Thoughts on Ash having finally won a Pokemon League.

[TheNewGuy]

This and that loss to Ritchie as well...

Nah the Kanto loss was 100% excusable. He was a newb who lucked into a lot of his badges and Oak even chastised him for not training during the time after he got the Earth Badge but before the league started. League-only rivals are dumb, sure, but Ash losing in the top 16 in his first league because he was an inexperienced and incompetent trainer, who Charizard didn't respect, is absolutely fine.

Losing to Cameron was unforgivable BS.

 

[Sham]

You can keep praying, but I for one, will make sure the " dying yells " are heard and will continue to be heard

You must feel so proud for doing such a great service to humanity anyway I’m still pressed that his friends didn’t show up idc

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

And Alain didn't care about Mairin, Chespin and Sycamore?

Only because they kept butting in, conflicting his strange thoughts to get stronger. Somehow, he gained an obsession for Mairin.

Not sure why that is a criteria for being edgy.

Isolation equals anything, but in his case, for edgy purposes.

Thankfully, he wasn't emo.

That proves more that he is not that creative when giving Pokémon names than him not being as edgy.

Ouch, dude.

Which was as black as his soul lmao
And, like you said, bonus point if it is black and red.

Then again, overall design.

He didn't discard his friendship with Mairin and Sycamore. He was trying to help Sycamore with his research and Mairin with her Chespin. Alone, yes. But he still cared for them.

I didn't mention Mairin.

Alain used to aid Sycamore with his research until Lysandre came in.

Maybe "discard" was a strong word. I should have said "kept brushing off."

 

[NeoDude-5000]

Best day of my life.

 

[Sham]

Also I don’t know how people started arguing about wether or not who’s “edgier” (lol what?) between Charizard man and Gladion but Gladion is the superior one. Can we talk about however how great Kiawe did in the league? Man deserves some points and respect on his name.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Don't know what you've been reading. On the Internet everywhere the reaction seemed to be mixed from what I've seen. Literally, the first Japanese comment to the announcement is of dissent

Yeah, it's not just XY, it's also DP.

Funny that XY/XYZ fans are often accused of gatekeeping and stemming discourse and criticism when it seems that you wish for criticism to die down regarding what transpired in relation to this " league "

You can keep praying, but I for one, will make sure the " dying yells " are heard and will continue to be heard

If "mixed" means like 95/5 then sure. Most of the people commenting are not invested enough in the show to complain about this league not being that good, and the people that ARE invested enough to MAYBE think that way, very few actually do - I totally acknowledge that this was a poor league and both DP and XY were considerably better, but simultaneously it is irrelevant how Ash wins a league as long as he wins a league. The most common "complaint" I've seen is from people who haven't seen SM complaining about the art style, and that isn't really relevant to him winning the league.

At the same time, though, any discussion about Ash's win here must include XY in order to be truly accurate. I reiterate - this win was 100% a response to the backlash after he lost in Kalos. That backlash worked and that makes this win a meta-victory for the fans, even though it would have been better if the writers had simply done the right thing and written the BW league better (so he doesn't lose a 6-on-5 and actually regress in terms of placement from top 4 to top 8, which should be a perennial source of shame for the writing staff) and had him win the XY league, but I'll take whatever I can get.

But that doesn't mean "Ash finally winning this league is bad because he should have won it in XY". It means "Ash winning a league is still ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC, it just wasn't the perfect time or the perfect league. But still amazing regardless."

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Also I don’t know how people started arguing about wether or not who’s “edgier” (lol what?) between Charizard man and Gladion but Gladion is the superior one. Can we talk about however how great Kiawe did in the league? Man deserves some points and respect on his name.

Eh. Ash's victory is yesterday's news. It gets old real fast, y'know.

 

[situationuk]

The writers basically let Ash win because of the 2016 Kalos League salt fallout. Without the true climax of the series (full battle against Kukui), my thoughts about the Alola League are:

Good points:
- Ash won
- Top 16 onwards showed ALL of the battles. Something that never happen before, it felt like a REAL tournament, instead of Ash battling two rivals only (like the previous leagues)
- Despite the gag fights against Faba and Hau, Ash was a deserved champion, he was the best battler among the whole cast.
- He was the MVP of Battle Royale (alongside with Kiawe).
- He was better than Guzma: Pikachu tackling Golisopod's legs with Iron Tail, leading to a super-effective Thunderbolt in mid air.
- He was better than Gladion: using Electroweb to boost Pikachu speed and hitting the fast Silvally with Iron Tail AND keeping Lycnaroc's Counter until last second as his hidden weapon.
- All of the members were part of the victory and all of them had the moment to shine. Instead of the overused formula of Pikachu + Regional Ace destroying everyone while the rest of the team is getting jobbed.

Bad points:
- Bunch of 1v1s and lack of full 6v6 battles.
- It felt like an inferior league. There's no way that characters like Lillie and Mallow made up to the Top 16.
- The final battle wasn't near epic as other classics of the series (vs. Gary, vs. Paul, vs. Sawyer), it felt very lackluster, the final move of Lycanroc even hadn't a background song.

Anyway, like someone said above, the status quo has been broken and Ash is finally a CHAMPION after all of these years. I'm not sure what is going to happen in the next anime, but at least we were able to watch Ash lifting a league trophy once.

The best scenario would be Ash going on a "world tour of Champions" in the next season, featuring old friends and old mons, which I doubt it happen. But if he somehow manages to beat Masked Royal, maybe Sun and Moon will be the last adventure of Ash.

 

[Xuxuba]

Only because they kept butting in, conflicting his strange thoughts to get stronger. Somehow, he gained an obsession for Mairin.

Alain was Sycamore's assistant so i am not sure that counts as butting in.

I think Alain wouldn't have gone for the job if he wanted distance from Sycamore lol

Isolation equals anything, but in his case, for edgy purposes./

Thankfully, he wasn't emo.

It is not like he lets out more than 1 or 2 pokémon that often though.

I mean, Gladion has a huge mansion full of servants and instead choses to live in the forest like a lonesome gnome eating crickets and god knows whatelse lmao

Then again, overall design.

The Power rangers design doesn't exclude edginess. In fact, that series had some of the edgiest characters in history like the Green ranger lmao

 

[Power Up]

You must feel so proud for doing such a great service to humanity anyway I’m still pressed that his friends didn’t show up idc

If "mixed" means like 95/5 then sure. Most of the people commenting are not invested enough in the show to complain about this league not being that good, and the people that ARE invested enough to MAYBE think that way, very few actually do - I totally acknowledge that this was a poor league and both DP and XY were considerably better, but simultaneously it is irrelevant how Ash wins a league as long as he wins a league. The most common "complaint" I've seen is from people who haven't seen SM complaining about the art style, and that isn't really relevant to him winning the league.

At the same time, though, any discussion about Ash's win here must include XY in order to be truly accurate. I reiterate - this win was 100% a response to the backlash after he lost in Kalos. That backlash worked and that makes this win a meta-victory for the fans, even though it would have been better if the writers had simply done the right thing and written the BW league better (so he doesn't lose a 6-on-5 and actually regress in terms of placement from top 4 to top 8, which should be a perennial source of shame for the writing staff) and had him win the XY league, but I'll take whatever I can get.

But that doesn't mean "Ash finally winning this league is bad because he should have won it in XY". It means "Ash winning a league is still ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC, it just wasn't the perfect time or the perfect league. But still amazing regardless."

I mean, 30% of people on this forum itself don’t even consider this tournament to be a league. It’s definitely not even close to just 95/5 from the reactions I’ve seen on reddit for example.

It’s completely relevant in how he wins. Of course that matters! Build-up, narrative strength, quality, these all matter. Personally I can’t believe that people don’t take that into account. The title is an empty shell if it doesn’t have anything to fill it.

 

[DatsRight]

Also I don’t know how people started arguing about wether or not who’s “edgier” (lol what?) between Charizard man and Gladion but Gladion is the superior one. Can we talk about however how great Kiawe did in the league? Man deserves some points and respect on his name.

I was impressed by how they handled the male companions for the whole league and build up arc, they definitely wanted to avert the usual 'curse' with them this series. Kiawe gets special credit for reaching the semi finals (with arguably the most consistently good battle run throughout) and even managing to break Midnight Lycanroc's winning streak before Ash did. Also like he used his whole team effectively like Ash did.

It's a shame the girls got sidelined as battlers this series. They boosted Lana as a semi battler but she got even less proper battles than Sophocles and was ultimately just set up to get crushed by Guzma. Even the actual Pokemon lineup from the semi finals onward is implied to be mostly boys or genderless. The girls got good development in the league regardless and it was cool seeing their plot armour run out but still.

 

[Blood Red]

I've considered this season to be nothing but 'meh'. The League itself was probably the weakest tournament ever, with not even a single Full Battle in sight. I don't think it should be considered surprising that so many people are unhappy about this being Ash's first League victory.

That being said, Alola is an actual Regional tournament, and Ash winning it has made me optimistic about the anime's future for the first time. Is it as impressive as winning the Kalos League would've been? No. But is this tournament more of a gamechanger than any of Ash's tournaments have been in the past? HELL YES.

Prepare yourself Galar, Champion Ash is coming.

 

[TheNewGuy]

I mean, 30% of people on this forum itself don’t even consider this tournament to be a league. It’s definitely not even close to just 95/5 from the reactions I’ve seen on reddit for example.

It’s completely relevant in how he wins. Of course that matters! Build-up, narrative strength, quality, these all matter. Personally I can’t believe that people don’t take that into account. The title is an empty shell if it doesn’t have anything to fill it.

Have to disagree with you on that one. Ash won a Pokemon League, that is the headline, that is the be-all and end-all, that is what matters. He won an official Pokemon League. He finally fulfilled his stated goal. I have agreed with you already that this was not the best league in terms of battle quality. But it's irrelevant.

Also, the show treated it as a league. I don't really care if it doesn't fill some imaginary requirements constructed by fans. It being a Pokemon League is not up for debate, it is objectively factually one, was told to us by the fans it was one, and the creators have called it one. Fans can be dissatisfied with the presentation or amount of battles, that is a defensible position, but to say it's "not a league" is to overplay your hand, because when you say that you cross into absurd, over-the-top territory since it is objectively false. You surely cannot have discussions with people unless you agree on a set of facts beforehand.

You're talking only about hardcore fans while I'm talking about everybody who has commented on this. This news made CNN, for crying out loud. It has been seen and commented on by millions of people, most of whom are completely casual fans who have paid no attention to SM overall. The amount of people who have commented on this and are happy about this dwarfs the "but X/Y tho!" crowd. He should have won in X/Y, I agree, and that would have been better. But I'm not so bitter about that debacle that I refuse to enjoy this win.

 

[Power Up]

Have to disagree with you on that one. Ash won a Pokemon League, that is the headline, that is the be-all and end-all, that is what matters. He won an official Pokemon League. He finally fulfilled his stated goal. I have agreed with you already that this was not the best league in terms of battle quality. But it's irrelevant.

Also, the show treated it as a league. I don't really care if it doesn't fill some imaginary requirements constructed by fans. It being a Pokemon League is not up for debate, it is objectively factually one, was told to us by the fans it was one, and the creators have called it one. Fans can be dissatisfied with the presentation or amount of battles, that is a defensible position, but to say it's "not a league" is to overplay your hand, because when you say that you cross into absurd, over-the-top territory since it is objectively false. You surely cannot have discussions with people unless you agree on a set of facts beforehand.

You're talking only about hardcore fans while I'm talking about everybody who has commented on this. This news made CNN, for crying out loud. It has been seen and commented on by millions of people, most of whom are completely casual fans who have paid no attention to SM overall. The amount of people who have commented on this and are happy about this dwarfs the "but X/Y tho!" crowd. He should have won in X/Y, I agree, and that would have been better. But I'm not so bitter about that debacle that I refuse to enjoy this win.

That’s an incredibly narrow way to view this and things in general. Context matters. It matters a sh*t ton. Of course, you don’t have to believe this, but like I said, I really can’t wrap my mind around what you’re saying.

You’re essentially saying the headline is all that is important. That’s pretty much bait. A headline needs meat for credibility. Just today, a news article was forced to correct an article that had a damning headline with context. I’m not goin to agree with this framing at all. I believe it to be very close-minded. You’re free to think differently.

It not being a league is a defensible position in the show itself. Barrier entries for example. This league didn’t have one, other leagues have. One can use that as an example of it not being a legit league, in relation to leagues of past. That’s an easy 1 to 2 punch that kind of goes against the hardline narrative you’re trying to set.

That’s a fact

I am talking about tons of people. In the r/anime thread on Reddit itself there’s a plentiful amount of dissent.

It’s also kind of sad that you’re using bait and knee-jerk reactions as a way to garner credibility for this tournament. I wonder how many people would think differently, if you know, they were given context?

 

[LilligantLewis]

I want to give a caveat before stating my opinion that I have not watched any of this league. I will be watching it when the dub airs it starting November 2, but my opinion is based on just what I know. It may change obviously, but just wanted to throw out that caveat first of all so that people don't come after me for wrong info. However, based on what I know, when I look at episode titles, this league had 12 episodes?!? That's insane! That alone to me makes it a real league. Note that I am not saying it is as good as the 6 previous leagues, but it's definitely better than the ORANGE LEAGUE, which some people in this thread have compared it to. I mean seriously: Orange League 2 episodes; this league 12 episodes, and people are comparing them? Yeah, maybe it had a bunch of 1v1s, battle royales, 2v2s, and 3v3s were the most based on the sounds of things, but still, even if it didn't have as good of battle quality, it must have had much better narrative structure than several recent leagues, actually building things up over 12 episodes before Ash won. I mean, if he had won in Kalos, it would have seemed like he won 2 battles, not a league. (Don't get me wrong, I would have been happy, but still, 2 battles isn't a league). My overall point is: not saying that having 12 episodes makes it the best league ever just bc it had the most episodes, but I'm just saying that 12 episodes makes it a real league. The way people were calling it a "random tournament" i thought it must have been 4 episodes like those BW tournaments or something, so imagine my surprise when I see it was 12 episodes. People who say it's not a real league, you are wrong!!!!!

Indigo League: 7 episodes
Orange League: 2 episodes
Johto League: 8 episodes
Hoenn League: 7 episodes
Sinnoh League: 8 episodes
Unova League: 6 episodes (including one Axew filler, but I'm going to include it to be fair; for all of these I am counting from the first episode to the last)
Kalos League: 7 episodes
Alola League: 12 episodes

The other leagues aren't even close tbh

BTW, speaking of leagues. Ash really needs to have another night battle like he did against Ritchie. Made the match feel a lot bigger as if it was on primetime television.

Yeah, that battle and the Olympia gym match are the only night battles in the history of the show. Never understood why they're so rare

First league all of Ash's rivals originated from the games.

Maybe that's why he won! The dream crusher was always an anime-original rival lol

Ash gets backstabbed by a person who he thought was a colleague and rival but how it was executed it fell short only because of how they built up his Mega Charizard X.

maybe we would have felt differently about it if we hadn't had the Mega Evolution Specials so that we already knew who Alain was? If we were in the same boat as Ash, and it shocked the audience too when Alain betrayed, maybe this would have worked better

I wonder how Kathleen McInerney, aka Veronica Taylor for those who know her by her professional name, the original voice actress of dubbed Ash, feels about this? I know she personally enjoyed playing the role of Ash.

wow I didn't know that was her real name until now

All we know is Alan had zero badges and no known Pokemon outside of Lizardon-X and suddenly had all eight in the span of four episodes and a full team at the league.

Technically he had Metang as well. However, I agree with everything else you've been saying in this thread about Alain's ridiculous arc

When Gladion called Ash, “Champion”, I immediately went from 0 to 100 and started chanting as if the Giants won the Super Bowl

Well, it's ironic then that some are now saying yesterday might have been your team's two-time Super Bowl MVP's last career start.

You can keep praying, but I for one, will make sure the " dying yells " are heard and will continue to be heard

You must be fun at parties

 

[Power Up]

I want to give a caveat before stating my opinion that I have not watched any of this league. I will be watching it when the dub airs it starting November 2, but my opinion is based on just what I know. It may change obviously, but just wanted to throw out that caveat first of all so that people don't come after me for wrong info. However, based on what I know, when I look at episode titles, this league had 12 episodes?!? That's insane! That alone to me makes it a real league. Note that I am not saying it is as good as the 6 previous leagues, but it's definitely better than the ORANGE LEAGUE, which some people in this thread have compared it to. I mean seriously: Orange League 2 episodes; this league 12 episodes, and people are comparing them? Yeah, maybe it had a bunch of 1v1s, battle royales, 2v2s, and 3v3s were the most based on the sounds of things, but still, even if it didn't have as good of battle quality, it must have had much better narrative structure than several recent leagues, actually building things up over 12 episodes before Ash won. I mean, if he had won in Kalos, it would have seemed like he won 2 battles, not a league. (Don't get me wrong, I would have been happy, but still, 2 battles isn't a league). My overall point is: not saying that having 12 episodes makes it the best league ever just bc it had the most episodes, but I'm just saying that 12 episodes makes it a real league. The way people were calling it a "random tournament" i thought it must have been 4 episodes like those BW tournaments or something, so imagine my surprise when I see it was 12 episodes. People who say it's not a real league, you are wrong!!!!!

Indigo League: 7 episodes
Orange League: 2 episodes
Johto League: 8 episodes
Hoenn League: 7 episodes
Sinnoh League: 8 episodes
Unova League: 6 episodes (including one Axew filler, but I'm going to include it to be fair; for all of these I am counting from the first episode to the last)
Kalos League: 7 episodes
Alola League: 12 episodes

The other leagues aren't even close tbh



Yeah, that battle and the Olympia gym match are the only night battles in the history of the show. Never understood why they're so rare



Maybe that's why he won! The dream crusher was always an anime-original rival lol



maybe we would have felt differently about it if we hadn't had the Mega Evolution Specials so that we already knew who Alain was? If we were in the same boat as Ash, and it shocked the audience too when Alain betrayed, maybe this would have worked better



wow I didn't know that was her real name until now



Technically he had Metang as well. However, I agree with everything else you've been saying in this thread about Alain's ridiculous arc



Well, it's ironic then that some are now saying yesterday might have been your team's two-time Super Bowl MVP's last career start.



You must be fun at parties

Two words. Context matters. What went on in those episodes is of significant importance I would say.

Also, how did ya guess?

 

[DatsRight]

I'm usually the first to complain when I don't think the protagonists put in enough effort or agency, however, while I do agree this was dumbed down compared to previous leagues and understand others' disappointment, I think it was far from a zero effort for Ash, especially since some single battles were stretched out a fair while to give a 'more for less' feel to them. Gladion and Guzma were a legit challenge and offered arguably the best battles in the series, Hau was a bit more arbitrary, but even then I wouldn't call it a complete farce (it feels more respectful when you remember the dex entries state that Rowlet naturally sleep to regain energy through photosynthesis). The only gag battle was Faba, and even then Meltan outdone him fair and square (remember Faba slaughtered Pikachu and Snowy previously, he wasn't that big a joke). Again, while the previous leagues had full battles you have to remember other details like certain battles being offscreen and many of the secondary Pokemon getting eliminated quickly and anti-climatically in favour of focusing on Pikachu and the aces anyway.

 

[Sham]

I don’t get how this a weak league. Guzma Kiawe Gladion and Ash are established battlers. Hau and Acerola are no different than Harrison or let’s say Cameron. The only people are questionable are the Alola girls.

 

[mehmeh1]

I want to give a caveat before stating my opinion that I have not watched any of this league. I will be watching it when the dub airs it starting November 2, but my opinion is based on just what I know. It may change obviously, but just wanted to throw out that caveat first of all so that people don't come after me for wrong info. However, based on what I know, when I look at episode titles, this league had 12 episodes?!? That's insane! That alone to me makes it a real league. Note that I am not saying it is as good as the 6 previous leagues, but it's definitely better than the ORANGE LEAGUE, which some people in this thread have compared it to. I mean seriously: Orange League 2 episodes; this league 12 episodes, and people are comparing them? Yeah, maybe it had a bunch of 1v1s, battle royales, 2v2s, and 3v3s were the most based on the sounds of things, but still, even if it didn't have as good of battle quality, it must have had much better narrative structure than several recent leagues, actually building things up over 12 episodes before Ash won. I mean, if he had won in Kalos, it would have seemed like he won 2 battles, not a league. (Don't get me wrong, I would have been happy, but still, 2 battles isn't a league). My overall point is: not saying that having 12 episodes makes it the best league ever just bc it had the most episodes, but I'm just saying that 12 episodes makes it a real league. The way people were calling it a "random tournament" i thought it must have been 4 episodes like those BW tournaments or something, so imagine my surprise when I see it was 12 episodes. People who say it's not a real league, you are wrong!!!!!

Indigo League: 7 episodes
Orange League: 2 episodes
Johto League: 8 episodes
Hoenn League: 7 episodes
Sinnoh League: 8 episodes
Unova League: 6 episodes (including one Axew filler, but I'm going to include it to be fair; for all of these I am counting from the first episode to the last)
Kalos League: 7 episodes
Alola League: 12 episodes

The other leagues aren't even close tbh



Yeah, that battle and the Olympia gym match are the only night battles in the history of the show. Never understood why they're so rare



Maybe that's why he won! The dream crusher was always an anime-original rival lol



maybe we would have felt differently about it if we hadn't had the Mega Evolution Specials so that we already knew who Alain was? If we were in the same boat as Ash, and it shocked the audience too when Alain betrayed, maybe this would have worked better



wow I didn't know that was her real name until now



Technically he had Metang as well. However, I agree with everything else you've been saying in this thread about Alain's ridiculous arc



Well, it's ironic then that some are now saying yesterday might have been your team's two-time Super Bowl MVP's last career start.



You must be fun at parties

Ash vs Hapu was also at night (only talking about official matches, and even then I'm sure Ash vs Olympia was at day, just that the inside of the gym looked like space)

 

[GarchompChain]

I don’t get how this a weak league. Guzma Kiawe Gladion and Ash are established battlers. Hau and Acerola are no different than Harrison or let’s say Cameron. The only people are questionable are the Alola girls.

Hau is no different than Harrison? Come on man. At least Harrison has a full team and at least 8 badges.