Thoughts on the Upcoming Pokemon Switch Game?

[PrinceOfFacade]

I'm not seeing it. ._.

Another problem I have with the models of LGPE is their hideous faces. OK the protagonists, Brock and a couple of others are fine imo but the rest...I can't. Especially Lance and Lorelei. ;__;

I've personally never been a fan of the chibi look, but if you're going to do it, do it right.

I feel Let's GO did it right. I do agree about Lance, though. I did not like his look in this game at all.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Ok let's do a raw model comparison without textures for the fairest result. So here's Chase from LGPE (left), Guzma from SuMo (middle), and Looker from XY (right). Blender on Mac is a pain in the rear so it was sorta hard getting a decent angle but this should do the job. As you can see, the difference between them is pretty intense. I don't really feel like I need to explain how LGPE models are better, however if you wish to see from a different angle just let me know.

Image is gone, but I saw it earlier today so I can still comment on them.

Anyway, are you sure we're looking at the same images? Those aren't "intense" differences at all, they're actually pretty subtle. The polygon count is mainly the same (XY's is a little worse, but not enough to jump out at you), the body proportions are mainly the same, all that's really different is XY's being slightly more polygonal and SM's being less chibi. The differences aren't really that striking. You shouldn't need a side by side comparison and a magnifying glass to see the difference between 3DS graphics and Switch graphics, the Switch should be night and day better.

for me and many others, there's a social side to pokemon. Playing the new game with friends is fun. Battling them along the way, trading and just talking about events that happened or what pokemon are on our teams. The solo aspect is there, sure. I'm a loner at heart and like to play by myself a lot, but these games offered a different sort of journey and I'm still having a lot of fun with it. It's simple but enjoyable.

Again, you could already do those things in previous games, and LGPE doesn't really have any extra social features to make the game more fun. It literally just has the bare minimum trading and battling and nothing else. If they want to include social features instead of single player features because that suits the game better, I have no problem with that. Just put something in. The game costs $20 more, the experience should feel $20 better. Really, with everything they've simplified the game feels more like $20 worse.

 

[Prof. SALTY]

I'm not seeing it. ._.

Another problem I have with the models of LGPE is their hideous faces. OK the protagonists, Brock and a couple of others are fine imo but the rest...I can't. Especially Lance and Lorelei. ;__;

I don't really understand why people don't like the way lance looks...? He looks completely fine to me. Lorelei looks amazing too.

Image is gone, but I saw it earlier today so I can still comment on them.

Anyway, are you sure we're looking at the same images? Those aren't "intense" differences at all, they're actually pretty subtle. The polygon count is mainly the same (XY's is a little worse, but not enough to jump out at you), the body proportions are mainly the same, all that's really different is XY's being slightly more polygonal and SM's being less chibi. The differences aren't really that striking. You shouldn't need a side by side comparison and a magnifying glass to see the difference between 3DS graphics and Switch graphics, the Switch should be night and day better.

Yeah not really sure what happened to it...? I uploaded it to my page and it's completely disappeared without explanation... I'll look into it when I get home and fix the post.

Maybe it's not as obvious as I thought then... to me the differences are absolutely insane. All the arms and legs are square in XY/SuMo, SuMo faces are practically flat (though I don't really mind that look. It's kinda stylish), XY faces are segmented into the different facial features as completely detached pieces, the hands lack any detail, the feet are curved rectangles. The polygon count difference between the 3 is absolutely insane to me.

Again, you could already do those things in previous games, and LGPE doesn't really have any extra social features to make the game more fun. It literally just has the bare minimum trading and battling and nothing else. If they want to include social features instead of single player features because that suits the game better, I have no problem with that. Just put something in. The game costs $20 more, the experience should feel $20 better. Really, with everything they've simplified the game feels more like $20 worse.

Price means nothing to me, it's completely irrelevant. I'm Australian.

The thing is, we've already done it with those games. It's not just the social elements that are social. We talk about story events. A separate adventures together sort of thing. I've done that with every game. It's not just a game, it's a conversation piece.

 

[Kein]

LGPE cost more because they're home console games (look at Smash Bros 3DS compared to the Wii U version, and countless Vita/PS4 and even PC/console ports). And yes, they do have extra features that you may or may not care about: Namely overworld Pokemon, Go catching, Go Park mini game, easier hunts for rare/shiny/strong Pokemon, co-op, Master Trainers and rematches with all the important non-Rocket trainers.

Personally, I don't find them lacking compared to the 3DS games even though ORAS and USUM certainly have more features, but few I care about. That said, I'm only renting LGPE and may do the same with future titles. I only play to experience all the locations and major battles, so a $60 investment is too steep.

 

[Prof. SALTY]

UPDATE! I fixed the photo. really not sure what happened but it was an easy fix

 

[Kein]

Chase's model looks smoother than Guzma's, but not by much. Looker's model looks bad.

 

[Prof. SALTY]

Chase's model looks smoother than Guzma's, but not by much. Looker's model looks bad.

the difference is still noticeable to the point where, if they had the same proportions, they clearly come from different games though.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

So what real world area are you hoping the next region will be set in? I’m hoping Alaska, Spain, Greece, Italy, the Amazon, or Africa. All have interesting histories and great possibilities for Pokémon and cities.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Maybe it's not as obvious as I thought then... to me the differences are absolutely insane. All the arms and legs are square in XY/SuMo, SuMo faces are practically flat (though I don't really mind that look. It's kinda stylish), XY faces are segmented into the different facial features as completely detached pieces, the hands lack any detail, the feet are curved rectangles. The polygon count difference between the 3 is absolutely insane to me.

Yeah, I can barely tell a difference. They're all too polygonal and squat. For a Switch Pokemon game, I expect something much more realistic. Maybe something more like this:

Spoiler

Something like this looks realistic enough, the polygon count is high enough that you don't see any unrealistic angles and the body proportions are appropriate for a kid.

Price means nothing to me, it's completely irrelevant. I'm Australian.

But Switch games still cost more than 3DS games in Australia, yes? So it doesn't matter, the same logic applies.

The thing is, we've already done it with those games. It's not just the social elements that are social. We talk about story events. A separate adventures together sort of thing. I've done that with every game. It's not just a game, it's a conversation piece.

You can have conversations for free though, you don't need to buy a game just to have a conversation about the game.

LGPE cost more because they're home console games (look at Smash Bros 3DS compared to the Wii U version, and countless Vita/PS4 and even PC/console ports).

Smash Bros. 3DS had inferior graphics and less features than the Wii U version, and some characters were actually kept out or changed because of the 3DS system limitations. And this isn't a port, it's designed from the ground up to be a Switch game. And what Smash Bros. is doing on the Switch is blowing the 3DS version out of the water.

And yes, they do have extra features that you may or may not care about: Namely overworld Pokemon, Go catching, Go Park mini game, easier hunts for rare/shiny/strong Pokemon, co-op, Master Trainers and rematches with all the important non-Rocket trainers.

Again, it's not just about having extra features. It's about having more extra features than previous games to justify the increased cost. Consumers don't like paying more money for things they don't even notice, that's why when they increase the price of something they're expected to throw something in that makes the higher price tag more worthwhile. It's just like with Switch's online. The complaint isn't that they suddenly have to pay money for online, people get that higher quality internet costs money. The complaint is that they're getting about the same quality of online that they previously got for free and that they haven't brought with it things that would improve the value from the consumer end like improved matchmaking, dedicated servers over P2P, a robust catalog of retro games (that smattering of NES titles is near worthless when they're as cheap as can be and we've played them on 5 other consoles), and discounts on games.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

I hope they keep the overworld wandering Pokémon and size difference gimmicks from now on. Also, I got the riding Persian by accident by answering the question the opposite of what I wanted to.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

Maybe it's not as obvious as I thought then... to me the differences are absolutely insane. All the arms and legs are square in XY/SuMo, SuMo faces are practically flat (though I don't really mind that look. It's kinda stylish), XY faces are segmented into the different facial features as completely detached pieces, the hands lack any detail, the feet are curved rectangles. The polygon count difference between the 3 is absolutely insane to me.

It's quite obvious. Even to the untrained eye, the differences are there.

The Let's GO model is almost entirely free of polygonal structure, which a massive advancement for the series. Bolt the Cat's problem is he's expecting Game Freak to jump from 10 to 100 simply because they went to handheld to home console, which shows how little he knows about game development, particularly Game Freak's.

No one in their right mind would've expected Let's GO, or even the Gen 8 title, to have ideal AAA graphics in such little time. A Pokémon game only receives two years of critical programming, and the reason is because we the fans (including every fan complaining about Let's GO) are extremely demanding, and would riot if we went 3+ years without a single Pokémon release. In addition to this, it's been noted more than once that Game Freak has always preferred a slower pace when it comes to progress, because doing so allows them more time to learn, grow, and experiment, and always gives players something new to look forward to in the next installment.

Bolt the Cat, like so many others, got their hopes way too high, and now they're all crashing down. It's their fault and theirs alone for expecting something no one said would ever happen.

The biggest jump in graphics Pokémon has ever had was from Gen 5 to Gen 6, and that was a MASSIVE shocker. I do not expect such a jump anytime soon, nor should anyone else. Most franchises don't have those kinds of jumps, especially not more than once. Be smart.

 

[Kein]

Yeah, I can barely tell a difference. They're all too polygonal and squat. For a Switch Pokemon game, I expect something much more realistic. Maybe something more like this:

Something like this looks realistic enough, the polygon count is high enough that you don't see any unrealistic angles and the body proportions are appropriate for a kid.

The humans in Pokemon aren't the ones doing the heavy work (the player character walks and the NPCs talk, for the most part). Their models don't need to be incredibly detailed, which is not to say that I like them.

And this isn't a port, it's designed from the ground up to be a Switch game.

It's a remake, so that is only half true.

Again, it's not just about having extra features. It's about having more extra features than previous games to justify the increased cost. Consumers don't like paying more money for things they don't even notice, that's why when they increase the price of something they're expected to throw something in that makes the higher price tag more worthwhile.

I am just not sure where you're going with this. The features I listed are hardly easy to miss, and their worth is entirely subjective. I personally find the games overpriced, but you should accept that many people are happy with the content. Otherwise the games wouldn't have sold over 3 million units in 3 days.

To me, LGPE have more worth than the other big Switch games, even though it's clear that the latter had longer development cycles and more staff. Opinions don't follow a laundry list.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

So I went to Target today and they had a demo of LGPE. I played it for the hell of it so I could see what the capture mechanics were like. And boy, were they worse than I thought. For a game that's supposed to be casual friendly, this game does a horrible job of teaching you how the capture mechanics work. I've never played Go, so I'm not familiar with the Go capture mechanics and they don't really give you enough information on how they work. I assumed that you were supposed to time your throw when the circle is as small as possible, but the game didn't really tell me if you want the circle to be big or small, it just said "pay attention to the rings". Like, I'm sick of the games talking my ear off with tutorials but this is the opposite extreme and it's leaving out crucial information on how the mechanic works. Furthermore, the motion controls seem to be really off and most of the time my throws either ended up way out into left field or pitifully bouncing on the ground in front of the Pokemon. The game gives you no feedback whatsoever what's a good throw and what's a bad throw and it didn't really seem to be consistent. If they insist on continuing with this kind of capture system, they should do the following:

1. Give more detailed information on how the rings work. When's the right time to throw the ball? When it's big? Small? Somewhere in between? It's not that intuitive a system so this is something they most certainly should be explaining.
2. Have a cursor appear on screen that shows where the ball will land when you throw it. This will make it easier to see how your motions are affecting the throw.

I'm open to seeing more of this kind of capture mechanic, there's a lot of ways they can build on this to make it an interesting system in its own right, but it needs to be a LOT more polished and intuitive to really work well. I can easily see the casuals they're so desperate to bend over backwards for getting frustrated with these mechanics and rage quitting after 5 minutes as is. It's a good thing I already wasn't planning on getting the games anyway, because if I was, this demo would've instantly turned me off.

The Let's GO model is almost entirely free of polygonal structure, which a massive advancement for the series. Bolt the Cat's problem is he's expecting Game Freak to jump from 10 to 100 simply because they went to handheld to home console, which shows how little he knows about game development, particularly Game Freak's.

No one in their right mind would've expected Let's GO, or even the Gen 8 title, to have ideal AAA graphics in such little time. A Pokémon game only receives two years of critical programming, and the reason is because we the fans (including every fan complaining about Let's GO) are extremely demanding, and would riot if we went 3+ years without a single Pokémon release. In addition to this, it's been noted more than once that Game Freak has always preferred a slower pace when it comes to progress, because doing so allows them more time to learn, grow, and experiment, and always gives players something new to look forward to in the next installment.

Bolt the Cat, like so many others, got their hopes way too high, and now they're all crashing down. It's their fault and theirs alone for expecting something no one said would ever happen.

Problem is that, like it or not, Game Freak is in a competitive, capitalist market, and when everyone else is at 100 and Game Freak is at 10, they need to make that jump to really compete. It's not the fans' fault for having high expectations if the rest of the industry can meet those expectations, it's Game Freak's fault for being ill-prepared to rise to the level of their competition. Game Freak's development practices simply don't work in the console environment, and they're going to find that out very quickly if they haven't figured it out already. Remaining a tiny developer with 100ish employees working under 1-3 year development schedules simply isn't enough to release a satisfying console game.

The humans in Pokemon aren't the ones doing the heavy work (the player character walks and the NPCs talk, for the most part). Their models don't need to be incredibly detailed, which is not to say that I like them.

And the Pokemon models are any better?

It's a remake, so that is only half true.

Even remakes are expected to look and feel like they belong on the consoles they're designed for. Maybe remasteres can get away with being similar because they're basically just prettied up versions of the original artstyle, but not a remake.

I am just not sure where you're going with this. The features I listed are hardly easy to miss, and their worth is entirely subjective. I personally find the games overpriced, but you should accept that many people are happy with the content. Otherwise the games wouldn't have sold over 3 million units in 3 days.

To me, LGPE have more worth than the other big Switch games, even though it's clear that the latter had longer development cycles and more staff. Opinions don't follow a laundry list.

Well this is what I was saying earlier. When it comes to the quantity of content, their worth is not subjective. A game that lasts 20 hours is worth more than a game that lasts 10 hours. The things that they added don't really take much time, whereas the things that they removed are things you could spend a lot of time on. That's not something people should be happy about, least not in a console environment which tends to appeal more towards people who like sitting down with a game for hours. Nintendo explains the difference between handheld gaming and console gaming pretty well in this interview (albeit they're talking about the reverse, going from console to handheld, but it still shows what the mentality is between the two):

Hayashida
Yes, it was. So there was a lot I didn't understand. For example, you can walk around with a handheld system, so some people can play on the train when you commute. I live a few stations away from the station nearest from my home to the company's, so at first I thought I should aim for light courses that you could clear in about that time and stop playing whenever you got off the train.

Iwata
That's a big difference with the Super Mario Galaxy series.

Hayashida
Yes. To me, Super Mario Galaxy 2 is like the Manchu Han Imperial Feast. (Editor's Note: Manchu Han Imperial Feast refers to one of the grandest feasts in Chinese cuisine history, a full dinner course of which is supposed to be continuously served to the guests by spending two or three days in a row. Mr. Hayashida is figuratively using this term to describe something with great volume that is luxurious in both quality and quantity.)

Iwata
Uh-huh. (laughs)

Hayashida
It's the kind of game that says, "There's all this laid out before you, so eat whatever you want!" To eat it all takes hours, so when you finish eating, your stomach is full. We put in everything that had built up since Super Mario Sunshine and made Super Mario Galaxy 2 to be a game that has everything.

Iwata
You put in more each time and it rapidly grew until it was a luxurious item. But that raised the question of whether that was really all right for all the players.

Hayashida
Yes. So this time, I wanted to make a compact game that, rather than the Manchu Han Imperial Feast, was lighter, like a hamburger you could just gobble down. I decided to start thinking from there.

Iwata
You wanted to make a game appropriate to a handheld system.

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/super-mario-3d-land/0/0

And this is the problem with LGPE and the recent games in general. They're designing all of their games to be hamburger type games because they look at mobile and they think everyone just wants hamburgers. However, they're making the jump to a console that leans more towards Manchu Han types of games, is succeeding specifically because of Manchu Han types of games like BotW and Odyssey, and sells games at Manchu Han prices. LGPE, meanwhile, is a hamburger at a Manchu Han price and that's a poor value for both types. Hamburger types of games are usually cheap for an audience that just wants to play them for a little bit and go, whereas Manchu Han games tend to be more expensive to justify the high quality and quantity of those games. LGPE is a high price for a low effort, that's why it's seen as poor value and you see the phrase "cash grab" getting thrown around. What the haters are waiting for is for Game Freak to finally make a Manchu Han sort of experience, a game that is large and ambitious and something they could wander around in and invest tons of time into. LGPE is pretty much the opposite and the series has been heading in the opposite direction, so there's not even much optimism for the 2019 game.

 

[Kein]

Bolt, you've been spouting this mantra for 5 years now. I get that you had expectations from the series' home console debut, but the 3DS games sold very well and LGPE seem to follow ORAS' footsteps. Incidentally, they're only showing a decline in Japan, which is the one country that doesn't favor home consoles (hence the Switch's lower sales there, which explains the games' lower sales).

In terms of gameplay time, I'm pretty sure that I will be near 30 hours by the time I finish with the post-game (not including the Master Trainers and Red), but time will tell. Do I want more things that aren't grindy in nature? Sure, but looking at past games only a second region and a Battle Factory would really fill that void. I am not looking just for "quantity" if the appeal is minimal.

they need to make that jump to really compete.

That doesn't seem to be the case. And they aren't competing with Nintendo games if that's what you're implying.

And the Pokemon models are any better?

Yes. Creatures designed them, and few fans prefer the Pokken or Smash models. Maybe the crave for that level of detail will come eventually, but not yet.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

Like, I'm sick of the games talking my ear off with tutorials but this is the opposite extreme and it's leaving out crucial information on how the mechanic works.

Alright, I am now convinced you are quite literally looking for things to be upset about.

Problem is that, like it or not, Game Freak is in a competitive, capitalist market, and when everyone else is at 100 and Game Freak is at 10, they need to make that jump to really compete. It's not the fans' fault for having high expectations if the rest of the industry can meet those expectations, it's Game Freak's fault for being ill-prepared to rise to the level of their competition. Game Freak's development practices simply don't work in the console environment, and they're going to find that out very quickly if they haven't figured it out already. Remaining a tiny developer with 100ish employees working under 1-3 year development schedules simply isn't enough to release a satisfying console game.

The true fact is, like it or not, Game Freak and the Pokémon franchise are doing and will continue to do just fine, regardless of how you feel.

Pokémon and its millions of fans are moving onward. You are free to stay behind and mope.

 

[Dragalge]

Alright, I am now convinced you are quite literally looking for things to be upset about.

I fail to see how. Too much handholding/tutorials is bad but just leaving out too much info on what to do is also just as horrible. You got to give the player some idea on what the hell to do in a video game.

The true fact is, like it or not, Game Freak and the Pokémon franchise are doing and will continue to do just fine, regardless of how you feel.

Pokémon and its millions of fans are moving onward. You are free to stay behind and mope.

People can still criticize anything regardless if a game is selling well. ._.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

I fail to see how.

Because he spent all this time complaining about how easy the game is (without playing it), and now wants to complain that it's too hard. There is no pleasing him.

Also, the game explains mechanics the same way all other Pokémon games do: Talk to the NPCs.

People can still criticize anything regardless if a game is selling well. ._.

Yes, they totally can. By themselves.

While everyone else is off enjoying the game.

NOTE: I'm not saying criticism is bad. I do it all the time. I'm saying at this point, this obscene degree of criticism, especially when one's experience with the game is very little if any, is pointless. They're just fruitlessly exhibiting their right to have an opinion.

 

[Ariki]

The catching mechanic isn’t that hard to figure out, either. You take aim, and throw. Or you play in handheld mode and throw the ball.

Doesn’t really need a tutorial...

 

[Mega Altaria]

The catching mechanic isn’t that hard to figure out, either. You take aim, and throw. Or you play in handheld mode and throw the ball.

Doesn’t really need a tutorial...

Well anyone who has watched the trailers or have played Pokémon GO should already have that figured out. I don't see anyone who have experienced either of these experiences being unable to figure that out.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

Look, I'm not gonna beat around the bush, here. I feel the same way about Mortal Kombat X as many of you do about Pokémon Let's GO.

Even though I enjoyed the game, I feel MKX was massive step in the wrong direction, was an all-time low for Netherrealm Studios, and is hands down the worst game in the entire Mortal Kombat franchise. HOWEVER, I also knew all those years ago that constantly going on about the game was a waste of time. The game was selling, and fans were loving it. I had to face the fact that maybe Mortal Kombat, a franchise that I've loved since I was as a child, was no longer for me. So I stepped aside and left it alone. Maybe the next MK title will be better.

That is what you all should be doing. Not beating a dead horse with your prideful rhetoric that goes absolutely nowhere, but accepting reality as it is. Leave it be, and just hope for the best with the next title.