• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

The viability of stall, and what will dominate the 5th Gen

Super Nerd 7997

Crazy Plant Guy
Umbreon might see an increase in usage as a special tank, because it's got super effective STAB on the chandelier, and it's immune to Psycho Shock, so it doesn't have to worry about special sweepers hitting it from the physical side...
 
Shanderaa isn't trapping Blissey if it runs Shadow Ball nor is it taking out Chansey if even a single layer of Toxic Spikes are down and a Sandstorm is blowing. Shanderaa can't set up a Sub and +6 CMs under either situation as well. Simply put, don't play retarded and you can likely avoid getting swept.

Hippowdon doesn't give a **** about Shanderaa as a Smogon standard Hippo takes just 45.7% - 53.8% from Scarf HP Ice. Specially Defensive Hippo takes about 40% tops.

Forretress used Shed Shell. Its Super effective! Not to mention Payback and Earthquake hits it hard. Chansey / Blissey's new Wish mechanic lets Forretress be healed literally 90% by a 4 HP Chansey Wish. 100% if Chansey runs any HP EVs.

Porygon 2 will always break a Sub with Discharge and with its new ability that gives it a power boost if it goes second it can easily 2HKO with Thunderbolt (or Discharge after rocks). Its not impossible to imagine it running HP Ground as well.

Nattorei admittedly dies horribly unless it runs Shed Shell. If its any consolation Gyro Ball 2HKOs after rocks. As with Forretress Nattorei GREATLY benefits from Wish's upgrade. It heals even more HP than Forretress! 91% per Wish means Leftovers aren't as needed.

Scarf Shanderaa barely 2HKOs 4 Special Defense Impish Dusclops. Specially Defensive Dusclops can avoid a 2HKO entirely. CM Dusclops can easily stall out Shadow Ball, barring a crit.

Specially Defensive Heatran survives HP Ground and shrugs off all of his other moves. Earth Power devastates Shanderaa back.

Gyarados takes 35.9% - 42.2% from Shadow Ball and easily OHKOs back.

Specially Defensive TTar takes minimal damage from even HP Fighting.

Skarmory may start to run Shed Shell again. Its guaranteed 100% healing from a Wish passed from Chansey though.

Celebi is kinda ****ed. Its guaranteed to survive a Shadow Ball even without Special Defense EVs. Shanderaa won't like an Earth Power or Thunder Wave in retaliation.

Mamanbou (Luvdisc "evo") laughs at its hits, taking just 34.4% - 40.8% from Scarf Shadow Ball assuming you run max Special Defense (4 HP). Waterfall or Light Screen will put Shanderaa in its place.

Munchlax takes absolutely nothing from any of his hits. Even HP Fighting is pathetic.

Desukan (Coffin Ghost) and Dusknoir take heavy hits from Shadow Ball, but will both survive with the right investment and can KO with the appropriate moves. IMO both Pokemon are garbage anyway and have no place on stall.

Iwaparesu (Hermit Crab) and Shuckle both take nothing from even Overheat if the sand is blowing. Shuckle loses to a Sub CMer eventually but Iwaparesu has the offenses to crack it.

Weezing sucks, so if you use it you deserve to lose.

Suicune, Vaporeon , Milotic, Tentacruel, Swampert, Slowbro and most 5th gen bulky waters will shrug off a single unboosted hit and vivisect Shanderaa back with STAB Surf.

Umbreon is terrible, but if theres anything it won't lose to its Shanderaa. Same deal with Spiritomb.

The Rotom forms are no longer part Ghost. That alone gives them a boost in reliability.

Meloetta (Singer music note) is immune to Shadow Ball and not weak to any other hit. Overheat won't even pass 45%.

Zuruzukin (Fighting / Dark lizard) has so much defense that only Overheat can threaten him and only if hes below 60%.

Shinpora is too badass to get killed by this ***.



These are all the marginably defensive Pokemon that MIGHT be used defensively. I don't see Shanderaa being any worse to stall than Dugtrio is. Very few stall Pokemon have to bend over backwards to beat it and its only going to get a kill by coming in on something at very low HP. Also keep in mind the Scarfer is probably the only Shanderaa worth using as Sub CM isn't doing ANYTHING useful against teams that aren't stall. Not to mention its typing means nearly every offensive and even defensive threat can break its Subs.
 

Aerophoenix

The Great Speculator
So basically Shanderaa isn't as much of a threat as half the people here think it to be.

But we're not just worrying about the little Chandelier. We need to consider other new (and old) offensive threats. I suppose right now that's our priority.
 
So basically Shanderaa isn't as much of a threat as half the people here think it to be.

Not necessarily true; remember that it can still outspeed most offensive pokemon as well, who can't take hits like the listed defensive ones can. So while it may have been overhyped by some as a stallbreaker, it still looks like the number one threat this gen (as of now at least) because of its ability to KO sweepers as well.
 
Its a better Dugtrio, thats all. Dugtrio could devastate tons of things in 4th gen but even so no one really used it. Why? Because it was frail and had trouble killing things that weren't hit Super Effective by its moves. Dugtrio CB Earthquake actually hits harder than Scarf Shanderaa Shadow Ball.

I don't see it being a huge problem for stall but I can't say much about offense simply because I don't play it nor do I care.
 
So basically Shanderaa isn't as much of a threat as half the people here think it to be.

But we're not just worrying about the little Chandelier. We need to consider other new (and old) offensive threats. I suppose right now that's our priority.

Well, he'll still be a top tier threat. But as you can se from blue Harvest's (extensive) post, there are many options to counter him. And these are just for stall teams. Offensive momentum should be enough to keep Shanderaa from sweeping easily, and priority will kill it, especially Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet. I can't see him doing much to Rain teams, which I believe will be one of the most common teams around.
 

Ungoliath

Not a GenWunner
Oh, so that's gimmicky. Well, then yes. It will have little purpose after that :p

And I was going to say some things about Mismagius, but due my lack of knowledge on competitive tiers and uses over time, I will hold myself.
 

Luxrayess

Sound(?) asleep...
I just checked Movepools and base HP stats to check who would potentially be the best Wishers with the new mechanics. Aside from the elusive "WishBliss" (which was only available from a NYPC event! Yikes!), the top three Wishers based solely on HP stats alone would be:
*Mamanbou
*Wigglytuff (yes, Wigglytuff! -._-.)
*Vaporeon

Any thoughts on this?
 

Luxrayess

Sound(?) asleep...
Vaporeon + Hydration + Wish + Rain Based Team= Pure awesomeness for stall. <3

Mamanbou says hello. It also has Hydration and has more Support moves including, but not limited to, Wish, Wide Guard and Heal Beam (think Double & Triple Battles).

And it has more base HP and Defense (but not Sp.Defense, unfortunately) than Vappy.
 

windsong

WEST SIDE
Stall won't be that viable until the meta settles down and then random **** threats are banned.

Then it'll bounce back up and kill everything <3
 

Ruben Claessen

Tactic Researcher
Hahakurimo#542
That pokemon my look like nothing but WOW!
I found something REAL usefell on that pokemon its worth checking out.
 

Aerophoenix

The Great Speculator
Hahakurimo#542
That pokemon my look like nothing but WOW!
I found something REAL usefell on that pokemon its worth checking out.
With an okay movepool ... and stats that are just piss not (with over 135's floating around like candy) this thing won't even see OU in its future.
 

Luxrayess

Sound(?) asleep...
I just checked Movepools and base HP stats to check who would potentially be the best Wishers with the new mechanics. Aside from the elusive "WishBliss" (which was only available from a NYPC event! Yikes!), the top three Wishers based solely on HP stats alone would be:
*Mamanbou
*Wigglytuff (yes, Wigglytuff! -._-.)
*Vaporeon

Any thoughts on this?

Bumping this in hopes of some response...

I believe Blue Harvest has taken a liking to Mamanbou if I remember right...
 
Bumping this in hopes of some response...

I believe Blue Harvest has taken a liking to Mamanbou if I remember right...

Blissey will be useful just because of the massive amounts of HP that it will be able to pass. Vaporeon and Mamanbou will be useful for their Water typing and the ability to switch into certain attacks. I personally think that they will both have different uses. Mamanbou has more physical bulk and HP, but that big SpD drop hurts. And it doesn't possess the raw power to hit stuff like Vaporeon does. My thoughts.

And did anyone else initially think that Mamanbou was a new form for Luvdisc?
 
I'm still convinced its a Luvdisc evo. I'm in denial.

If you max Luvdisc evo's Special Defense it actually takes Special hits quite well. I had a spread before that I forgot but its similar to Vaporeon's bulk IIRC.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
A minor correction: Hahakomori's base stat total is 491, and the average overall for fully-evolved Pokémon is 497.2. So while it's below average, it isn't well below average.
 
A minor correction: Hahakomori's base stat total is 491, and the average overall for fully-evolved Pokémon is 497.2. So while it's below average, it isn't well below average.

I was mainly referring to OU standards there. Not to mention its individual stats just aren't up to par.75/80/70 defenses don't go very far, especially with the typing it has. 92 Speed is much too slow for it to stand out. 103 Attack is its best stat, though sadly it won't be sweeping teams unless the opponent is a total idiot. Most physcial sweepers have somewhere between 110 and 135. This gen there are some with even higher Attack stats, so OU standards will definately be more demanding.
 
Top