The Shocking Zygarde VS Zygarde! The Breaking World!! (936)

[Frozocrone]

Most likely it was done on cartoon network's part, either out of spite that it's moving to Disney xd seeing as how they had no issue with it in the last episode or the supposed religious symbolisim. Honestly that position did'nt really look like a crucifiction to me anyway. Moving on from that I did enjoy this episode very much. Sarah natchomony's acting is just awesome here and Alain's break down just made me really sad for him.

Probably out of spite, because CN showed the 'Crucifix' position on XYZ39. Inconsistency at it's finest!

Decent episode. Would have preferred more from Lysandre's story but overall decent.

 

[Vipsoccermaster]

Or maybe they wanted to tone it down a bit.

Great episode all around, though. And yes, learning more about Lysandre on his backstory would have been nice.

 

[Daniel31]

Alain's break down just made me really sad for him.

It was much needed at this point. You would've also thought that then Lysander was attempting to control Ash as well that that would've set Alain off even more and he'd be the one to free Ash from those bonds. Even back when this episode first came out in Japan, I was always wondering how Ash and he Pokémon was going to break free, if someone was going to help him or what, but using Ash-Greninja was ok I guess.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

How did Alain get up there where Ash was so fast, by the way.

 

[Daniel31]

How did Alain get up there where Ash was so fast, by the way.

That's something a lot of people were wondering about lol, including myself. Maybe that should go in the "Moments in the Anime that Don't Make Sense" thread.

 

[DS0308]

How did Alain get up there where Ash was so fast, by the way.

The powers of friendship.

Or maybe he has a soft spot for hiking? *shrugs*

You know I'll give the dub some credit with the voice acting in this episode, I loved Lysandre's mini-rage before he sent out Gyarados and Pyroar, he nailed that.

But they replaced VS Team Flare with some really boring piece, and also had some fairly questionable music selections in other places. Standard, I suppose. The reanimating of those scenes was kind of awkward to me, it's hard not to compare it to the original. There was actual proper tension there for me because of the circumstances, and Ash breaking out was more down to him being a badass than it looking like Pikachu snapped him out of it.

 

[Soaring Pikachu]

Lysandre is a disgruntled charity worker, it all makes sense now.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Lysandre is a disgruntled charity worker, it all makes sense now.

All of this could've been averted if he hadn't picked a random, really mysteriously wrecked up city with super desperate people who didn't even think about moving away.

 

[Orton155]

The plot thickens with two Zygarde under Team Flare's control. There are a few moments that stand out; Bonnie's anguish when Zygarde was taken control over was really harsh and Ash breaking out of his shackles using the bond phenomenon was quite a sight but what stood out was...Where did Team Rocket all of a sudden find a helicopter? In all seriousness, it was the end with Ash telling Lysandre how wrong he was and the really battle will now ensue (or four mini battles as the episode would have it).

This arc is getting better, onto the next one!

 

[OshyHikari]

So the dub changed it up when Lysander is trying to get the bond phenomona from Ash with those red laser lights. In the sub when Ash gets zapped, he was screaming in pain and in the dub, he doesn't...instead he looks like he was sick or on drugs lol fading away from reality. I really don't understand why they changed it.

It was mainly due to religious reasons, since in the Japanese version Ash was in a pose resembling Jesus when he was crucified.

 

[Water_Dragon trainer]

This was a pretty great episode. Looking forward to seeing what happens next.

 

[Pikachu52]

The mini-action film continues. It's quite similar to the last episode in that it's quite a bit of action without a huge amount of plot development.

It's interesting to see Ash play a very heroic role from making the bold statement "I love this world and you won't destroy it" to battling Lysandre alongside Alain. Is this the first time Ash has battled an evil team boss in the main series - I think it is. To some degree it's a bit of cliché - A sort of "Woobie destroyer of worlds" plot where the hero is forced to combat a villain intent on destruction for a moral purpose out of a love for an imperfect status quo. Although that trope is used a fair bit in Anime and Manga it's also the plot of the games so it makes sense to include it here. That being said it was kind of glossed - Lysander's explanations for his desire to use the Ultimate Weapon are slightly more fleshed out in the games. What it did do, and it was great in this sense, is bring out Ash's fundamentally good natured and caring personality - he fought against Lysandre because he hates others suffering.

Alain on the other hand was poorly portrayed. His whole dramatic "you lied to me" scene is difficult to accept given how involved with Lysandre he was and the extent to which he helped him. Alain should not get away with actions like attacking Z2 simply because he thought he was helping Marin's comatose Chespie. At best that was wilful blindness. If I have one criticism of Ash here it's that he let him off too easily - dismissing his involvement with Lysandre as "your past" and saying that he believes in him as the "person I know." Here's the thing though. Ash doesn't know Alain particularly. They had two battles together prior to the league and then spoke to each other during the league, and yet Ash is talking about him as if he's a lover or a close friend whom he's know for a while. Alain's involvement with Lysandre isn't really his past either - He helped capture Z2 after battling Ash for the first time and has been involved with Team Flare throughout the entire period of time the two boys have known each other.

Lysandre - as I said before had his motives badly fleshed out. And what's with this "the more I helped them the more they became entitled" - that's not the plot of a Pokémon villain. That's a GOP senator trying to justify their bill to gut welfare programs on CNN. It's also inconsistent with the games. In X and Y Lysandre justifies the need to kill everyone not in Team Flare as being necessary because of dwindling resources.

And what's with Clembot. Heliolisk is Clemont's Pokémon and with Clemont present he should be giving Heliolisk the commands.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

The mini-action film continues. It's quite similar to the last episode in that it's quite a bit of action without a huge amount of plot development.

It's interesting to see Ash play a very heroic role from making the bold statement "I love this world and you won't destroy it" to battling Lysandre alongside Alain. Is this the first time Ash has battled an evil team boss in the main series - I think it is. To some degree it's a bit of cliché - A sort of "Woobie destroyer of worlds" plot where the hero is forced to combat a villain intent on destruction for a moral purpose out of a love for an imperfect status quo. Although that trope is used a fair bit in Anime and Manga it's also the plot of the games so it makes sense to include it here. That being said it was kind of glossed - Lysander's explanations for his desire to use the Ultimate Weapon are slightly more fleshed out in the games. What it did do, and it was great in this sense, is bring out Ash's fundamentally good natured and caring personality - he fought against Lysandre because he hates others suffering.

Alain on the other hand was poorly portrayed. His whole dramatic "you lied to me" scene is difficult to accept given how involved with Lysandre he was and the extent to which he helped him. Alain should not get away with actions like attacking Z2 simply because he thought he was helping Marin's comatose Chespie. At best that was wilful blindness. If I have one criticism of Ash here it's that he let him off too easily - dismissing his involvement with Lysandre as "your past" and saying that he believes in him as the "person I know." Here's the thing though. Ash doesn't know Alain particularly. They had two battles together prior to the league and then spoke to each other during the league, and yet Ash is talking about him as if he's a lover or a close friend whom he's know for a while. Alain's involvement with Lysandre isn't really his past either - He helped capture Z2 after battling Ash for the first time and has been involved with Team Flare throughout the entire period of time the two boys have known each other.

Lysandre - as I said before had his motives badly fleshed out. And what's with this "the more I helped them the more they became entitled" - that's not the plot of a Pokémon villain. That's a GOP senator trying to justify their bill to gut welfare programs on CNN. It's also inconsistent with the games. In X and Y Lysandre justifies the need to kill everyone not in Team Flare as being necessary because of dwindling resources.

And what's with Clembot. Heliolisk is Clemont's Pokémon and with Clemont present he should be giving Heliolisk the commands.

1) You're awesome and I bet you have many friends in parties.

2) I couldn't agree more with all of this. It still bugs me how easily Alain got pardoned. Apparently, it's all good when you absolutely have no idea what was going on or even doubted your superior once.

 

[Satomine Night]

Alain on the other hand was poorly portrayed. His whole dramatic "you lied to me" scene is difficult to accept given how involved with Lysandre he was and the extent to which he helped him. Alain should not get away with actions like attacking Z2 simply because he thought he was helping Marin's comatose Chespie. At best that was wilful blindness. If I have one criticism of Ash here it's that he let him off too easily - dismissing his involvement with Lysandre as "your past" and saying that he believes in him as the "person I know." Here's the thing though. Ash doesn't know Alain particularly. They had two battles together prior to the league and then spoke to each other during the league, and yet Ash is talking about him as if he's a lover or a close friend whom he's know for a while. Alain's involvement with Lysandre isn't really his past either - He helped capture Z2 after battling Ash for the first time and has been involved with Team Flare throughout the entire period of time the two boys have known each other.

You make a good point. There is no way Alain could have been that involved in Lysandre's plans and not get some inkling of what the man was up to. Even if he was that blinded by his desire to help Chespie, that still doesn't excuse his actions. At least he himself recognized that and was unable to forgive himself for what he did. However, Ash and Mairin in particular shouldn't have forgiven Alain so easily.

You are also right that Ash's "the person I know" speech did fall a little flat, since Ash barely knows Alain at all. For the most part, their interactions were limited to the battlefield. Ash might have gotten a sense of Alain's passion and strength, but that doesn't tell him much about the man behind the Mega Charizard X. Alain stood there and did nothing while the Team Flare admins kidnapped Ash. He did nothing to help Ash when he was strung up on Prism Tower.

 

[Pikachu52]

The other thing that didn't sit quite right with me in this episode is the character's relation to Squishy. Throughout the XYZ series Squishy interacts very little with the other cast. It's never showed a huge amount of either emotion or affection towards anyone else other than the dream in which it spoke to Pikachu and Meowth. Neither has it been with them for a particularly long period of time - just one series. And yet when Lysandre says "the other Zygarde will join us" Ash gives the confident reply "Squishy would never do that" as if he knew the legendary as well as he does Pikachu. Worse Bonnie, who plays with it like a doll, is suddenly telling everyone that she can sense it's in trouble. The gap between Squishy's lack of affection and Bonnie and the other's doting creates what I've referred to as a false notion of friendship. Ash, Bonnie and the gang act like Squishy's an important friend but Squishy does little to reciprocate.

If this portrayal is intentional then it's unclear why - is Bonnie going to get a "I'm not really that into you" speech from Squishy at the end. If it's not it's a deficit in the writting of Squishy's character and makes the portrayal that that the Zygarde core is Bonnie's friend feel forced. It need not be that way. Legendaries have had clearer interactions with main characters before. Mewtwo, Hooper and Lucario both spoke english and had more obvious interactions with the other cast. Mew played with Pikachu and show obvious signs of enjoying his company. Squishy sits in Bonnie's bag and occasionally gets sung an irritating song consisting of childish lyrics delivered in an off key voice

 

[Soniman]

The other thing that didn't sit quite right with me in this episode is the character's relation to Squishy. Throughout the XYZ series Squishy interacts very little with the other cast. It's never showed a huge amount of either emotion or affection towards anyone else other than the dream in which it spoke to Pikachu and Meowth. Neither has it been with them for a particularly long period of time - just one series. And yet when Lysandre says "the other Zygarde will join us" Ash gives the confident reply "Squishy would never do that" as if he knew the legendary as well as he does Pikachu. Worse Bonnie, who plays with it like a doll, is suddenly telling everyone that she can sense it's in trouble. The gap between Squishy's lack of affection and Bonnie and the other's doting creates what I've referred to as a false notion of friendship. Ash, Bonnie and the gang act like Squishy's an important friend but Squishy does little to reciprocate.

If this portrayal is intentional then it's unclear why - is Bonnie going to get a "I'm not really that into you" speech from Squishy at the end. If it's not it's a deficit in the writting of Squishy's character and makes the portrayal that that the Zygarde core is Bonnie's friend feel forced. It need not be that way. Legendaries have had clearer interactions with main characters before. Mewtwo, Hooper and Lucario both spoke english and had more obvious interactions with the other cast. Mew played with Pikachu and show obvious signs of enjoying his company. Squishy sits in Bonnie's bag and occasionally gets sung an irritating song consisting of childish lyrics delivered in an off key voice

Couldn't disagree more honestly.

I get what you're saying but you act like like there wasn't plenty of instances of scenes clearly focusing on Puni observing and acknowledging the exploits of the XY gang throughout XYZ and deciding their worth it, his own personal connection with Bonnie was fleshed out in the first episode of XYZ, the cave episode, the episode where Puni comes back after separating, and the many times where they had bonding moments through Bonnie's singing, it's really hard to believe that their friendship wasn't real or meant anything

 

[Pikachu52]

Couldn't disagree more honestly.

I get what you're saying but you act like like there wasn't plenty of instances of scenes clearly focusing on Puni observing and acknowledging the exploits of the XY gang throughout XYZ and deciding their worth it, his own personal connection with Bonnie was fleshed out in the first episode of XYZ, the cave episode, the episode where Puni comes back after separating, and the many times where they had bonding moments through Bonnie's singing, it's really hard to believe that their friendship wasn't real or meant anything

I think the anime probably is trying to demonstrate that there is a bond between Bonnie and Squishy, but apart from the episode where it comes back after separating it doesn't show enough reciprocation of her feelings. At least not in the way that Pikachu or Oshawott did to Ash, or Togepi to Misty, Jiarachi to Max or even Mew to Pikachu. In the first episode and the cave episode it runs off twice and when it justifies it's desire to go back to Bonnie to the other core it says it's wish is to study humans rather than simply their my friends. The one sidedness of the interaction makes it feel like Bonnie and the rest of the gang have appointed themselves as friends and assumed it's motives rather than genuinely understood or bonded with it.

 

[Cloud5001]

I think the anime probably is trying to demonstrate that there is a bond between Bonnie and Squishy, but apart from the episode where it comes back after separating it doesn't show enough reciprocation of her feelings. At least not in the way that Pikachu or Oshawott did to Ash, or Togepi to Misty, Jiarachi to Max or even Mew to Pikachu. In the first episode and the cave episode it runs off twice and when it justifies it's desire to go back to Bonnie to the other core it says it's wish is to study humans rather than simply their my friends. The one sidedness of the interaction makes it feel like Bonnie and the rest of the gang have appointed themselves as friends and assumed it's motives rather than genuinely understood or bonded with it.

Your forgetting Squishy helped the others to find Ash showing he cared about them. He can't say it, but if he hated all the times Bonnie sang to him he could simply just bounce away from her for a bit. The bond between those two is geniune and it definetly does not feel forced or rushed. It would be forced if Squishy came in right before the Kalos leauge where everything is close to wrapping up. We got him right at the start of XYZ and allowed the charachters to grow attached to him, it's also shown in the Volcanion movie when Squishy protects Pikachu from an attack.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Your forgetting Squishy helped the others to find Ash showing he cared about them. He can't say it, but if he hated all the times Bonnie sang to him he could simply just bounce away from her for a bit. The bond between those two is geniune and it definetly does not feel forced or rushed. It would be forced if Squishy came in right before the Kalos leauge where everything is close to wrapping up. We got him right at the start of XYZ and allowed the charachters to grow attached to him, it's also shown in the Volcanion movie when Squishy protects Pikachu from an attack.

It still doesn't help it's forced. It doesn't help Bonnie forced her cuteness proximity on him and he has been using them as shields to protect himself from TF.

Squishy got, what, two episodes of focus before the Armageddon happened? Again, this show likes to emphasize the bond between people, but really, the only justified bonds are people and their aces. Even when the bond has been established, it becomes forgotten in favor of constant battling.

 

[Soniman]

It still doesn't help it's forced. It doesn't help Bonnie forced her cuteness proximity on him and he has been using them as shields to protect himself from TF.

Squishy got, what, two episodes of focus before the Armageddon happened? Again, this show likes to emphasize the bond between people, but really, the only justified bonds are people and their aces. Even when the bond has been established, it becomes forgotten in favor of constant battling.

Mmm yes Bonnie the biggest battler in the show.

I really don't see how it's forced after over a year of no one taking issue with it then suddenly everything about Bonnie and Puni's relationship was fake and nothing about it was real or genuine , seems like one hell of a reach to me

Also you haven't been watching this show long enough if you honestly try to say battling and bonding are mutually exclusive