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The Semifinals III: Valor (1213)

Sham

The Guardian of War
I personally don't think that the issue was that those gimmicks didn't exist in-universe; yes in the real word they weren't conceptualized yet, but in the world of the anime I think that they already used knew about them and used them, just that we didn't see them.

We just never really saw Cynthia battle opponents strong enough to pin her to rely on ME or D-Max.

I think that Cynthia chose not to use ME against Iris for tactical reasons. ME, while being powerhouse, is probably risky as it maybe drains the Pokémon of their stamina and should maybe only be used as a last resort.

As for D-Max, well as the expression goes, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

In other words, they are sort of double-edged swords.

This is just my speculation of course!
I agree with this. Maybe it’s bias but overall the respect thing never made a lick of sense to me. I’m sorry I don’t care how much I like a person I’m not revealing my secret weapon to other opponents who can use it against me (Leon/Ash). And I’m glad that we never actually got confirmation of this and it’s mostly head canon because that’s embarrassing if Cynthia were to do that just because. That’s not respect that’s flexing
 
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Rune Knight

Well-Known Member
I agree with this. Maybe it’s bias but overall the respect thing never made a lick of sense to me. I’m sorry I don’t care how much I like a person I’m not revealing my secret weapon to other opponents who can use it against me (Leon/Ash). And I’m glad that you we never actually got confirmation and it’s mostly head canon but that’s embarrassing if Cynthia were do that just because. That’s not respect that’s flexing

That's a good point too! Cynthia using her gimmick against Iris would've just revealed it to the world, and there'd be no point since she ended up beating her without it. It's preservation, but it's also not a means of disrespect.
 

doofinc

get rillaboomed
I don't agree. Cynthia was just as strategic as ever. Natural Cure for Roserade, then using Poison Jab to ensure Dracovish will faint anyways; Garchomp using Stealth Rock; Milotic using the same tactic on Dracovish that it did on Dragonite; Togekiss used as a Dynamax Pokemon rather than Mega-Garchomp.

It's consistent to how she played in Part I. The only difference is that Ash is getting the hang of battling Cynthia and his Pokemon are determined enough to see it through.
  • Natural cure counts but that kinda tied more into last episode's strat than this episodes IMO.
  • I don't give too many points to poison jab since that strat boils down to "get the poison or not".
  • Stealth rock was alright to disincentivize Ash from switching, but she did it pretty late when Ash only had 3 left. (and lowkey he tried to switch anyways but I'm not docking points on Cynthia's side for that here)
  • Milotic wrap strat to stall poison damage was good. No complaints
  • We haven't seen if DMax Togekiss was a good idea yet.

I feel like Cynthia's gameplan to shut down Pikachu last episode was better than most of this. Plus her spiritomb play overall was pretty good there.
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
I agree, I still think going Mega Garchomp from the start would have been the best move honestly because that would have allowed her to take care of Dracovish and Sirfetch'd far more easily, resulting in it taking even less damage. I think Cynthia was overconfident and was underestimating the resolve Ash's Pokemon had. She probably intended Roserade to defeat Dracovish after the opening blows from Garchomp, and then full health Milotic would have been way more competitive against Sirfetch'd, either winning or crippling it enough that Garchomp could easily come in for the one. It obviously didn't play out like that though.

As for why Cynthia did what she did, it was either planned from the start or it was a heat of the moment thing. I think Lucario countering Air Slash was actually what promted that because she realised her Togekiss couldn't do much to it, and Garchomp was weak enough that even Mega Garchomp could lose to a nearly full strength Mega Lucario. By Dmaxing Togekiss, she could actually deal some damage and take hits, enough that Base Lucario could clean up the remainder. In retrospect, this will probably be a bad decision but she hasn't been put into a corner for a long time unlike Ash who's been up against it for most of his recent battles.



I don't know about that, she's a smart trainer who would absolutely use every method at hand to win, like sleep, Destiny Bond etc. The element of surprise is handy, yes, but she basically had no knowledge of who she would face back then. I doubt she used it then without intending to do so again.

About the respect part, I guess it differs for different people. I understand where you're coming from but that would probably go for, say, a regular trainer battling her where she would hold back knowingly, as Diantha did at first against Greninja. Iris however is a regional Champion and an equal to Cynthia, I feel personally that Cynthia taking her seriously and not holding back at all was a sign of acknowledgement, especially using a Mega Stone no one had seen before. Iris would probably have felt insulted if she were to find out that Cynthia held back against her, or like Leon Gmaxing Rillaboom just for the heck of it to entertain the crowd. Perhaps that's just me though, but while I would definitely prefer an NBA level player to go easy on me, I'd be insulted if someone around my skill level or slightly better did that to me.



I was a bit confused by the plot device part but yeah, it was definitely meant to hype people up while also showing that Cynthia wasn't playing around. It's as I said previously, I just feel like Iris would feel worse if she finds out Cynthia had a gimmick but didn't use it against her, instead using it against Ash. Iris has clearly worked hard to get to this point so I don't think it's insulting in the slightest to have one of the strongest Champions go all-out against you. Or if Iris doesn't, perhaps Cynthia atleast feels that way because her intention was never to clown on Iris.

Regardless, you're right that there's no right answer or opinion, we all have our tastes and dislikes so that's just how it is, I won't want to force my perspective on someone else either.



I think of Cynthia as a trainer who probably plans for each eventuality beforehand, it would be very poor to just pick one strategy when you don't even know what Pokémon your opponent uses. Against Iris, there were only 3 Pokémon so she likely always intended to Mega evolve Garchomp if needed for the power boost. Against Ash, she had 6 Pokémon and could afford to be a lot more flexible. She doesn't seem to have the overwhelming (read: ridiculous) strength that Leon's Pokémon seem to have, like that Rillaboom sweep, rather she relies a lot more on the tactical side of the game. Mega Garchomp was probably always a consideration but she ultimately decided what she thought was best in that situation.

But yeah, that's from Cynthia’s pov. From the writer's pov, who knows if they had already planned Ash vs Cynthia when they were writing this battle. Regardless, Mega Garchomp is such a significant thing that they definitely intended to feature it in atleast one match, seeing as it takes Garchomp’s power to new levels. I won't really say they lied because we've seen Ash vary his gimmicks, it's only fair that Cynthia does too I suppose and I'd rather have this sort of surprise than a "surprise" like some of the shoddy battles we've had this season. The writing for this one has just been so much better comparatively, especially after the damper that was Leon vs Diantha.

Also yes, I don't really see Garchomp returning for a while, if at all, so the same goes for Mega Garchomp too obviously. Maybe the Unova remakes might make Cynthia relevant again!

The Diantha thing is entirely just something I said haha, would be nice if it were true though!

And lastly, once again, while I understand the respect thing from where I'm coming, it's fine for you to keep your opinion because as I said, there's no right answer! One man's meat is another man's poison so I can see how it might look insulting from your pov and is a view probably shared by many others. I'll just add again that I don't think that this fight particularly had anything to do with her not using Mega Garchomp against Ash, I suppose we'll know next episode whether she had preplanned this or if it seemed like the best choice at the time.

Sorry for the walls of text haha, hope you have a nice day :)
No need to worry. I understand what you’re saying. And I also know you didn’t mean that in a offensive tone or to downgrade Iris. And obviously it differs between people. Maybe that’s me just being negative and not understanding intent all that well but that would definitely make me feel frustrated if I had no chance to win something and it was rubbed in my face.

I can understand how not hold holding back is also disrespectful because it’s showing you’re not taking them seriously. Obviously you’re not like that but I guess depending on the intentions like you said it makes a difference

Oh sorry when I said “lie” I meant that there was actually magizines heavily implying she’s use a gimmick on Garchomp and to “watch out” it came off as click baity.

I took it was an open ending as in “we don’t know what would happened if Garchomp didn’t that” especially since they crippled Iris without a gimmick in the first place.

Nonetheless, first of all I think most of this has to do with last minute PLA promotion and using Volo’s ace so Togekiss very well might put in some work and like you said Cynthia might have been intentionally waiting for this.


Okay gotcha, I was leaning towards being over confident with Ash or just simply making a dumb mistake but your resolve makes much more sense. Nonetheless I would say that Mega Lucario is on the same footing as base Garchomp since he’s fighting Dynamax Togekiss and who’s using a gimmick. It’s makes sense.


And don’t worry I appreciate your “wall” of text. It shows how passionate you are.

I was just playing Arceus while I was speaking to you so I sparked noted what you said but I completely got what you were saying and read both of them.

I do get the Togekiss thing might have planned like you said because she most likely was hoping Ash would expect mega evolution and you kinda see that when she has that smirk on her face.

You have my thanks for the conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to write all of this and present your passion and thoughts
 
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Mistycallsstaryu

Well-Known Member
That's a good point too! Cynthia using her gimmick against Iris would've just revealed it to the world, and there'd be no point since she ended up beating her without it. It's preservation, but it's also not a means of disrespect.
A good kunoichi never shows her trump card twice.
 

PaperCutVictim

Well-Known Member
I'm happy with this for the most part. With half the team (including Pikachu) down, the remaining 3 had to step up, and I was really hoping Dracovish and Sirfetch'd would get their moments to shine. I have to say, I'm quite pleased with their performances. "Valor" was certainly an appropriate title for this. Dracovish was scrappy af in this episode! Getting slapped by Garchomp's Dragon Claw was understandable (holy hell that speed), but then going blow for blow with Roserade and coming out on top, refusing to be recalled despite being poisoned and wanting to fight to the bitter end was great, and I especially give love to it for landing a Fishious Rend on Milotic before going down. I've always thought if a pokemon is going to go down, it should go down swinging, and that final "**** you" to Milotic was even better than I hoped for.

I was quite happy with Sirfetch'd; a scrappy performance from a pokemon who has not had the greatest performances and was due for a moment to shine, and shine he did. I appreciated the Captain America Brutal Swing to take out the Stealth Rock (more on the Stealth Rock in a second though), and I particularly loved him blocking Iron Head as he attacked with Fury Cutter. Attacking while defending yourself with a shield simultaneously is criminally underused in media, and I had always felt that should have been one of Sirfetch'd's most abused quirks. You've got a knightly duck with a shield and a sword... leek.... thing. Trading head to head while blocking incoming attacks with his shield should have been something he ruthlessly abused at any given chance. Anyways, that aside, I liked his battle with Milotic. Also, I had hoped that Sirfetch'd would be part of the reason why Cynthia would choose to D-Max instead of Mega Evolve, and Sirfetch'd did far better against Garchomp than I expected, though I wish he had been able to trade a few more blows before going for an all-or-nothing play. At any rate, I'm glad that Detect remains part of his moveset, and I have to say despite my nitpicks, I enjoyed the Meteor Assault vs Draco Meteor part. Good on him for making a monster like Cynthia's Garchomp bleed (in a proverbial sense), and I must say I really enjoyed that he fainted on his feet. A valiant effort fittingly capped off with defiance to the end. Beautiful.

Lucario's part in the episode was short (understandable, he's got a whole episode to himself later) but I loved Cinderace popping out to cheer on their buddy. I appreciated that. Also, Infernape getting hyped watching Lucario plow through the first Air Slash was also fun (poor Professor Oak though XD). I would have preferred the reserves actually be in the fray alongside their juniors, but I'm learning to live with this. And I have to say, Lucario's part in the episode was worth it just to see him using Togekiss's smug fat face as a punching bag. Deserved. **** Serene Grace.

A few nitpicks I have:
- Lesspeko, not more. First time, fine. Second time, uhh... sure, okay. Everything after that, just why? Hell, I would have traded the Morpeko scenes for more of Ash's pokemon at Oak's, or Goh and Hop watching in the stands, or Diantha and Leon watching, or even just like a still shot of Dawn watching the match. Pretty sure it was because of animation budget issues, so obviously can't have more of the battle (which would have been the preferred choice), but geez.

- I kind of get Cynthia using Stealth Rock, but this would have been a lot better if she had opened the match with it (say, Ash opening with Dragonite and Cynthia opening with Garchomp, Dragonite starts with Dragon Dance, Cynthia takes an opportunity to set Stealth Rock, recalls for Spiritomb, battle goes as normal), so that it would justify Ash's reluctance to switch. Yes, he normally doesn't switch to begin with, but it would have been a way to make it more understandable why he wouldn't. It still worked, since she set it up when she had an opening and knowing that Ash's pokemon were going to have to switch in sometime, I just mean it would have been better if it came at the beginning or somewhere in the first episode.

- I'm a bit salty that Lucario didn't have Steadfast or Inner Focus (preferably Steadfast) revealed as his ability. With all the mention of abilities, I would have thought that would play a role, especially since a speed boost from Steadfast would go a fair way in justifying why he's able to finish off Cynthia's last 2 by himself. It wouldn't have made Cynthia look bad either. It's not something you could call a misplay; how would she have known ahead of time what his ability was? That said, he did seem a bit faster after flinching. But they made no mention of Steadfast, so until they say otherwise, I'm going to play it safe and assume it was Aura bond stuff and the reason for Goh's confidence in Lucario was his faith in Ash and Lucario's bond.

I do think the battle could be better, mostly from the standpoint of visual polish/eye candy, but overall, it's alright. I'm enjoying myself. I felt this was a pretty believable comeback for Ash, without making Cynthia look bad. I suppose one could complain that Cynthia's Garchomp's moveset is bad, but to be fair, Dragon Claw and Draco Meteor at least have always looked damn strong in the anime, and Scale Shot has been no joke too. I feel the battle's overall really solid, so now I'm hoping for a strong finish to the battle.
 
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PaperCutVictim

Well-Known Member
Also, just to chip in my two cents about Cynthia Mega Evolving Garchomp against Iris, I don't think it has anything to do with respect. I think it's simply a matter of tipping the odds in her favor. Maybe she weighed the odds and saw that her base form Garchomp has a 5:5 matchup against Iris's Haxorus, maybe even 6:4. Those are odds worth playing, and she probably would have if this were a friendly match. But at crunch time? Still not bad, but why take those odds when she had the means to tip the odds to become even more favorable? Getting eliminated in the quarterfinals because she didn't want to show her Mega Evolution trump card would be an embarrassment. This kind of stuff happens in real life competitions all the time, and it is embarrassing each time. So I guess it is a kind of respect, but above all, it would simply be because Cynthia wants to ensure that she wins.
 

DuquÊ?

Too lazy to pick a pic
Ok, everyone talked their piece, so, I'll be simple.

Cynthia is playing smart while Ash is struggling between catch up and be one step behind. It's actually very exciting and I'm glad for sirfetch'd and dracovish putting an awesome effort here to even the chances. Dracovish's persistence was indeed touching, sirfetch'd had a superb performance.

I agree Cynthia being calm and collected is somewhat unnerving, because the only times she was surprised were when Ash pulled something too "Ash style", but, that make the match interesting, if keeping you wary about who will win. Ash, of course, but, they are doing a good work there.

I'd be glad if they have had sirfetch'd defeating garchomp by a total fluke, just to see Cynthia a little tense, but, it isn't such a big problem.

Also, togekiss sounds like an old hag trying to be classy.
 

Kage-Pikachu

Well-Known Member
My only real complaint was the clash of Fury Cutter and Iron Head being obscured by smoke, i dislike that lots of contact has not been drawn in some of these battles. Other than that, I really enjoyed this episode. I went into it seriously hoping that Cynthia would not use dynamax since i hated the idea of her not using Mega Garchomp, but after seeing her Garchomp in action and seeing her wait until the end of the episode, i now have a lot more respect for the decision.

Dracovish and Sirfetch'd were amazing this episode! I couldn't believe how well Sirfetch'd did against Garchomp, his Meteor Assault is incredible! His final clash reminded me of Rock Lee during his fight against Gaara. We knew he was going to lose, but he went out while still on his feet (also like Barry's Empoleon). Seeing Dracovish legitimately angry was nice, i loved Meowth's translation of his anger, gave more to his personality. He did great against Roserade and Milotic, I was afraid he was going to double knock out Roserade so I am glad that was not the case and he was able to score a clean victory.

I agree that it's disappointing that Lucario didn't get a speed boost or flinch immunity, that would have been a nice way to force Cynthia to Dynamax.
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
Why does Togekiss sound like its somebody straight up reading the lines from the script?

The Infernape scene was so not needed. They knew what they were doing

I know Leon is feeling like a Chad because two people are fighting over him.

Which is freaking weird because all Cynthia said in the other battle is she wants to reach the top and now she’s explicitly fighting with Ash to fight Leon

Something I find very awkward is that Ash and Cynthia aren’t even happy they’re battling each other. Cynthia quite frankly said she hyped fighting Ash so she can fight Leon. Not be the monarch, fight Leon. And so does Ash.

They literally just consider each other obstacles to fight Leon which is vastly different from him wanting to challenge her in DP

That right there told me that Cynthia wouldn’t have cared if Steven won nor Ash with Iris as long as they fought Leon
 
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Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
The episode was pretty entertaining... the Stealth Rock strategy still makes no sense even now. At no point has Ash had the luxury of switching his Pokémon, until he finally got the chance with Dracovish yet it refused. Worst part is Cynthia knew exactly what Ash's team was going in so she was aware Sirfetch'd and Lucario were his remaining Pokémon, thus Stealth Rock was useless.
I ain't touching Dynamax Togekiss here... I'm still just confused how it helps her more than Mega Garchomp would.
 

Hu Tao

Serebii Lurker for at least half a decade
The episode was pretty good, obviously with the underdeveloped JN team and animation being solid especially for JN but not reaching the heights of XY, something about a certain fire-haired monkey being missing, it wasn't perfect and perhaps underwhelming for a battle that fans wanted for over a decade. Definitely wasn't expecting Dynamax Togekiss and I feel neutral about the decision, see what it does next week. Garchomp having 3 Dragon type attacks is questionable, but I can give them the benefit of the doubt as Scale Shot showcases an IoA move and resembles Stone Edge's old animation in the anime prior to the change in XY. The sneaky pebbles were a cool addition to Garchomp and could be used next week as its PLA version or how it would usually appear in the anime as an attack. And of course, the duck and fish got their redemption after their questionable Drasna battle and doing poorly in most other battles like Bea and Steven, which was heartwarming to see. I liked how Garchomp clearly faltered after that direct hit with the Meteor Assault - one gripe I had with the otherwise amazing Ash vs Kukui battle was that everyone made such a huge deal about Lycanroc hitting Incineroar with Stone Edge shards, when all the damage seemed to be a little pain done on Incineroar's arm. Anyways, Lucario should have a good chance to shine next week with some damage tacked on to Garchomp, and an entire episode next week should be enough time to prevent a situation like the Raihan battle where we were cheated out of an extended battle with Duraludon, as in the Pokémon who was showcased as being pretty equal to even Leon's Charizard but ended up getting G-Max Aura Sphere'd out of existence.
 
The Virgin Lucario who needs Aura and Mega Evolution to shine vs the CHAD DRACOVISH AND SIRFETCHD who need no gimmicks to deal major damage to Cynthia’s team and Garchomp. Goats.
Sirfetch’d has gained a lot of my respect after today. Love Mr Fish and Kamon.
 
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