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The Semi-Final Frontier! (657)

Discussion in 'Pokémon - Diamond & Pearl: Sinnoh League Victors' started by Serebii, Aug 26, 2010.

  1. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    I wished Ash picked different Pokemon. He should have went full Hoenn team, instead of using Heracross and Gible again (even if they were good picks, they already got battles at the League). And I can't forgive how Swellow got shafted; it's as if the writers didn't watch AG.

    Great battle that made Ash look impressive, although it wasn't perfect.
     
  2. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    I still think it's cheating

    Well first of all we don't know anything about Tobais or how he happened to catch 2 legendary Pokémon. He comes out of no where with no backstory and no real reason to be there. He was a character designed to beat Ash and nothing more. With Cameron, and every other rival Ash has lost to there has been a large amount of character development and there was a bond between them. Ash seemed to regard Cameron as a kindred spirt and Cameron embodied a lot of what the Anime stands for - that is friendship and kindness. He won because he had a strong bond with Riolu and Riolu evolved to make Cameron proud of him. Cameron did not make Ash look terrible. They both battled their best and Cameron happened to come out the winner - thats just the way things are sometimes. At least Cameron earned that victory whereas Tobais just pulls out his Uber Pokémon and crushes Ash's hopes and dreams without batting an eyelid. Also Ash did not take down two legendary Pokémon. Latios was a double KO.

    And while it's not unreasonable Ash loose to a trainer he's never met before, why did have to be a totally over powered trainer with legendaries. Tobais was always going to win. We knew it going in. Even if Ash were the strongest in the Sinnoh league it was still unfair he got whipped out by a legendary user. Tobias showed connection or bond with his Pokemon. He didn't say anything nice to Latios whereas Cameron was happily spinning Lucario round and round. It was cute. Tobias just look like he was using them as battle slaves. He gave off a harsh and cold demeanour. When you saw him taking the cup it felt like the wrong person had won. When Virgil won in Unova you had a good feeling. Sort of if Ash didn't win at least someone who deserved it did.


    I don't see the fact that Ash obtained a higher ranking in Sinnoh than Unova as a good enough excuse to have a go at Cameron. Ash was just lucky that he didn't have to face Tobais until that point in the competition. If he had had the misfortune to meet him in the preliminary rounds it would have been all over red rover before the match even started. I agree a better way to have done Unova would have been to have Ash face and loose to Cameron in the Semi finals or finals (and possibly have Cameron win the league) and have Ash defeat Virgil in the Quarter finals (which I think he could have done with his Unova team). I don't actually think Ash was any better in Sinnoh than Unova. His Pokémon were relatively high powered and able to pull off some impressive feats. I think it's perfectly plausible that Snivy could have defeated Darkrai. She as strong as Sceptile or at least has the potential to be.

    As for cheating. Yes he was not stopped from entering the league with the two legendary Pokémon but I have to wonder what the writers were thinking when they created a character who uses legendary Pokémon. To me using legendary Pokémon in a regional championship (in which all the other Pokémon are not legendary) would be like Ian Thorpe entering the Weet-bix Triathlon and blood doping to improve his performance. Given it's rare in the games for someone to use legendary Pokémon and even the champion does not it's almost a little insulting to fans of Ash and Pikachu to see a bloke with 2 bloody legendaries come in and mop the floor with the entire tournament and destroy everyones hard work effortlessly. Ash worked so hard to be in the league he did not deserve to get owed by some unknown bloke with legendary Pokémon. The legendary or legendaries that the player obtains are always linked to the story line or are caught as event Pokémon post game. For goodness sake, not even the elite four or Cynthia use legendary Pokémon and they are the strongest trainers in Sinnoh.

    Yes, Brandon did use the reggi trio but Brandon is a special case. First of all he is identified as a very strong trainer who only the best take on. This is true in the games as well - you have to defeat the battle frontier to battle him. Secondly Brandon received some character development and aside from his tough guy act it was clear he had compassion for his Pokémon. Thirdly Brandon uses other Pokémon not just three legendaries and he was not competition in a competition that seemed like it was mostly for children. Finally Brandon was an archeologist so it's not hard to see how he obtained them. With Tobias it is never explained and I personally believe it could have been fraudulent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  3. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    Say hello to Ritchie, Harrison, Tyson and Cameron. Only difference was that the writers decided to forgo the usual buddy buddy route that they did with the aforementioned four. Cameron didn't make Ash look bad? Snivy, Oshawott, and Unfezant were made into cannon fodder and Ash lost to a guy who didn't even bring 6 Pokemon and thought you needed 7 badges to enter the League. It wasn't even as if he was treated as a genius savant, he was just an idiot period. There is a reason Ash vs. Cameron is almost universally referred to as the worst League battle in the anime's tenure. Cameron earned that victory? And Tobias didn't? You're right Tobias should just have coddled Ash's hands and weakened hmself and his team to make it a fairer fight amirite? F that. Ash's fault his Pokemon weren't on Tobias's level. Tobias isn't meant to care about Ash's dreams and aspirations. Its a competition. He's there to win. Not as if Ash didn't do the same to all the opponents he baet or Cameron to Ash when he beat him.

    What Tobias was supposed to sweet talk Latios during the battle? Its a battle. Big shock he's focused more in battling at the time than "showing connection or bond." Being more focused on the battle makes his Pokemon battle slaves then. Ok. Great conclusion from the nonexistent evidence.
    If you're really comparing a loss to a possible Elite 4 tier opponent who destroyed an entire region to a loss to a guy who can't even figure out the Unova League is suppossed to take place in Unova then I'll be here laughing.

    Ash in Unova was a blatant regression from his DP, hell from his BF and AG days. Ash didn't have the misfortune. So what? Fact remains he still obtained his highest rank to date in a Pokemon League competition in Sinnoh and regressed from that Top 4 rank in Unova. And Snivy, the same Snivy that was treated as a punching bag for most of the BW series, the same Snivy that has the 2nd worst W/L ratio out of all of Ash's Pokemon, would have beaten Darkrai? Please.

    Sucks for Ash and everyone in the League then. There's nothing stopping them from going out to catch and train Legendary Pokemon of their own now is there? No. Then good on Tobias for deciding that is the best path to victory and going and completing the arduous task of obtaining said Legendary Pokemon.
    The E4 and Cynthia don't use Legendaries? So what. There is not a said defined path to becoming the strongest now is there. And this is not even touching upon how strong Tobias's Pokemon would have to be to even stand a chance when he went to capture said Legendaries in the first place. The conventional route to facing the E4 is through the League. Ergo he wants to beat the E4 and challenge Cynthia for her spot. So yes he's going to bring his OP team through the League to win it and gain acess to battling the E4 and possibly Cynthia.
    The blood doping example holds no merit since it is not cheating to start with no matter how much you try to claim it is.
     
  4. I personally didn't care for Swellow and Torkoal being destroyed so quickly (Swellow because it can do much better, and Torkoal because it loses a lot) but that's forgivable for obvious reasons. It was a good episode and the Pikachu vs. Latios was really enjoyable.

    ---

    But just because the episode was enjoyable, doesn't mean the episode should have happened. There are some aspects that were really bad. Firstly the writing was kind of lazy. How much sense does it make that someone could use one Pokemon to sweep through a competition designed to find a champion? If his only competition is so much weaker than he is, then how did he get that strong in the first place? You could argue that instead of making Ash look good, Tobias made every Sinnoh gym and every competitor in the Pokemon League look awful.

    This episode also really made it clear that Ash was never going to win a Pokemon League, and the fact that the main character will never succeed is not something you want to convince your viewers.

    One other problem I had was that Pikachu and Latios looked dead when the battle finished. I don't think the Pokemon should have to battle until they look like they're about to die. Battles can still be enjoyable without the overly brutal scenes. >_>
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2015
  5. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    I still think the comparison is apt

    Better loosing to a person with 5 Pokémon than a bloke with just 2. It was more humiliating that Ash lost to legendaries than to Cameron by far. Also I'm not denying that Ash vs Cameron is not disappointing in many ways but better loosing to Cameron than to an totally Over Powered trainer without any backstory. That really is taking the Pi**. My comment was that I'm surprised people are more upset with Ash v Cameron than Ash v Tobias. I have expressed misgivings about Ash v Cameron but it was no where near as unfair as Ash v Tobias and I don't the hatred directed at Cameron is fair given the circumstance. To some extent Cameron is probably a better trainer than Ash as he was shown to have a strong diverse team and a good strategy for the most part. He even had a Hyrdriegon which was at least as strong as Ash's Charizard and knocked out Oshawott and Boldore the same way Darkrai did. Some of it came down to luck but thats jus the way things are sometimes. Tobias on the other hand didn't even need to try. He had the victory handed to him on a platter before the league had even begun thanks to Darkrai. I'm not suggesting Tobias care about Ash in that way or weaken himself. What would have been nice is a fair match up like every other battle in the league so far. I mean Tobias must have realised his victory was assured from the very start. Everyone else goes it knowing the next battle could be their last as did everyone Ash lost to previously. The whole stadium knew Tobias was going to win and at one point Ash looked like he was seriously considering a forfeit. Brock even suggested Ash should do just that.

    I did not suggest Tobias was supposed to sweet talk Latios. A look of concern, some friendly encouragement, something that made him look human would have been nice. All we got was the cold and almost arrogant demeanour from a long haired pillock. All I was asking for is that he stroked Latios's head and thanked him the way Ash did Pikachu. The fact he shows no emotion or concern even when his faithful Darkrai was knocked out is what I base my comment about battle slaves on. That is all. And at least Cameron has an interesting personality. The fact he was a bit quirky and forgetful was funny and made people smile. Tobias did nothing but look coldy at the battle and terrify anyone who dare approach him.

    And I am comparing The Tobias and Cameron battles in that it's odd people are happy with Ash loosing to a bloke with two Pokemon but not one with five and that Ash lost to a character only writen to win. A Tobias is is a symbol Ash will never win a league. Furthermore if he is a cheater then he is hardly elite four material.

    Snivy was not shown to be a weak Pokémon. She was strong enough to take out Trip's Servine on one occasion, She beat Clay's Palpitoad without taking a single hit and she one of Ash's most used Pokémon in the series. Her win loss ratio is not that much worse than sceptics. Also sceptile has the same win loss ratio as Oshawott. Maybe Oshy could have beaten Darkrai. Furthermore Pignite has a better win loss ratio than Sceptile and given the type advantage could possibly have taken out Darkrai.

    http://www.screwattack.com/news/complete-battle-stats-ash-ketchums-pokémon

    Just because Ash finished one step behind in Unova than he did in Sinnoh does not make it a regression. He's not going to do brilliantly all the time and it's more realistic to see him do slightly worse the next time round. Can anyone involved in any form of high level competition honestly say they have constantly improved without any exception. The main thing to do is to learn from your mistakes and try to improve for next time. Not an unreasonable point for the anime to make given it is a children's show. His Pokémon are not any better or worse in terms of their achievements in Unova than they have been in any other region and nobody seems to have consider that the level of competition in Unova, with the exception of Tobias may have been much higher than in Sinnoh, evidence by the fact that Ash finished a run lower there than he did in Sinnoh. Cameron is probably a better trainer than Paul given he has a team of six fully evolved Pokémon and he is show to treat them with kindness and respect, where as Paul did not and relied on strength and cruelty.

    You suggest that Tobias caught the legendary Pokémon himself. There is no evidence to support that as we don't know anything about Tobias other than he has Darkrai and Latios. For all we know he's a rich kid who hired Pokémon Hunter J to track down and capture them for him. Given she is the only person in the show to capture legendaries other than Brandon it's not a unlikely scenario. As for other competitors capturing legendaries - the anime on some occasions has suggested that you aren't meant to. In the movie Pokémon 2000 the plot revolves around the fact that Lawrence III's attempts to capture the 3 birds causes an imbalance to the forces of nature and puts the world at risk. When Team Rocket tries to capture Landerous, Thunderous and Tornadus on Milos Island it causes destruction to the entire island. In the Chronicles series, the Legend of Thunder Eugene explains that trying to capture of tame Raikou would hurt it. Furthermore Team Rocket's attempt to capture Cresselia in Sleepless in Pre-battle it's seen as a bad thing even though said Cresselia was wild. As Cresselia is part of the lunar duo with Darkrai it doesn't seem any more reasonable that Tobias should have Darkrai than Jessie, James and Meowth should have Cresselia. When Team's Aqua and Magma tried to control Groudon and Kyogre it was a disaster. Why is Tobias any better for having Darkrai.

    The comparison I am making is that it is odd that fans will hate on Cameron for winning with 5 Pokémon when Tobias did the same thing with 2. The inclusion of Tobias was completely unfair and I do consider the use of legendaries in this context cheating for the reasons I have explained.
    ;380;;380;;380;
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  6. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    People seem to put a lot of emphasis on how much of a feat this was. Yes it was impressive on the part of Ash but he still lost to a trainer with only two Pokèmon. And yet everyone hates it when he looses to a trainer with five. Although Ash fought the good fight it was still a horrible loss and totally unfair a trainer with Uber Pokémon was allowed to compete
     
  7. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    2 Legendaries>5 Pokemon (3 of which were essentially sacrifice (Samuwott and Swanna vs. Pikachu? Really. Ferrothorn vs. Pignite? A piss take in its own right)). This Uber stuff you keep talking about doesn't exist in the anime so stop trying to bring Smogon tiers into this.
     
  8. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    In Ash's battle with Tobias Heracross, Torkoal, Gible and Swellow were also essentially sacrifice. Even more so than Samuwott and Swanna given that Heracross and Torkoal went down with 1 hit despite Heracross's type advantage. It wasn't that impressive. The only interesting parts of the battle where Sceptile vs Darkrai, which was over quite quickly, and Pikachu vs Latios at which point the battle had already been decided anyway. And even at that Sceptile wasn't that interesting. He gets hit by dark void, wakes up and manages to knock out Darkrai. Against expectations granted but more sheer luck than anything. Ash probably should have forfeited and saved Pikachu the effort (and Brock did speculate whether he should do just that). Even if the Smogon tiers aren't cannon in the anime the fact remains that a trainer enters the league with 2 or more legendaries with no backstory and no explanation as to how he obtained them. If that isn't a massive piss take then I don't know what is. It would have been better if we had a) found out a little bit more about Tobias's past and b) got to see more Pokémon. Every other time a trainer uses legendary Pokémon more explanation is given. Bradon is an archeologist who studies myths and legends so it's easy to see how he obtained the reggi trio. Nolan from Battle Frontier is stated to have befriended articuno and it seemed that Articuno just fought for him as a friend rather than having been captured. Tobias is a minor character who comes out of nowhere and will most likely never appear again. Now that is taking the piss.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
  9. Shneak

    Shneak this is a Nessa x Sonia stan account ✨

    This episode has some great dialogue that I caught on a rewatch.

    Jessie: Is it me or is Darkrai strong?
    James: What a keen grasp of the obvious.

    Also Tobias taunted Ash so hard. When he revealed Latios he said "To think I'm using my 2nd Pokemon here in this Pokeball!" The emphasis on Pokeball was heavy. Having a Latios is no big deal. Catching it in a Pokeball? You're done Ash.
     
  10. raichu27

    raichu27 Well-Known Member

    That was a good episode. I think Ash should've used his Charizard, Infernape, or something instead of Torkoal. Plus, I think Ash should've gotten an award for being the first one to defeat Tobias' Darkrai.

    I wonder what the last guy's other Pokemon were besides Magmortar?
     
  11. Lorde

    Lorde Banned

    It's not as if a different Pokemon would've made any difference though: Tobias would've defeated whichever Pokemon Ash used regardless. Ash simply needed to lose. :/
     
  12. ShinyCharyZard

    ShinyCharyZard Honesty=Infractions

    I'm not one of the people who completely despised this battle, in fact I quite liked it, but I do think there could've been some fair changes to make it a bit more worthwhile for Ash's team.

    Firstly, I'd have had Heracross struggle back up from the Dream Eater and get recalled, before sending out Torkoal to get its loss (albeit not so quickly). Then Gible wouldn't have come out, it would've gone straight to Sceptile for the defeat, before Tobias sent out, let's say a Cloyster, to Ice Beam the gecko into oblivion.. Then Heracross would've come back out and Focus Punched the crap out of Cloyster before being defeated by the Lucario that I think almost everyone had predicted Tobias to have at one point or another.. Lucario would've destroyed Heracross, then gone up against Swellow, who would deal a butt ton of damage before being recalled after a hard hit, allowing Gible to swoop in and take the victory. Gible would then take on the next opponent, getting hit hard, but evolving and winning as a Gabite. It would then get quickly defeated by Latios, followed by Swellow, before Pikachu came out and tied. This means that Tobias would've of course won without using a sixth, still using both Legendaries but having some other Pokemon in between.

    Not everyone's cup of tea, but it would've at least fleshed out the battle a bit and put Ash's first dragon type on a pedestal.. but ah well, like I said, I enjoyed it anyway.
     
  13. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    Not bad. I quite liked this battle too though if I had to rewrite it I'd go for
    Heracross v. Darkrai: Darkrai
    Torkoal v. Darkrai: Darkrai though Torkoal does more damage
    Gible v. Darkrai: Gible Recalled after Ice Beam
    Sceptile v. Darkrai: Sceptile
    Sceptile v. Emboar (Show off the Unova strters): Emboar
    Swellow v. Emboar: Swellow
    Swellow v. Lucario: Lucario
    Gible v. Lucario: Gible Evolves
    Gabite v. Lucario: Gabite
    Gabite v. Latios: Latios
    Pikachu v. Latios: Draw

    Ash with a more respectable 6-4 loss. Tobias' team gets fleshed out more so the complaints of Legend hax get shut up. And Gible gets some more focus while Sceptile and Pikachu still get their BAMF moments.
     
  14. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    I would have liked to see:

    Darkrai vs Heracross: Darkrai
    Darkrai vs Gible: Darkrai
    Darkrai vs Sceptile: Sceptile (extended fight)
    Lucario vs Sceptile: Lucario
    Lucario vs Glalie: Draw
    Latios vs Swellow: Latios (extended fight)
    Latios vs Pikachu: Draw

    This would have been possible in the scope of one episode.

    Darkrai defeats Heracross and Gible the way he does in the show (tanking a couple of hits but restoring himself with Dream Eaters), before falling to Sceptile in a tougher fight. Sceptile falls to Lucario easily afterwards. Glalie and Lucario battle to a double KO. Swellow duels Latios in a longer aerial dogfight before finally falling, leading the way for Pikachu to draw. Sceptile earns a win. Pikachu and Glalie draw. Swellow has a strong showing, and Gible and Heracross fought admirably as they did in the actual episode.

    Ash substitutes Torkoal for Glalie, resulting in a team comprising of 2 tier-1s (Pik, Scep), 3 tier-2s (Gla, Swel, Hera), and 1 high tier-3 and trump card (Gib).
     
  15. jrizza88

    jrizza88 Meteorite

    [this battle was pretty epic. It sucks though that it was essentially a 6 vs 2.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  16. Tabasco Boshi

    Tabasco Boshi ★★★★★

    It's an epic battle, no doubt, but every time I watch it I feel really sad. It's like it was the only way to make Ash lose.
     
  17. JudySpell

    JudySpell Banned

    I wish Ash had used Glalie or Bayleef in place of Gible here but I know it wouldn't have changed anything. I wish Ash had made Top 2 though. 6/10
     
  18. Mrs. Oreo

    Mrs. Oreo Banned

    Hmmm well Tobias was essentially invincible here which makes me wonder why he even bothered challenging the league since he seemed so above it. I liked how Pikachu tied with Latios however since at least this way Ash took down two pokemon and lost with dignity. :3
     
  19. Irwin02

    Irwin02 New Member

    The writers should have made Ash enter the finals only to lose to Tobias since they were going to make the trainer Tobias was going to face in the final lose without even taking out 1 of his pokemon.Overall good job for Ash taking out Darkrai but the writers could have done better.
     
  20. Gillachu

    Gillachu Banned

    But if that had happened, they would've had to skip a whole round...
     

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