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Thoughts on the Masters 8/PWC as a whole?

If they weren't that important, they could have shared them amongst the party, period.

I never said that assists don't count, I just said they don't mean much to me. If a pokemon had 1 official win and like 10 losses but that pokemon assisted in 9 of those battles a little, they're still weak at the end of the day as they can't actually defeat a pokemon.
You literally have no idea what cumulative battle damage means for a team. Ash had to use 3 Pokemon to take out Leon's Rillaboom for example, nobody thinks Dracovish took it out all on its own because it got the final KO. It was a team effort from Dragonite, Sirfetch'd and then Dracovish who all scored attacks on it.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I'm surprised you say that, Gengar vs. Intellion was great to start, but the battle picked up during the Mr. Rime/Dragapult episode showing Ash having to deal with a strategy but not falling behind with Dragonite and Sirfetch'd/Lucario against Mr. Rime and Dragapult, and then Ash using 3 Pokemon to take out the massive wall known as Rillaboom was great too. Ash's wins were all believeable and the first 3 Leon episodes were all great.
Oh yeah, I liked the strategies pulled. Dragon Tail caught me off guard the most cause it’s counter effect felt so out of nowhere like when Dracovish got hit then got swapped out for Happynite. Let me be clear, everyone but Lucario carried this battle. His prideful stance at the end surprised me, like you barely did much compared to the other battles you conquered.

I can’t say it was bad when it wasn’t. May appearing was enough to GOAT this battle for what it was as one of the top 10 battles.

I wasn’t a fan of Diantha vs Lance or Dande vs Alan (though I think everyone feels that way.) Those we’re the weakest battles. My favorite battle in the whole PWC tournament remains Iris vs Cynthia.
 
I rather like Diantha Vs. Lance, Diantha's stategies were on point changing Gyarados to a ghost type, and then Lance managed to turn the battle around and was leading 2 to 1 when Dragonite Gmax. Animation wasn't great but it was a good writing wise.
 
Ya but no one thinks Dragonite or Sirfetch'd beat Rillaboom either lol that's my point. Again assassists don't mean much in the end. When you think of Sceptile vs Darkrai, you don't think of who he fought before, you just remember that Sceptile knocked him out finally.
The difference is some pokemon in that battle did nothing like Torkoal and got OHKO without doing damage. Here Dragonite, Sirfetch'd and Dracovish all did damage to it, and it's loss in HP gradually brought it down.

I'm shocked I have to say this. In the Orange League finale, Squirtle, Tauros, Charizard and Pikachu all did damage to Drake's Dragonite to bring it down, it's not like Pikachu took it out all on itself. I have no idea how you think Ash using a team to gradually drain the health of an opponent is not the Pokemon doing well. If all you care about is the final "KO" then you're clearly ignoring everything happening in the battle. As I said above, it's like saying Lucario took out Cynthia's Garchomp all on its own...it didn't.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I rather like Diantha Vs. Lance, Diantha's stategies were on point changing Gyarados to a ghost type, and then Lance managed to turn the battle around and was leading 2 to 1 when Dragonite Gmax. Animation wasn't great but it was a good writing wise.
I understand that but I was rooting for Lance. I’m tired of that poser Diantha winning, thank god Cynthia allowed her to share the same breathing proximity as her.

They both striked excellent battling counters but Diantha had fan service on her side.
 

1rkhachatryan

Call me Robert guys
The difference is some pokemon in that battle did nothing like Torkoal and got OHKO without doing damage. Here Dragonite, Sirfetch'd and Dracovish all did damage to it, and it's loss in HP gradually brought it down.

I'm shocked I have to say this. In the Orange League finale, Squirtle, Tauros, Charizard and Pikachu all did damage to Drake's Dragonite to bring it down, it's not like Pikachu took it out all on itself. I have no idea how you think Ash using a team to gradually drain the health of an opponent is not the Pokemon doing well. If all you care about is the final "KO" then you're clearly ignoring everything happening in the battle. As I said above, it's like saying Lucario took out Cynthia's Garchomp all on its own...it didn't.

Meh, Hurricane barely touched Rillaboom. You can argue Sirfetch'd as it did manage to knock Rillaboom back into his drum set but Dracovish still did most of the work.

But no one remembers those. They just remember that Pikachu took it down by grabbing the horns and Thunder, that's my point, assists are all but forgotten in the end, the only thing people end up remembering is the killing blow for the most part, and those are the iconic battles.

And also this has nothing to do with anything, my point remains that this tournament was a **** show, the battle records of everyone who isn't Pikachu and Lucario was a mess, and it was handled badly. If that offends you to hear, well that's a you problem, I'm never going to like this tournament, sorry not sorry.
 

vondecayle

Long gone are the days
I understand that but I was rooting for Lance. I’m tired of that poser Diantha winning, thank god Cynthia allowed her to share the same breathing proximity as her.

They both striked excellent battling counters but Diantha had fan service on her side.
Tired of Diantha winning? What? lol when was the last time she won something? XY? That was years ago.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Tired of Diantha winning? What? lol when was the last time she won something? XY? That was years ago.
They obviously won’t show a Champion winning every match since she’s not a relevant character. People say the same about Cynthia being OP when she’s barely been seen in matches so I can say the same for Diantha when I wanted Lance to win against her. Glorified movie star with no roles and only a Gardevior to be worshiped with.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Fan service and marketing. I mean the top four had a Gardevior, Charizard, Garchomp and Pikachu and this is the first tournament where they heavily depended on merch selling. Diantha defeating Lance only to get destroyed by Leon (who Lance was on his level at the beginning) is pure chaos
I guess Dragonite bumped Lucario off the list.
 

vondecayle

Long gone are the days
I think Diantha won so Lance wouldn’t have to fight Leon again. I don’t think it had anything to do with fanservice in the sense of popularity since she tends to get a lot of crap for being “weak”, unless you’re implying the writers wanted to vindicate her by winning, to end all those rumors that she is the weakest champion. Which would be a kind of fanservice I guess. Make her win so they can shut up about her being weak.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Even if the purpose was about making Diantha seem less weak they did a horrible job. I’m not gonna get into the whole Greninja fight because the fight speaks for itself but having her defeat Lance but then have Rillaboom sweep her and then tank a whole Fire Blast didn’t come off as good. All that strategy went out the window

a Fire Blast from a Goodra, the worst handled Psuedo Legendary in the entire show's history.
 
Meh, Hurricane barely touched Rillaboom. You can argue Sirfetch'd as it did manage to knock Rillaboom back into his drum set but Dracovish still did most of the work.

But no one remembers those. They just remember that Pikachu took it down by grabbing the horns and Thunder, that's my point, assists are all but forgotten in the end, the only thing people end up remembering is the killing blow for the most part, and those are the iconic battles.

Hurricane affected him either way and the referee declared it super effective, we're supposed to look at all the damage together. I'm not sure why you think people will only remember certain parts, each segment of that battle had specific strategy I'm going to remember. You're going on about Lucario and it hardly had a bigger role than the others, it only appeared in Cynthia/Leon's battles and only took out 2 pokemon in Cynthia, one heavily hurt by Sirfetch'd and one assisted win in Leon's. You're the one who seems to think people only remember finishing blows, but I don't see anyone else bringing that up at all. Also I don't know why you ignore strategy and simply who "got the last KO" there's more to battles than whoever landed the last hit.

And also this has nothing to do with anything, my point remains that this tournament was a **** show, the battle records of everyone who isn't Pikachu and Lucario was a mess, and it was handled badly. If that offends you to hear, well that's a you problem, I'm never going to like this tournament, sorry not sorry.
The battle records of everyone else is pretty close. They all won battles, lost some, and Pikachu's is only elevated by 1 on 1's but lost in Bea's constantly and early in Cynthia to even it out. You're basically ignoring what is happening and only focusing on win percentages which makes no sense. Reason I brought up Ash's past teams is because the same happens every gen, not even talking about XY/SM but even back in AG and DP. to his older teams. The fact that you're also bringing this up now is absurd, all of Ash's pokemon have their moments and wins during the series, and you oddly keep focusing on what they lose?

The writers divided Ash's pokemon wins very well this tournament. You're somehow acting like Pikachu/Lucario hogged all the battles, this is not what happened at all. Even earlier in the series. Most of Raihan's match was dominated by Gengar, not Lucario.
 
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SoundVoltex

Well-Known Member
Final party of Ash vs Leon = Peak, on par with exhibition battle during Sun and Moon. Ash vs Cynthia was well written, but I didn't feel the rush of emotions I had during Pikachu vs Charizard.

M8 = 7/10, PWC as a whole = 6/10.
Ash vs Leon = 9/10, Ash vs Cynthia 8/10
 

vondecayle

Long gone are the days
The PWC was a great opportunity to bring back Richie, Katie, Morrison, Virgil, Bianca, Cameron, Stephan and so many other trainers… not all of them had to fight Ash, but surely a battle against Cameron to vindicate Ash would’ve been nice. Battle Virgil since it never happened in Unova, have an official battle against Bianca and show how much she’s grown… etc. I would even take a battle between Iris and Bianca, but more importantly Iris vs Georgia so they could showcase Iris with new dragon pokemon. At least the battle against Volkner was good.
 

Hu Tao

Serebii Lurker for at least half a decade
The PWC was a great opportunity to bring back Richie, Katie, Morrison, Virgil, Bianca, Cameron, Stephan and so many other trainers… not all of them had to fight Ash, but surely a battle against Cameron to vindicate Ash would’ve been nice. Battle Virgil since it never happened in Unova, have an official battle against Bianca and show how much she’s grown… etc. I would even take a battle between Iris and Bianca, but more importantly Iris vs Georgia so they could showcase Iris with new dragon pokemon. At least the battle against Volkner was good.
Georgia was watching Iris vs Cynthia with a smile, even though her last appearance in the anime was losing to Iris and her Disobedient Dragonite and being annoyed about it, rip development for her cuz she was the last mean rival we got in the anime and her rivalry as a Dragon Buster never got resolved, same with Cilan's rival that saga. Really up and dipped before Gen 6 bought Fairies in to hard counter Iris and her dragons.

I assume a lot of anime-exclusive characters didn't get focus because they wanted to focus on characters from the game such as Marnie, Volkner, Raihan, Bea, and then one off CotDs for the rest of the PWC. Even Paul wasn't supposed to appear in the Oak's lab at first (supposedly) and Alain was not really a big part of the M8, basically being a filler slot to be Leon food. That being said it would be cool if we got an episode for each region's rivals and friends like the Alola reunion + Battle Royal episode instead of filler like Marshtomp in ground, Team Rocket finding Pikachu language, or Tons of Unown ft. Cynthia
 
It was a mess of favoritism against people with the same typing as Ash's team. Some of these were people he already beat, so why waste potential new meat against old meat that'll get forgotten after the episode is over (unless you have a Lucario)? Adding to this, this had the nasty consequence of making Galar trainers unimportant as a whole. Ash only ever fought 4 of ALL the Galar trainers, and one of these four had to be written off quickly, alongside a whole slew of people, when her battle was over.

Ranking up was also a mess. Ash kept ranking up offscreen. Apparently, that was even better than the one-minute Pikachu battles from very early on.

Ash winning all the time (except for his one loss against Bea because he used babies against her adults) was an incredibly stupid decision. Sure, this iteration of Ash is the best, but, he's also the most boring iteration as there was never a point he hit a real low.

Very stupid that not a single native Alolan trainer bothered to participate. Also, I may not remember, but did Ash even fight a Johto trainer?

Why is the Kalos Stadium better designed than the barebones Wyndon Stadium? In fact, why even remove the grass from the Wyndon Stadium?

The Lucario pandering was, as expected, annoying. The thing only got one loss as a Riolu and one loss as a Lucario (AT THE END). Forget Pikachu beating Charizard, Lucario was the real MVP for bad reasons.

Why relegate Hop to a fanboy at the stands rather than making him a participant?

The lack of a real rival pretty much allowed Ash to win it all (you done goofed, Bea). Can anyone imagine if Gladion wasn't a rival in Alola? Ash would have won all his battles all the time (Kukui doesn't count because he was an exhibition trainer).

I didn't feel that importance to beat Cynthia when she and Ash didn't really fight once prior their only fight, not even as a mock battle. Also, girl, what is wrong with you not gearing up your Ground-type dragon with a Ground-type move against a Steel-type? You're supposed to be this smart lady who completely owned Ash at the start of the fight, but then your started being an idiot in the second half.

First Half of the PWC:
lol Gengar

Second Half of the PWC:
lol (lady reveal) Dragonite

The fact that the top 8 were all Champions was perhaps a ridiculous idea, as that devalues any other dark horse trainer in the world from making a name for themselves.

Given how Leon effortlessly defeated the Kalos champions but then got his Champion Time *** handed to Ash makes me believe Leon simply had an easy time fighting the Kalos champions instead of anyone else.

Finale was also a mess. Leon basically told Ash to beat him by using all 3 gimmicks + one extra Dynamax charge. The mere fact that Leon forced Ash to his last Pokemon only tells me that he could have easily beat Ash if he had also used 3 gimmicks as well (note that, to believe this other alternative, this battle had to happen. If this alternative actually happened, I'd probably like this battle).

Oh, and one last thing: all of Ash's companions and his mother should have been at the stands, perhaps regardless of lack of VA availability.

Sooo, yeah, this tourney was a huge mess pandering to Ash. Only thing the PWC was good for was to trick people into the hype, but only be for the hype.
Alan was the dark horse trainer in the Masters 8, and arguably Iris too. They made it among the strongest trainers currently competing.

As for Leon, he requested all the gimmicks as he wanted to fight them all, and even then most of them didn't even do much for Ash to begin with so they mostly even out. Leon got a second Gmax use as well to compliment Pikachu's, while the Z move didn't do much and neither did the Mega.

The lack of reserves was the biggest missed opportunity of the PWC as a whole, and maybe battling a few older characters, but the rest sounds like nitpicking. Who cares that Ash didn't face a trainer from Johto? Really.
 
Tbh the only real problem is they should have had a few more battles in Great and Ultra class on the way. At least one more Elite 4 battle after Drasna.

Besides that and the lack of reserves there's not much I would nitpick. Ash already has feats and all his current team have major victories at one point or another.

Lastly Lucario wasn't anywhere pushed as bad as it could have been, it sat out of most battles besides the Bea arc and had a smaller role in Volkner and Raihan's.
 
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