you've made:

The surplus came from the Republican Congress and was entirely their success.

And

The surplus was squandered because of liberals elected to Congress.


I love the logic. Things going well? We'll take the credit and give it to no one else. Things going bad even though we're in power? Blame the other guy.

EDIT: Youtube vid? Pure emotional plee. Sorry, this doesn't actually change anything.

Corey Miller? Not a single source to say that's anything more than a chain e-mail. In fact, the e-mail address it's from at the beginning, and the website at the end of the letter, are two different sites. None of that proves it's real. My search says the original posting is freerepublic. Which is in no way reliable, unless I can start citing Dailykos also.

 

[GrizzlyB]

I find that the racism associated with this election is disgusting.

Me too! How is this not revolting?

I mean, 92% support, for God's sake. There's definitely racism here, make no mistake.

 

[BigLutz]

Technically he is right, but you have to understand that not every Republican elected is Economically Conservative. Bush ran as a Economic Conservative, but turned into a Economic Liberal after 9/11, the same happened to make Republicans from 2000 to 2006. Thus the reason why in 2006 you had so many Conservatives stay home because they believed they were teaching the Republican party a lesson.

As for the Surplus, the idea that it is Bush's fault it was gone wanted me to reach through the TV to strangle Obama. The Surplus was projected, but as said the .Com Bubble killed any chance of that, followed by the Economic hell that was post 9/11, followed by Afghanistan, followed by Iraq. All three of them combined with the recovery from 9/11 made it impossible to raise taxes. After that you had Katrina, and then the Housing Crisis. It was just one thing after the other starting in 2000 that attacked our economy.

 

[Putty]

it's sad that skin pigment is a fundamental ingredient for electing a president. really sad.

even for those voting barack because he's black.

 

[legendary master Jose]

Umm, I've heard consistently that people making over $250,000 a year get a tax increase, between $200,000 and $250,000 have no change, and below $200,000 get a tax cut in Obama's tax plan. Personally, this makes perfect sense to me.

yea but the governer of NM said that it would be anyone under 120k
Joe biden said anyone under 150k
and i've heard of a few others saying under 200k

and how does this make sense

many people who make over 250k own businesses they will then get a tax increase meaning that they will have to either fire employees lower their wages or increase their prices and most will more then likely fire thier employess

for example my father is a Doctor who owns his own practice (while im not an "employee" i do work for him) he has 5 employees before expenses he makes over 250k he has told me that if obama wins and his taxes are increased that he will have to fire 1 of his employees.

while 1 employee may not seem like alot imagine all the other doctors who will have to get rid of an employee then imagine the familys that own thier own restauraunt or grocery store or something like that

 

[redpanda]

Me too! How is this not revolting?

I mean, 92% support, for God's sake. There's definitely racism here, make no mistake.

I mean people who say they can't vote for a black person even if they agree with his policies. As I said, my stepfather is a main example in my life as are some people who work with my parents who are not even considering looking at his policy because his name is similar to Osama.

 

[GrizzlyB]

I mean people who say they can't vote for a black person even if they agree with his policies. As I said, my stepfather is a main example in my life as are some people who work with my parents who are not even considering looking at his policy because his name is similar to Osama.

That is wrong on so so so so so so many levels. Well, actually, just one: that horrible double standard you're pulling. So, it's bad that there are some white people out there who won't vote for Obama because he's black (half, but whatever), but it's all right that there are many black people (and some hispanics, presumably) who will also only be looking at the fact that he is black? You DO realize that the only difference there is which way they vote, right? They're all still racists.

 

[randomspot555]

yea but the governer of NM said that it would be anyone under 120k
Joe biden said anyone under 150k
and i've heard of a few others saying under 200k

Biden and Richardson are not Obama. They mistakenly spoke. I'm sure Palin and Romney have said the wrong number on something McCain is pushing for. Doesn't mean all of a sudden there is a change in McCain's plans. Same for Obama.

many people who make over 250k own businesses they will then get a tax increase meaning that they will have to either fire employees lower their wages or increase their prices and most will more then likely fire thier employess

Did your father have his practice open in 1992-2000? Same taxes then. And I'm pretty sure it means personal income, not business tax. It's also likely how he files for taxes will depend on how much income he's taxed.

Of course, this is assuming that Obama is elected and that his tax plan is passed as-is. The later isn't very likely.

for example my father is a Doctor who owns his own practice (while im not an "employee" i do work for him) he has 5 employees before expenses he makes over 250k he has told me that if obama wins and his taxes are increased that he will have to fire 1 of his employees.

I'm sure your father has thought this through. However, how cost affective would it be to fire an employee and keep his current salary, rather than cutting his own salary (or find some way to make more money, or spend less on other expensies) and keep an employee. Less people to do the same or more work isn't always smart business move, especially in the case of medicine.

I'm guessing your father is some form of family medicine. And I applaud him for going into one of the medical specialties that normal people actually utilize rather than capitalize on dermatology, but taxes are a part of life. His business will be fine if he's taxed at a slightly higher income, and it'll keep patients coming back, thus improving the practice's standing.

He could also just fire you.

 

[redpanda]

That is wrong on so so so so so so many levels. Well, actually, just one: that horrible double standard you're pulling. So, it's bad that there are some white people out there who won't vote for Obama because he's black (half, but whatever), but it's all right that there are many black people (and some hispanics, presumably) who will also only be looking at the fact that he is black? You DO realize that the only difference there is which way they vote, right? They're all still racists.

I understand your view, but I'm basing my opinion off my experiences. I do not have many close friends who are African American so I don't encounter that scenario much. I do not think people should vote on race period, I just have not encountered many people who are voting for Obama because he is black. The same with Palin, people should not vote for her or not vote for her because she is a woman. In any case, I do believe that race/gender should not be an issue but only a candidates policy and capabilities. I'm sorry if I somehow offended you but I am limited in my experiences.

 

[sockyskarmie]

Umm, I've heard consistently that people making over $250,000 a year get a tax increase, between $200,000 and $250,000 have no change, and below $200,000 get a tax cut in Obama's tax plan. Personally, this makes perfect sense to me.

I find that the racism associated with this election is disgusting. My stepfather for example starts screaming about how "America cannot have a black guy as president" and it really irritates me. Who cares about his race, he's still a human being right? People are people and the Civil Rights movement was supposed to show this. Also, Obama is not a Muslim! Even if he was, why should this be an issue? If he's a good person, he's a good person no matter his religion or race.

With McCain and Palin, I really don't see anything they could do to improve this country if they were elected. McCain cannot relate to the middle and lower class, he was born rich and does not understand the problems of people less fortunate. It's been said a lot already, but he could not remember the number of houses he owned(which is 7) and thought that you had to make over 5 million dollars a year in order to be rich. I do not see how any of his ideas or policies could be beneficial. I really hope Obama wins today.

Barack Obama keeps suggesting lower and lower yearly income amounts as he argues. Maybe it's not "official", but last time I heard of it was a sound bite, where Joe Biden said "people making around 60, 70, 80 thousand a year." Who knows if he really will do this, but it is scary to even imply numbers like that.

As for your racism paragraph- yes, it is bad to associate race with the campaigning at all. I believe what you have written is called "playing the race card," where people like yourself act like there is a huge contraversy about how Obama cannot be president because he is like 50% black. Yes, there is definetely still a bit of racism in this country, which is nearly impossible to be extinguished. If your step father is one of those few who still believe "white is better", then I guess you do have a real case of racism.

I think McCain can definetely improve the economy. What Barack Obama wants to do is a step closer to our country becoming a socialist community, meaning more government and less people power. He will raise taxes on the people making $250,000 (at least-could be lower). Who makes this much money? The people who own a big buisness, and had taken a risk in the past to make that buisness successful. If Obama is elected, what will prompt the people to take risks, make lots of money, and employ a whole bunch of people? That is surely what an unemployed person needs: a job, instead of the hard earned money Joe the Plumber made.

Other people may argue that a person is hard working, but their boss doesn't pay them enough. Well, if the tax burden was lightened, the boss could afford to give his/her workers higher salaries. If they don't, all of their workers will leave and the buisness will break down. With Barack, the boss will not be able to offer his workers higher salaries, because he makes 250 thousand bucks and the government is taking all of it, and giving it to his workers. Indirectly, the employees are destroying their own jobs, as they take their boss' money and bankrupting the buisness.

From what I have said- I hope anyone reading it takes it into consideration. But what do I know? I can't even vote, because I am only 14. I just hope america makes the right decision today, considering every loophole of every promise any of the canidates have made.

I'll keep it traditional: God bless America

 

[legendary master Jose]

Biden and Richardson are not Obama. They mistakenly spoke. I'm sure Palin and Romney have said the wrong number on something McCain is pushing for. Doesn't mean all of a sudden there is a change in McCain's plans. Same for Obama.



Did your father have his practice open in 1992-2000? Same taxes then. And I'm pretty sure it means personal income, not business tax. It's also likely how he files for taxes will depend on how much income he's taxed.

Of course, this is assuming that Obama is elected and that his tax plan is passed as-is. The later isn't very likely.



I'm sure your father has thought this through. However, how cost affective would it be to fire an employee and keep his current salary, rather than cutting his own salary (or find some way to make more money, or spend less on other expensies) and keep an employee. Less people to do the same or more work isn't always smart business move, especially in the case of medicine.

I'm guessing your father is some form of family medicine. And I applaud him for going into one of the medical specialties that normal people actually utilize rather than capitalize on dermatology, but taxes are a part of life. His business will be fine if he's taxed at a slightly higher income, and it'll keep patients coming back, thus improving the practice's standing.

He could also just fire you.

1. Yes but atleast they havent been shoved in a closet untill November 5th

2. i dont have the exact history (i could proably go look through our file cabinet and find out) but i believe it was somewhere around 2000 - 2001 when he opened it.

3. well you've got me there but i can point this out GREED and alot of business owners will proably remove employees rather then cut thier own salary (anyone else noticed that now that gas has gone down the price of milk and other things has not?)

4. yes he is a general practitioner.

5. but then what would i do in my free time?

 

[BigLutz]

Biden and Richardson are not Obama. They mistakenly spoke. I'm sure Palin and Romney have said the wrong number on something McCain is pushing for. Doesn't mean all of a sudden there is a change in McCain's plans. Same for Obama.

That could be true although we expect Biden to know more about Obama's positions. Especially since Biden's "We hate Coal" position seems to have come true. And really we have so many people saying that the only way for Obama to pay for these programs would be for him to tax more than the 250,000. So when people hear 120,000 that seems more realistic.

Did your father have his practice open in 1992-2000? Same taxes then. And I'm pretty sure it means personal income, not business tax. It's also likely how he files for taxes will depend on how much income he's taxed.

You're forgetting the economy was much better in 92-00, so any higher taxes was offset by a booming economy. That isn't the case now, which is why those taxes would be insane.

Of course, this is assuming that Obama is elected and that his tax plan is passed as-is. The later isn't very likely.

You're right, with a Vast Majority in the Senate and House, his tax plan will get WORSE.

 

[randomspot555]

1
3. well you've got me there but i can point this out GREED and alot of business owners will proably remove employees rather then cut thier own salary (anyone else noticed that now that gas has gone down the price of milk and other things has not?)

Gas has gone down because during the summer (when people drive more), they put additional chemicals in it to make it cleaner. They take those out in the winter, when people drive less.

You're right that the prices that have been raised aren't likely to go down, but cost of living has gone up. Gas isn't the only reason prices go up.

 

[redpanda]

Barack Obama keeps suggesting lower and lower yearly income amounts as he argues. Maybe it's not "official", but last time I heard of it was a sound bite, where Joe Biden said "people making around 60, 70, 80 thousand a year." Who knows if he really will do this, but it is scary to even imply numbers like that.

As for your racism paragraph- yes, it is bad to associate race with the campaigning at all. I believe what you have written is called "playing the race card," where people like yourself act like there is a huge contraversy about how Obama cannot be president because he is like 50% black. Yes, there is definetely still a bit of racism in this country, which is nearly impossible to be extinguished. If your step father is one of those few who still believe "white is better", then I guess you do have a real case of racism.

I think McCain can definetely improve the economy. What Barack Obama wants to do is a step closer to our country becoming a socialist community, meaning more government and less people power. He will raise taxes on the people making $250,000 (at least-could be lower). Who makes this much money? The people who own a big buisness, and had taken a risk in the past to make that buisness successful. If Obama is elected, what will prompt the people to take risks, make lots of money, and employ a whole bunch of people? That is surely what an unemployed person needs: a job, instead of the hard earned money Joe the Plumber made.

Other people may argue that a person is hard working, but their boss doesn't pay them enough. Well, if the tax burden was lightened, the boss could afford to give his/her workers higher salaries. If they don't, all of their workers will leave and the buisness will break down. With Barack, the boss will not be able to offer his workers higher salaries, because he makes 250 thousand bucks and the government is taking all of it, and giving it to his workers. Indirectly, the employees are destroying their own jobs, as they take their boss' money and bankrupting the buisness.

From what I have said- I hope anyone reading it takes it into consideration. But what do I know? I can't even vote, because I am only 14. I just hope america makes the right decision today, considering every loophole of every promise any of the canidates have made.

I'll keep it traditional: God bless America

Thank you for nicely stating your opinion. ^_^ I can't vote either, I unfortunately missed the deadline by only a month.

I think I've said this, but I am likely a bit biased because I live in a predominately white community and many people I have talked to about the election are racist. And I think the taxes Obama is proposing to raise for some people are income taxes, not any business taxes. Therefore, there is not really a threat to people jobs unless the bosses are paying salaries and the like out of pocket. I may be mistaken though. People who do make over $250,000 a year can afford to pay a bit more in taxes in my opinion, but then I've never made that much. And I'm sorry, but I do not approve of Joe the Plumber. He does not seem to have a good argument to me but that's only my opinion, ignore it if you wish. And no matter how hard working a person is, there are some things you cannot control(identity theft, robbery, ect.) and not everything will go right. Tax money should help people with these sort of situations.

 

[GrizzlyB]

I understand your view, but I'm basing my opinion off my experiences. I do not have many close friends who are African American so I don't encounter that scenario much. I do not think people should vote on race period, I just have not encountered many people who are voting for Obama because he is black. The same with Palin, people should not vote for her or not vote for her because she is a woman. In any case, I do believe that race/gender should not be an issue but only a candidates policy and capabilities. I'm sorry if I somehow offended you but I am limited in my experiences.

You most certainly didn't offend me, and you most certainly are correct in that post. However, as you must surely know, your experiences don't equate at all to what the national standard is. Bringing up drivel such as a stray remark about how your stepdad acts and condemning an entire election to be held to the same standard as he, however, I do have a problem with, particularly when it comes to this Debate forum. Which is precisely why I called you out on it.

 

[redpanda]

You most certainly didn't offend me, and you most certainly are correct in that post. However, as you must surely know, your experiences don't equate at all to what the national standard is. Bringing up drivel such as a stray remark about how your stepdad acts and condemning an entire election to be held to the same standard as he, however, I do have a problem with, particularly when it comes to this Debate forum. Which is precisely why I called you out on it.

Thank you very much then! I'm sorry about that, I have seen quite a bit of racism on both sides so I decided to talk about it but focused on Obama. I'll make sure my claims are more supported by facts than beliefs in the future.

 

[sockyskarmie]

Thank you for nicely stating your opinion. ^_^ I can't vote either, I unfortunately missed the deadline by only a month.

I think I've said this, but I am likely a bit biased because I live in a predominately white community and many people I have talked to about the election are racist. And I think the taxes Obama is proposing to raise for some people are income taxes, not any business taxes. Therefore, there is not really a threat to people jobs unless the bosses are paying salaries and the like out of pocket. I may be mistaken though. People who do make over $250,000 a year can afford to pay a bit more in taxes in my opinion, but then I've never made that much. And I'm sorry, but I do not approve of Joe the Plumber. He does not seem to have a good argument to me but that's only my opinion, ignore it if you wish. And no matter how hard working a person is, there are some things you cannot control(identity theft, robbery, ect.) and not everything will go right. Tax money should help people with these sort of situations.

Thank you.

And I believe income taxes are how much money comes in, so how much a buisnessman makes. I like Joe's arguement because he is proposing that he lives a hard life, in the sense that he works hard for his money and would like to keep what he makes.

sorry, cant argue anymore! Gotta go to tennis