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Thoughts on the Upcoming Pokemon Switch Game?

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Say it's possibility if you want, I won't deny that, but there's no reason whatsoever to be saying it's likely.

And honestly, I don't think X/Y's and Sun/Moon's problems had anything to do with time or resource constraints. Game Freak has made it clear that it was their goal during those games to provide a more simple experience. The lack of content, for better or worse, was purposeful. We have no clear reason to think that Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee will cut into development time and resources for the 2019 games. Also, we have no idea how long they've been working on the 2019 games for. It seems pretty clear to me that the Let's Go games were, at least in part, made as a way to buy them more time to develop those games. There's just no reason to worry yet. Maybe things will turn out horribly, but we just can't predict that now.

Development patterns from other devs plus Game Freak's inexperience with console development. That's what makes it likely. 3D console games are notoriously time and resource intensive to develop for, doubly so in HD. This is well documented. For comparison, here are some of the other open world games and how long their developments took:

BotW: 5 years
Skyrim: 3 years
Mario Odyssey: 4 years
Xenoblade Chronicles: 3 years
Xenoblade Chronicles X: 5 years
Xenoblade Chronicles 2: 3 years
Far Cry 4: 2 years
Far Cry 5: 2 years
Watch Dogs: 5 years
Watch Dogs 2: 2 years
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt: 4 years
Horizon Zero Dawn: 6 years

Some of these games do have shorter development times, but the ones that do all have larger studios than Game Freak's total staff and/or much more experience with console development. Other than that, it's 4-6 years for a larger scale game. Game Freak will probably want at least 200 employees spending 4 years on such a game to really pull this off. At present they only have 143 divided between LG and 8th gen and they're only spending 3 years on 8th gen. Not encouraging at all.
 

BlackButterfree

Well-Known Member
Development patterns from other devs plus Game Freak's inexperience with console development. That's what makes it likely. 3D console games are notoriously time and resource intensive to develop for, doubly so in HD. This is well documented. For comparison, here are some of the other open world games and how long their developments took:

BotW: 5 years
Skyrim: 3 years
Mario Odyssey: 4 years
Xenoblade Chronicles: 3 years
Xenoblade Chronicles X: 5 years
Xenoblade Chronicles 2: 3 years
Far Cry 4: 2 years
Far Cry 5: 2 years
Watch Dogs: 5 years
Watch Dogs 2: 2 years
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt: 4 years
Horizon Zero Dawn: 6 years

Some of these games do have shorter development times, but the ones that do all have larger studios than Game Freak's total staff and/or much more experience with console development. Other than that, it's 4-6 years for a larger scale game. Game Freak will probably want at least 200 employees spending 4 years on such a game to really pull this off. At present they only have 143 divided between LG and 8th gen and they're only spending 3 years on 8th gen. Not encouraging at all.

While I agree with your view 100% (there's no way ~70 people in 3 years can make a good Gen. 8), it's a bit unfair to compare Pokémon to open world games. One of the biggest complaints is how linear the worlds are and how constrictive the regions are. If they haven't changed that in 20 years, they weren't going to do so for Gen. 8. That being said, I agree that the quality is definitely going to be way lower than it should be, especially because half of the staff is focused on Let's Go Cashgrab, and judging by the trailer, they're putting all of the visual quality (at least) into that.
 

Sαpphire

Johto Champion
Both Sun and Moon and Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire were developed alongside X and Y. Arguably the emptiest, prettiest and shallowest games. Had a decent backstory (AZ's War), a respectable villain (a genocidal prince) and an amazing post-game (Emma! <3) but let's not act like having more people would've allowed for them to put more content into the games during the development time, which was confirmed to be since 2010, alongside Black 2 and White 2, meaning every single time they decide to divide the workload, one game suffers.

And now we're in a situation where Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, Let's Go Pikachu and Let's Go Eevee and Pokémon Switch were almost certainly all under development at the same time. USUM were decent like ORAS were. LGPE look amazing (for remakes) like SM did. So who do you think is the most likely to suffer? I know what my guess is.

I really doubt that Sun and Moon's development period intersected basically at all with X and Y, first of all - there's no reason to conclude that. That X and Y in turn were being developed at about the same time as B2W2, on the other hand is... fairly straightforward and to be entirely expected. One was the first of a generation, typically handled by one team; one was the latter end of the previous generation, typically handled by another. Sun and Moon, however, likely were picked up after a third version or second paired set from Kalos was scrapped, which itself likely didn't enter development until after X and Y were ready for release given that ORAS were being developed in parallel to X and Y.

And no, more people does not always equate to more (or better) content. Coming from a development perspective myself, albeit not in video games until I have a change in career, I can tell you that a huge team often just means people are left doing nothing, or too many ideas get thrown at the project and the good ones aren't even heard. It's not something that conventionally benefits from legions of people and dozens of groups - it's an art, like writing or music. There is a finite number of people that properly work together to make it a truly good experience.

Following that, I want to also point out that a lot of people seem to have been very happy with Kalos. These pretty, shallow, and allegedly empty games are the best selling on their system, the best selling of the post-DP half of the franchise, and are pretty well liked by a large number of people. As someone above noted, their intent was never to make the games challenging, or pro-level, or whatever it is that the more vocally negative sect of the fanbase claims to have wanted on whatever day they're critiquing the game.

The franchise, at its heart, tries to be about the adventure and about bringing real-life players together. Kalos did that really pretty well in the end, didn't it? Regardless, we know XY certainly wasn't a set of games developed with all that much regard or concern for any of the things for which they're traditionally criticized, like ease or lack of a post-game. That much has been made abundantly clear by the devs.

The 2019 game is most likely going to be a rushed, incomplete mess of a game.

As stated above, this is a totally unsupported conclusion.

I want to know exactly what it is everyone wants out of these people. We already know that there are multiple teams that work on different games - it's literally almost always been that way, so there's no real argument that the simple fact LGPE exists is detrimental to the development process of the 2019 titles. Those titles, in fact, will have been in development for a bare minimum of two years at the point that they're finalized, and more than that by the time they are released. We have well over a year to go and it's been nearly a year since their announcement, if we take the E3 statement about a "proper" Pokemon RPG to be referring to those games.

We know nothing about the coming titles besides the fact that LGPE are supposed to be more casual than them, more "join us!" in their orientation and purpose. That suggests that the 2019 games are... well, literally what we've gotten for the past 22 years. And nothing more or less. It doesn't suggest that they're going to keep any changes made in LGPE (and rather suggests the opposite), and it doesn't give any further information.

The 2019 games could be the "hardcore" fans' biggest dreams all wrapped up into one thing - more difficulty! a Battle Frontier! more post-game plot! a deeper and better written story! situationally appropriate facial expressions! - and we wouldn't know. They could be abysmal, horrid stains on the franchise's legacy, sure, but in the absence of proof of that the logical thing to expect is probably just the average of all the good and bad from the past seven generations (so like, Sinnoh or something, I guess).

Spending as much time as XY and SM on exponentially more intensive hardware with twice as many games in between certainly isn't doing it any favors. Looking like it'll be the same as or worse than those two.

The confusing part of this statement, in my eyes, is that you've equated XY and SM. Not to shoot down your personal opinions, but I thought SM was widely regarded as the beloved critical darling of the latest several generations, while XY was criticized for its ease. I don't think most people (besides me, actually, as I loved both) would put them too close together in quality, and I know a lot of people would love for the 2019 games to be as good as Sun and Moon.

Anyway, see above, but also note that more intensive hardware doesn't always mean its harder to develop for if the appropriate tools are acquired; there are a lot of Switch titles and ports that were developed for higher-standard hardware than the 3DS that are technologically inferior to the 3DS Pokemon games, or less complex, or just not as good regardless.

Say it's possibility if you want, I won't deny that, but there's no reason whatsoever to be saying it's likely.

And honestly, I don't think X/Y's and Sun/Moon's problems had anything to do with time or resource constraints. Game Freak has made it clear that it was their goal during those games to provide a more simple experience. The lack of content, for better or worse, was purposeful. We have no clear reason to think that Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee will cut into development time and resources for the 2019 games. Also, we have no idea how long they've been working on the 2019 games for. It seems pretty clear to me that the Let's Go games were, at least in part, made as a way to buy them more time to develop those games. There's just no reason to worry yet. Maybe things will turn ou
t horribly, but we just can't predict that now.

Yes! This!

I personally think Let's Go has been in some form of development - probably conceptual for a while rather than physical, of course - since Go was released and became a smash hit.
 

FrozTKnight

Will ORA ORA ORA you
Poorly made? No. Cheaply made? Sure looks like it with how copy/paste the entire overworld looks and the simplification of everything in the game. That qualifies as a cash grab

1) They did't copy and paste ****, because there has never been a Kanto game with the region on 3D and they had make the region again from 2D to 3D and they said it was a remake of the Yellow games so in your words since most remakes the copy paste the regions they to are considered cash grabs?

2) Simplification of mechanics does not = cash grab.

If you want a true example of a cash grab look no further than the previous game USUM, the game is pretty much the same except for a few changes to help competitive player.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Development patterns from other devs plus Game Freak's inexperience with console development. That's what makes it likely. 3D console games are notoriously time and resource intensive to develop for, doubly so in HD. This is well documented. For comparison, here are some of the other open world games and how long their developments took:

BotW: 5 years
Skyrim: 3 years
Mario Odyssey: 4 years
Xenoblade Chronicles: 3 years
Xenoblade Chronicles X: 5 years
Xenoblade Chronicles 2: 3 years
Far Cry 4: 2 years
Far Cry 5: 2 years
Watch Dogs: 5 years
Watch Dogs 2: 2 years
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt: 4 years
Horizon Zero Dawn: 6 years

Some of these games do have shorter development times, but the ones that do all have larger studios than Game Freak's total staff and/or much more experience with console development. Other than that, it's 4-6 years for a larger scale game. Game Freak will probably want at least 200 employees spending 4 years on such a game to really pull this off. At present they only have 143 divided between LG and 8th gen and they're only spending 3 years on 8th gen. Not encouraging at all.

In what way is it fair to compare Pokémon to open world games? Obviously it takes a a lot of time and resources to make open world games, but that's not what Pokémon is by a long shot. Even at their most complex, Pokémon is so much simpler than games like Breath of the Wild or Mario Odyssey.
 

Cerex

Well-Known Member
In what way is it fair to compare Pokémon to open world games? Obviously it takes a a lot of time and resources to make open world games, but that's not what Pokémon is by a long shot. Even at their most complex, Pokémon is so much simpler than games like Breath of the Wild or Mario Odyssey.
I think the point they are making is that such an open world game is what they want Gen 8 to be, and looking at comparisons if GameFreak was to make the switch, given the release window it doesn't line up seemingly with the time they have had for development.

I suspect much of this is driven by the fact that a lot of fans have made the assumption that the series core games has been held back because of the hardware limitations of the handheld console, and so we have had none expansive, fairly linear games, not because that is what GameFreak wanted, but that is all they could fit into and onto the hardware and software. I think more people are coming around to the, perhaps realization, that it was never about just the physical limitations but rather the simplicity is a pure editorial decision on the part of the development team.

U/M pushed it to the limits on the 3DS; however, I don't think even if they did have much more capacity that they would have done much more, as it is a fairly conservative company when it comes to game development, never really pushing the boundaries. With small changes here and there to the gameplay and universe as a whole.
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
The 2019 game is most likely going to be a rushed, incomplete mess of a game.

Okay, again, are you not aware that the main series games take 3 to 4 years to make?

Nothing is being neglected or rushed. This is precisely how they planned it. If you haven't figured this out by now, after all these years, you really don't understand how Game Freak works.

Sure, it's not the most sound method of practice compared to other companies, but other companies aren't able to afford to experiment like Game Freak can. This is why they do things the way they do. They have the time, resources, and most importantly, the money to take their time and dabble in different things across multiple installments. Pokémon is incredibly unique in its handle, and there will never be another franchise like it, especially in terms of business. The biggest point to it is that Game Freak, unlike everyone else in the industry, can sit back comfortably knowing any main series installment they develop will sell millions of copies. They are secure in their practice and their success.

In other words, they have no reason to rush.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
I think the point they are making is that such an open world game is what they want Gen 8 to be, and looking at comparisons if GameFreak was to make the switch, given the release window it doesn't line up seemingly with the time they have had for development.

If that really is what Bolt the Cat meant, then I would respond to them that we have no reason to expect an open world game, therefore we have no reason to hold them to the time and resource constraints of an open world game. And if we don't hold them to such standards, then we have no reason to believe the next games will be rushed, at least until we get concrete information on them.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
The problem is that console gamers expect a game totally contrary to Game Freak’s philosophy. Console gamers want a game that’s large and full of content so they can play it for hours on end, the linear casualfests Game Freak wants to make won’t be very satisfying to that market because they’re used to much more. Game Freak is going to need to change this philosophy for Pokemon to really succeed as a console game, make it accessible yes, but not forcibly limited to those that want a larger and deeper experience. The only real hope here is that Game Freak is seeing BotW’s success and being pressured by fans and the media to match that experience which should cause them to take a long hard look at their philosophy and see if that really works on console. But given that they started before BotW’s release and the clustered release I’m not sure if this game will show they’ve learned that lesson.

I’m changing ISPs and don’t have Wi-Fi so I can’t really respond to everyone but that’s the gist of what I’m trying to say.
 

Arcanineblitz

Well-Known Member
The problem is that console gamers expect a game totally contrary to Game Freak’s philosophy. Console gamers want a game that’s large and full of content so they can play it for hours on end, the linear casualfests Game Freak wants to make won’t be very satisfying to that market because they’re used to much more. Game Freak is going to need to change this philosophy for Pokemon to really succeed as a console game, make it accessible yes, but not forcibly limited to those that want a larger and deeper experience. The only real hope here is that Game Freak is seeing BotW’s success and being pressured by fans and the media to match that experience which should cause them to take a long hard look at their philosophy and see if that really works on console. But given that they started before BotW’s release and the clustered release I’m not sure if this game will show they’ve learned that lesson.

I’m changing ISPs and don’t have Wi-Fi so I can’t really respond to everyone but that’s the gist of what I’m trying to say.
Are you a marketing expert and where’s this survey that asks console players what Pokémon experience they want? This is all just based on nothing but the vocal minority screaming “I want BOTW but Pokémon!!!”. Kids (who are their main audience) don’t care and the adults raging over it are going to buy it anyway and the older returning fans will as well. I don’t get why ppl want every switch release to be an open world homogeneous game with botw that’s sounds boring af.
 

DSDark

Breeder
While I agree with your view 100% (there's no way ~70 people in 3 years can make a good Gen. 8), it's a bit unfair to compare Pokémon to open world games. One of the biggest complaints is how linear the worlds are and how constrictive the regions are. If they haven't changed that in 20 years, they weren't going to do so for Gen. 8. That being said, I agree that the quality is definitely going to be way lower than it should be, especially because half of the staff is focused on Let's Go Cashgrab, and judging by the trailer, they're putting all of the visual quality (at least) into that.

I disagree with the idea that after 20 years they aren't going to change it. Gen 8 is going to be the first new region on a home console. That in itself opens up the possibilities. Automatically you have to change how pokemon looks with the power of a console vs the handheld. It has to evolve.
 

Dragalge

"Orange" Magical Girl
Are you a marketing expert and where’s this survey that asks console players what Pokémon experience they want? This is all just based on nothing but the vocal minority screaming “I want BOTW but Pokémon!!!”. Kids (who are their main audience) don’t care and the adults raging over it are going to buy it anyway and the older returning fans will as well. I don’t get why ppl want every switch release to be an open world homogeneous game with botw that’s sounds boring af.
Tbh it’s not really much of every game being full on open world. People just want more freedom is all and that’s fine. Hell going back to how they handled the openness in Sinnoh would be fantastic since, in my opinion, it was the best at doing that compared to other regions.

And yes kids are indeed the main demographic. But it’s not like the amount of older fans are stupidly tiny either. Even they’re composed of a ton of people lol
 

Arcanineblitz

Well-Known Member
Tbh it’s not really much of every game being full on open world. People just want more freedom is all and that’s fine. Hell going back to how they handled the openness in Sinnoh would be fantastic since, in my opinion, it was the best at doing that compared to other regions.

And yes kids are indeed the main demographic. But it’s not like the amount of older fans are stupidly tiny either. Even they’re composed of a ton of people lol
Then argue about freedom instead of basing it on BOTW and yeah there are a lot of older fans nobody is saying there aren’t because we are proof of that but their intended outreach with these games and every game is 10 year olds with some extras for older fans. I would like change for the series as well but LG is not the game we should be putting those expectations on.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

*On Vacation. Go Away!*
I’m curious as to exactly how large the Pokeball Joy-Con will be. Will it be the size of a small apple or as big as a navel orange? The trailer makes it difficult to figure out as there really aren’t any objects close to it in the trailer to judge size other than the hand.
 

WhiteBlair

ベストチャンピオン。
The problem is that console gamers expect a game totally contrary to Game Freak’s philosophy. Console gamers want a game that’s large and full of content so they can play it for hours on end, the linear casualfests Game Freak wants to make won’t be very satisfying to that market because they’re used to much more. Game Freak is going to need to change this philosophy for Pokemon to really succeed as a console game, make it accessible yes, but not forcibly limited to those that want a larger and deeper experience. The only real hope here is that Game Freak is seeing BotW’s success and being pressured by fans and the media to match that experience which should cause them to take a long hard look at their philosophy and see if that really works on console. But given that they started before BotW’s release and the clustered release I’m not sure if this game will show they’ve learned that lesson.

I’m changing ISPs and don’t have Wi-Fi so I can’t really respond to everyone but that’s the gist of what I’m trying to say.
But, Zelda: BoTW ends up selling 8.48 million as of March 2018, half the number of what Pokemon mainline series sell. Since XY, fans keep complaining about the game features, yet people continue to buy them. Welcome to Pokemon franchise: the market that has its own monopoly and it survives despite all the criticism it gets on any forum boards.

From a player's perspective, I'd love to have a game that is as deep/open as BoTW, but from the producer's perspective, I know that I'm a consumer who will buy and enjoy the game anyway. The best example of it are the fans who have been complaining about the features of past two generations, but both manage to sell more than BW, the generation that introduced a lot of features; features that people wanted them to return: PWT, more Pokemon and Hard Mode.

Keeping our optimism to the levels we expect GameFreak to produce a game very similar to BoTW can result quite a disappointment. And, I don't see GF reaching to Zelda-levels when it comes to open-world, but never say never. I'm just pointing out that most of the fans, people who don't own Switch yet, newcomers and potentially a respectable number of GO players will be drawn to LGP/E without even comparing the games to Zelda and just enjoy.
 

Arcanineblitz

Well-Known Member
"Since you can have multiple accounts on one Nintendo Switch, each account can have its own save file."

Yooo that is perfect, can borrow a friends console and game now once they're done with it! Cool.
Whoa that’s awesome I can start new games over and over without buying two copies
 

Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
I’m curious as to exactly how large the Pokeball Joy-Con will be. Will it be the size of a small apple or as big as a navel orange? The trailer makes it difficult to figure out as there really aren’t any objects close to it in the trailer to judge size other than the hand.
Based off the trailer and this picture, I guess the diameter of a Poké Ball Plus is about half the length of a Joy-Con, which should be about the size of a small apple. Also the Poké Ball Plus seemed to be quite small in the hand.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

*On Vacation. Go Away!*
Based off the trailer and this picture, I guess the diameter of a Poké Ball Plus is about half the length of a Joy-Con, which should be about the size of a small apple. Also the Poké Ball Plus seemed to be quite small in the hand.
I see it now. I hope there will be a special offer that lets you get one for free if you preorder the game or at least some sort of discount. The Pokeball Joy-Con is what hooked me into preordering Eevee. I hope it also finds a use in future games as well.
 
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