• We're currently experiencing a minor issue with our email system preventing emails for new registrations and verifications going out. We're currently working to fix this
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Things that grind your gears!

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
I'm not about to get into a huge debate on Smogon's behalf as I've become disillusioned with their tiering policies and general conduct myself but it's no secret that I am (or was) an active Smogon user so I suppose I'll explain why I was attracted to Smogon in the first place, and why I have, for the most part, left. I'm not even really sure this post belongs here as it does kind of straddle the line of off-topic and I know Smogon is kind of perceived as a "competitor" to Serebii, even though they really aren't anymore, so if the moderators don't feel it's appropriate feel free to delete it. However, it does seem to be a topic of discussion at the moment and I'd like to offer a different perspective than one you'd typically get from either the "pro-Smogon" or "anti-Smogon" crowd.
I read the whole thing, and honestly, that is a very insightful, passionate essay on how you feel about it. I've questioned about the divergent evolution between Smogon at least since I started participating in VGCs, and Generation VIII seems to be where it's diverged far enough that I find myself scratching my head sometimes about why some people question Game Freak's choices for certain aspects of competitive play when they were never meant for the Smogon rules to begin with. For the record, I began with Pokémon Battle Revolution, whose online play was more or less identical to the main games' Casual Battles play today. As a result, THAT was my foundation, and it's why I'm more comfortable with picking my 3 or 4 Pokémon during Team Preview. (I started playing way back in Generation I, but there was no online play at that point, and I just played against the other kids interested in challenging me. At least until one of them threw at me a Nidoking whose stats were all 1,023.)

Note that I don't inherently dislike Smogon. What I dislike is that, as I mentioned, discussions about competitive Pokémon battling outside of Smogon seem to assume Smogon rules, which don't necessarily work if the person taking that advice intends to use it in the actual games. That's what grinds my gears--they are being given bad advice without either side even knowing it, and it's hard to find good advice on the matter. Making it more impenetrable is that there is a lot of advice that's good for both, but it takes an experienced eye to know what isn't. The result is people being told to use, say, Skarmory with Stealth Rock, Body Press, Whirlwind, and Roost and them taking it into Sword and Shield Ranked double battles, not realizing this is not what this advice was meant for. They get crushed left and right before they even reach Rank 3 and have no idea what they're doing wrong or why their opponents, who aren't using this advice, are always at an advantage.

YouTube seems to be the one place at the moment where there's a lot of advice pertaining to the Ranked formats in the official games (with double battling rules being identical to those of VGCs, albeit best 1 of 1 rather than 2 of 3), and predictably, there is a rift between Smogon and the PokéTubers who give that advice, even though there shouldn't be one because they're talking about what works under different sets of rules.

If there is a general decline for Smogon, I haven't really seen it, considering the vocalness of competitive Pokémon discussion outside of the site making it seem like it's something everybody follows. There is an almost religious reverence by some people of the site, not all of whom are actual members or participants, which I find a bit baffling.

For the record, I think the general ban by Game Freak on Mythical Pokémon is because they're limited in availability. They aren't always obtainable, so Game Freak doesn't allow them in most official formats because they likely consider it unfair against those who missed their chances to get them, whereas everything else is always available. I see it as similar to modern-day fighting game tournaments of Marvel vs. Capcom 3 and the Ultimate version thereof, which ban Jill Valentine and Shuma-Gorath because they were limited-time characters--they were available only as DLC, which is no longer obtainable. Consequently, those two characters were banned because people who got into playing MvC3 after they were obtainable would be at a disadvantage against those who did, as they can neither use them nor practice against them. Pokémon Showdown doesn't need to worry about that because the Mythical Pokémon can be generated out of thin air whenever the player wants.
 
Last edited:

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
For the record, I think the general ban by Game Freak on Mythical Pokémon is because they're limited in availability. They aren't always obtainable, so Game Freak doesn't allow them in most official formats because they likely consider it unfair against those who missed their chances to get them, whereas everything else is always available.
I think this is true. Mythicals don't even always get released in every region, some regions never get mythicals at all. Events are still an issue even outside of mythicals sometimes though, in the later Alola VGC series Multiscale Lugia was limited to the wind-event Lugia which was only released in some Asian regions, and Multiscale is just by far Lugia's best ability, especially in a 4v4 doubles setting where PP stalling isn't really a thing. I do have a Multiscale Lugia myself, but it's illegal for VGC as it's a Crystal transfer (it also doesn't have access to Hurricane, which the wind Lugia had, and which is viable over Aeroblast if also running Kyogre). I only own Marshadow, Magearna, Celebi (Crystal transfer), and Zeraora as mythicals, and Ash-Greninja if you count it as a mythical form (which GameFreak seems to do for the online battles, but not battle tree). I could still get Deoxys from Omega Ruby, but everything else, like Darkrai, Shaymin, or Victini, is essentially unavailable to me. And while some of them are a bit forgettable in battling capabilities (for instance Celebi) compared to big legendaries, some others like Marshadow, Magearna, and Zeraora are powerful enough that missing out on them would be unfair.

I think the only event-exclusives (aside from shiny exclusives) they do usually allow in online battles are the Ash-hat Pikachu, and that's purely because Ash-hat Pikachu misses out on a lot of Pikachu's better possibilities like Fake Out and Lightningrod. 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt is fun in the story where Refresh boosts grant it a 100% crit rate, but it's not exactly enough to push it into viability online (where it's only a 50% crit), especially with Ash-hat Pikachu lacking boosting options like Charge (egg move), Nasty Plot (Pichu pre-evolution), or even Electric Terrain (egg move), and it not having the Light Ball either when running the Z-crystal.
 
Last edited:

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
What annoys me is that Triples were dropped. I much prefer Triples over Doubles and I long for the day Triples will be the official VGC format.

If that happens, then I might consider playing competitive

(yeah, I'm being petty lol)
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
What annoys me is that Triples were dropped. I much prefer Triples over Doubles and I long for the day Triples will be the official VGC format.

If that happens, then I might consider playing competitive

(yeah, I'm being petty lol)
Triples were fun but once the games went to 3D, it did seem to cause some serious lag in battle.
 

Dragalge

Years
What annoys me is that Triples were dropped. I much prefer Triples over Doubles and I long for the day Triples will be the official VGC format.

If that happens, then I might consider playing competitive

(yeah, I'm being petty lol)
Triple battles failed in the generation it was introduced to the point where it only had one online competition of it compared to Rotations which had more. It didn't help that in Gen 6, it made battles super slow because of the 3DS limitations, especially with Pokemon like Blaziken. No wonder they dropped it in Gen 7 since at that point, hardly anyone cared about it.

Hell, BW1 hardly had either and it took BW2 to have trainers do them more than twice(?). At least in Gen 3 there were plenty of duo trainers scattered in Hoenn which probably helped it being acknowledged more.
 

Redbird

Well-Known Member
Triple battles failed in the generation it was introduced to the point where it only had one online competition of it compared to Rotations which had more. It didn't help that in Gen 6, it made battles super slow because of the 3DS limitations, especially with Pokemon like Blaziken. No wonder they dropped it in Gen 7 since at that point, hardly anyone cared about it.

Hell, BW1 hardly had either and it took BW2 to have trainers do them more than twice(?). At least in Gen 3 there were plenty of duo trainers scattered in Hoenn which probably helped it being acknowledged more.
Which is a pity, as triple battles were far more strategic and interesting than double battles IMO, with Pokémon placement being an actual factor. Your reasons as to why they "failed" sound about right. They were underused in single player (outside of maybe BW2), the battle engine in the 3DS games had difficulty handling so many Pokémon at once, and most players only care about single battles when it comes to competitive.
 
Last edited:

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
It's indeed a pity they ditched triples and rotations. I don't think it's about players only caring about singles though. It's just the developers not investing enough into actually getting players to interact with the format. It's similar to what happened with Battle Royals in gen 7. They never introduced any Battle Royal in any kind of ranked format. No online competitions, no friendly competitions, no simple rated battles, and no PGL support. They're just an option on the free battle spot. And in the story they're introduced fairly early on, you get one introduction battle, and if you then like it and want to try more, well, the opponents are all level 50 and they're legendaries and mega evolutions and so on, while at that point in the story your team basically is a level 22 Brionne, level 21 Trumbeak, level 20 Gumshoes, and so on. So as a player you stand no chance and you just get destroyed. Battle Royals are never mentioned again after that. And it's a darn shame, because the format itself is super interesting and lends itself to quite a couple of pokémon that don't see too much action in the other formats (for instance Starmie, Scizor, and Manectric are amazing in Royals). It's not like the format itself is broken or anything, the mechanics are fairly well balanced as long as you keep Magearna and some overpowered legendaries like Kyogre banned. Had they adjusted the level requirements better to what teams players would have had during the story (like what they did with the introductory battle facilities in Emerald before the Frontier), had some repeated occurences in the story, a proper rated format for it including PGL support, and an online competition or two for it, it could have been so much more popular and actually taken off. But when the initial trigger is missing, there are initially already fewer people playing the format on the free battle spot, and as it already takes four people to even initiate a battle, the game will usually just fail to find sufficient other people to start a royal, which isn't exactly encouraging to keep on trying either. Had it been easier to find battles I would have also tried way more to do Battle Royals on the battle spot.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
Which is a pity, as triple battles were far more strategic and interesting than double battles IMO, with Pokémon placement being an actual factor.
This. I really like the strategy I was using back on Gen 6. It won me a lot of battles online as well as it's given me over 100-win streak on Maison.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Spider-Phoenix said:
What annoys me is that Triples were dropped. I much prefer Triples over Doubles and I long for the day Triples will be the official VGC format.

If that happens, then I might consider playing competitive

(yeah, I'm being petty lol)
I think Game Freak knew that they weren't going to become popular given the general indifference that most fans had towards Triple and Rotation Battles in Gen V. As much as I liked Gen V, I think Game Freak missed the mark with those types of battles, and they were pretty much doomed to never catch on.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
Which is a pity, as triple battles were far more strategic and interesting than double battles IMO, with Pokémon placement being an actual factor. Your reasons as to why they "failed" sound about right. They were underused in single player (outside of maybe BW2), the battle engine in the 3DS games had difficulty handling so many Pokémon at once, and most players only care about single battles when it comes to competitive.
The way I see it, a single-player mode in a multiplayer-heavy game serves the purpose of allowing the player to get used to things and be comfortable enough to play other people. The lack of triple and rotation battles in any Pokémon game that had them made them feel like afterthoughts.

I think Game Freak knew that they weren't going to become popular given the general indifference that most fans had towards Triple and Rotation Battles in Gen V. As much as I liked Gen V, I think Game Freak missed the mark with those types of battles, and they were pretty much doomed to never catch on.
The problem I see, as others have touched upon, is that they were barely used in the story and treated simply as gimmicks rather than new modes of play, and, as Sceptile Leaf Blade pointed out, the same happened with Battle Royal to an even greater extent. (The latter, to me, even felt like they were going to start another subplot, but it was quickly dropped and forgotten about, making it seem like something was planned and canceled somewhere in development. It took an entire generation, arguably more, for people to become accustomed to double battles because, Orre games aside, they were exceedingly rare going through the main game. I know some people who were pretty tripped up in Sword and Shield when one of the Gyms was focused entirely on double battles, as they were so used to playing single battles that they were thrown for a loop.

I did see that most of my opponents were Japanese playing triple battles and rotation battles online though.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
I did see that most of my opponents were Japanese playing triple battles and rotation battles online though.
I never payed attention to this but I recall not meeting much japanese players back then. Might be wrong though
 

KillerDraco

The Enforcer
Staff member
Super Mod
When they do a max raid event with a shiny and give it a 1% or 2% chance of appearing.
Because that's still infinitely higher than base Shiny odds but not so high that they're practically giving them away in 1-2 battles.
 

MrJechgo

Well-Known Member
That some typings sometimes aren't as widely spreaded as they are meant to be...

For instance:
  • In Gen 6, we got the Fairy type for a few Pokémon, such as Water, Electric, Grass and Psychic... but not Fire. Vulpix and Ninetails could have been Fire/Fairy, given that their Alolan versions became Fairy.
  • Fire/Rock didn't get a second specie for 5 Generations (Torkoal to Coalossal).
  • Electric/Dark didn't get a typing until Gen 8.
  • Electric/Ghost hasn't received a second specie since Rotom... when ghosts related to electromagnetic waves are common in fiction.
  • Pure Flying types are apparently very rare until Rookidee.
  • Fire/Steel and Water/Steel are apparently quite rare as well.
  • Normal types should have covered every single dual-type combination possible by now, given are numerous they are, and yet we don't have Bug, Poison (Dunsparce), Rock (Kangaskhan), Ice (Eiscue), Ghost (Komala) and Steel (Bouffalant).
  • The same could be said for Flying, Water and Bug, mostly if their ecosystem is based around avians, fishes and insects, which are numerous in the real world.
 
Last edited:

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
Pokémon Go imposing a limit on 3 raid passes to get the free ones. It's really stupid in my opinion. Let people farm the passes if they want to. Not everytime there'll be a raid people will be willing to do.

Honestly, the only ones that interest me are Shinx raids and those are scarce now (specially with the constant events and Community Day being pretty much Kanto Pandering and Worshipping Adoration Day)
 

WishIhadaManafi5

To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
Staff member
Moderator
Pokémon Go imposing a limit on 3 raid passes to get the free ones. It's really stupid in my opinion. Let people farm the passes if they want to. Not everytime there'll be a raid people will be willing to do.

Honestly, the only ones that interest me are Shinx raids and those are scarce now (specially with the constant events and Community Day being pretty much Kanto Pandering and Worshipping Adoration Day)
Wow, that sucks. Exactly. I hardly find anyone out raiding where I'm at. So 3 people most of the time is wishful thinking on their part.
 

Kansas_Rocks!

Awesomeness Trainer
That some typings sometimes aren't as widely spreaded as they are meant to be...

For instance:
  • In Gen 6, we got the Fairy type for a few Pokémon, such as Water, Electric, Grass and Psychic... but not Fire. Vulpix and Ninetails could have been Fire/Fairy, given that their Alolan versions became Fairy.
  • Fire/Rock didn't get a second specie for 5 Generations (Torkoal to Coalossal).
The rest of your points were neither here nor there for me, but I'd like to say something about these two. First, Torkoal is a pure Fire type. The only Pre Coalossal Fire/Rock is Magcargo.
Second, they had an established way of determining what pre gen 6 Pokemon would gain the Fairy typing. Every Pokemon that gained the fairy type was in the Fairy egg group bar Mr. Mime and the Ralts line, and nearly every Pokemon that didn't gain the Fairy type that were in the Fairy egg group is justified. They are listed below:
  • Pikachu wasn't changed because they wouldn't want to change the series mascot and potentially piss people off. Its electric clones were not changed because it would take attention away from that generation's Pikaclone, Dedenne.
  • I believe the Chansey line wasn't changed for balance reasons.
  • Every dual typed Pokemon in the egg group bar Togepi's two evolutions retained their initial typings, with that line replacing a normal typing that really didn't fit.
  • Shroomish was a no because it evolves into a Grass/Fighting, so it would be an unneeded type.
  • Skitty and Delcatty weren't changed because they have a signature ability, Normalize, that would completely ruin Fairy as a secondary type since in at least one build of Delcatty, it wouldn't be able to gain STAB on its Fairy moves.
  • Castform changes form so often that the Normal type at the beginning makes sense.
  • Snorunt gains a typing through one evolution, so it didn't need to be messed with. Glalie is a little harder to justify, but my justification is that it isn't fairy looking at all and would not go with the early depictions of the type.
  • Phione and Manaphy weren't changed because they didn't touch legendaries or legendary lines.
  • Audino wasn't changed because it was gen 5's Chansey clone.
The only pair I could not truly find a justification for was the Cherubi line.
 
Last edited:

Requiem Aeternam

Dance like an eggplant!
The event dens have now started to appear in my Crown Tundra. I didn’t want to clear all my Crown Tundra dens so they wouldn’t start appearing there but updating my Wild Area News put them there anyway. I knew it was only a matter of time but it’s still disappointing.
 
Top