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The Semifinals IV: Impact (1214)

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Even the moveset thing which is dumb doesn’t actually effect the narrative of Garchomp being all powerful and unstoppable, it doesn’t reflect on Cynthia’s own competence
The most hilarious part of this argument is that most of those people are perfectly fine with Ash-Greninja and CUT
This argument of the moveset makes no sense when a lot of people including Ash used unoptimized movesets and still succeeded during several years
 

Bendicion

Water Master
don't bother engaging with Scott, next you know he's gonna start DMing you to argue viewpoints and become unhealthily obsessed with it, which is very weird for a man who's been here for a decade atleast
2 decades
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
Y'know, this is the same swan song.

Opponent turns out to be super good in the first half, until Ash starts showing them up in the second half. The most ridiculous example was Raihan, who got terminated effortlessly by base Lucario with his best Pokemon.

Cynthia is similar to that, but the problem is that she isn't just smart enough to handle Ash in the second half when she totally should. Endurance aside, she simply did not do her obvious research (she's into that, for god's sake) on Lucario but got completely absorbed in taking Pikachu down with something very rudimentary but easy to pull.
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
Other than the oddity of Garchomp not having a ground move, there really is nothing too outrageous about her handling in the second half.
Except something as easy as that is something she shouldn't just...forget about bringing into battle. Besides the totally useless Stealth Rock. Maybe if it had been another trainer, I'd understand, but this is freaking Cynthia we're talking about; the smartest of the smart. She's literally the opposite of Leon, but she was starting to get a bit too dumb that it'd make Leon blush.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
I felt no ways about this battle. This didn’t even feel like they cared about keeping their “promise” of having Ash and Cynthia battle and more like it was a connivence to show how strong Ash became at Cynthia’s expense due to Sinnoh games. Welp but I echo everyone else’s complaints.
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
Cynthia isn't confirmed to have a Lucario in the anime and has never been shown with one. You should stop bringing up the games here. Anime Cynthia also owns a Glaceon as seen in BW that she doesn't own in the games.
Dude...she literally has Lucario's 'ears' as part of her character design. Not to mention, it's part of every in-game team she has, and she's the Sinnoh Champion. You're really telling me she didn't know that Lucario, a Pokémon native to her region, are Pokémon that you shouldn't really use Flinches against? Has she just never faced a single Lucario?

I'm not a career Pokémon trainer and even I could tell it was a terrible idea.
Roserade and Milotic both had type or move advantages over Dracovish. Ash turned the battle around because he saw how Iris lost and used Dracovish to his advantage. She was also clearly saving Togekiss for a last resort (which is why in the first episode she also recalls it after hurting Pikachu a bit rather than leaving it out, she wanted to save her "tank" for the end), and Sirfetch'd damaging Garchomp as much as it did was something Cynthia did not see coming.
This...I don't even have words. She was trying to save her 'tank' for a Steel-type, but she had no problems throwing out her ace against an unknown Pokémon? And that's after her being cautious and clever throughout the first half of the battle, switching out and making the best switches she could at the time, only to suddenly forget type matchups mid-battle? Again, this wouldn't be a problem if Cynthia hadn't demonstrated amazing critical thinking skills during the first half of the battle only to lose them when the writers decided Ash was backed up too far against the wall.

Not to mention, she'd already lost a Pokémon to the same Sirfetch'd at that point.
Really the only thing I agree with is Garchomp not having a ground move, as it should have at least had Dig. But claiming the order she used her pokemon in, is wrong, as if Cynthia is not playing by ear and using what she thought she would win with at the time, is odd. She expected Garchomp to defeat Sirfetch'd, she expected Togekiss to defeat Lucario and not have to use Garchomp again. Obviously in-universe Cynthia had no expectation Ash would win, so that's what she planned to do, wear down Ash's team.
And why did Cynthia suddenly start underestimating Ash, having 'no expectations' that he would win? She played the first half cautiously, making sure she had Ash on the back foot throughout. Not a hint of overconfidence.
I'm sorry but people keep saying how we should NEVER conflate the game logic with anime's logic, so why is it we pick and choose when we do it?
If I were thinking with game logic in mind, I'd have a thousand other problems with this match. I'm looking at this battle purely from an 'anime' perspective.
Fact of the matter is, Cynthia is NOT a Lucario trainer, Lucario has never been as iconic with Cynthia and she isn't a Lucario trainer in the anime therefore isn't obligated to exactly know what ability Ash's Lucario would be having and how it can withstand her togekiss. BDSP has zero relevance here
She literally has a Lucario accessory. The Pokémon is part of every in-game team she has, as well as the Sync Pair thing in Masters. Hell, even her ancestor uses the mon! Plus, she's the Sinnoh Champion! Why is this the only incarnation of Cynthia who has no connection to the species? Not to mention, she should've known this was the Lucario that took out a Gigantamax Pokémon without a gimmick, so she should've been prepared for it and...I dunno, looked up the species if she didn't already know about it? Or did she just not do any research on Ash, or was (Arceus forbid) underestimating him?

Again, I wouldn't have had any expectations if she hadn't demonstrated the capability to be smart.
Just because Sirfetchd has damaging moves does NOT mean it can destroy Garchomp lol. Cynthia had no way of absolutely knowing how strong sirfetchd resolve can be and how strong it and it's moves are. She was visibly surprised when battling the duck as well. Again, she isn't supposed to have knowledge of all of Ash's mons exact strengths and all. It's not like she brought Milotic in suddenly, Milotic was already in the field, had a super effective move ready to go against Sirfetchd, she was using Milotic's characteristics to try and separate the duck's tools and it was a valid counter.
So she didn't know how strong Sirfetch'd would be, had no idea what it was capable of...despite the fact that she'd already lost her Milotic to it? After seeing it break through a direct super-effective attack with nothing but sheer determination and Meteor Assault, she decided to...throw caution to the wind and toss out her ace, and not even use Mega Evolution to ensure that it would take out Sirfetch'd without taking that much damage while also doing far more damage with its hits??? Hell, the move that busted up Garchomp was the same move that took out her Milotic!

Like seriously man, if your only defense for this strategic screwup is that she 'didn't know' what a Pokémon she'd already faced was capable of, especially when it was using the same 'charge forward, do or die' tactic, then why didn't she play it safe rather than risk her ace, provided the information she got from losing a Pokémon wasn't enough info already?
It's the anime my man, type advantages aren't everything. Her betting Garchomp could finish it quickly than Togekiss isn't a bad decision, why would she think otherwise based on HER knowledge in the anime. I'm sorry but this feels like nitpicking, which can be applied to every battle in the anime
Type advantages aren't everything, sure...but not taking advantage of your natural advantages and throwing Hail Marys after having spent the entire half being clever and cautious reeks of bad writing. It's not nitpicking, it's literally seeing this character do a complete 180 strategy-wise. She had a perfect Fairy/Flying Pokémon waiting in the wings to kill it, and decided to save it. For a Steel type!
I do however agree with your reasonings that not using the DP team and seeing it in the sidelines just cheering Ash's other team on hurts and takes the soul out of it a bit. Absolutely valid to feel less invested as a result. I also felt the animation was extremely shoddy then it should have been, considering unfortunately the animes production BTS was a shitshow
I guess it's good that we can agree on this at least
Also yeah don't bother engaging with Scott, next you know he's gonna start DMing you to argue viewpoints and become unhealthily obsessed with it, which is very weird for a man who's been here for a decade atleast
And this too
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
The most hilarious part of this argument is that most of those people are perfectly fine with Ash-Greninja and CUT
This argument of the moveset makes no sense when a lot of people including Ash used unoptimized movesets and still succeeded during several years
Dunno what you replied to, but I don't think anyone was ever fine with Greninja having Cut. In fact, it was always a super-common complaint that it never got Night Slash and was still using a stupid HM in the League.
 

sutellakiara

Shirona, my beloved...
Fact of the matter is, Cynthia is NOT a Lucario trainer, Lucario has never been as iconic with Cynthia and she isn't a Lucario trainer in the anime therefore isn't obligated to exactly know what ability Ash's Lucario would be having and how it can withstand her togekiss. BDSP has zero relevance here
Has a Lucario in literally all of her teams. It's the only Pokemon besides Garchomp and Spiritomb that hasn't been swapped or changed around.
Has Lucario head thingy as her head accessory.
Her latest unit in Masters is a Master Pair and Sygna Suit with Lucario who gets wanked to be Red's Pikachu-tier level (for the unaware Red gets wanked to a ridiculous level in Masters)

Trying to pretend Cynthia's one iconic Pokemon and part of her iconic team is not Lucario is utterly disingenuous. BDSP has zero relevance here? There's a reason why the team she packed is the one she packed and she didn't use Kommo-o despite them going out of their way to use Kommo-o in a previous episode.

People didn't even expect Spiritomb, yet another of her most iconic Pokemon, and were betting on Glaceon and Kommo-o to finish up her team since those were her other Pokemon that had appeared in the anime beforehand but at the end of the day she was given it, same with Togekiss who's ended up replacing poor Gastrodon through the years as a "mainstay" on her team. When you realize that they decided on giving her some of her iconic Pokemon again, all but one, that's when things start looking weird.

Not giving her a Lucario is a very conscious choice and I seriously doubt "Lucario is not a iconic Pokemon of her team" was the reason for that choice.
It's very very obvious that they removed the Lucario from Cynthia's team because Ash has one and they cannot have the spotlight taken away from it.
Endurance aside, she simply did not do her obvious research (she's into that, for god's sake) on Lucario but got completely absorbed in taking Pikachu down with something very rudimentary but easy to pull.
The funniest thing is how they made a point to show that Cynthia was aware of the super duper special snowflake Lucario egg but somehow that's where she decided to stop when she found out where the egg ended up as.

>Hmm, I'm scared shitless of Pikachu and Ash now has a Special Snowflake Lucario...
>Lets give Garchomp, my Ace, no Ground moves at all!
Seems legit.

Just because it wasn't the final battle of the tournament doesn't make it less important.
If it was not any less important then they really made a terrible job at portraying so. And not just this battle but all the other M8 battles too.
The whole tournament is built-up at the expense and detriment of all other characters on it just for the sake Leon.
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
I think it's rather clear that this Cynthia isn't a Lucario user even if she has Lucario decs, just as how Iris isn't a Hydreigon user despite having a Hydreigon look. Honestly, it would be even dumber if Cynthia didn't just use a hidden Lucario against Ash, but of course the writers wanted Garchomp to be front and center with that last-minute "she was born from an egg since I got her like your blue puppy!" backstory nonsense.

Regardless of that, Cynthia should still know what to do against a Lucario because she's the erudite (who totaled so many players) of the Champions.
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
I think it's rather clear that this Cynthia isn't a Lucario user even if she has Lucario decs, just as how Iris isn't a Hydreigon user despite having a Hydreigon look. Honestly, it would be even dumber if Cynthia didn't just use a hidden Lucario against Ash, but of course the writers wanted Garchomp to be front and center with that last-minute "she was born from an egg since I got her like your blue puppy!" backstory nonsense.

Regardless of that, Cynthia should still know what to do against a Lucario because she's the erudite (who totaled so many players) of the Champions.
Let's also not forget that she's literally the Champion of the region where Lucario is from.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Dude...she literally has Lucario's 'ears' as part of her character design. Not to mention, it's part of every in-game team she has, and she's the Sinnoh Champion. You're really telling me she didn't know that Lucario, a Pokémon native to her region, are Pokémon that you shouldn't really use Flinches against? Has she just never faced a single Lucario?

I'm not a career Pokémon trainer and even I could tell it was a terrible idea.

This...I don't even have words. She was trying to save her 'tank' for a Steel-type, but she had no problems throwing out her ace against an unknown Pokémon? And that's after her being cautious and clever throughout the first half of the battle, switching out and making the best switches she could at the time, only to suddenly forget type matchups mid-battle? Again, this wouldn't be a problem if Cynthia hadn't demonstrated amazing critical thinking skills during the first half of the battle only to lose them when the writers decided Ash was backed up too far against the wall.

Not to mention, she'd already lost a Pokémon to the same Sirfetch'd at that point.

And why did Cynthia suddenly start underestimating Ash, having 'no expectations' that he would win? She played the first half cautiously, making sure she had Ash on the back foot throughout. Not a hint of overconfidence.

If I were thinking with game logic in mind, I'd have a thousand other problems with this match. I'm looking at this battle purely from an 'anime' perspective.

She literally has a Lucario accessory. The Pokémon is part of every in-game team she has, as well as the Sync Pair thing in Masters. Hell, even her ancestor uses the mon! Plus, she's the Sinnoh Champion! Why is this the only incarnation of Cynthia who has no connection to the species? Not to mention, she should've known this was the Lucario that took out a Gigantamax Pokémon without a gimmick, so she should've been prepared for it and...I dunno, looked up the species if she didn't already know about it? Or did she just not do any research on Ash, or was (Arceus forbid) underestimating him?

Again, I wouldn't have had any expectations if she hadn't demonstrated the capability to be smart.

So she didn't know how strong Sirfetch'd would be, had no idea what it was capable of...despite the fact that she'd already lost her Milotic to it? After seeing it break through a direct super-effective attack with nothing but sheer determination and Meteor Assault, she decided to...throw caution to the wind and toss out her ace, and not even use Mega Evolution to ensure that it would take out Sirfetch'd without taking that much damage while also doing far more damage with its hits??? Hell, the move that busted up Garchomp was the same move that took out her Milotic!

Like seriously man, if your only defense for this strategic screwup is that she 'didn't know' what a Pokémon she'd already faced was capable of, especially when it was using the same 'charge forward, do or die' tactic, then why didn't she play it safe rather than risk her ace, provided the information she got from losing a Pokémon wasn't enough info already?

Type advantages aren't everything, sure...but not taking advantage of your natural advantages and throwing Hail Marys after having spent the entire half being clever and cautious reeks of bad writing. It's not nitpicking, it's literally seeing this character do a complete 180 strategy-wise. She had a perfect Fairy/Flying Pokémon waiting in the wings to kill it, and decided to save it. For a Steel type!

I guess it's good that we can agree on this at least

And this too

Has a Lucario in literally all of her teams. It's the only Pokemon besides Garchomp and Spiritomb that hasn't been swapped or changed around.
Has Lucario head thingy as her head accessory.
Her latest unit in Masters is a Master Pair and Sygna Suit with Lucario who gets wanked to be Red's Pikachu-tier level (for the unaware Red gets wanked to a ridiculous level in Masters)

Trying to pretend Cynthia's one iconic Pokemon and part of her iconic team is not Lucario is utterly disingenuous. BDSP has zero relevance here? There's a reason why the team she packed is the one she packed and she didn't use Kommo-o despite them going out of their way to use Kommo-o in a previous episode.

People didn't even expect Spiritomb, yet another of her most iconic Pokemon, and were betting on Glaceon and Kommo-o to finish up her team since those were her other Pokemon that had appeared in the anime beforehand but at the end of the day she was given it, same with Togekiss who's ended up replacing poor Gastrodon through the years as a "mainstay" on her team. When you realize that they decided on giving her some of her iconic Pokemon again, all but one, that's when things start looking weird.

Not giving her a Lucario is a very conscious choice and I seriously doubt "Lucario is not a iconic Pokemon of her team" was the reason for that choice.
It's very very obvious that they removed the Lucario from Cynthia's team because Ash has one and they cannot have the spotlight taken away from it.

The funniest thing is how they made a point to show that Cynthia was aware of the super duper special snowflake Lucario egg but somehow that's where she decided to stop when she found out where the egg ended up as.

>Hmm, I'm scared shitless of Pikachu and Ash now has a Special Snowflake Lucario...
>Lets give Garchomp, my Ace, no Ground moves at all!
Seems legit.


If it was not any less important then they really made a terrible job at portraying so. And not just this battle but all the other M8 battles too.
The whole tournament is built-up at the expense and detriment of all other characters on it just for the sake Leon.

I'm sorry but NO! Just because she has a Lucario in her other incarnations doesn't mean it applies to the anime when we haven't seen it. Design choices for a costume mean nothing, does Iono use Magnemite in her team? Does Iris use Hydreigon?
Her ancestor we don't even know in the anime has a Lucario or not. Heck this is the FIRST time I'm hearing anyone say Lucario is iconic for Cynthia. I'm sorry but she's always been associated with Garchomp and Spiritomb more. She's had Roserade in all her teams pretty much too, is that iconic as well?
Masters shilling mons for money doesn't mean anything, or are you gonna tell me Lisia is heavily related to Shiny Galarian Rapidash or that Nate was always associated with Braviary and on and on

I'm sorry but this is the forcing of game stuff into the anime to prove a point which isn't there. The fact Cynthia is expected to be a god computer with everything known instead of just being a great smart strategist with strong well raised mons is just unfair, and is leading to the worst type of nitpicking you can use to pick apart any battle coz again, by that logic everything ever can be and should be countered. There's just no room for things to backfire, not go according to plan or still lead to defeat here. It just seems like insane dogpiling on the battle due to frustrations with it on other factors

And yeah, even if it took out a Milotic that was already damaged by Dracovish mind you, Sirfetchd didn't necessarily need to be powerful enough to injure Garchomp in Cynthia's eyes. Nobody watching expected that either. Mega evolving straight away instead of saving ur cards would be dumb. The anime goes out of its way to show the duck's performance as extraordinary and surprising, and Cynthia being surprised as well, which she is allowed to be.

I'm sorry but this still comes off as nitpicking to me, if you guys have any other points or new perspectives to this I'd love to carry on the debate coz otherwise to me atleast, this just seems like unfair disingenious dogpiling on a battle not liked for other reasons
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
...Can I just say it's incredible this never happened for Ash at all. I'm surprised. Sure, it would've been awful, but the writers don't care about doing awful stuff.
Has there ever been a same fighting type vs fighting type matchup before tho?
I feel it'll be too repetitive and difficult to come up with an engaging battle for it that won't be simple martial arts, which is probably why they've never done it
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
The fandom: No more Lucario pandering!
Also the fandom: *complaing about no Cynthia's Lucario*
Lucario is a cool mon and everyone secretly agrees and wants to see more Lucarios, that is my new fav conspiracy theory :p
Seriously tho while the pandering may be annoying, I'll never get over how cool Lucario as a mon generally is
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
I'm sorry but NO! Just because she has a Lucario in her other incarnations doesn't mean it applies to the anime when we haven't seen it. Design choices for a costume mean nothing, does Iono use Magnemite in her team? Does Iris use Hydreigon?
Her ancestor we don't even know in the anime has a Lucario or not. Heck this is the FIRST time I'm hearing anyone say Lucario is iconic for Cynthia. I'm sorry but she's always been associated with Garchomp and Spiritomb more. She's had Roserade in all her teams pretty much too, is that iconic as well?
Masters shilling mons for money doesn't mean anything, or are you gonna tell me Lisia is heavily related to Shiny Galarian Rapidash or that Nate was always associated with Braviary and on and on
Okay, so even IF we pretend that this version of Cynthia has nothing to do with one of her most iconic Pokémon for some reason, that still doesn't explain why she doesn't know that Lucario, a Pokémon from her native region, would be less than ideal for a Togekiss whose main gimmick is using Serene Grace flinch tactics. Hell, she even knows he has a Lucario!
I'm sorry but this is the forcing of game stuff into the anime to prove a point which isn't there. The fact Cynthia is expected to be a god computer with everything known instead of just being a great smart strategist with strong well raised mons is just unfair, and is leading to the worst type of nitpicking you can use to pick apart any battle coz again, by that logic everything ever can be and should be countered. There's just no room for things to backfire, not go according to plan or still lead to defeat here. It just seems like insane dogpiling on the battle due to frustrations with it on other factors
This is not forcing 'game logic', this is basic logic.
And yeah, even if it took out a Milotic that was already damaged by Dracovish mind you, Sirfetchd didn't necessarily need to be powerful enough to injure Garchomp in Cynthia's eyes. Nobody watching expected that either. Mega evolving straight away instead of saving ur cards would be dumb. The anime goes out of its way to show the duck's performance as extraordinary and surprising, and Cynthia being surprised as well, which she is allowed to be.
Dude...seriously, if your only defense here is saying 'she was surprised by a Pokémon she'd already seen in action, and that's why she sent her ace rather than using the perfect counter that was waiting in the wings', then I don't even know what to say.
I'm sorry but this still comes off as nitpicking to me, if you guys have any other points or new perspectives to this I'd love to carry on the debate coz otherwise to me atleast, this just seems like unfair disingenious dogpiling on a battle not liked for other reasons
Good, then we have nothing more to say on this topic.
The fandom: No more Lucario pandering!
Also the fandom: *complaing about no Cynthia's Lucario*=
Lucario is a cool mon and everyone secretly agrees and wants to see more Lucarios, that is my new fav conspiracy theory :p
Seriously tho while the pandering may be annoying, I'll never get over how cool Lucario as a mon generally is
...just to let you guys know, I only have a problem with Ash's Lucario in particular. Lucario is, in fact, one of my all-time favorite Pokémon.
 
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