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The Resistance Team

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3.14kachu

2.72pic √(-1)nventor
Usually, I post my crazy gimmick teams in the RMT section, but this isn't one team so much as a new way to build teams. Take this team, for instance:

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It's an average Trick Room team in RU, with decent coverage and a healthy 3 TR users. It doesn't have any awful weaknesses or obvious flaws, and yet it is unique in that every one of the pokemon on the team is resistant to Grass. This means that all of the Grass types in RU with extremely limited coverage (there are a lot: Serperior, Vileplume, Bellossom, Victreebel, Meganium, Cherrim, etc.) will be rendered completely useless against this team. As 90% of teams carry at least one Grass type, this gives this team a notable tactical advantage. Effectively, 9 times out of 10, the foe will be fighting with a team of 5 pokemon, as the 6th will never be able to do a dent when it comes into play.

Resistance Team: a team that opposes one aspect of the competitive metagame so completely that any team that uses that aspect is significantly easier to beat. A true Resistance Team does not compromise any of its synergy to accomplish this.

It's possible to make teams that resist practically any type in this way, the easiest being Water, Electric, Grass, Fire, and Ground, but that's not the only limit of the Resistance Team. You could make it resist hazards by making use of multiple spinners, wage war on weather with both Tyranitar and Hippowdon, or even cripple all of the foe's physical sweepers by having most or all of your team have the Intimidate ability. Here's one that is more or less immune to status:

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It still has decent synergy, and could be an impressive sandstorm team, but in addition, through Substitute, typing, Marvel Scale, Guts, Poison Heal, or RestTalk, each of these pokemon can shrug off any status-inducing attempt. Blissey, Vaporeon, Sableye, and other annoyers in OU are all near-useless against this team.

EDIT: A number of people have commented on the second team's flaws. While this may not be the best example of a Resistance Team's uncompromised synergy, this is not proof that the concept itself does not have merit.

Long story short, I want to know people's opinions on the concept of a Resistance Team. Do you think it could be useful, or even widely used, or is it impossible or impractical to make a team like this without losing some synergy? As the idea transcends tiers or strategies, I hope everyone who reads this thread will have some thoughts about it.
 
lol I tought this was a CRMT and it was about to be filled with spam and minimods "thiz isn't the corr3ct thread lulz r33d tah rulxz man"

I remember that you made a team that had x4 resistance to almost everything, and in some situations it may work, but Resistances Teams will always have a weakness. And if that weakness shows up, (specially in OU) you're pretty much dead. It's almost the same as monotype teams in therms of weaknesses, having a water monotype team makes no fire types (wich you can kill easily) don't show up, and water counters do.
The synergy is an important thing, but there are very little chances of facing a team like, have a lot of grass types attacks.
 

3.14kachu

2.72pic √(-1)nventor
Well, the idea of this is to make the team extremely resistant to one thing while not sacrificing any synergy. I honestly think that I've done that with the 2 example teams I showed. Can you find any terrible weaknesses in either of them?

I think that if you can make a team immune to something without sacrificing anything, it's not just a good trade-off; it's common sense.
 

windsong

WEST SIDE
You can do so but it's basically pointless and leads to you being weak to anything with solid type coverage. For example, the team that you posted is ridiculously weak to Choice Specs Rotom-W -- literally nothing can switch in. Starmie too, since unless that's scarftar, it 2HKOs your entire team between Hydro Pump/TBolt with minimal hazard support.

That's the problem with these teams -- you're looking too much at the type chart and less to what the team is actually weak to. Also these such teams are heavily prediction reliant which usually isn't all that great (say what you like about all good players being able to predict well -- and it is true, to an extent -- but prediction is, when it really boils down to it, guesswork. Thoughtful guesswork, sure, but still guesses).
 
Its just a gimmick. Having some ability to survive against type moves, Pokemon or status is good, but to go as far as complete immunity means you will end up limiting your team's ability to defeat common threats.

For example depending on your sets that team is extremely weak to Reuniclus. It has nothing that can safely switch into Thundurus either. Starmie and Latias can do heavy damage before dying. Skarmory Spikes against half the team, maybe more depending on the sets of TTar and Salamence. Your only Dragon resist is Excadrill, who can only switch in once and is executed by most coverage moves. And no those "annoyers" aren't useless.. they wipe your team out without much effort. You can not break Rain stall without ridiculous hax. Rotom W gives you some trouble assuming its smart enough to switch out of a burned Conkledurr.

You mean a team that counters one aspect so hard its a waste of a moveslot or team space for the opponent to run it right? Like a team of all ice resists or 6 Breloom counters? Well the flaw of this is Ice moves are usually supported by coverage (meaning they will hit you hard anyway). If you run 6 Breloom counters, well for one you run the risk of them not actually using Breloom (or *anything you counter*) but its still not "useless". Against a rain team my Heatran will be pretty weak. But I can still switch in on Ferrothorn a few times and end up saccing it to get a free switch in against their Thundurus or something.

Being extra resistant to top threats is normal, but at some point you don't need "more" coverage against a particular Poke. Just play well.
 

3.14kachu

2.72pic √(-1)nventor
I suppose that both of you are right. Still, I don't believe that a resistance team inherently loses synergy. Maybe the result I gave was weak to some threats, but is that really definitive of this team-building template?

There are some things that you said on which I want to comment:

epic eevee said:
That's the problem with these teams -- you're looking too much at the type chart and less to what the team is actually weak to. Also these such teams are heavily prediction reliant which usually isn't all that great

I only recently started playing on PO, and, as you would have expected, found that many of my ideas work better on paper. I'm still learning to think of the big picture, but I disagree with your second statement. This type of team actually aims to eliminate some of the prediction element by allowing the player to disregard one type of threat. As long as the team synergy stays good and the pokemon on the team are balanced, I can't see this requiring any more prediction than the average team.

Blue Harvest said:
Well the flaw of this is Ice moves are usually supported by coverage (meaning they will hit you hard anyway). If you run 6 Breloom counters, well for one you run the risk of them not actually using Breloom (or *anything you counter*) but its still not "useless". Against a rain team my Heatran will be pretty weak. But I can still switch in on Ferrothorn a few times and end up saccing it to get a free switch in against their Thundurus or something.

You have some valid points here, but your last comment actually proves my point. The goal of this strategy is that any of the opposed type/pokemon/strategy is made absolutely useless (in this case, it would be a rain team without a Ferrothorn). A really effective example of the anti-fire (or whatever) team that you talked about would wall opposing fire types to the extent that they would never get a good switch-in, and would end up being the pokemon sent out at the end after the other 5 have been dispatched. Although both of my example teams attempt this, I don't think either one achieves it to the extent I'm trying to portray (my first one works better; nobody has criticized it yet).

All of the references to my last RMT are telling me that you all view this as a theoretical team that only an expert battler or a moron would use. But this is the polar opposite of that team; it is a team built to require less prediction, eliminate threats and overall be more usable. The challenge of this type of team is to build it, not to battle with it.
 
Agree with blue harvest and epic eevee, and you're right too 3.14kachu, those kind of teams are for fun, building them and playing with it, it's like monotypes or team themes like "monosnake team, mono-bird team etc)
I like the idea of it and I could build a team just for fun, but yeah when you're playing competetively and serious you have to build a real team.
 

Barbeller

Scatter Brained
In the second the only special poke is Milotic... If another Conkeldurr can set up on your T-tar... You are dead. This Physical/Special take over is one you have to be careful about when building these teams, it just slips in...
 

windsong

WEST SIDE
In the second the only special poke is Milotic... If another Conkeldurr can set up on your T-tar... You are dead. This Physical/Special take over is one you have to be careful about when building these teams, it just slips in...

Pretty much everything about those necessary physical / specially based splits being necessary in teams is bs...it really doesn't matter if you're running a ratio of 5:1 physical to special sweepers provided you handle all important threats well enough (for example, conkeldurr isn't too much of an issue, since he has gliscor, who can beat conkeldurr most of the time if he predicts well). It's also important that you can break through important walls, but if you want an example of a team that's all specially based mons and proved incredibly successful, just look up stathakis's "greek rmt" (iirc it's called that) in the smogon rmt archive.

AromaFloraedit: link here => http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53728
 

Barbeller

Scatter Brained
Pretty much everything about those necessary physical / specially based splits being necessary in teams is bs...it really doesn't matter if you're running a ratio of 5:1 physical to special sweepers provided you handle all important threats well enough (for example, conkeldurr isn't too much of an issue, since he has gliscor, who can beat conkeldurr most of the time if he predicts well). It's also important that you can break through important walls, but if you want an example of a team that's all specially based mons and proved incredibly successful, just look up stathakis's "greek rmt" (iirc it's called that) in the smogon rmt archive.

Conkeldurr is very good at setting up on T-tar... And how exactely does gliscor check Conkeldurr? Getting hurt a bit and using protect - allowing for Conkeldurr to set up even more? Then even Milotic would be checked. I do admit I was being a bit over the top with the physical/special as special works better, however I would imagine the correct chansey set and using it properly would have killed it.

EDIT: You can't exactly call that Special... Mixed + Special is the word.
 

windsong

WEST SIDE
Conkeldurr is very good at setting up on T-tar... And how exactely does gliscor check Conkeldurr? Getting hurt a bit and using protect - allowing for Conkeldurr to set up even more? Then even Milotic would be checked. I do admit I was being a bit over the top with the physical/special as special works better, however I would imagine the correct chansey set and using it properly would have killed it.

EDIT: You can't exactly call that Special... Mixed + Special is the word.

Gliscor either leads with Taunt or SD, depending on whether or not he predicts Payback or a second bulk up, then Taunts the second (or the first) turn in order to prevent future bulk ups. Then you alternate between attack + protect while it's taunted until you beat it. You don't always win, and Glis gets damaged pretty badly, but you can beat Conkeldurr.

Clearly you didn't look at the moves on the team I just told you to look at and just looked at Infernape's sprite. The team had approximately two physical moves on it, both of which were Explosion on mons with like, 4 attack investment. The team had no dedicated "mixed sweepers".
 

3.14kachu

2.72pic √(-1)nventor
Well, regardless, I don't think that this type of team is in any way "monotype." It's based off of a shared resistance, not a shared type.

I would also like to point out that disrupting the opponent's team in this manner breaks the opposing team's synergy as well. Take for example Blue Harvest's high-ranking RU team vs. the one I posted above (I just needed a good RU team in this example, nothing personal). Since my team is so resistant to small-movepool Grass types, it will be very difficult for BH's Lilligant to be used. Without Lilligant's resistances, the team becomes overall much more weak to Grass, and after Aerodactyl is out of the picture, the team I posted could much more easily sweep with Exeggutor.

Even if the team I face doesn't have a Grass-type, it doesn't mean that I gain a disadvantage. I merely lose an advantage that is not entirely necessary for the team to win. Think about it: ignoring the team's resistance to Grass, it's still a bulky and synergic Trick Room team.
 

Quagsireking

I am the king!
Ice will probably be a weakness but I'm not entirely sure with t-tar and excadrill. I mean salamence is frail and one hit will bring it down and gliscor will most likely go down from two ice attacks. Something that can and will kill this team is a porygon2 with ice and charge beam. The reason why is because with the charge beam boost and then ice beam your team goes down like a flies.
 

3.14kachu

2.72pic √(-1)nventor
I'm definitely regretting posting the second team example, as I clearly did not give it as much synergy as I had hoped. Can we stop bashing it and discuss the concept itself, please?

I want to see the general response to my previous comment (#12) especially. It's one of the main reasons that this strategy is worthwhile.
 
I would also like to point out that disrupting the opponent's team in this manner breaks the opposing team's synergy as well. Take for example Blue Harvest's high-ranking RU team vs. the one I posted above (I just needed a good RU team in this example, nothing personal). Since that team is so resistant to small-movepool Grass types, it will be very difficult for BH's Lilligant to be used. Without Lilligant's resistances, the team becomes overall much more weak to Grass, and after Aerodactyl is out of the picture, the team I posted could much more easily sweep with Exeggutor.

No, I would just have Linoone use Belly Drum and sweep you. Lilligant isn't useless either. Its going to either sleep something, or lure out Afrobull who Linoone can Belly Drum on, or if it lacks Swords Dance Duggy can Memento and let Aerodactyl or something set up. Not saying you wouldn't win but I would not feel at a disadvantage even with all your grass resists.. I just wouldn't be dumb enough to try a Lilligant sweep against you.


Being resistant to stuff is nice and its pretty viable to have fully resistance to team "types" like Spikes offense, stall or highly influential walls like Skarmory or Ferrothorn but to stress a type immunity is just a waste of energy. You can usually deal with one resistance for rare types like flying and two for common types like fighting and dragon. For example your RU team would beat my Lilligant just as well with AfroBull + 5 water types. The rest of the team is just overkill.
 

3.14kachu

2.72pic √(-1)nventor
Blue Harvest said:
You can usually deal with one resistance for rare types like flying and two for common types like fighting and dragon. For example your RU team would beat my Lilligant just as well with AfroBull + 5 water types. The rest of the team is just overkill.

I'm not too sure about that last part, but I think that, just as a good player can overcome a resistance team and find a use for the resisted pokemon, a good player can use a resistance team well and limit the use of that pokemon. And BH, I honestly did not mean to criticize your team, which in my opinion is pretty solid.

Still, my team is also a Trick Room team, which puts your generally fast team at another huge disadvantage. But that's not really the subject.

My reasoning is, with the team of Bouffalant and 5 water types, you would be able to use Lilligant in the lategame, once Bouffalant was beaten by something else. The goal of a resistance team is that you not be able to use Lilligant at all, and it would become the dead weight on your team.

Now, just to be clear, I don't think my team does this perfectly. You could probably use Lilligant as a switch-in for my Exeggutor's obvious grass attacks, and then switch it out for Dugtrio when Lampent or Muk come into play, trapping and destroying them by stalling until the TR wears off.

Really, the resistance team is a new way to consider battling. There are enough pokemon out there that, with some careful choosing, you can build such a team without compromising any of the synergy you mentioned. I believe that my team has merit simply because, as you said, you "just wouldn't be dumb enough to try a Lilligant sweep against" me. You're Lilligant has been reduced from a powerful Quiver Dance sweeper to a mere switching pawn, and my team did not sacrifice anything to accomplish this. Isn't that a success on my part, then?
 
I'm not too sure about that last part, but I think that, just as a good player can overcome a resistance team and find a use for the resisted pokemon, a good player can use a resistance team well and limit the use of that pokemon. And BH, I honestly did not mean to criticize your team, which in my opinion is pretty solid.

Still, my team is also a Trick Room team, which puts your generally fast team at another huge disadvantage. But that's not really the subject.

My reasoning is, with the team of Bouffalant and 5 water types, you would be able to use Lilligant in the lategame, once Bouffalant was beaten by something else. The goal of a resistance team is that you not be able to use Lilligant at all, and it would become the dead weight on your team.

Now, just to be clear, I don't think my team does this perfectly. You could probably use Lilligant as a switch-in for my Exeggutor's obvious grass attacks, and then switch it out for Dugtrio when Lampent or Muk come into play, trapping and destroying them by stalling until the TR wears off.

Really, the resistance team is a new way to consider battling. There are enough pokemon out there that, with some careful choosing, you can build such a team without compromising any of the synergy you mentioned. I believe that my team has merit simply because, as you said, you "just wouldn't be dumb enough to try a Lilligant sweep against" me. You're Lilligant has been reduced from a powerful Quiver Dance sweeper to a mere switching pawn, and my team did not sacrifice anything to accomplish this. Isn't that a success on my part, then?

My point is just because you nullify Lilligant doesn't mean you win. I'm smart enough to look at the team preview and see how impossible it is for Lilligant to sweep.. I won't even switch it in barring a resist or sacrifice. But I see Linoone 6-0s if it can get a Belly Drum off. I may effectively start the game off 5-0 but its not really a disadvantage any more than it would have been if your only counter was Afro Bull. Yes you weaken Lilligant but that's why I run 6 Pokemon.

My team is pretty bad. I made it mainly to prove how horrible PO players were, that I could get to #1 without losing with 6 random sweepers.. it turns out Smogon was only slightly better.
 

windsong

WEST SIDE
BH, just saying, those types of teams are actually great for laddering -- I've gone from 1000 to 1400 in like an hour using Somalia's team which is basically just Screens Espeon + Random sweepers, and **** like that actually works well for ladder play, for the most part.


(but your team was weak to Yanmega!!!!)
 

3.14kachu

2.72pic √(-1)nventor
epic eevee said:
(but your team was weak to Yanmega!!!!)

I'm not sure if you're talking about my team or Blue Harvest's, but Lampent resists and counters with super-effective fire, Boufalant can take a hit and OHKO with Rock Slide, Muk is defensive enough, and besides, it's a Trick Room team. All of my pokemon outspeed Yanmega, and I have no shortage of switch-ins.

Blue Harvest said:
My team is pretty bad. I made it mainly to prove how horrible PO players were, that I could get to #1 without losing with 6 random sweepers.. it turns out Smogon was only slightly better.

Aw man... I was hoping that RU would give me some serious competition. To be honest, I haven't found too many people willing to battle in RU on PO.
 
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