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The Semifinals IV: Impact (1214)

SevereRacccon6

Sinnoh and Kalos Enjoyer
I do not dare to ask who this PokeRaf guy is, nor do I believe there's absolutely any need at all to mention crazy Youtubers.
He makes clickbatey videos sometimes but hes usually pretty sane, stuff like that are just theories
 
I see how BP and Aura are similar but retconning BP into Aura made no sense… so all Pokémon can have Aura now…
Anyways we were robbed of Mega Lucario vs Mega Garchomp damn it
 
Ash-Lucario AMV with XYZ?
 

Shego

90% Kissshipper
I’m impressed that Ash managed to win against Cynthia. He could be the very first trainer that she had ever lost to. Despite that, both of them did such an amazing job. I sort of rooted for both of them. I didn’t think Cynthia would Dymamax her Togekiss due to her having her Mega Evolution reserved.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
I remember betting money with Ash winning this battle. Now, I need to see people pay up.
 

Blood Red

1996-2023
With the finale of the series starting, I decided to rewatch the Masters 8 to get a fresh perspective. Not really much to say about the lackluster Steven battle, but there's a lot to say about this fight; one that was built up in Sinnoh years ago and was delivered with...mixed results.

First, Cynthia: During the first half of the battle, you really get to see why she's such a feared and respected trainer. Taking advantage of switches to disorient her opponent, using a bag of dirty tricks with Spiritomb, setting up hazards early, surprising her opponent with her Pokémon's abilities, even taking down Ash's most powerful Pokémon with a cheap Destiny Bond...the first half of the match did a great job at showing not only her Pokémon's strength, but also a tactical mind that seemed to vastly outstrip her opponent. But of course, this wasn't her fight to win, and the second half makes that clear.

After such an amazing showing, I really didn't get why she saw Ash's pure Fighting type Pokémon and didn't toss out her Fairy/Flying that would double-resist its best move. Not to mention, her Togekiss clearly had the advantage in reach, being a Special Attacker and both its typings having a clear advantage on Sirfetch'd. Instead, she first let her Milotic face an entirely avoidable defeat, then she sent out her Garchomp to get damaged for...well, no real reason except to find an excuse to Dynamax her Togekiss later on in the fight.

Speaking of Togekiss, why was this thing saved for Ash's Steel-type Pokémon? Did she forget Togekiss is a FAIRY type, as in a Pokémon who'd take super-effective damage from at least one of its moves? Plus, did she also forget that both of Lucario's non-Hidden abilities make it a bad idea to use a 'mon that causes flinches? Like hey, Shirona-san, don't you have a Lucario of your own? You should know this stuff! Using Togekiss here was a complete waste of a great Pokémon, and she realistically should've saved Garchomp for the final fight. Then again, it wouldn't make a difference because her GROUND type Dragon didn't have a single Ground move. Like...c'mon.

Anyway, on to Ash's side. Dragonite jobs pretty easily without achieving anything of note, because...of course it did. Gengar honestly did all it could, and Pikachu was Peakachu. The rat immediately stepped in and started dominating, completely destroying the Gastrodon that replaced her own trusty Lucario specifically for this match (because she forgot to put Ground type moves on her Garchomp, and this was apparently easier). It even got to demonstrate Counter Shield, and was only taken down thanks to a sneak attack from Spiritomb. The battle up until here was good and made sense, but then Dracovish shows up and everything falls apart. Much like the games, it's pure brute force with zero strategy or smart play involved; you either lose, or you just mash 'Fishious Rend' till you win. It even outright dodges the recall, yet it ends up beating Roserade and bringing Milotic in range for Sirfetch'd because...well, of course it did. All I have to say is, I really wish this thing was the one that got fodderized in the first battle rather than Dragonite; at least Ash uses Dragon Dance in some interesting ways. Anyway, after it goes down Sirfetch'd shows up and does decently well, fainting like a valiant knight. Then Lucario shows up, and it tanks hit after hit after hit because of Cynthia's poor strategizing in the last half, uses its forced 'aura dog big ball', has a fistfight with a Garchomp that has nothing to use against it, and ends up winning thanks to it.

When Ash went into shock and TR started cheering loudly, I assume they wanted the viewer to feel the same, or at least feel like Ash had some 'great victory' here. But honestly, it felt rather empty. Not only did the victory feel unearned because of how much Ash relied on Cynthia's mid-battle lobotomy, seeing him win without his Sinnoh team felt so utterly soulless. The fact that his other Pokémon, the one who should've been in that battle, were just sitting around a TV and cheering was insulting beyond belief. The whole time Lucario was fighting, I kept thinking how much cooler it would've been if Infernape was out there instead. Maybe Torterra could've redeemed itself for all its post-evolution losses. Maybe we could've seen a mid-battle evolution for Buizel.

Not to mention, this insistence on Ash using only his JN team meant Cynthia was forced to ditch her own Lucario; a Pokémon that's always shown to be on her team and is even part of her design motif. What the hell OLM?

In the end, Ash vs Cynthia was nothing special; just another battle that failed to live up to the hype.
 

Kazuniya

how cute~
With the finale of the series starting, I decided to rewatch the Masters 8 to get a fresh perspective. Not really much to say about the lackluster Steven battle, but there's a lot to say about this fight; one that was built up in Sinnoh years ago and was delivered with...mixed results.

First, Cynthia: During the first half of the battle, you really get to see why she's such a feared and respected trainer. Taking advantage of switches to disorient her opponent, using a bag of dirty tricks with Spiritomb, setting up hazards early, surprising her opponent with her Pokémon's abilities, even taking down Ash's most powerful Pokémon with a cheap Destiny Bond...the first half of the match did a great job at showing not only her Pokémon's strength, but also a tactical mind that seemed to vastly outstrip her opponent. But of course, this wasn't her fight to win, and the second half makes that clear.

After such an amazing showing, I really didn't get why she saw Ash's pure Fighting type Pokémon and didn't toss out her Fairy/Flying that would double-resist its best move. Not to mention, her Togekiss clearly had the advantage in reach, being a Special Attacker and both its typings having a clear advantage on Sirfetch'd. Instead, she first let her Milotic face an entirely avoidable defeat, then she sent out her Garchomp to get damaged for...well, no real reason except to find an excuse to Dynamax her Togekiss later on in the fight.

Speaking of Togekiss, why was this thing saved for Ash's Steel-type Pokémon? Did she forget Togekiss is a FAIRY type, as in a Pokémon who'd take super-effective damage from at least one of its moves? Plus, did she also forget that both of Lucario's non-Hidden abilities make it a bad idea to use a 'mon that causes flinches? Like hey, Shirona-san, don't you have a Lucario of your own? You should know this stuff! Using Togekiss here was a complete waste of a great Pokémon, and she realistically should've saved Garchomp for the final fight. Then again, it wouldn't make a difference because her GROUND type Dragon didn't have a single Ground move. Like...c'mon.

Anyway, on to Ash's side. Dragonite jobs pretty easily without achieving anything of note, because...of course it did. Gengar honestly did all it could, and Pikachu was Peakachu. The rat immediately stepped in and started dominating, completely destroying the Gastrodon that replaced her own trusty Lucario specifically for this match (because she forgot to put Ground type moves on her Garchomp, and this was apparently easier). It even got to demonstrate Counter Shield, and was only taken down thanks to a sneak attack from Spiritomb. The battle up until here was good and made sense, but then Dracovish shows up and everything falls apart. Much like the games, it's pure brute force with zero strategy or smart play involved; you either lose, or you just mash 'Fishious Rend' till you win. It even outright dodges the recall, yet it ends up beating Roserade and bringing Milotic in range for Sirfetch'd because...well, of course it did. All I have to say is, I really wish this thing was the one that got fodderized in the first battle rather than Dragonite; at least Ash uses Dragon Dance in some interesting ways. Anyway, after it goes down Sirfetch'd shows up and does decently well, fainting like a valiant knight. Then Lucario shows up, and it tanks hit after hit after hit because of Cynthia's poor strategizing in the last half, uses its forced 'aura dog big ball', has a fistfight with a Garchomp that has nothing to use against it, and ends up winning thanks to it.

When Ash went into shock and TR started cheering loudly, I assume they wanted the viewer to feel the same, or at least feel like Ash had some 'great victory' here. But honestly, it felt rather empty. Not only did the victory feel unearned because of how much Ash relied on Cynthia's mid-battle lobotomy, seeing him win without his Sinnoh team felt so utterly soulless. The fact that his other Pokémon, the one who should've been in that battle, were just sitting around a TV and cheering was insulting beyond belief. The whole time Lucario was fighting, I kept thinking how much cooler it would've been if Infernape was out there instead. Maybe Torterra could've redeemed itself for all its post-evolution losses. Maybe we could've seen a mid-battle evolution for Buizel.

Not to mention, this insistence on Ash using only his JN team meant Cynthia was forced to ditch her own Lucario; a Pokémon that's always shown to be on her team and is even part of her design motif. What the hell OLM?

In the end, Ash vs Cynthia was nothing special; just another battle that failed to live up to the hype.
In addition to everything you said, I found it weird how they established Togekiss has Serene Grace as an ability and then proceeded to do nothing with that. I guess the strategy of using Air Slash to flinch the opponent just didn't occur to Cynthia? They did it like once with Pikachu, and then completely ignored it for the rest of the battle. Like, Cynthia exclusively went for like Sky Attack and it's like she went out of her way to ensure Togekiss is in close proximity to Lucario instead of like trying to keep distance using Air Slash. It was so weird.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
In addition to everything you said, I found it weird how they established Togekiss has Serene Grace as an ability and then proceeded to do nothing with that. I guess the strategy of using Air Slash to flinch the opponent just didn't occur to Cynthia? They did it like once with Pikachu, and then completely ignored it for the rest of the battle.
....What? She literally does it each time she's out, doing it with Lucario as well. Lucario's ability prevented that from affecting
 

sutellakiara

Shirona, my beloved...
setting up hazards early
Boy if only they'd been set up early...

but then Dracovish shows up and everything falls apart. Much like the games, it's pure brute force with zero strategy or smart play involved; you either lose, or you just mash 'Fishious Rend' till you win. It even outright dodges the recall, yet it ends up beating Roserade and bringing Milotic in range for Sirfetch'd because...well, of course it did. All I have to say is, I really wish this thing was the one that got fodderized in the first battle rather than Dragonite; at least Ash uses Dragon Dance in some interesting ways.
I really have to agree. And it was not just there but the Leon fight too, and even the Drasna fight.
The epitome of unga bunga, hits like a truck just because, tanks like a **********er just because, and even gets a special snowflake power-up out of nowhere just because. Just bullrushes everything and wins.
You can't even say that Dracovish is an species particularly known for being a "tank" or something like, I don't know, Snorlax, to try to justify it.
I feel like Dracovish was only really used semi-well during the Steven battle with that. Where the Fishious Rend was used strategically turn 1. Pretty much every other time it was that bore.
 

sutellakiara

Shirona, my beloved...
....What? She literally does it each time she's out, doing it with Lucario as well. Lucario's ability prevented that from affecting
I just went and checked and Lucario flinched once and the second time he just repelled by Air Slash with Bullet Punch after which Cynthia Dynamaxes and Air Slash is never used again.
 

Blood Red

1996-2023
In addition to everything you said, I found it weird how they established Togekiss has Serene Grace as an ability and then proceeded to do nothing with that. I guess the strategy of using Air Slash to flinch the opponent just didn't occur to Cynthia? They did it like once with Pikachu, and then completely ignored it for the rest of the battle. Like, Cynthia exclusively went for like Sky Attack and it's like she went out of her way to ensure Togekiss is in close proximity to Lucario instead of like trying to keep distance using Air Slash. It was so weird.
It's because her Togekiss, for some reason, was saved up for a Pokémon that had Inner Focus; an ability that prevents flinching, and just another result of her mid-battle lobotomy. This is why I think she should've tossed it out against Sirfetch'd, which aside from being weak to and resisted by Togekiss's types, has Steadfast: an ability that doesn't prevent flinching, but does increase Speed after every flinch. This could've given the battle more strategic depth, and made flinching via Serena Grace a risky tactic rather than a complete non-option.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
From what I recall, Cynthia kept spamming Sky Attack at Lucario, which was kinda dumb.
Na they specifically had a scene which hyper focused on Cynthia wanting to make Lucario flinch but it didn't coz of its inner focus. Which is when she goes for the Dynamax to maximise its speed and try to make it immobile
I just went and checked and Lucario flinched once and the second time he just repelled by Air Slash with Bullet Punch after which Cynthia Dynamaxes and Air Slash is never used again.
"Flinched once" the whole scene was an extended sequence hyper focusing on the "did Lucario flinch, did it" only for its inner focus to prevent that
It's because her Togekiss, for some reason, was saved up for a Pokémon that had Inner Focus; an ability that prevents flinching, and just another result of her mid-battle lobotomy. This is why I think she should've tossed it out against Sirfetch'd, which aside from being weak to and resisted by Togekiss's types, has Steadfast: an ability that doesn't prevent flinching, but does increase Speed after every flinch. This could've given the battle more strategic depth, and made flinching via Serena Grace a risky tactic rather than a complete non-option.
This is such a disingenious take coz you're acting as if Cynthia is supposed to be the viewer and know everything and be a 8D chess master or something

How is Cynthia supposed to know Lucario will have inner focus and resist Togekiss's flinching, or that Garchomp will be able to be damaged by Sirfetchd and all.
It's as if you're assuming she has hindsight and should calculate her decisions better
Milotic has fairy moves and has proven to be able to wrap around dragons and destroy them, which is what she does with Dracovish and tried to do with Sirfetchd
And again, Garchomp has proven to be a beast and someone she can rely on. She saw Sirfetchd as formidable and decided to take it out quickly. Why is that any less valid than deciding to go for Togekiss when again, she isn't supposed to have hindsight or predict literally everyone about Ashs mons and their potential
 

Dragonsoldier77

Bittersweet Satisfaction
With the finale of the series starting, I decided to rewatch the Masters 8 to get a fresh perspective. Not really much to say about the lackluster Steven battle, but there's a lot to say about this fight; one that was built up in Sinnoh years ago and was delivered with...mixed results.

First, Cynthia: During the first half of the battle, you really get to see why she's such a feared and respected trainer. Taking advantage of switches to disorient her opponent, using a bag of dirty tricks with Spiritomb, setting up hazards early, surprising her opponent with her Pokémon's abilities, even taking down Ash's most powerful Pokémon with a cheap Destiny Bond...the first half of the match did a great job at showing not only her Pokémon's strength, but also a tactical mind that seemed to vastly outstrip her opponent. But of course, this wasn't her fight to win, and the second half makes that clear.

After such an amazing showing, I really didn't get why she saw Ash's pure Fighting type Pokémon and didn't toss out her Fairy/Flying that would double-resist its best move. Not to mention, her Togekiss clearly had the advantage in reach, being a Special Attacker and both its typings having a clear advantage on Sirfetch'd. Instead, she first let her Milotic face an entirely avoidable defeat, then she sent out her Garchomp to get damaged for...well, no real reason except to find an excuse to Dynamax her Togekiss later on in the fight.

Speaking of Togekiss, why was this thing saved for Ash's Steel-type Pokémon? Did she forget Togekiss is a FAIRY type, as in a Pokémon who'd take super-effective damage from at least one of its moves? Plus, did she also forget that both of Lucario's non-Hidden abilities make it a bad idea to use a 'mon that causes flinches? Like hey, Shirona-san, don't you have a Lucario of your own? You should know this stuff! Using Togekiss here was a complete waste of a great Pokémon, and she realistically should've saved Garchomp for the final fight. Then again, it wouldn't make a difference because her GROUND type Dragon didn't have a single Ground move. Like...c'mon.

Anyway, on to Ash's side. Dragonite jobs pretty easily without achieving anything of note, because...of course it did. Gengar honestly did all it could, and Pikachu was Peakachu. The rat immediately stepped in and started dominating, completely destroying the Gastrodon that replaced her own trusty Lucario specifically for this match (because she forgot to put Ground type moves on her Garchomp, and this was apparently easier). It even got to demonstrate Counter Shield, and was only taken down thanks to a sneak attack from Spiritomb. The battle up until here was good and made sense, but then Dracovish shows up and everything falls apart. Much like the games, it's pure brute force with zero strategy or smart play involved; you either lose, or you just mash 'Fishious Rend' till you win. It even outright dodges the recall, yet it ends up beating Roserade and bringing Milotic in range for Sirfetch'd because...well, of course it did. All I have to say is, I really wish this thing was the one that got fodderized in the first battle rather than Dragonite; at least Ash uses Dragon Dance in some interesting ways. Anyway, after it goes down Sirfetch'd shows up and does decently well, fainting like a valiant knight. Then Lucario shows up, and it tanks hit after hit after hit because of Cynthia's poor strategizing in the last half, uses its forced 'aura dog big ball', has a fistfight with a Garchomp that has nothing to use against it, and ends up winning thanks to it.

When Ash went into shock and TR started cheering loudly, I assume they wanted the viewer to feel the same, or at least feel like Ash had some 'great victory' here. But honestly, it felt rather empty. Not only did the victory feel unearned because of how much Ash relied on Cynthia's mid-battle lobotomy, seeing him win without his Sinnoh team felt so utterly soulless. The fact that his other Pokémon, the one who should've been in that battle, were just sitting around a TV and cheering was insulting beyond belief. The whole time Lucario was fighting, I kept thinking how much cooler it would've been if Infernape was out there instead. Maybe Torterra could've redeemed itself for all its post-evolution losses. Maybe we could've seen a mid-battle evolution for Buizel.

Not to mention, this insistence on Ash using only his JN team meant Cynthia was forced to ditch her own Lucario; a Pokémon that's always shown to be on her team and is even part of her design motif. What the hell OLM?

In the end, Ash vs Cynthia was nothing special; just another battle that failed to live up to the hype.

Let’s be honest now, she got that lobotomy before the fight even began. That garbage moveset on chomp more than proves it.

How else can anyone, let alone a champion, be so absolutely braindead and not give their ace a STAB move that half of ash’s team is weak to. The half that that has gimmick even, and so the half that would likely have a major effect on the battle and could swing the odds. It’s not even a matter of not being able to forsee what happens, since just one ground move amongst her 3 dragon move that doesn’t really provide any kind of different situational coverage, would cover whichever of the 3 stays to the end.

I also don’t agree with a lot of cynthia’s strategies in this fight, but at the very least SOME arguments could be made. The moveset on chomp tho? Absolute idiocy and made cynthia a joke.
 
What's this about Cynthia getting a lobotomy.

Cynthia: Oh no, my only Ground-type move Pokemon Gastrodon got taken down.
Ash: Uh, don't you have Garchomp as anot-?
Cynthia: My only Ground-type move Pokemon Gastrodon got taken down.
Like hey, Shirona-san, don't you have a Lucario of your own?
Makes one wonder why the hell this Cynthia has those Lucario decs on her head anyway, right.
 

GarchompTheAssassin

Water starter fan
With the finale of the series starting, I decided to rewatch the Masters 8 to get a fresh perspective. Not really much to say about the lackluster Steven battle, but there's a lot to say about this fight; one that was built up in Sinnoh years ago and was delivered with...mixed results.

First, Cynthia: During the first half of the battle, you really get to see why she's such a feared and respected trainer. Taking advantage of switches to disorient her opponent, using a bag of dirty tricks with Spiritomb, setting up hazards early, surprising her opponent with her Pokémon's abilities, even taking down Ash's most powerful Pokémon with a cheap Destiny Bond...the first half of the match did a great job at showing not only her Pokémon's strength, but also a tactical mind that seemed to vastly outstrip her opponent. But of course, this wasn't her fight to win, and the second half makes that clear.

After such an amazing showing, I really didn't get why she saw Ash's pure Fighting type Pokémon and didn't toss out her Fairy/Flying that would double-resist its best move. Not to mention, her Togekiss clearly had the advantage in reach, being a Special Attacker and both its typings having a clear advantage on Sirfetch'd. Instead, she first let her Milotic face an entirely avoidable defeat, then she sent out her Garchomp to get damaged for...well, no real reason except to find an excuse to Dynamax her Togekiss later on in the fight.

Speaking of Togekiss, why was this thing saved for Ash's Steel-type Pokémon? Did she forget Togekiss is a FAIRY type, as in a Pokémon who'd take super-effective damage from at least one of its moves? Plus, did she also forget that both of Lucario's non-Hidden abilities make it a bad idea to use a 'mon that causes flinches? Like hey, Shirona-san, don't you have a Lucario of your own? You should know this stuff! Using Togekiss here was a complete waste of a great Pokémon, and she realistically should've saved Garchomp for the final fight. Then again, it wouldn't make a difference because her GROUND type Dragon didn't have a single Ground move. Like...c'mon.

Anyway, on to Ash's side. Dragonite jobs pretty easily without achieving anything of note, because...of course it did. Gengar honestly did all it could, and Pikachu was Peakachu. The rat immediately stepped in and started dominating, completely destroying the Gastrodon that replaced her own trusty Lucario specifically for this match (because she forgot to put Ground type moves on her Garchomp, and this was apparently easier). It even got to demonstrate Counter Shield, and was only taken down thanks to a sneak attack from Spiritomb. The battle up until here was good and made sense, but then Dracovish shows up and everything falls apart. Much like the games, it's pure brute force with zero strategy or smart play involved; you either lose, or you just mash 'Fishious Rend' till you win. It even outright dodges the recall, yet it ends up beating Roserade and bringing Milotic in range for Sirfetch'd because...well, of course it did. All I have to say is, I really wish this thing was the one that got fodderized in the first battle rather than Dragonite; at least Ash uses Dragon Dance in some interesting ways. Anyway, after it goes down Sirfetch'd shows up and does decently well, fainting like a valiant knight. Then Lucario shows up, and it tanks hit after hit after hit because of Cynthia's poor strategizing in the last half, uses its forced 'aura dog big ball', has a fistfight with a Garchomp that has nothing to use against it, and ends up winning thanks to it.

When Ash went into shock and TR started cheering loudly, I assume they wanted the viewer to feel the same, or at least feel like Ash had some 'great victory' here. But honestly, it felt rather empty. Not only did the victory feel unearned because of how much Ash relied on Cynthia's mid-battle lobotomy, seeing him win without his Sinnoh team felt so utterly soulless. The fact that his other Pokémon, the one who should've been in that battle, were just sitting around a TV and cheering was insulting beyond belief. The whole time Lucario was fighting, I kept thinking how much cooler it would've been if Infernape was out there instead. Maybe Torterra could've redeemed itself for all its post-evolution losses. Maybe we could've seen a mid-battle evolution for Buizel.

Not to mention, this insistence on Ash using only his JN team meant Cynthia was forced to ditch her own Lucario; a Pokémon that's always shown to be on her team and is even part of her design motif. What the hell OLM?

In the end, Ash vs Cynthia was nothing special; just another battle that failed to live up to the hype.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Cynthia's IQ drop makes this battle almost unrewatchable.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
I see everyone wants to turn against this battle so I just wanna say “Mid battle lobotomy”? jeeze you gotta be kidding me with that, just because Ash turned that battle around in his favor, that doesn’t mean Cynthia stop WASNT on top of things, hell using dynamax Togekiss strategically instead of trying to mega Garchomp brute force her way through everything.

Even the moveset thing which is dumb doesn’t actually effect the narrative of Garchomp being all powerful and unstoppable, it doesn’t reflect on Cynthia’s own competence

And the “why isn’t Ash using reserves blah blah” isn’t even an actual criticism of the actual battle itself.

It’s a good battle, don’t agree with most of these criticisms regarding Cynthia’s own competence, Ash just managed to swing things back in his favor after being on the back foot the first half, but I guess “Ash doing well” directly correlates to “Cynthia being stupid” for some reason
 
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